The Gamma theory

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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barnabo

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The Gamma theory

Post by barnabo »

Hi, here is the "Gamma Theory", a set of suppositions about some characters I've not specially read here or elsewhere on the internet. It's highly not probable that all the suppositions about all the characters are true, but some may be true. All together, they present a consistant plot, which can explain some strange behaviour.

I must warn however that if that theory is true, especially the part about Gin, it might really spoil the end of the story, and you might regret having read this.

That said, here comes the theory:
Spoiler:
There are a lot of intelligent people in DC. Most intelligent ones are on par with Conan. It's obvious with Heiji that is Shiniji's clone, with Akai where they seems to think the same thing in the same time. It's also true with Vermouth were it seems sometime one has lead, other time, the other has lead.
But there are two people that really seems to be way above Conan/Shinichi in term of deduction. Yuusaku and Gin. they both seems to have 2 or 3 plans ahead of Conan. They are both scary guys.

When Yuusaku was first introduced, it was still like it was Conan versus BO, and Yuusaku is a busy man, so as BO is Conan's problem, it made sense at that time that Yuusaku would let him solve the mystery alone.

But it has been some BO arcs now that it's clear it's not Conan versus Gin or Conan versus BO, but it's Conan's team versus BO team (as stated by Yukiko/Vermouth in the Mystery train arc). Yuusaku would clearly have a place in Conan's team. His not involvment seems strange in fact if you take into consideration the fact that Yuuki on the other side is ALWAYS involved in BO cases. And generally he is often by Yuukiko's side when it's not BO related, but never by her side when it's BO related.

Any way, I think Gamma theory beeing true or not, Yuusaku is involved in a way or another in this, pulling the strings from behind the scene, and he will appear in the last BO arc.

"There is nothing like a silver bullet that can destroy the whole organisation in one shot". That's typically something that a silver bullet would say.

Gin ? A silver bullet that wants to destroy the organisation ? And what if Gin is... Yuusaku ?

Ok, that's crazy and that doesn't even make sense... until you analyse this fact by fact.

Ok, so why Yuusaku/Gin would destroy the BO, he's the most loyal servant. Well, no one even said that Gin was a loyal servant of the BO, we all assumed it because of his actions. But if he's infiltrating the BO, he won't come and says "hey, look at me, I'm the suspicious guy !". Of course not.

And as the Boss beeing cautious and suspicious (otherwise Yuusaku would have stopped the Boss long time ago), it's probable that Anokata doesn't trust Gin (We all assumed that Gin being that cold hearted, the Boss would trust him, but can you find me a concrete proof that the boss trust Gin ?), and Vodka would be someone put on Gin's side to spy Gin and report his actions to the Boss.

Ok, so why would Yuusaku/Gin try to kill his own son ? That doesn't make any sense ? Well, it doesn't make any sense if the drug would have killed him, but if Yuusaku/Gin knew the drug would have only shrunk him, he's clearly the kind of father that would do it to make a new powerfull pawn enter the checkboard : Conan.

Well, how would he know ? Shiho wouldn't even have predicted it. Well, what if the drug wasn't made by Shiho but by Elena and/or Atsuhi Miyano.

Somehting happened to the Miyanos some years ago. We don't know what, they are assumed dead but we don't even know it exactly. What if they went in contact with Yuusaku, something like 10 years ago (that can be another time). For example, they tryed to escape the organisation by leaving a crypted message somewhere that only Yuusaku was able to decrypt and understand. Then he decided to make them disapered by leaving them dead, but he couldn't do it for the children, Akemi and Shiho. He then entered the BO as Gin to help the children evade and to take down the BO.

So in the attraction park, Yuusaku/Gin gave Shinichi a drug he knew woulnd't kill him but only reduce him (in the size that Yukiko would love to see but that wasn't the goal) made by the Miyanos (or only Elena or only Atsushi ? We still haven't any clue on their relations).

All the speech about killing him with a new drug was directed to Vodka in order to make a decent story for Anokata.

So now you can reread every BO related chapter, and you'll see another story. That someown make sense ! Gin tracking down conan hidden in a locker until he reached the right locker and then said "that can't be, an adult can be hidden here" make perfect sense ! It's just Yuusaku trolling his son like he always does, while being pro and even over-pro to the Vodka eyes.

So Akemi would not have been killed, but rather "freed from the organisation". Yuusaku/Gin just tricked both Vodka (easy) and Conan (well, if someone can do it, it's clearly Yuusaku) into beleving she was dead.

Did you notice that Gin rarely kills despite being so "Cold" ? You can see it as him not wanting to do unnecessary things, or as him being Yuusaku.

Yuusaku and Gin both have "attributes" on their faces. Yuusaku have glasses and mustache and Gin have a turtleneck sweater, a hat and long hairs. They all mask different parts of the face. Moreover, the turtleneck sweater is the perfect place to hide a voice changer made by Agasa Akase. Yes that old racoon would be an accomplice as the Yuusaku's Watson it has always been. (Him beeing Atsushi Miyano is nice, but perhaps a bit too much and doesn't fit with the Fusae part, even if you consider Fusae beeing Elena)

Imagine what could happened in the future... It's the last BO arc. Conan's team have the upper hand. As always Yuukiko is involved. Gin is about to get trapped somewhere. Anokata is around somewhere, it's just a matter of time that Anokata will reveal himself/herself. And then, Yuukiko is suddenly betraying Conan's team to side up with Gin. Everyone is shocked, from Conan to Vermouth and Vodka... End of chapter... You have to wait to the next week to have the following chapter. Wouldn't that be cool ?

Yes except you'll hate me "Ho, I shouldn't have read that Gamma Theory!", but hey, you've been warned !

Ok so that all for today for Gin. And now, if Yuusaku is already deeply involved with the BO case, does the ICPO (Interpol) officer that Yuusaku evoked in his introduction case real and already involved too ?

Well... If the 2nd best student of the police academy gets to go the to prestigious First Division of Tokyo Metropolitan police, where would the 1st best student gets to go ?

Wataru Date was the archetype of the good guy/good cop dying in duty. And that guy had some kind of respect for Amuro. Moreover, that respect seems to be mutual (Amuro keeping a text message from a police officer he respect while being in the BO is not a small detail). I think you should somehow not overlook that respect.

So if Bourbon/Amuro is ICPO officer inflitrating the BO, that would give a decent end to the on going "Hey, don't you think Bourbon know too much about Conan/Ai/Agasa/etc. ?"

Well, that would make a lot of people inflitrating the BO, but the "too much people inflitrating the BO" was already reach when it was revealed that FBI *and* CIA were doing it. The Gamma theory doesn't include yet the Mossad, MI5 or DGSE.

Ok, so who is Anokata ?

Well, compared to other character, Anokata is not that much of a new theory. The best suspect would be Yoko Okino. Most of it has already been said - especially by the Texas[dontremeber]girl dug up recently by Chekhov, I won't really insist except two points :
- DC beeing originally targeted to be "few month" long means 10/30 chapter. It's very very short. You can't introcude many complexity in it. The sotry in terms of characters interactions should be quite simple. I don't beleive Yoko Okino was Vermouth's initial prototype (like Chekhov thinks) because Vermouth wasn't planned in the beggining. I think she was introduce to make the story longer.
- And none of the arguments I read about Yoko Okino beeing anokata was the original one that make me point out her in the first place.

This is how I first thought of Yoko Okino : I was wondering what kind of character would be Anokata if he/she was already introduced ? Of course it would be someone you would expect. But DC always has that kind of "moral" issues I can't really describe, but I don't expcet a "very good guy" beeing Anokata. By "very good guy" I mean someone that the reader (and for anime the watcher) would emotionnaly involved with him/her. So I don't except Ran or Agasa, I don't expect Eri neither because she is deeply/emotionnaly involved with Ran.

I don't expect neither a bad guy beeing Anokata, because it wouln't be that much a surprise... "Ho, Anokata is Vodka ? Ok... Well, I waited 20 years for that..."

So I was expected someone like "in between". A neutral character nice, but not too much emotionnaly involved with the main protagonists. And there is not "that much characters" in the manga. Azusa Enomoto would fit the bill for example (at least when I first though about that, she is more and more involed nowadays with Amuro being with her). But she was introduce quite late, first in the anime (1999), named after her voice actress, and then put back in canon story in 2003.

But Yoko Okino is the best candidate in that regard. For example, she is always nice and polite, but Ran never gets close to her despite being several times together. If Ran doesn't worship her as an idol, she does not either dislike her (for beeing a concurrent of Eri for example). They just have a nice and polite relation not more, not less.

So Yoko Okino being a bad woman would be surprising for Ran or Conan, but not heart breaking.

The only one emotionnaly involved with her is... The "dumb Kogoro". I precise the dump kogoro because he always those two faces. The "dumb Kogoro" and the "serious Kogoro". The "dumb Kogoro" can drink too much and be drunk, a case murder happens (or Ran beeing in danger) and the "serious Kogoro" appears. So it's only the involvement of a fool.

That's all for Yoko Okino, every other details has been said elsewhere.

Speaking of Kogoro now. That two faces kogoro... Remember Chap 163/165 ? The scuba diving case. The dumb kogoro was fooling around in sand with women (or appears as he was) while in fact the serious kogoro was looking for Eri's ring in the sand. In general the Eri's cases show us a Kogoro that can do much more that he appears to be doing, and that don't like to gets the credits of his exploits. The exact opposite of the usual dumb Kogoro...

What if THAT Kogoro is the real Kogoro ?

The real Kogoro would be like that : Someone that is quite competent (perhaps a bit slower that Conan, but not espacially that much dumber than him), but that really don't like to get the praise for it. As a police officer, he would have solved the mystery, and then let others find the solution letting them take the praise for it (because that's how he is), letting Megure thinks he's a good for nothing police officer.

That would fit the actions in Eri's related stories, it would also fit Megure's opinion of "old kogoro".

Everything changed when Conan came and "revesed" the roles. Shinichi IS the bragging detective kind ! But he can't brag anymore due to the circonstances. And he's forcing Kogoro to take that role that he don't like (and he's probably uneasy with it).

By the way, if Kogoro always fakes his dumb Kogoro personnality, that means he perfectly knows know Conan is. Chapter 10 "I feel like I've seen you before" "Must be around the time Ran was in grade school" (p 18). Chapter 11 "Wait he's done this before too..." "Whenever I've been stuck... He always gives some kind of hint..." (p 13). Just after that Conan act stupid and he thinks "No way"... But at the end of that story Chapter 12 "But what's really interesting is what he said afterwards... 'I was beaten by a Kid!!' and skeaking of kids nearby..." (he is looking at Conan) "No way..." (this time, it's Ran saying No Way, not Kogoro)

After that, he never ever suspect Conan anymore of anything.

Ok, that must be because it was the start of DC, at that time Gosho didn't know how to position Kogoro yet, and he made him a bit smarter than he is now... Yes, it can be, or it can be that he has always been smart.

With everything in mind, in the context of the whole Gamma Theory, Kogoro being smart, Okino beeing Anokata, and the Dumb Kogoro beeing stupidly fan of Okino would be a hint to the fact that Kogoro might have already been investingating the BO, pin up Okino as highly suspicious but have no proof (as probably Yuusaku) in order to be able to arrest her and her organisation.

Why in the first place did Kogoro stopped being a police officer 10 years ago ?

It hasn't been revealed yet. The movie (ok non canon!) about this provide an explaination about why Kogoro quit police, and why Kogoro and Eri don't live together, but it hasn't been confirmed.The conclusion of the movie was that Ran beeing in the same situation clearly understood why kogoro has shoot Eri that time, so Eri no beeing stupide would have clearly understood it the same way, and so it's NOT the reason why they don't live together. Back to square one, that movie like every other movie doesn't make the main story avance even a bit.

What if the reason why Kogoro stopped being a police officer 10 years ago was to start investigating the BO ? Perhaps with the help of Yuusaku, or being manipulated by Yuusaku.

The relation between Yuusaku and Kogoro seems (Yuusaku's cold case) to be very cold, at least from Kogoro's side. But keep in mind that it's EXACTLY the kind of cold and arogant speak he reserve to Eri. And we all know how he really feels about Eri. So Yuusaku and Kogoro may be like brothers.

Speaking of brothers, if Agasa is Watson's Yuusaku-Holmes, that would make Kogoro-as-a-brother Yuusaku's Mycroft, the one who is smarter that Holmes but lazier and thus seems dumber.

I must confess that the Kogoro not beeing what it look doesn't really fit with recent chapters like 855. Anyway, some points in the Gamma theory may be true without the others. (For example only Gin=Yuusaku, or Bourbon=ICPO/Interpol)
Quite a long text, I would really want to see what experts (like Chekhov for example but also others) think of that (those!) theory(ies).

I hope it's not unreadable, English isn't my native's language and I'm not used to write such long text in English.
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dcfan01
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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by dcfan01 »

About Yuusaku being Gin:
1- ch1 p23: Shinichi describes Gin's eyes as "The eyes of someone who could kill countless numbers of people without feeling a thing".

2- ch504 p13: Shuuichi shots Gin managing to leave a scar on his face, proving that he wasn't wearing a mask..
Also, Gin directed the investigation to Kogoro and ordered to kill him.. he had no way to know that conan or shuuichi would appear at the last second, and he would have no excuse once the countdown got to zero.

About Bourbon being Interpol: well everything is possible.. but he wasn't very touched when he "saw" sherry die..
Anyway, there are still a lot of his actions that don't make sense, so I will keep my judgement for later.

About Kogoro, I like to think that he might be acting Columbo-style, but I really doubt that.. Also, I'm sure that if I search a little, I will find some life or dead situation that he wasn't able to solve, and had to be finally done by conan..
barnabo

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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by barnabo »

dcfan01 wrote:About Yuusaku being Gin:
1- ch1 p23: Shinichi describes Gin's eyes as "The eyes of someone who could kill countless numbers of people without feeling a thing".
Shinichi beeing fooled by his father wouldn't be the first time...
dcfan01 wrote:2- ch504 p13: Shuuichi shots Gin managing to leave a scar on his face, proving that he wasn't wearing a mask..
Also, Gin directed the investigation to Kogoro and ordered to kill him.. he had no way to know that conan or shuuichi would appear at the last second, and he would have no excuse once the countdown got to zero.
He could have foresaw their actions. Foreseeing actions seems to be a bit too much in DC in general. But I understand that using that argument can used everytime to explain everything about Yuusaku because he's above everybody in reasoning. That's why I keep an eye looking threw that theory, and an eye looking Gin has a powerfull enemy.

But such (that one or another of that category) ending would be awesome in the sense that you could reread everything BO related, and it will take another sense !
dcfan01 wrote:About Kogoro, I like to think that he might be acting Columbo-style, but I really doubt that.. Also, I'm sure that if I search a little, I will find some life or dead situation that he wasn't able to solve, and had to be finally done by conan..
Not the part that look the most credible, but that would make a cool ending with Kogoro sermoning Shinichi about how the "bragging detective kid has yet to learn some modesty"...
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

As a whole, the evidential for support for the conclusions drawn is sorely lacking. Especially toward the end of the theory with the Kogoro and boss stuff, the what-ifs are really only useful if they circle back to prove that the original supposition was reasonable to make and likely to be true.
barnabo wrote:But there are two people that really seems to be way above Conan/Shinichi in term of deduction. Yuusaku and Gin. they both seems to have 2 or 3 plans ahead of Conan. They are both scary guys.
I wouldn't rank Gin above Shinichi in terms of intelligence. When Hidemi was returned to the Org and Shuuichi's death faked, Gin's actions were predicted several steps in advance by Conan, Shuuichi, and Hidemi. Gin is good, but I would place him at Shuuichi's level rather than above Shinichi, and I'd place Shinichi above Shuuichi because Conan managed to outthink Akai in Red vs. Black in the Rikumichi chaos.
Rena used psychological traps to trick Gin into overlooking that she and Akai could have predicted enough details of the assassination plan to concoct a trick. Rena manipulates her conversations with Gin by suggesting possible courses of action and making requests which she already knows will definitely be rejected by him. These rejected requests subconsciously manipulate Gin into falsely assuming that Rena had wanted or planned on having things as she requested and had not anticipated his demands. The result is that Gin fallaciously believes that he was in control and Rena could not have plotted anything in advance.
The psychological trap was used when Gin told Rena how she was going to kill Akai. Rena suggested alternate options like Gin and company would surround Akai to shoot him, and that she would like some extra time to prepare - both requests Gin denied.

Additionally, Rena and Akai planned another psychological trap for Gin with the placement of the gunshots. Rena and Akai decided to pick a fatal- but not quickly so- lung shot for the site of the first "shot". Rena will then say "that's good enough, he will die quickly anyway", but Gin will be sure to object and order her to finish him in the head where it's certain. Rena will then deliver the coup de grâce that Gin ordered. Of course, Rena and Akai knew in advance Gin would ask for a headshot in these circumstances because Gin would not want to leave anything up to chance. The trap is forcing Gin ask for the shot specifically by himself because it is hard to escape from the fallacious thought that "this couldn't be planned in advance because I alone specifically asked Kir to shoot Akai in the head with no forewarning."
barnabo wrote:When Yuusaku was first introduced, it was still like it was Conan versus BO, and Yuusaku is a busy man, so as BO is Conan's problem, it made sense at that time that Yuusaku would let him solve the mystery alone.

But it has been some BO arcs now that it's clear it's not Conan versus Gin or Conan versus BO, but it's Conan's team versus BO team (as stated by Yukiko/Vermouth in the Mystery train arc). Yuusaku would clearly have a place in Conan's team. His not involvment seems strange in fact if you take into consideration the fact that Yuuki on the other side is ALWAYS involved in BO cases. And generally he is often by Yuukiko's side when it's not BO related, but never by her side when it's BO related.
The reason why Yuusaku is left out is because he is an overpowered character. Since his inception, Mr. Kudo has always been depicted as better than Shinichi. The protagonist of the manga is Conan, not his father, so his father showing up all the time would take the spotlight away from where it is supposed to be. Conan needs to beat the Black Organization, not his dad. It's the same reason why in fighting magical teenage boy mangas the master always sits by the sidelines or never shows up on time while the less skilled protagonist takes on challenging opponents. Having an overpowered ally take the opponent away from the underdog hero and steamroll him is something that can only be done rarely, or otherwise people get sick of it. Kudo Yuusaku is like a spice; he adds flavor by taking Shinichi down a notch from time to time, but is best used sparingly. That's why Gosho always has in-universe excuses to keep Yuusaku away from the action, like he is busy writing/escaping from publishers, or traveling the world. Yukiko, who is not overpowered like her husband, can show up more frequently without stealing the spotlight especially since she has a gimmick talent: the disguise artist.
barnabo wrote: "There is nothing like a silver bullet that can destroy the whole organisation in one shot". That's typically something that a silver bullet would say.

Gin ? A silver bullet that wants to destroy the organisation ? And what if Gin is... Yuusaku ?
I really don't see the logic that supports the theory "Gin says no person can down the BO" "Gin is a silver bullet and might want to destroy the BO himself"
My read of the statement is that despite what Vermouth and the boss think, Gin doesn't believe a silver bullet – a person who can take down the Organization in one shot – really exists. It's a statement of assured (and perhaps arrogant) superiority on his part. It's pretty plain English, so I can't see any way to support the existence of a hidden meaning like Gin wants to be the silver bullet himself.

For the part of the theory that Gin is Yuusaku, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Words are the weakest evidence in DC I have found. Actions are the strongest sources. Gin ordered Chianti and Korn to kill Conan back in Org vs. FBI, and there were too many unknowns to predict that Conan was going to be saved – even Conan didn't expect it. Without any way to listen to the FBI's convos on where Shuuichi was or wasn't, there was no way to predict where he would be with certainty. Furthermore Gin/Yuusaku could have avoided targeting Conan at all by pretending to remain ignorant of the source of the static. Why threaten his own son? It just doesn't add up for what we have seen of Yuusaku's character.
barnabo wrote: Well, no one even said that Gin was a loyal servant of the BO, we all assumed it because of his actions. But if he's infiltrating the BO, he won't come and says "hey, look at me, I'm the suspicious guy !". Of course not.
It's not easy to simply accept the unsourced proposition that Gin isn't a loyal servant when there is evidence that he does follow the boss's orders most of the time to the spirit of the order. If you are challenging the default, you are going to have to prove Gin is not loyal.
barnabo wrote:But can you find me a concrete proof that the boss trust Gin?
Gin is codenamed and an executive agent on top of it – one the FBI thought could lead them to the boss because he was that close. Gin is also in the oversight division, which means he is the right hand of the boss when it comes to quality control and dishing out punishments. When Gin was given the task to eliminate Pisco, and the boss contacted Gin directly to give the order. The boss contacted Gin and told him that he was sick of Vermouth's antics and to watch her – meaning that when it comes to dealing with problems from the favorite operative of the boss, the boss turns to Gin. Gin designed and administered Kir's loyalty test twice, once for Domon's assassination and again for making sure she killed Shuuichi to his and the boss's satisfaction.
barnabo wrote:Ok, so why would Yuusaku/Gin try to kill his own son ? That doesn't make any sense ? Well, it doesn't make any sense if the drug would have killed him, but if Yuusaku/Gin knew the drug would have only shrunk him, he's clearly the kind of father that would do it to make a new powerfull pawn enter the checkboard : Conan.
If this was Yuusaku's plan, why use a drug with a fatality rate of all but one mouse on him, hoping that shrinking was definitely going to happen?
barnabo wrote:Well, how would he know ? Shiho wouldn't even have predicted it. Well, what if the drug wasn't made by Shiho but by Elena and/or Atsuhi Miyano.
What's the proof their drug worked, especially since Shiho seems to have taken up their project? If their project was a success to the point where the boss could trust it to work on certain people, then why is Shiho's research even necessary?
barnabo wrote: What if they went in contact with Yuusaku, something like 10 years ago (that can be another time). For example, they tryed to escape the organisation by leaving a crypted message somewhere that only Yuusaku was able to decrypt and understand. Then he decided to make them disapered by leaving them dead, but he couldn't do it for the children, Akemi and Shiho. He then entered the BO as Gin to help the children evade and to take down the BO.
An interesting speculation, but no proof to back it.
barnabo wrote: So now you can reread every BO related chapter, and you'll see another story. That someown make sense ! Gin tracking down conan hidden in a locker until he reached the right locker and then said "that can't be, an adult can be hidden here" make perfect sense ! It's just Yuusaku trolling his son like he always does, while being pro and even over-pro to the Vodka eyes.
I honestly think this scene is supposed to showcase Gin's weakness: he doesn't like to leave his conventional logic comfort zone. First grade children fighting the Organization is a ridiculous idea, so he must have made some error in his assumptions and come to the wrong conclusion. He didn't ponder the suspicious kid who distracted the snipers at Kogoro's agency and tied him with the one Vodka mentioned at the locker scene, or the one from the shinkansen. He can't figure out how Sherry could escape the sealed room, even though there was a child-sized trash chute (a child might have climbed up it with a key for the handcuffs and room). If Gin was really paying attention, he would notice the recurrence of Black Organization cases that went bad involving children or things children could take advantage of. He won't conclude this though until the theory slaps him in the face twice and steals his hat because Gin doesn't like to think that way.
barnabo wrote:Did you notice that Gin rarely kills despite being so "Cold" ? You can see it as him not wanting to do unnecessary things, or as him being Yuusaku.
I like your first explanation. Killing draws attention. It's better to avoid it when possible and be sneaky.
barnabo wrote:Ok so that all for today for Gin. And now, if Yuusaku is already deeply involved with the BO case, does the ICPO (Interpol) officer that Yuusaku evoked in his introduction case real and already involved too ?
So far there doesn't seem to be any evidence for other groups involved like was the case when the FBI and CIA were hinted.
barnabo wrote:So if Bourbon/Amuro is ICPO officer inflitrating the BO, that would give a decent end to the on going "Hey, don't you think Bourbon know too much about Conan/Ai/Agasa/etc. ?"
Bourbon seems to learn info about them as he encounters it, unlike Masumi who seems to have done research ahead of time because she knew what is really going on – Conan is Shinichi shrunk. Bourbon knows relatively little about Ai and Agasa and Conan at the start, and still knows little about Ai and Agasa even now. Bourbon's progress is reasonable for what he has heard IMO; it might be even a little slow instead of "too much". More specifically, Bourbon seems to be on the sort of the path Shuuichi, Jodie, and the FBI kind of were on, slowly picking up info on the periphery about Conan and working inward towards the core mysteries, instead of starting knowing the core mystery like Eisuke and Sera and working outward from there.
barnabo wrote: But Yoko Okino is the best candidate in that regard.
Yoko introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. Even if the boss was sure of his/her own ability to fool others, the boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.
If Yoko was the boss, she should be smart, yet she failed to identify who was stalking and harassing her (that's what she originally went to Kogoro's office for) and deal with them. If she had taken appropriate measures she could have avoided bringing police and a detective to her home.

I also never understood what was "gamma" about the gamma theory, but that is neither here nor there.
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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by barnabo »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:As a whole, the evidential for support for the conclusions drawn is sorely lacking. Especially toward the end of the theory with the Kogoro and boss stuff, the what-ifs are really only useful if they circle back to prove that the original supposition was reasonable to make and likely to be true.
Yes, that theory lacks proof. On the other hand, while I expect some proof hidden within the story for most mysteries, I don't except it for something of that magnitude (at least for the Gin=Yuusaku part). I only expect that the story would not be incompatible with the theory until the truth would be revealed.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote:[...] they both seems to have 2 or 3 plans ahead of Conan. They are both scary guys.
I wouldn't rank Gin above Shinichi in terms of intelligence. When Hidemi was returned to the Org and Shuuichi's death faked, Gin's actions were predicted several steps in advance by Conan, Shuuichi, and Hidemi. Gin is good, but I would place him at Shuuichi's level rather than above Shinichi, and I'd place Shinichi above Shuuichi because Conan managed to outthink Akai in Red vs. Black in the Rikumichi chaos.
True... Saying that Gin seems to overpower Conan was too much. What I wanted to say was there are cases where Gin seems to overpower Conan in term of reflexion.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: The reason why Yuusaku is left out is because he is an overpowered character.
I totally agree with that from a narrative point of view. What bugs me is not the fact that he's not helping Conan on the BO cases, it's the accumulation of facts :

- When it's not BO related, Yuukiko and Yuusaku are often together.
- When it's a BO "confrontation" chapter/episode, Yuukiko seems to always be here, popping up at the last time. Always popping up at the last time.

The whole look like an emphasis on the fact that Yuusaku is never part of the BO cases.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote: "There is nothing like a silver bullet that can destroy the whole organisation in one shot". That's typically something that a silver bullet would say.

Gin ? A silver bullet that wants to destroy the organisation ? And what if Gin is... Yuusaku ?
I really don't see the logic that supports the theory "Gin says no person can down the BO" "Gin is a silver bullet and might want to destroy the BO himself"
Sorry about that, my goal wasn't to use the sentence as a proof that Gin would be a silver bullet, just to show how ironic that would be if he was...
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote:Ok, so why would Yuusaku/Gin try to kill his own son ? That doesn't make any sense ? Well, it doesn't make any sense if the drug would have killed him, but if Yuusaku/Gin knew the drug would have only shrunk him, he's clearly the kind of father that would do it to make a new powerfull pawn enter the checkboard : Conan.
If this was Yuusaku's plan, why use a drug with a fatality rate of all but one mouse on him, hoping that shrinking was definitely going to happen?
Of course, if he has done that, that's only if he's 100% sure that it would shrink him (cf: the later explanation).
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote:Well, how would he know ? Shiho wouldn't even have predicted it. Well, what if the drug wasn't made by Shiho but by Elena and/or Atsuhi Miyano.
What's the proof their drug worked, especially since Shiho seems to have taken up their project? If their project was a success to the point where the boss could trust it to work on certain people, then why is Shiho's research even necessary?
The drug he was using (in that hypothesis) wouldn't have been made while Elena/Atsuhi were within the organisation, but after. So the BO (nor Shiho) doesn't know that such a drug exists.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote: What if they went in contact with Yuusaku, something like 10 years ago (that can be another time). For example, they tryed to escape the organisation by leaving a crypted message somewhere that only Yuusaku was able to decrypt and understand. Then he decided to make them disapered by leaving them dead, but he couldn't do it for the children, Akemi and Shiho. He then entered the BO as Gin to help the children evade and to take down the BO.
An interesting speculation, but no proof to back it.
Yes, I don't have proof for that.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote:Ok so that all for today for Gin. And now, if Yuusaku is already deeply involved with the BO case, does the ICPO (Interpol) officer that Yuusaku evoked in his introduction case real and already involved too ?
So far there doesn't seem to be any evidence for other groups involved like was the case when the FBI and CIA were hinted.
barnabo wrote:So if Bourbon/Amuro is ICPO officer inflitrating the BO, that would give a decent end to the on going "Hey, don't you think Bourbon know too much about Conan/Ai/Agasa/etc. ?"
Bourbon seems to learn info about them as he encounters it, unlike Masumi who seems to have done research ahead of time because she knew what is really going on – Conan is Shinichi shrunk. Bourbon knows relatively little about Ai and Agasa and Conan at the start, and still knows little about Ai and Agasa even now. Bourbon's progress is reasonable for what he has heard IMO; it might be even a little slow instead of "too much". More specifically, Bourbon seems to be on the sort of the path Shuuichi, Jodie, and the FBI kind of were on, slowly picking up info on the periphery about Conan and working inward towards the core mysteries, instead of starting knowing the core mystery like Eisuke and Sera and working outward from there.
Clearly, if Bourbon is ICPO (or police in general) related, I don't except him to be aware of Conan=Shinichi beforehand, even if has infiltrated the organization at the request of Yuusaku.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
barnabo wrote: But Yoko Okino is the best candidate in that regard.
Yoko introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. Even if the boss was sure of his/her own ability to fool others, the boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.
If Yoko was the boss, she should be smart, yet she failed to identify who was stalking and harassing her (that's what she originally went to Kogoro's office for) and deal with them. If she had taken appropriate measures she could have avoided bringing police and a detective to her home.
Clearly here, if Yoko is the Boss, she don't care about Mizunashi's stalker at all, she has another motive to do that, either because she wants to test the reaction of Mizunashi if she's with Kogoro, either she wants to test Kogoro in some sort.

For the first meeting between Kogoro and Yoko, if Yoko is the Boss, she would have bugged her appartement and knew there was a corpse there before getting back home, she wouldn't went to Kogoro's office to really find who was stalking her, but to have someone discovering the corpse and finding the truth.

There is no special meaning to the name "Gamma". I just happen to like to name things to easily be able refer to them later. And names doesn't always carries meanings. Don't look for a meaning in everything I say, I "would have put that loaded gun on the wall anyway".
Patrick

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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by Patrick »

As stated above I think we lack proof, but I personally don't subscribe to this theory.
Yes, it could be one explanation to Yuusaku's actions, but it's not the only explanation (him being far too good to appear in the series too often being the other). Therefore, when you say "if you re-read all the BO cases considering Yuusaku=Gin it all makes sense!", this means you're using your theory to suit facts and not the other way around. So be careful doing this, because assuming something and then revisiting the facts doesn't prove the assumption is valid.

1) Yuusaku outsmarts everyone so far--> Solid, we haven't seen anyone smarter than him as of yet.
2) The whereabouts of Yuusaku during a BO case are unknown --> Solid
3) Yuusaku = Gin because 1) & 2) --> Not solid, because there could be other explanations.

Hence, when reading all the BO cases again under the premise 3), it doesn't justify anything because 3 isn't solid to begin with.
It's just like math (I'm studying math in college at the moment), you can prove a theorem under certain hypothesis, but later on you can only apply such theorem if the hypothesis are met. Otherwise, the theorem doesn't guarantee any result.

In other words:
Facts, facts, facts ---> Theory that matches everything is an OK procedure.
Theory ---> revisit all the facts with that assumption is not.

For instance, when the death of Akai Shuuichi was being debated, the lack of blood in the mouth was crucial (for me) to subscribe to such theory, since it hinted the body had been switched.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: The Gamma theory

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

barnabo wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:As a whole, the evidential for support for the conclusions drawn is sorely lacking. Especially toward the end of the theory with the Kogoro and boss stuff, the what-ifs are really only useful if they circle back to prove that the original supposition was reasonable to make and likely to be true.
Yes, that theory lacks proof. On the other hand, while I expect some proof hidden within the story for most mysteries, I don't except it for something of that magnitude (at least for the Gin=Yuusaku part). I only expect that the story would not be incompatible with the theory until the truth would be revealed.
Not giving hints is not Gosho's style. It just isn't. Aoyama hints everything eventually because he chooses to do solvable mysteries and not no-clues-for-the-sake-of-surprising-readers mysteries. That's just how Detective Conan is written - golden age style. The Japanese call it "new traditionalist" or "new orthodox school". The only reason Gosho hasn't provided lots of hints yet for certain mysteries, like why Gin is loyal, or the identity of the boss, is because he doesn't want the truth to come out yet. Pacing is everything. (albeit glacially slow for Gosho) If you look back on past arcs, you could have gotten pretty much everything in advance, even things like Vermouth maybe not aging.
barnabo wrote: True... Saying that Gin seems to overpower Conan was too much. What I wanted to say was there are cases where Gin seems to overpower Conan in term of reflexion.
Usually those are the ones where Conan does not have the upper hand to begin because of unfortunate circumstances (Gin can recognize a single one of Shiho's hair because he has some obsession with her Conan didn't know about, Conan's tracker got stuck on Kir's shoe and surprise she is a member of the Org.). Conan manages to claw partial or complete victory from many of these cases anyway, like the Shinkansen, the Mystery Train (although Conan had an assist from Vermouth, Akai could have stopped the train early with the grenade), Red vs Black, FBI vs. Org, and the ambush for Scar Akai.
barnabo wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: The reason why Yuusaku is left out is because he is an overpowered character.
I totally agree with that from a narrative point of view. What bugs me is not the fact that he's not helping Conan on the BO cases, it's the accumulation of facts :

- When it's not BO related, Yuukiko and Yuusaku are often together.
- When it's a BO "confrontation" chapter/episode, Yuukiko seems to always be here, popping up at the last time. Always popping up at the last time.

The whole look like an emphasis on the fact that Yuusaku is never part of the BO cases.
I think this more because Yukiko can match Vermouth on the disguise front and she has a legitimate plot connection with her there, but Yuusaku is useless for anything except beating Conan. Yuusaku has no place in the narrative storyline for BO cases, so he gets left out. Just because he isn't present doesn't mean his absense is a clue. With that logic you could argue any side character who typically doesn't appear in BO cases is suspicious, like the DB, Eri, Sonoko, or lots of the police.
If you want to make a case for BO Yuusaku, there has to be some specific "Yuusaku-shaped hole" in the BO actions that you can make a case for existing.
barnabo wrote: Of course, if he has done that, that's only if he's 100% sure that it would shrink him (cf: the later explanation).
In my previous answer I forgot about mentioning that Gin was going to bomb the mystery train Conan and Yukiko was riding.
barnabo wrote: The drug he was using (in that hypothesis) wouldn't have been made while Elena/Atsuhi were within the organisation, but after. So the BO (nor Shiho) doesn't know that such a drug exists.
It's hard to swallow the existence of another hypothetical drug-making party that the Miyanos know nothing of and happened between Elena/Atsushi and Shiho's tenure.
barnabo wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Yoko introduced Mizunashi Rena to Mouri Kogoro in order to have Mizunashi's stalker problem solved. Even if the boss was sure of his/her own ability to fool others, the boss would want to avoid interactions between Black Organization operatives and renowned detectives if possible should the detective notice something amiss.
If Yoko was the boss, she should be smart, yet she failed to identify who was stalking and harassing her (that's what she originally went to Kogoro's office for) and deal with them. If she had taken appropriate measures she could have avoided bringing police and a detective to her home.
Clearly here, if Yoko is the Boss, she don't care about Mizunashi's stalker at all, she has another motive to do that, either because she wants to test the reaction of Mizunashi if she's with Kogoro, either she wants to test Kogoro in some sort.

For the first meeting between Kogoro and Yoko, if Yoko is the Boss, she would have bugged her appartement and knew there was a corpse there before getting back home, she wouldn't went to Kogoro's office to really find who was stalking her, but to have someone discovering the corpse and finding the truth.
For Kir's thing, what reason for there is the boss to bother testing Kogoro anyway? Nobody just tests people for giggles in DC, especially not a cautious boss who would want to minimize contact with outsiders. This was before anyone in the Black suspected Kogoro (post FBI vs. Org)

If Yoko is the boss, she doesn't need help finding the truth, especially from an outsider Kogoro. She could have Bourbon or Vermouth in disguise look into it if she needed to hire a detective to look good for the police.
barnabo wrote: There is no special meaning to the name "Gamma". I just happen to like to name things to easily be able refer to them later. And names doesn't always carries meanings. Don't look for a meaning in everything I say, I "would have put that loaded gun on the wall anyway".
It's pretty uncommon for people to name theories, so I wondered if there was a reason that was relevant to the theory but not mentioned yet, like relativity's γ, γ radiation, γ brains waves, or something like that. The tradition has been boring descriptive names, or naming them after the loudest proponent. :-P
Patrick wrote:
Spoiler:
As stated above I think we lack proof, but I personally don't subscribe to this theory.
Yes, it could be one explanation to Yuusaku's actions, but it's not the only explanation (him being far too good to appear in the series too often being the other). Therefore, when you say "if you re-read all the BO cases considering Yuusaku=Gin it all makes sense!", this means you're using your theory to suit facts and not the other way around. So be careful doing this, because assuming something and then revisiting the facts doesn't prove the assumption is valid.

1) Yuusaku outsmarts everyone so far--> Solid, we haven't seen anyone smarter than him as of yet.
2) The whereabouts of Yuusaku during a BO case are unknown --> Solid
3) Yuusaku = Gin because 1) & 2) --> Not solid, because there could be other explanations.

Hence, when reading all the BO cases again under the premise 3), it doesn't justify anything because 3 isn't solid to begin with.
It's just like math (I'm studying math in college at the moment), you can prove a theorem under certain hypothesis, but later on you can only apply such theorem if the hypothesis are met. Otherwise, the theorem doesn't guarantee any result.

In other words:
Facts, facts, facts ---> Theory that matches everything is an OK procedure.
Theory ---> revisit all the facts with that assumption is not.

For instance, when the death of Akai Shuuichi was being debated, the lack of blood in the mouth was crucial (for me) to subscribe to such theory, since it hinted the body had been switched.
All of this.
The Yuusaku-shaped-hole the Gamma theory needs as I so badly put it above has to be something equivalent of Shuuichi's missing blood trails. It needs an observation that can't be explained without resorting to expalantion like Yuusaku is Gin.
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