Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Or you can saw the cake or even run the knife under warm water. Either option would work. I think the knife is ultimately not the point of the case, though.
3DS FC: 4699-5851-2068
I might wake up early and go running. I also might wake up and win the lottery. The odds are about the same.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
As for the victim's death, is it really that easy to get completely trapped in in 2 meters of freshly fallen snow? Thoughts from cold climate forumers?
but if the snow is freshly fallen and only around a foot above your head, you can easily compress the snow around you to make a small clearing around you. While it won't amount to much immediately, it solves the main issue of losing body heat via snow contact, and as long as you're wearing winter clothes (as it looks like he is in the picture)
That's what I thought, but I have less experience around multi-meter thick large volumes of snow than I would like. He could have probably "dug up" by compacting the snow around him until he was splayed on top and then "commando crawled" out on the surface to minimize sinkage until he could reach the wall and bang on it. If he jumped in, there should be an entry hole above him, rather than getting buried which is a bigger problem.
Well, I guess if you panic, then you can die in almost any circumstance.
well that's well that might be oversimplifying it a bit, because even if you commando crawl, depending on the type of snow (like fresh powder snow) it can easily give way, and unlike smaller amounts of snow, the second you break through the top of a tall fresh bit of powdered snow, you might be falling quite a ways down. And once you've fallen through a patch of snow while crawling, you pretty much have to stop crawling anyway and start the process over so you can get back up.
Not to mention, any efforts to compact the snow around him and then get on top of all 2 meters would probably not be that successful for obvious reasons, unless he took snow from one area to another in order to build a ramp up to the top.
---
as far as the knife and ice cream cake goes, I'm really interested in what type of machinery people bust out for their ice cream cakes, because I've eaten plenty of ice cream cakes before with just a fork and a knife like that. If it's a plastic knife then sure, it might be a problem, but even eating an ice cream cake with just a metal fork is doable, the knife is just extra.
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
As for the victim's death, is it really that easy to get completely trapped in in 2 meters of freshly fallen snow? Thoughts from cold climate forumers?
but if the snow is freshly fallen and only around a foot above your head, you can easily compress the snow around you to make a small clearing around you. While it won't amount to much immediately, it solves the main issue of losing body heat via snow contact, and as long as you're wearing winter clothes (as it looks like he is in the picture)
That's what I thought, but I have less experience around multi-meter thick large volumes of snow than I would like. He could have probably "dug up" by compacting the snow around him until he was splayed on top and then "commando crawled" out on the surface to minimize sinkage until he could reach the wall and bang on it. If he jumped in, there should be an entry hole above him, rather than getting buried which is a bigger problem.
Well, I guess if you panic, then you can die in almost any circumstance.
well that's well that might be oversimplifying it a bit, because even if you commando crawl, depending on the type of snow (like fresh powder snow) it can easily give way, and unlike smaller amounts of snow, the second you break through the top of a tall fresh bit of powdered snow, you might be falling quite a ways down. And once you've fallen through a patch of snow while crawling, you pretty much have to stop crawling anyway and start the process over so you can get back up.
Not to mention, any efforts to compact the snow around him and then get on top of all 2 meters would probably not be that successful for obvious reasons, unless he took snow from one area to another in order to build a ramp up to the top.
---
as far as the knife and ice cream cake goes, I'm really interested in what type of machinery people bust out for their ice cream cakes, because I've eaten plenty of ice cream cakes before with just a fork and a knife like that. If it's a plastic knife then sure, it might be a problem, but even eating an ice cream cake with just a metal fork is doable, the knife is just extra.
I've only ever eaten ice cream cakes with those cheap, plastic throw-away spoons...
"I suppose he could have changed. I myself have noticed my growing resemblance to a daffodil.”
3DS Friend Code: 2723-9258-9521
Akonyl wrote:
as far as the knife and ice cream cake goes, I'm really interested in what type of machinery people bust out for their ice cream cakes...
A fork only. If it was mostly liquid, then I might use a spoon.
TRANSPORTING BY AUTO OR VAN
Plan to pick up the Dry Ice as close to the time it is needed as possible. If possible pack insulating items such as sleeping bags around the ice chest. This will stretch the time that the Dry Ice lasts. If it is transported inside a car or van (not in the trunk) for more than 10 minutes make sure there is fresh air. After 15 minutes with Dry Ice only in its paper bag in the passenger seat next to me, I started to breathe faster and faster as though I were running a race. I couldn't figure out why I was so out of breath until I saw the car air system was set in the re-circulated position, not fresh outside air.
As Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air it sinks. The room was air tight but for under the door.
VENTILATION
Normal air is 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen and only 0.035% Carbon Dioxide. If the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air rises above 0.5%, carbon dioxide can become dangerous. Smaller concentrations can cause quicker breathing, but is otherwise not harmful. If Dry Ice has been in a closed auto, van, room, or walk in for more than 10 minutes, open doors and allow adequate ventilation before entering. Leave area containing Dry Ice if you start to pant and breath quickly or your fingernails or lips start to turn blue. This is the sign that you have breathed in too much CO2 and not enough oxygen. Dry Ice CO2 is heavier than air and will accumulate in low spaces.
Note the word room. Conan was likely in that room for over two hours.
And Also this. From here
1kg of dry ice will produce 0.45 m3 of gas (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd.).
Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 1% of total mass per hour in an insulated container (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: Federal Aviation Administration in USA).
Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 14% of total mass per hour at room temperature in the open (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: a study published in Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine 1977).
Note that 0.45 m3 is equal to 15.8916 cubic feet. Please explain why Conan is still Alive.
The problem is that homes are not really air tight. Otherwise, if you shut your door to your room and stuffed a towel under it, you would die from oxygen deprivation. That's never happened in my experience of hating to get to sleep when I can see any light at all. Most houses have ventilation, especially for central heating in cold places. If putting dry ice in a closed door room really killed you in two hours, I honestly should be dead at this very moment. It's one thing to dump a bunch of carbon dioxide gas in a room at once, but in this case it's bleeding out over hours.
You can even use the numbers you provided to show why Conan didn't die.
The air conditioning had been on when Conan came in so assume the CO2 build up was negligible because of air circulation. Using the dead body as a measuring stick, the room is probably around 12' by 15' by 8' so, 1440 cubic feet, or 41 cubic meters. Although there should be less than a kg of dry ice in the container because the cake has been there since yesterday, and cake places don't like to give out that much dry ice, let's assume there is 1 kg anyway. If the dry ice is putting out ~28% of its mass in two hours (14% x 2hours) starting from a kg of dry ice (let's assume overkill here), that means 0.28 kg is getting dumped into the air over that time. 28% of 0.45 m3 is 0.126 m3 or about 0.3% of 41 cubic meters which is below your figure of 0.5%. Naturally this figure will be (probably a lot) lower because of air circulation out of the room, and more CO2 will collect near the floor rather than at bed level.
sstimson wrote:
Spoiler:
In summary 1) It sublimate fast meaning a simple ice cube size would be gone before they got out of the room.
2) The amount of gas released should have killed Conan.
3) If the gas is not kept in a certain type of container, it will sublimate and the vapor pressure will cause a small explosion. This would have been heard the night before.
1) This is simply wrong. You would know it was incorrect if you ever worked with dry ice. An icecube sized piece (let's call it one inch squared) can take minutes to sublimate even if you chuck it in hot water. It sublimates much slower in air.
2) Shown above
3) It would have to be an airtight, pressure resistant container for the ice to explode. Cake boxes are not airtight.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on May 13th, 2013, 5:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Commi-Ninja wrote:
Or you can saw the cake or even run the knife under warm water. Either option would work. I think the knife is ultimately not the point of the case, though.
I think we all realize that.
pofa wrote: I have never done a single thing wrong in mafia, never one lie or act of violence
Akonyl wrote:
as far as the knife and ice cream cake goes, I'm really interested in what type of machinery people bust out for their ice cream cakes...
A fork only. If it was mostly liquid, then I might use a spoon.
right, I was more directing that sentence at the people who claim that a simple metal dinner knife isn't enough to cut a frozen ice cream cake with, as if you'd need some sort of chisel/jackhammer to make a dent in it
Kor wrote:
Come to think of it, too bad we didn't get a "Sleeping Amuro" (by a mistake), since I'm kinda interested what Conan would have done in that scenario
Dude, Amuro kinda put his EYE in the crosshairs. That would've been... messy.
Just me or is Vermouth taking a lot of baths lately? She read a some Douglas Adams essay and decide that all good judgement is done in the bath or something?
I'd say it's sad that Conan's blowing his cover again but well he really sucks had hiding that from anyone smart. Heck he didn't even try to hide it from Kid.
wait when they say series they mean next case right. Kaito's not cameoing in some new comic someone is doing?
Fixed - Before you tell me I got a mistake in converting 1kg in to X cubic meters of Gas, I already know and Am working on getting that corrected
Done - Need to figure out why 10kg of Dry Ice Sublimates in to 5.4 Cubic Meters of Gas. Maybe done but now new questions
1cc (Cubic Centimeter) of Dry Ice is 83.1837 Liters Of CO2 or 83183.7 cc (Cubic Centimeters) of CO2 and 0.0831837 CM (Cubic Meters)
So to find out how much gas comes from a X of Dry Ice, convert that to Cubic Centimeters of Dry Ice and Multiply by 0.0831837 to get Cubic Meters of Carbon Dioxide Gas
TRANSPORTING BY AUTO OR VAN
Plan to pick up the Dry Ice as close to the time it is needed as possible. If possible pack insulating items such as sleeping bags around the ice chest. This will stretch the time that the Dry Ice lasts. If it is transported inside a car or van (not in the trunk) for more than 10 minutes make sure there is fresh air. After 15 minutes with Dry Ice only in its paper bag in the passenger seat next to me, I started to breathe faster and faster as though I were running a race. I couldn't figure out why I was so out of breath until I saw the car air system was set in the re-circulated position, not fresh outside air.
As Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air it sinks. The room was air tight but for under the door.
VENTILATION
Normal air is 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen and only 0.035% Carbon Dioxide. If the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air rises above 0.5%, carbon dioxide can become dangerous. Smaller concentrations can cause quicker breathing, but is otherwise not harmful. If Dry Ice has been in a closed auto, van, room, or walk in for more than 10 minutes, open doors and allow adequate ventilation before entering. Leave area containing Dry Ice if you start to pant and breath quickly or your fingernails or lips start to turn blue. This is the sign that you have breathed in too much CO2 and not enough oxygen. Dry Ice CO2 is heavier than air and will accumulate in low spaces.
Note the word room. Conan was likely in that room for over two hours.
And Also this. From here
1kg of dry ice will produce 0.45 m3 of gas (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd.).
Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 1% of total mass per hour in an insulated container (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: Federal Aviation Administration in USA).
Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 14% of total mass per hour at room temperature in the open (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: a study published in Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine 1977).
Note that 0.45 m3 is equal to 15.8916 cubic feet. Please explain why Conan is still Alive.[/spoiler]
The problem is that homes are not really air tight. Otherwise, if you shut your door to your room and stuffed a towel under it, you would die from oxygen deprivation. That's never happened in my experience of hating to get to sleep when I can see any light at all. Most houses have ventilation, especially for central heating in cold places. If putting dry ice in a closed door room really killed you in two hours, I honestly should be dead at this very moment. It's one thing to dump a bunch of carbon dioxide gas in a room at once, but in this case it's bleeding out over hours.
You can even use the numbers you provided to show why Conan didn't die.
The air conditioning had been on when Conan came in so assume the CO2 build up was negligible because of air circulation. Using the dead body as a measuring stick, the room is probably around 12' by 15' by 8' so, 1440 cubic feet, or 41 cubic meters. Although there should be less than a kg of dry ice in the container because the cake has been there since yesterday, and cake places don't like to give out that much dry ice, let's assume there is 1 kg anyway. If the dry ice is putting out ~28% of its mass in two hours (14% x 2hours) starting from a kg of dry ice (let's assume overkill here), that means 0.28 kg is getting dumped into the air over that time. 28% of 0.45 m3 is 0.126 m3 or about 0.3% of 41 cubic meters which is below your figure of 0.5%. Naturally this figure will be (probably a lot) lower because of air circulation out of the room, and more CO2 will collect near the floor rather than at bed level.[/quote]
First one on the list is these - High Density Dry Ice Pellets - 1/8" diameter dry ice pellets -Too small to move a body right?
Next one - Dry Ice Rice Pellets - 1/4" diameter dry ice pellets - Still too small, right?
Next one - Dry Ice Standard Pellets - 1/2" diameter dry ice pellets - About Ice cube size but still too small, right?
Next one - Cut Blocks of Dry Ice - ?"(2)? x 10" x 12" - This should be the one used
However the blocks are a little large to fit four on a tennis racket. After all the only area to lose some but not all of the friction from body weight is the area where the Dry Ice is, ever where else would have the normal friction.
The Volume would be if say the block is cut into 5 sections 2X10=20X12=240 Cubic Inches which is 3932.895 Cubic Centimeters Cubic In to cm's Next convert Cubic centimeters to grams from Here shows that 1 cc is about 1.5 grams so 3932.895 cc is 5899.34 grams or 5.89934 kilograms which would make 327.153 Cubic Meters of Gas based on an
How many grams of CO2 are in one cc of dry ice? The density of dry ice is about 1.5 g/mL, so 1 cc is about 1.5 g CO2.
How many moles of CO2 are in that number of grams? The molecular weight of CO2 is about 44 g/mol, so 1.5 g is
1.5 g CO2 × ( 1 mol CO244 g CO2 ) = 0.034091 mol CO2
What volume of gas contains that many moles of gas? Assume that the gas behaves ideally. At room pressure (about 1 atm) and temperature (about 25°C, or 298 K),
V = nRT/P
V = (0.034 mol × 0.0821 L atm mol-1 K-1 × 298 K)/(1 atm)
V = 8.3 × 10-1 L and that 1L = 0.001 Cubic meters
Which is where this comes from
Expansion ratio (relative increase in volume when evaporating to gas) for dry ice is 845
From Here Even if 100 cubic meters leaves the room under the door and another 100 cubic meters leave the room through cracks, that still leaves 127.153 cubic meters of Carbon Dioxide And remember this is only one square. Multiply that by four for the true volume of carbon dioxide sublimated. Also Remember as "quote - No sign of Dry Ice being used - unquote" 100% of that cube went into the air. As Conan would have been likely between 1 meter and 1 & 1/3 meters Using your room size air volume of that room is 1 meter X 4 Meters (12 Feet) X 5 Meters (15 feet) or 20 Cubic meters as anything above Conan's Head does not matter and Carbon Dioxide sinks. For fun lets say that the Co2 mixes evenly is the entire room thought to continue the easy conversion (3 feet is about 1 meter) instead of 8 feet make it 9 feet or 3 meters and that makes the room 60 cubic meters. Another Ad-Hoc. It seem to me to even have a enough Dry Ice after it was Bought and assuming the Dry ice was bought separately, then the Cake was allowed to melt out of the box overnight and the dry ice put inside. If the killer bought enough Dry Ice then even after the overnight period, there would still be enough Dry Ice to use. Another Ad-Hoc even though it does not appear in the Manga, also certain would be a picnic type cooler with the Dry ice wrapped in like a newspaper. This would greatly slow down the sublimation of the Dry Ice. Again going with you numbers even though we know that 100% of the Dry Ice sublimated. We get 327.153*.28=91.6028 m3 gas. You see you are forgetting a very important fact - Expansion ratio of the gas. A tight container like around 2kg releases a lot of gas. That should put it in the greater then .5 for the whole room. (More like over 100% for the whole room)
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sstimson wrote:
Spoiler:
In summary 1) It sublimate fast meaning a simple ice cube size would be gone before they got out of the room.
2) The amount of gas released should have killed Conan.
3) If the gas is not kept in a certain type of container, it will sublimate and the vapor pressure will cause a small explosion. This would have been heard the night before.
1) This is simply wrong. You would know it was incorrect if you ever worked with dry ice. An icecube sized piece (let's call it one inch squared) can take minutes to sublimate even if you chuck it in hot water. It sublimates much slower in air.
2) Shown above
3) It would have to be an airtight, pressure resistant container for the ice to explode. Cake boxes are not airtight.
1) I am not going to completely disagree here. I only ask how long do you think the setup took. I would guess at best a low figure of ten minutes. You just said it can take minutes to sublimate an Ice Cube Sized Piece which I take to mean less then ten minutes meaning the Ice cube piece is gone just as she is closing the door.
2) Yes shown above. Remember you forgot the Expansion ratio.
3) Agreed. So if out on the counter all night yes you are right, but what about a freezer? Experiments show with time the Dry Ice continues to sublimates and again remembering the expansion ratio will because of vapor pressure force the freezer door open.
Giogio wrote:
Hmm, to in my chemist's eyes that solution looks strange.
I think ice is slippery because it has a thin layer of melted water on it. Dry ice, though, turns directly into gas when "melting". It shouldn't be slippery enough to push a body around. Not without leaving scratches on the floor. Well, you could argue that the surface where it touches the floor will become relatively even, but still...
From personal experience, the gas that has sublimated from the warm contact points underneath creates pockets that act as cushions of air and allow sliding. It works better when the dry ice is already smooth. I never tried to apply that much weight to a dry ice cube though, so it could be difficult to slide and scraping might result. I'd have to try.
Bonus trivia: putting warm metal on dry ice makes a decent screaming sound.
Giogio wrote:
Also, the frozen sports drink... Supercooled water is a cool idea, but you need a very clean bottle and distilled water for that. A sports drink won't work, I think.
Wow, with beer? It had thought the solutes bring in enough crystal nuclei, but in this case I take everything back ^^
About the dry ice - of course it floats around on its own CO2 if it's just a light piece. But with a > 100kg guy sitting on four small pieces, I can't imagine it wouldn't touch the floor often enough to make some sort of scratches. Don't have any of it ready for testing it out, though.
However, there's a bigger contra: The guy's body had to be on dry ice for at least a minute. You can touch it for a very short period of time without taking damage, but after that time even with sports wear (which should be sorta thin), his skin must have frozen. Autopsy must have shown he has some spots of freezer burn on his butt, right?
Giogio wrote:
Hmm, to in my chemist's eyes that solution looks strange.
I think ice is slippery because it has a thin layer of melted water on it. Dry ice, though, turns directly into gas when "melting". It shouldn't be slippery enough to push a body around. Not without leaving scratches on the floor. Well, you could argue that the surface where it touches the floor will become relatively even, but still...
From personal experience, the gas that has sublimated from the warm contact points underneath creates pockets that act as cushions of air and allow sliding. It works better when the dry ice is already smooth. I never tried to apply that much weight to a dry ice cube though, so it could be difficult to slide and scraping might result. I'd have to try.
Bonus trivia: putting warm metal on dry ice makes a decent screaming sound.
Giogio wrote:
Also, the frozen sports drink... Supercooled water is a cool idea, but you need a very clean bottle and distilled water for that. A sports drink won't work, I think.
Wow, with beer? It had thought the solutes bring in enough crystal nuclei, but in this case I take everything back ^^
About the dry ice - of course it floats around on its own CO2 if it's just a light piece. But with a > 100kg guy sitting on four small pieces, I can't imagine it wouldn't touch the floor often enough to make some sort of scratches. Don't have any of it ready for testing it out, though.
However, there's a bigger contra: The guy's body had to be on dry ice for at least a minute. You can touch it for a very short period of time without taking damage, but after that time even with sports wear (which should be sorta thin), his skin must have frozen. Autopsy must have shown he has some spots of freezer burn on his butt, right?
Although I'm not sure how exactly Mohs hardness and Janka hardness measure up to each other, dry ice has a Mohs hardness of approx 2, on par with fingernails. So, the idea that it wouldn't scratch the floor when it has a bit of its own gas offsetting the weight isn't too far-fetched to me, especially if the floor was made with one of the harder woods. I imagine that much like with normal ice, since the application of pressure creates heat, it would also sublimate at a somewhat faster rate and have a larger "cushion" of sublimated gas.
as for the skin taking damage, I thought that as well, but then there's also the question of the dry ice being on the other side of the tennis racket mesh. I don't know exactly how much the separation would help him, but that might also reduce the amount of freezing on the body itself.
