Ai + Conan

[kirite]

Debates can get heated, there is nothing wrong with your opinion.

My personal opinion is with or without Ran, Shinichi would''ve found the BO anyway. The story didn't need to have Ran in it to begin or continue. She is important as Shinichi's lover at this point, which isn't very important. She only does the things she does for Shinichi's sake. Shinichi not only wants to get back to being Shinichi because of Ran, but to also solve cases the way he used to...and get credit for them. As a child it isn't easy for people to believe him....Vermouth likes her, but really, Ran is not involved with the BO. They don't even know her name. She is a main character, which I find surprising, because she is the least important character. She has importance, but the least of others who are supposedly not main characters.....she just doesn't fit in the world of DC. It's like all of these people who are involved in solving cases (detectives, police force, scientists, and criminals) and then here are some girls who.....talk about boys all day. I mean, don't you think that puts them out of touch with the DC world? And it makes them seem less important than everyone else.

It's like having a black tie affair, and three people show up in red..........

There isn't really a "main" girl character anyways, we never see things from Ran's point of view.  The entire story is seen from a -main character- perspective in the form of Shinichi/Conan.  I don't really understand this "main ___ character" thing in a single person perspective story.  But then I'm guessing it's because Americans like sticking a girl love interest in every single movie and video game they make (omfg why) hence born the term "main girl character".

For the record why is Haibara and Ran always seen as "oh they're inportant because Shinichi _____".  Can't people view them as individual characters with individual developments during couple debates as well?

Anyways.

Depends what you mean by "DC world" I guess.  From my impression you don't like some characters because they don't fit in with the gritty detective world known as Detective Conan.

Personally I prefere garden variety mysteries, they taste better.  Ayumi loses a shoe, Haibara finds a kitty, Mitsuhiko discovers the joys of hacking and is now a missing internationally wanted criminal, etc...  The B.O. arcs seem to taste too much like those thriller things they keep trying to feed me in the library in place of deliciouscake mystery novels.  When it comes to it after reading Conan for a while my interest with the B.O. are meh.

So even if Shinichi never found the B.O. doesn't matter to me at all.  Just give me mysteries to solve every week with the occasional sprinkle seasoning of humor or baww and I'll be happy.

But then the most interesting about the DC is Haibara so...what can I say xD.  I'm really glad Gosho took the story the way he did.  But I won't say the characters that don't have anything to do with her story (KID, Sonoko, Kogoro, Araide, Ran, Takagi, etc..) aren't interesting.  Afterall Haibara's story isn't the entire DC series, nor is the B.O, nor is whatever KID stole and put back yesterday (that's Magic Kaito).  Personally I always judge a series by all it's aspects, it makes the series more fun to reread.

[soratothamax]

There isn't really a "main" girl character anyways, we never see things from Ran's point of view.  The entire story is seen from a -main character- perspective in the form of Shinichi/Conan.  I don't really understand this "main ___ character" thing in a single person perspective story.  But then I'm guessing it's because Americans like sticking a girl love interest in every single movie and video game they make (omfg why) hence born the term "main girl character".

For the record why is Haibara and Ran always seen as "oh they're inportant because Shinichi _____".  Can't people view them as individual characters with individual developments during couple debates as well?

Anyways.

Depends what you mean by "DC world" I guess.  From my impression you don't like some characters because they don't fit in with the gritty detective world known as Detective Conan.

Personally I prefere garden variety mysteries, they taste better.  Ayumi loses a shoe, Haibara finds a kitty, Mitsuhiko discovers the joys of hacking and is now a missing internationally wanted criminal, etc...  The B.O. arcs seem to taste too much like those thriller things they keep trying to feed me in the library in place of deliciouscake mystery novels.   When it comes to it after reading Conan for a while my interest with the B.O. are meh.

So even if Shinichi never found the B.O. doesn't matter to me at all.  Just give me mysteries to solve every week with the occasional sprinkle seasoning of humor or baww and I'll be happy.

But then the most interesting about the DC is Haibara so...what can I say xD.  I'm really glad Gosho took the story the way he did.  But I won't say the characters that don't have anything to do with her story (KID, Sonoko, Kogoro, Araide, Ran, Takagi, etc..) aren't interesting.  Afterall Haibara's story isn't the entire DC series, nor is the B.O, nor is whatever KID stole and put back yesterday (that's Magic Kaito).  Personally I always judge a series by all it's aspects, it makes the series more fun to reread.

Just because they aren't important doesn't mean they are less interesting. But from a writer's point of view (such as myself), Ran is not a very well-developed character, especially considering the type of role she is supposed to have. The "main girl character" is actually a term used in theater and story writing (take some classes, and you'll see what I mean). Just like the terms "first person" or "third person" points of view. In every story, there is a main character. The "main girl character" is the girl that the writer wants to put most focus on, and the girl that the writer feels is most important to the main character.

While Ran is the focus of Goshyo, she doesn't play a big importance in the story. If anything, she should have had a role like Haibara's if she was supposed to be the main girl! Everybody doesn't need to be part of the main plot, but shouldn't the girl who is supposed to be "the main girl character" have one of the most important roles in the story? It really seems like Haibara is the "main girl character" (BTW you don't have to be the "love interest" to be "the main girl character....")

Spoiler:

Hermoine in the Harry Potter series is considered the "main girl character" though she is not Harry Potter's love interest......

Because they don't fit in the DC world, those would be classified as supporting characters. They support the story. Ran is not supposed to be one, and yet her role is placed in a way where it seems she is.

I don't want everyone to be important, or seriously involved with everything, but the main girl character should be to be a main girl character, otherwise, eventually, she will be out-shined by the most important girl character, which is already slowly happening.

I also don't care much about who is better because of Shinichi. But really, what is Ran as a character without Shinichi? Haibara really is a character that can stand on her own two feet without Shinichi, who has her own background. That's why I think she is the best female character in the series.

A side of me thinks Shinichi should be with a more important girl character....rather than a girl who isn't very interesting.......

[Nyarl]

There isn't really a "main" girl character anyways, we never see things from Ran's point of view.  

Ran was absolutely the protagonist of vol42's Convenience Store story.

Vol46/47's Weird Family's Request/Ran's Suspicion  was mostly from Ran's POV. Though, heh, maybe she's better considered the B plot antagonist there. Likewise the other suspicion stories, though vol3's Once-a-Month Presents was more from her POV than vol14's Cornered Detective because we get to see her thoughts.

Vol34/35's Golden Apple was almost entirely from her POV. She was even the narrator. I'd still give the credit for lead to Shin'ichi, though. Ran was more of a Watson in that story.

Vol55's Kisaki's Love wasn't flattering for her, but she was really more of the story driving lead than Conan there. (Sort of like Haibara in (what will be) vol65's Half Kill.)

Of course, Conan is the overbearing title character lead in the overwhelming majority of the stories, but he isn't always. (Haibara gets a few A/B plot leads along with the Half Kill and vol53's Challenge for Class 1B story leads, too.)

[kirite]

Just because they aren't important doesn't mean they are less interesting. But from a writer's point of view (such as myself), Ran is not a very well-developed character, especially considering the type of role she is supposed to have. The "main girl character" is actually a term used in theater and story writing (take some classes, and you'll see what I mean). Just like the terms "first person" or "third person" points of view. In every story, there is a main character. The "main girl character" is the girl that the writer wants to put most focus on, and the girl that the writer feels is most important to the main character.

While Ran is the focus of Goshyo, she doesn't play a big importance in the story. If anything, she should have had a role like Haibara's if she was supposed to be the main girl! Everybody doesn't need to be part of the main plot, but shouldn't the girl who is supposed to be "the main girl character" have one of the most important roles in the story? It really seems like Haibara is the "main girl character" (BTW you don't have to be the "love interest" to be "the main girl character....")

Spoiler:

Hermoine in the Harry Potter series is considered the "main girl character" though she is not Harry Potter's love interest......

Because they don't fit in the DC world, those would be classified as supporting characters. They support the story. Ran is not supposed to be one, and yet her role is placed in a way where it seems she is.

I don't want everyone to be important, or seriously involved with everything, but the main girl character should be to be a main girl character, otherwise, eventually, she will be out-shined by the most important girl character, which is already slowly happening.

I also don't care much about who is better because of Shinichi. But really, what is Ran as a character without Shinichi? Haibara really is a character that can stand on her own two feet without Shinichi, who has her own background. That's why I think she is the best female character in the series.

A side of me thinks Shinichi should be with a more important girl character....rather than a girl who isn't very interesting.......

Why is Ran suppose to be the "girl character that Gosho focus the most on"?  Is it because she was the first girl character who's introduced?  Why do you think she's placed in a way that she's suppose to support something o_o?    

If say Gosho suddenly decides to make this into a harem anime (LOL NO PLZ) and introduce like 5 new girls will Ran still be the main one?  Given she's Shinichi's love interest but like you said Ginny in Harry Potter was Harry's eventual love interst (and I never heard anyone call her main girl character but iunno).

So I guess does "female character love interest who's introduced first" = "Main girl character" in a literary sense?  

I always wanted to know lol, I had this debate over at other forums and it was really confusing.  I guess what I'm confused about is why must there always only be -one- main girl character.  If this is a story about a guy who meets a bunch of girls who star in their own individual story arcs shouldn't they all be "main girl characters"?  Looking at this in reverse let's say a girl meet a bunch of guys, why is it that the first guy she meets is always the "main guy character" even if they're not the focus of the story arc?

-does not compute-

-latches onto Soratothemax's leg because she's a writer and can tell me these things-

With that said I think Ran's character is fine, I'm quite fond of her character actually with or without being "useful" to Shinichi.  Really the only person who's "useful" to Shinichi in a deductive sense is Hattori (barely because he's always a smidge slower), Akai, and maybe Satou/Takagi.

As to Haibara her character developes more as she's stars in multiple story arcs (ftw).  However I don't think having a complicated background is particularly important.  Mary Sues are usually the daughters of B.O. bosses, secret agents, or orphans or whatever but nobody cares about them .  I guess the most important part is how Gosho developed her character in the present time frame of the story. 

With that said I agree on characterisation decay.  But I think this applies to more then just Ran (but I've always seen her as a standby character).  I think Gosho has a bad habit of using characters in an arc then neglicting them or using them as emotionless bystanders ;_;.  Even Haibara goes through this I think, luckily the Akai arc means she would still star in a story arc and recieve further characterisation (if Gosho decides to do it like that).

======

Nyarl's super 1337 reference power ftw!  I forgot about the arcs where they star in as narators (there is just so little).    

[Soragirl6]

Just because they aren't important doesn't mean they are less interesting. But from a writer's point of view (such as myself), Ran is not a very well-developed character, especially considering the type of role she is supposed to have. The "main girl character" is actually a term used in theater and story writing (take some classes, and you'll see what I mean). Just like the terms "first person" or "third person" points of view. In every story, there is a main character. The "main girl character" is the girl that the writer wants to put most focus on, and the girl that the writer feels is most important to the main character.

While Ran is the focus of Goshyo, she doesn't play a big importance in the story. If anything, she should have had a role like Haibara's if she was supposed to be the main girl! Everybody doesn't need to be part of the main plot, but shouldn't the girl who is supposed to be "the main girl character" have one of the most important roles in the story? It really seems like Haibara is the "main girl character" (BTW you don't have to be the "love interest" to be "the main girl character....")

Spoiler:

Hermoine in the Harry Potter series is considered the "main girl character" though she is not Harry Potter's love interest......

Because they don't fit in the DC world, those would be classified as supporting characters. They support the story. Ran is not supposed to be one, and yet her role is placed in a way where it seems she is.

I don't want everyone to be important, or seriously involved with everything, but the main girl character should be to be a main girl character, otherwise, eventually, she will be out-shined by the most important girl character, which is already slowly happening.

I also don't care much about who is better because of Shinichi. But really, what is Ran as a character without Shinichi? Haibara really is a character that can stand on her own two feet without Shinichi, who has her own background. That's why I think she is the best female character in the series.

A side of me thinks Shinichi should be with a more important girl character....rather than a girl who isn't very interesting.......

Why is Ran suppose to be the "girl character that Gosho focus the most on"?  Is it because she was the first girl character who's introduced?  Why do you think she's placed in a way that she's suppose to support something o_o?    

If say Gosho suddenly decides to make this into a harem anime (LOL NO PLZ) and introduce like 5 new girls will Ran still be the main one?  Given she's Shinichi's love interest but like you said Ginny in Harry Potter was Harry's eventual love interst (and I never heard anyone call her main girl character but iunno).

So I guess does "female character love interest who's introduced first" = "Main girl character" in a literary sense?  

I always wanted to know lol, I had this debate over at other forums and it was really confusing.  I guess what I'm confused about is why must there always only be -one- main girl character.  If this is a story about a guy who meets a bunch of girls who star in their own individual story arcs shouldn't they all be "main girl characters"?  Looking at this in reverse let's say a girl meet a bunch of guys, why is it that the first guy she meets is always the "main guy character" even if they're not the focus of the story arc?

-does not compute-

-latches onto Soratothemax's leg because she's a writer and can tell me these things-

With that said I think Ran's character is fine, I'm quite fond of her character actually with or without being "useful" to Shinichi.  Really the only person who's "useful" to Shinichi in a deductive sense is Hattori (barely because he's always a smidge slower), Akai, and maybe Satou/Takagi.

As to Haibara her character developes more as she's stars in multiple story arcs (ftw).  However I don't think having a complicated background is particularly important.  Mary Sues are usually the daughters of B.O. bosses, secret agents, or orphans or whatever but nobody cares about them .  I guess the most important part is how Gosho developed her character in the present time frame of the story.  

With that said I agree on characterisation decay.  But I think this applies to more then just Ran (but I've always seen her as a standby character).  I think Gosho has a bad habit of using characters in an arc then neglicting them or using them as emotionless bystanders ;_;.  Even Haibara goes through this I think, luckily the Akai arc means she would still star in a story arc and recieve further characterisation (if Gosho decides to do it like that).

======

Nyarl's super 1337 reference power ftw!  I forgot about the arcs where they star in as narators (there is just so little).    

The question is what is her character?...she's like Ayumi who cries more.... Besides that, even if it was a show like Tenchi Muyo and Ranma 1/2 there is always one main girl (or guy) aside from the main character. Its a reason why they are usually introduced first....because the writer wants them to be important to the main character. (Ryoko, Akane) But unfortunately not only is Ai with Shinchi more than Ran in the Series, but she also shows vital importance to the main character as well as some feelings toward him. Ran has barely any importance to the main character at all and is hardly in it. So it seems like she's more of a supporting character than anything. I mean its obvious Goshyo thought she should have been the main girl cause she's in almost every opening with more scenes in those then she does episodes, but she is losing her place and being overshadowed by a character that should not have more importance than her....that is sad. Not that Ran has to be useful to Shinchi, but if Ran wasn't, she'd be what you call a "dead Character". Shinchi is the only real reason she is a character. Where as Ai, with or without Shinchi she still has meaning to the DC world.
A back story for a character, their history, dislikes, likes, personality, their character evolving, a mysterious past, a meaning to the story's plot, a great design, their emotions.....thats what makes a character...those are Ai's traits used in the series. Ran only has 2 out of 3 of the things mentioned....which makes for very weak character development. And she hasn't evolved either which puts her at a stand still. She is just simply like wearing green shoes and everything you have on is black and blue. Not only is she useless to the story, she's not an interesting or unique enough character to stand as one and all she does is annoy fans with her crying and calling Shinchi's name, which is very agitating. Honestly she doesn't even crack jokes anymore and her Karate seems to only work every once in a while until she becomes the D.I.D. Honestly, if DC didn't have all those unnecessary Ran episodes and scenes, more important and cooler characters might have been revealed or enhanced to fit the awesome story, plot, scene, and everything else. And along with that, Ran's character ends up dragging along another annoying unimportant character, Sonoko.....yeah....Added,

My reasons for liking Ai with Conan/Shinchi is because I think it would make an even more interesting romance. They have an evolving relationship already and that connection with them to the audience who watch DC is intense.

In other words it doesn't feel like the writer just slapped some girl in there to love Shinchi cause a main character should have one. With Ai it seems like they are actually growing to know each other and understand each other. That is the potential expression of true love, trust and an understanding bond. Really, there is no "romance" between Ran and Shinchi....they are simply love interests to each other....

Enough....the girl is bad....the girl is dangerous....(R.I.P. MJ)

[Introuble]

remove ran and DC would be completely different admit it she is obviously VERY IMPORTANT
- conan wants to return to his normal body of course to get his teen body back but he obviously wants to grow back because he wants to confess with ran and be with her. the three times conan got the chance to grow back his main goal was to tell ran how he felt about her.
- without ran shinichi wouldnt have found out about the B.O because he wouldnt have went to tropical island in the first place

-without ran the story wouldnt be so interesting ran gives DC the romance not to mention without ran i dont think gosho would have made sonoko and where would he have stayed? with the professor? and turn him into this detective dude?

-no more suspicion chapters? when conan and heji meet who would kazuhas buddy be?
and dont forget shinrans post vermouth has this feeling for ran not love but this guilt feeling.
kogoro would be living alone? i cant imagine that! his detective agency should be filled with beer and stuff

- haibara is very very important but DC could have continued with her remember she was introduced around ep 120+?
thats 120 eps without haibara DC could still have been great! but of course because of haibara DC has become much more interesting.

[ranger]

remove ran and DC would be completely different admit it she is obviously VERY IMPORTANT
- conan wants to return to his normal body of course to get his teen body back but he obviously wants to grow back because he wants to confess with ran and be with her. the three times conan got the chance to grow back his main goal was to tell ran how he felt about her.
- without ran shinichi wouldnt have found out about the B.O because he wouldnt have went to tropical island in the first place

-without ran the story wouldnt be so interesting ran gives DC the romance not to mention without ran i dont think gosho would have made sonoko and where would he have stayed? with the professor? and turn him into this detective dude?

-no more suspicion chapters? when conan and heji meet who would kazuhas buddy be?
and dont forget shinrans post vermouth has this feeling for ran not love but this guilt feeling.
kogoro would be living alone? i cant imagine that! his detective agency should be filled with beer and stuff

- haibara is very very important but DC could have continued with her remember she was introduced around ep 120+?
thats 120 eps without haibara DC could still have been great! but of course because of haibara DC has become much more interesting.

A lot of your argument is relating to how she is already tied into the story...Does it really matter that if Ran isnt there, Kazuha doesn't have a friend? If ran wasn't in the story, Im sure Gosho would of done something about it...

I mean what you are kind of saying is sort of trivial stuff...i mean if Ran wasnt here, Sonoko yes probably wouldnt have been introduced, but I dont think its hard to introduce another comical character like her.

I mean of course Ran is important, because shes been in the story for 15 + years now and if you just pluck her out you're gonna get a lot of missing holes (like what you said, where would have conan stayed, etc etc)...but the same shit can apply to anyone.  Okay, lets take out Ayumi, who's going to be that 5th detective boy member? whos going to be that girl whos obsessed with conan, etc etc  (you see where I'm going with this?).  Hell, I can say something like that with Haibara, if she wasnt in the series, conan would have never have shrunk, cuz she never made the pill, yada yada yada (you see, this concept applies to everyone, even Genta's dank ass)

From what I understand, haibara brought a lot more to the table than Ran did in the first 128 episodes...The first 128 episodes were great, because they were all very well-thought and unique and refreshing murder cases!  But, eventually, watching case after case gets REALLY BORING, and you need to advance the plot regarding the Black Organization.  If DC didnt introduce someone like haibara, I doubt the series would of lasted past 250 episodes, just due the crazy amount of filler episodes there would be.

When people say Haibara is more important to Ran, it's because her story is actually interesting (the sappy childhood love story/ crying whenever she hears the word Shinichi is very mundane).  We learn more about the mysterious organization that Conan is fighting against, and see perhaps the best developed character in the series.

[kirite]

The question is what is her character?...she's like Ayumi who cries more.... Besides that, even if it was a show like Tenchi Muyo and Ranma 1/2 there is always one main girl (or guy) aside from the main character. Its a reason why they are usually introduced first....because the writer wants them to be important to the main character. (Ryoko, Akane) But unfortunately not only is Ai with Shinchi more than Ran in the Series, but she also shows vital importance to the main character as well as some feelings toward him. Ran has barely any importance to the main character at all and is hardly in it. So it seems like she's more of a supporting character than anything. I mean its obvious Goshyo thought she should have been the main girl cause she's in almost every opening with more scenes in those then she does episodes, but she is losing her place and being overshadowed by a character that should not have more importance than her....that is sad. Not that Ran has to be useful to Shinchi, but if Ran wasn't, she'd be what you call a "dead Character". Shinchi is the only real reason she is a character. Where as Ai, with or without Shinchi she still has meaning to the DC world.
A back story for a character, their history, dislikes, likes, personality, their character evolving, a mysterious past, a meaning to the story's plot, a great design, their emotions.....thats what makes a character...those are Ai's traits used in the series. Ran only has 2 out of 3 of the things mentioned....which makes for very weak character development. And she hasn't evolved either which puts her at a stand still. She is just simply like wearing green shoes and everything you have on is black and blue. Not only is she useless to the story, she's not an interesting or unique enough character to stand as one and all she does is annoy fans with her crying and calling Shinchi's name, which is very agitating. Honestly she doesn't even crack jokes anymore and her Karate seems to only work every once in a while until she becomes the D.I.D. Honestly, if DC didn't have all those unnecessary Ran episodes and scenes, more important and cooler characters might have been revealed or enhanced to fit the awesome story, plot, scene, and everything else. And along with that, Ran's character ends up dragging along another annoying unimportant character, Sonoko.....yeah....Added,

My reasons for liking Ai with Conan/Shinchi is because I think it would make an even more interesting romance. They have an evolving relationship already and that connection with them to the audience who watch DC is intense.

In other words it doesn't feel like the writer just slapped some girl in there to love Shinchi cause a main character should have one. With Ai it seems like they are actually growing to know each other and understand each other. That is the potential expression of true love, trust and an understanding bond. Really, there is no "romance" between Ran and Shinchi....they are simply love interests to each other....

Enough....the girl is bad....the girl is dangerous....(R.I.P. MJ)

A nitpick, Gosho has nothing to do with the anime.  So if they feature say... pudding in all the openings and ending it has nothing to do with Gosho.

Maybe I'm bias because I like DC or maybe because I'm judging DC as a manga but I think all of DC's girl characters are quite strong and interesting.  Gosho always tries to create interesting female character, but then maybe I'm just comparing it to other Shounen manga in his time (I'm an old person like that).

What's wrong with an Ayumi who cries more?  With that said what's wrong with Ayumi?  Isn't her bravery and sense of justice the reason why Haibara doesn't run away anymore?

The thing is not every character has to be the star of the overarching story.  I never saw Ran as a character who will play her role that way.  I've always seen her as a character that you can throw 300 murders at and still shrug through it and go to school the next day.  As to what is her character or the whole ConanxAi thing since I don't have anything against disliking Ran (feel free! opinions FTW!) I won't bother to go into that xD.  Like I said before characters are only as deep as you like them.  But I still don't understand the literary role that you claim certain people -must- fulfill.  

If Ran really is dependent on Shinichi as you say what if Gosho just introduced her to be apart of Shinichi's character?  If that's the case then Ran's just a part of Shinichi and all "Ran" episodes are actually just "Shinichi" episodes.  It's for giving Shinichi more character depth.  Can't a "main girl character" role be used that way?

Personally I never really saw Gosho ever having a main girl character (girl character who he focuses on and develops the most).  He usually leaves his girl characters on standby character as must as possible unless it's their "story arc".  In fact for some characters he doesn't even develope them DURING their story arcs.  It's like how Shoujo manga will have these impossible guy characters  ::).  With that said Gosho always -tries- to characterise his girl characters.  A profound remark there, a smirk there, a sibling there, a omg-I'm-so-hax there.  DC is a series with a lot of characters, Gosho doesn't really use them at all xD.  However if you take a second look you can tell he's always using these characters to say something.

Sonoko Suzuki:  The heiress to one of Japan's richest most influential families (a Zaibatsu).  We never got much from her childhood, but being one of the richest heiress in Japan isn't always a happy thing.  Despite her high position in society she attends a relatively normal school and tries to live her life as commonly as possible.  She doesn't throw her money around, she isn't forced to only hang around rich people, she walks home from school with Ran, she giggles about boys freely, and is actually very clumsy in love.  Neither her sister nor her sister's fiance is into business (art and film respectively) but we never see Sonoko pressured into taking over companies, nor is she forced to marry "competent people of her class".  

I think Sonoko being "normal" in this case is very special.  It's Gosho's little blurb on rich and poor and how you shouldn't judge people by how much money they have.  Sonoko is also a girl who gives a mask of confidence but is actually really insecure about love. You don't have to like her but I think Gosho is also justified in deciding to make her character.  Sure Gosho can make an elabourate case on her complete with B.O. story arc, it's not exactly difficult saying that a zaibatsu is corrupt and being used by the B.O. to control the Japanese market.  But does it really matter?  Do character really need a elabourate arc each just to justify their existance in a story?  I think Gosho just uses a character to say stuff during cases most of the time.  He likes using Ayumi and Ai along with Sonoko and Ran to talk about his opinions on friendship and bravery.  How you shouldn't run away if you want to conquer your fears, how friendship is fragile, how you shouldn't use your friends for money, how you should treat all your friends equally, etc... Gosho should be allowed to say these type of things, he's the mangaka : o.

[kirite]

I'm really sorry about the double post but for some odd reason I'm having trouble editing my last post .

But, eventually, watching case after case gets REALLY BORING, and you need to advance the plot regarding the Black Organization.  

Just skip all the cases and read the B.O. cases then .  Why bother to read the pages of a manga if you're not enjoying yourself?  That's how my brother reads Conan lol.

- without ran shinichi wouldnt have found out about the B.O because he wouldnt have went to tropical island in the first place

-without ran the story wouldnt be so interesting ran gives DC the romance not to mention without ran i dont think gosho would have made sonoko and where would he have stayed? with the professor? and turn him into this detective dude?

-no more suspicion chapters? when conan and heji meet who would kazuhas buddy be?
and dont forget shinrans post vermouth has this feeling for ran not love but this guilt feeling.
kogoro would be living alone? i cant imagine that! his detective agency should be filled with beer and stuff

- haibara is very very important but DC could have continued with her remember she was introduced around ep 120+?
thats 120 eps without haibara DC could still have been great! but of course because of haibara DC has become much more interesting.

1)  Actually Shinichi has a habit of following suspicious characters down a dark alleyway.  If he didn't go with Ran to Tropicland and found the Black Org.  He'll most likely find the Pink or Green Org next time he gets the bright idea of snearking around suspicious characters by himself at night without backup or telling anyone where he's going.

2)  I *twitch* don't like romance.  agree that without Ran he wouldn't have such a easy reason to stay with Kogoro.  However if not Kogoro I'm sure he'll figure out to stay with someone else.  

3)  Suspicion chapters can be other characters being suspicious of Conan.  Satou, Takagi, Genta, etc... Of course it won't have the same effect as to having his love interest who he took a bath with suspicious of him but then I'm sure Gosho will amuse us some other way xD.

4)  I agree with Ran's involvement with Vermouth's past.  However if Ran's not here Shinichi could have experienced that by himself.  Ran and Shinichi's personalities and habits are exactly the same like that.

5)  Frankly if it wasn't for Haibara I wouldn't even care about the B.O.'s existance.

[soratothamax]

Why is Ran suppose to be the "girl character that Gosho focus the most on"?  Is it because she was the first girl character who's introduced?  Why do you think she's placed in a way that she's suppose to support something o_o?    

If say Gosho suddenly decides to make this into a harem anime (LOL NO PLZ) and introduce like 5 new girls will Ran still be the main one?  Given she's Shinichi's love interest but like you said Ginny in Harry Potter was Harry's eventual love interst (and I never heard anyone call her main girl character but iunno).

So I guess does "female character love interest who's introduced first" = "Main girl character" in a literary sense?  

I always wanted to know lol, I had this debate over at other forums and it was really confusing.  I guess what I'm confused about is why must there always only be -one- main girl character.  If this is a story about a guy who meets a bunch of girls who star in their own individual story arcs shouldn't they all be "main girl characters"?  Looking at this in reverse let's say a girl meet a bunch of guys, why is it that the first guy she meets is always the "main guy character" even if they're not the focus of the story arc?

-does not compute-

-latches onto Soratothemax's leg because she's a writer and can tell me these things-

With that said I think Ran's character is fine, I'm quite fond of her character actually with or without being "useful" to Shinichi.  Really the only person who's "useful" to Shinichi in a deductive sense is Hattori (barely because he's always a smidge slower), Akai, and maybe Satou/Takagi.

As to Haibara her character developes more as she's stars in multiple story arcs (ftw).  However I don't think having a complicated background is particularly important.  Mary Sues are usually the daughters of B.O. bosses, secret agents, or orphans or whatever but nobody cares about them .  I guess the most important part is how Gosho developed her character in the present time frame of the story. 

With that said I agree on characterisation decay.  But I think this applies to more then just Ran (but I've always seen her as a standby character).  I think Gosho has a bad habit of using characters in an arc then neglicting them or using them as emotionless bystanders ;_;.  Even Haibara goes through this I think, luckily the Akai arc means she would still star in a story arc and recieve further characterisation (if Gosho decides to do it like that).

======

Nyarl's super 1337 reference power ftw!  I forgot about the arcs where they star in as narators (there is just so little).    

No, what I'm saying is "the main girl character" DOES NOT have to be a love interest to be the main girl character.

Spoiler:

Ginny in Harry Potter ISN'T a main girl character, though she is the love interest of Harry Potter. Hermoine is the "main girl character."

Even if this anime becomes a harem, whichever girl Goshyo puts more emphasis on throughout the story as being a "back-up" or "potential heroine" in the story is the main girl character.

Spoiler:

For instance, in Tenchi Muyo, Ryoko is the main reason all of the things happen, so she is the main girl character that the writer wants to focus on.

But what I'm saying is that though Ran has done some important things in DC, she is not important ENOUGH to be classified as a "main girl character." She is the love interest, like Ginny, but she's no Hermoine....But Goshyo has put her in a position where she is SUPPOSED to be the main, however, she has no reference to the BO, or anything that the main plot surrounds. (she's in majority of the openings, episodes, and is considered someone Shinichi can't be without, someone who is looked at as a role model for female watchers, often has her own side of the story, etc...).

But though she is in every episode, and has done important things, she is not needed to move Goshyo's main plot along. If the story began with or without her, it would be different, yes, but not too different. She has done important things like other useless characters have (Sonoko has been Conan's "voice" during cases...but she's pointless). Really it doesn't matter if Ran is nice to Vermouth, Vermouth isn't the boss and can be killed too if the moment presents itself. Ran helps, but not a very important character to move the plot along. We don't need a childhood friend who occasionally helps to move DC along.

whereas with Ai....well, someone created the drug that shrunk Shinichi. That would be a plothole if no one created the drug that shrunk Shinichi... ....so, they invented the character Ai who created the drug, and also gave Conan his connections in the BO. So she has more of an importance than any other female heroine (not villain) in the story. And that's a problem for Goshyo, because it makes Ai outshine his "main girl character." Other female characters should not have more importance to the story than the "main girl character." Which leads me to believe, that eventually, Ai will be seen as "the main girl character" by some viewers, though she is not intended to be.

Even if writers try not to focus on one girl/guy, it's hard not to. If there was a female main character, there would also be a "main boy character." It's so the story can appeal to a wide audience, and see to gender points of view (some girls want to see a girl's side of the story). Having that character in place makes it easier, without replacing the main character.....

And it's not about who is important to Shinichi. It's about who is important to the story. I like Ran as a character too....but she is not very important to the STORY. She is important to Shinichi, but not to the story. There is a difference.

Ai is one of the best female characters designed, and is well-developed as a character (meaning she has an intricate past, a complicated personality, a unique profile, an interesting look and design, and a huge part in the storyline....she made the drug that started this whole mess). All of those components make for a well-developed character.

[Soragirl6]

remove ran and DC would be completely different admit it she is obviously VERY IMPORTANT
- conan wants to return to his normal body of course to get his teen body back but he obviously wants to grow back because he wants to confess with ran and be with her. the three times conan got the chance to grow back his main goal was to tell ran how he felt about her.
- without ran shinichi wouldnt have found out about the B.O because he wouldnt have went to tropical island in the first place

-without ran the story wouldnt be so interesting ran gives DC the romance not to mention without ran i dont think gosho would have made sonoko and where would he have stayed? with the professor? and turn him into this detective dude?

-no more suspicion chapters? when conan and heji meet who would kazuhas buddy be?
and dont forget shinrans post vermouth has this feeling for ran not love but this guilt feeling.
kogoro would be living alone? i cant imagine that! his detective agency should be filled with beer and stuff

- haibara is very very important but DC could have continued with her remember she was introduced around ep 120+?
thats 120 eps without haibara DC could still have been great! but of course because of haibara DC has become much more interesting.

Ran has done important things, but her ROLE is not important enough to be considered a main girl character. (A main girl character does not have to be the love interest, but for some reason Ran is the main heroine but has not helped change Shinchi as much as the unimportant characters, which one would assume, is what all secondary characters are supposed to do....especially the supposed heroine of the story.) Ai is the one who really changed Shinchi....Shinchi didn't need to go to tropical land to find the BO....If the BO is a crime syndicate, Shinchi woulda found them anyway cause the BO are criminals who murder people. Shinchi would have been solving those cases.

Ran makes for a sour romance partner....her scenes are so repeated. i don't call that interesting or a "romance" for that matter. Goshyo just shoved her in there to promote some school girl appearance like most animes do....for some reason they gotta have a school girl with the uniform....If Ai didn't step in we'd still be getting nowhere with the main story...the whole reason he got shrunk was because of the drug, which Ai made and she was part of the BO.  Shinchi cares about Ran, but his reasons for wanting to turn to normal is more than that. I mean if he was that desperate to turn back for Ran's sake, he would have already told her he was Conan while still in child-like body in all those episodes before he learned about the BO. But he wanted to turn back so he can take down the BO, mostly. The confession is supposed to come along with it once he does manage to turn back, but sad to say I have a feeling DC will have a cliff hanger like most long animes....You can tell by the way it cuts off in the end of OVAs and movies and even the some episodes....
Shinchi just simply wants his old life back....being a kid all over again is not easy. Especially for Kudo Shinchi-kun.........

[soratothamax]

 DC is a series with a lot of characters, Gosho doesn't really use them at all xD.  However if you take a second look you can tell he's always using these characters to say something.

Sonoko Suzuki:  The heiress to one of Japan's richest most influential families (a Zaibatsu).  We never got much from her childhood, but being one of the richest heiress in Japan isn't always a happy thing.  Despite her high position in society she attends a relatively normal school and tries to live her life as commonly as possible.  She doesn't throw her money around, she isn't forced to only hang around rich people, she walks home from school with Ran, she giggles about boys freely, and is actually very clumsy in love.  Neither her sister nor her sister's fiance is into business (art and film respectively) but we never see Sonoko pressured into taking over companies, nor is she forced to marry "competent people of her class".  

I think Sonoko being "normal" in this case is very special.  It's Gosho's little blurb on rich and poor and how you shouldn't judge people by how much money they have.  Sonoko is also a girl who gives a mask of confidence but is actually really insecure about love. You don't have to like her but I think Gosho is also justified in deciding to make her character.  Sure Gosho can make an elabourate case on her complete with B.O. story arc, it's not exactly difficult saying that a zaibatsu is corrupt and being used by the B.O. to control the Japanese market.  But does it really matter?  Do character really need a elabourate arc each just to justify their existance in a story?  I think Gosho just uses a character to say stuff during cases most of the time.  He likes using Ayumi and Ai along with Sonoko and Ran to talk about his opinions on friendship and bravery.  How you shouldn't run away if you want to conquer your fears, how friendship is fragile, how you shouldn't use your friends for money, how you should treat all your friends equally, etc... Gosho should be allowed to say these type of things, he's the mangaka : o.

Yes, they are rarely in the story. And Sonoko is "normal" but those characters aren't meant to be the "Main plot characters." They are meant to have very vague profiles and character development. The main plot characters are supposed to be the Mouris, Detective Boys, Agasa, and Ai Haibara. Out of all of those characters, Ai is the most important. That is a shame.

Ran is supposed to be the "main girl character." That means she should be the second most important character to Shinichi. But she is not.

Also, aside from that, she is not a very well developed character. Her character background doesn't evolve or change, neither is her background any different than it was before. And to top it off, she's not important to the storyline.

She needs to be replaced, or they need to make her important. She should've been the girl to make the APTX, then she would be important. JK But because she has no real importance to the story, she is not a main girl character TO ME. She is just the "love interest/childhood friend." But Goshyo keeps insisting...well, lately, I haven't seen any big cases that focus too much on Ran in the manga.

[Soragirl6]

[quote author=kirite link=topic
[/quote]

A nitpick, Gosho has nothing to do with the anime.  So if they feature say... pudding in all the openings and ending it has nothing to do with Gosho.

Maybe I'm bias because I like DC or maybe because I'm judging DC as a manga but I think all of DC's girl characters are quite strong and interesting.  Gosho always tries to create interesting female character, but then maybe I'm just comparing it to other Shounen manga in his time (I'm an old person like that).

What's wrong with an Ayumi who cries more?  With that said what's wrong with Ayumi?  Isn't her bravery and sense of justice the reason why Haibara doesn't run away anymore?

The thing is not every character has to be the star of the overarching story.  I never saw Ran as a character who will play her role that way.  I've always seen her as a character that you can throw 300 murders at and still shrug through it and go to school the next day.  As to what is her character or the whole ConanxAi thing since I don't have anything against disliking Ran (feel free! opinions FTW!) I won't bother to go into that xD.  Like I said before characters are only as deep as you like them.  But I still don't understand the literary role that you claim certain people -must- fulfill.  

If Ran really is dependent on Shinichi as you say what if Gosho just introduced her to be apart of Shinichi's character?  If that's the case then Ran's just a part of Shinichi and all "Ran" episodes are actually just "Shinichi" episodes.  It's for giving Shinichi more character depth.  Can't a "main girl character" role be used that way?

Personally I never really saw Gosho ever having a main girl character (girl character who he focuses on and develops the most).  He usually leaves his girl characters on standby character as must as possible unless it's their "story arc".  In fact for some characters he doesn't even develope them DURING their story arcs.  It's like how Shoujo manga will have these impossible guy characters  ::).  With that said Gosho always -tries- to characterise his girl characters.  A profound remark there, a smirk there, a sibling there, a omg-I'm-so-hax there.  DC is a series with a lot of characters, Gosho doesn't really use them at all xD.  However if you take a second look you can tell he's always using these characters to say something.

Sonoko Suzuki:  The heiress to one of Japan's richest most influential families (a Zaibatsu).  We never got much from her childhood, but being one of the richest heiress in Japan isn't always a happy thing.  Despite her high position in society she attends a relatively normal school and tries to live her life as commonly as possible.  She doesn't throw her money around, she isn't forced to only hang around rich people, she walks home from school with Ran, she giggles about boys freely, and is actually very clumsy in love.  Neither her sister nor her sister's fiance is into business (art and film respectively) but we never see Sonoko pressured into taking over companies, nor is she forced to marry "competent people of her class".  

I think Sonoko being "normal" in this case is very special.  It's Gosho's little blurb on rich and poor and how you shouldn't judge people by how much money they have.  Sonoko is also a girl who gives a mask of confidence but is actually really insecure about love. You don't have to like her but I think Gosho is also justified in deciding to make her character.  Sure Gosho can make an elabourate case on her complete with B.O. story arc, it's not exactly difficult saying that a zaibatsu is corrupt and being used by the B.O. to control the Japanese market.  But does it really matter?  Do character really need a elabourate arc each just to justify their existance in a story?  I think Gosho just uses a character to say stuff during cases most of the time.  He likes using Ayumi and Ai along with Sonoko and Ran to talk about his opinions on friendship and bravery.  How you shouldn't run away if you want to conquer your fears, how friendship is fragile, how you shouldn't use your friends for money, how you should treat all your friends equally, etc... Gosho should be allowed to say these type of things, he's the mangaka : o.
[/quote]

Goshyo has to have some say-so in what comes into the anime and what doesn't....he's the original creator.... He has to express to the creators of the anime how important a character is and whether or not he wants that character presented in a certain matter....

Anyway...never said nothing was wrong with Ayumi, but I'm saying that Ran's character is not unique. Thats what I'm saying and she's more unimportant than Ayumi. All writers have main heroines and heroes. Ran is supposed to be the main heroine of the story, but is failing to fill her role. Ran doesn't even do anything....so she's just there and occasionally interferes or plays D.I.D. At least Sonoko, Kogoro, and the DBoys are funny....Ran doesn't even make the romance interesting....same old scenes. "She cries, shinchi comes, he leaves, she cries...." I just predicted the next time Ran will encounter Shinchi. Its so BOOORRIINNGGG.....

Goshyo is making it harder on himself by trying to string Ran along and force her to be important by dragging he static character......he should just keep her out of the series until Shinchi comes home....nothing would really change except more excitement, more BO, more interesting cases, enhancement of characters that are cool and funny. Added a much more interesting romance. (Ai/Conan! Shinchi/Shiho!)

[Introuble]

if a char is not related to the BO does not mean she could not be a main char
the feeling vermouth has for ran can be used later on in the story. thats why gosho emphasized her guilt towards people who saved her life.anyone could have created apotoxin. gosho could have just said developed by the BO done.
ran being important to shinichi makes ran important to the storyline.not having ran would change DC a lot.

without ai conan would still have met the BO in later chapters most of this happened by coincidence right?
furthermore we still have jodie and akai and kir conan would still have connections.ai may be important but she appears less frequently compared to ran in the DC series.yeah gosho could have made a new buddy for kazuha and sonoko but kazuha and sonoko appear usually with ran. in kazuhas case she appears along with heji then conan and heji meet brining the girls together.but if gosho were to make a different girl for these two how would they be related to conan? ran is sonokos school buddy and kazuha and ran meet because heji and conan meet. but if ran were a different girl not being shinichis gf/someone living with him how could gosho replace that? yes ran could just become a best friend but passing by or meeting up with conan always?or if she did with kogoro being his daughter it wouldnt really sound so great.conan would be better of living with agasa.

ran is not pointless she is very important to the storyline maybe not really important in the BO plot but the vermouth guilt towards ran is obviously something gosho would use later on in the story. sooner or later hopefully in the last chaps of DC ran would be part in a way.and hopefully kogoro will finally win a horse race

[Introuble]

[quote author=kirite link=topic

A nitpick, Gosho has nothing to do with the anime.  So if they feature say... pudding in all the openings and ending it has nothing to do with Gosho.

Maybe I'm bias because I like DC or maybe because I'm judging DC as a manga but I think all of DC's girl characters are quite strong and interesting.  Gosho always tries to create interesting female character, but then maybe I'm just comparing it to other Shounen manga in his time (I'm an old person like that).

What's wrong with an Ayumi who cries more?  With that said what's wrong with Ayumi?  Isn't her bravery and sense of justice the reason why Haibara doesn't run away anymore?

The thing is not every character has to be the star of the overarching story.  I never saw Ran as a character who will play her role that way.  I've always seen her as a character that you can throw 300 murders at and still shrug through it and go to school the next day.  As to what is her character or the whole ConanxAi thing since I don't have anything against disliking Ran (feel free! opinions FTW!) I won't bother to go into that xD.  Like I said before characters are only as deep as you like them.  But I still don't understand the literary role that you claim certain people -must- fulfill.  

If Ran really is dependent on Shinichi as you say what if Gosho just introduced her to be apart of Shinichi's character?  If that's the case then Ran's just a part of Shinichi and all "Ran" episodes are actually just "Shinichi" episodes.  It's for giving Shinichi more character depth.  Can't a "main girl character" role be used that way?

Personally I never really saw Gosho ever having a main girl character (girl character who he focuses on and develops the most).  He usually leaves his girl characters on standby character as must as possible unless it's their "story arc".  In fact for some characters he doesn't even develope them DURING their story arcs.  It's like how Shoujo manga will have these impossible guy characters  ::).  With that said Gosho always -tries- to characterise his girl characters.  A profound remark there, a smirk there, a sibling there, a omg-I'm-so-hax there.  DC is a series with a lot of characters, Gosho doesn't really use them at all xD.  However if you take a second look you can tell he's always using these characters to say something.

Sonoko Suzuki:  The heiress to one of Japan's richest most influential families (a Zaibatsu).  We never got much from her childhood, but being one of the richest heiress in Japan isn't always a happy thing.  Despite her high position in society she attends a relatively normal school and tries to live her life as commonly as possible.  She doesn't throw her money around, she isn't forced to only hang around rich people, she walks home from school with Ran, she giggles about boys freely, and is actually very clumsy in love.  Neither her sister nor her sister's fiance is into business (art and film respectively) but we never see Sonoko pressured into taking over companies, nor is she forced to marry "competent people of her class".  

I think Sonoko being "normal" in this case is very special.  It's Gosho's little blurb on rich and poor and how you shouldn't judge people by how much money they have.  Sonoko is also a girl who gives a mask of confidence but is actually really insecure about love. You don't have to like her but I think Gosho is also justified in deciding to make her character.  Sure Gosho can make an elabourate case on her complete with B.O. story arc, it's not exactly difficult saying that a zaibatsu is corrupt and being used by the B.O. to control the Japanese market.  But does it really matter?  Do character really need a elabourate arc each just to justify their existance in a story?  I think Gosho just uses a character to say stuff during cases most of the time.  He likes using Ayumi and Ai along with Sonoko and Ran to talk about his opinions on friendship and bravery.  How you shouldn't run away if you want to conquer your fears, how friendship is fragile, how you shouldn't use your friends for money, how you should treat all your friends equally, etc... Gosho should be allowed to say these type of things, he's the mangaka : o.
[/quote]

Goshyo has to have some say-so in what comes into the anime and what doesn't....he's the original creator.... He has to express to the creators of the anime how important a character is and whether or not he wants that character presented in a certain matter....

Anyway...never said nothing was wrong with Ayumi, but I'm saying that Ran's character is not unique. Thats what I'm saying and she's more unimportant than Ayumi. All writers have main heroines and heroes. Ran is supposed to be the main heroine of the story, but is failing to fill her role. Ran doesn't even do anything....so she's just there and occasionally interferes or plays D.I.D. At least Sonoko, Kogoro, and the DBoys are funny....Ran doesn't even make the romance interesting....same old scenes. "She cries, shinchi comes, he leaves, she cries...." I just predicted the next time Ran will encounter Shinchi. Its so BOOORRIINNGGG.....

Goshyo is making it harder on himself by trying to string Ran along and force her to be important by dragging he static character......he should just keep her out of the series until Shinchi comes home....nothing would really change except more excitement, more BO, more interesting cases, enhancement of characters that are cool and funny. Added a much more interesting romance. (Ai/Conan! Shinchi/Shiho!)
[/quote]

so im guessing for you ran is just some useless wallpaper put up? i agree that shinichi and rans romance is not unique its the same old thing i know that. but DC is not really about romance is it? Detective Conan.so dont blame gosho for choosing the same old romance story its his style and some people still go for the old school romance.....and the same old romance story = boring? thats your opinion.but one thing for sure gosho will end this anime shinxran and it will be a blast