Why do people dislike Ran?

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Kleene Onigiri
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

kkslider5552000 wrote:
Kleene Onigiri wrote: I'm not sure why you think Haibara's reaction was a minor point. I think she doesn't have the same morals views as Shinichi and Ran. She wouldn't help others without a reason and thus she also wouldn't easily forgive others (and she also doesn't forgive herself so easily I guess? :/ )
Well it's minor in the sense that that ending is so horribad that any thoughts about it beyond that get sucked into a black hole, never to be seen again. There is no way I can see it as anything other than a contradiction to the series itself. There's justification for why it exists in terms of the characters and story I'm sure, but the execution doesn't fit even my most open-minded look at how these characters and this story is like.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but he did not really pay for his crime. Especially taking into account how HORRIBLY DARK it could've ended up as.

Though I feel you did sum up one of the big problems of the series, that Gosho sometimes focuses on his own character's archetype instead of how they differ from an archetype.
Maybe I understood you wrong then? I thought you meant that Haibara's reaction is minor? Or do you mean the whole case is just "out of the normal stories", so you can't use it?

Because then you could also disregard the Tori case, because Gosho usually says in his cases that there is nothing supernatural going on and everything can be explained with logic. So the fortunetelling would go that way too. (and it's really the first time Ran tries to change herself based on fortunetelling and never did that before or after)
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by kkslider5552000 »

Well it does fit the reactions of the people being superstitious. Let's be honest, it has nothing to do with supernatural anything, it's at most, contrived writing.

The difference being is that it sadly fits what Ran is doing, much as I'd prefer it not to be. There's a big difference between a character going in a worst written direction and a character straight up going against their ideals in a situation no one would (either that or the implications make Shinichi have opinions that worry me more than Ran ever has, by a country mile perhaps!) It's a personal thing I guess, it's just that one at least fits, and the other doesn't. Which means it's easier for me to ignore, because it's out of nowhere instead of a build-up of questionable characterization.
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

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Actually, the way Conan and Haibara (and Takagi) reacted actually fit to the way they acted in other cases?
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by kkslider5552000 »

Kleene Onigiri wrote:Actually, the way Conan and Haibara (and Takagi) reacted actually fit to the way they acted in other cases?
How?
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

kkslider5552000 wrote:
Kleene Onigiri wrote:Actually, the way Conan and Haibara (and Takagi) reacted actually fit to the way they acted in other cases?
How?
Well, I already gave some examples for Conan. Also, Chapter 29, the case were that one father gives out all those old toys to the doctor and the culprit tries to kill the doctors son for revenge. Here the doctor stops Kogoro/Ran from calling the police, because the doctor also forgives the culprit. Conan doesn't urge to call the police and get "justice".
For Takagi, I think there was a case where he rushed off to stop a culprit from doing suicide or something? (if I remember right) It shows that Takagi cares about culprits too (kinda like Conan). There weren't many similar cases like it to compare actually.
Haibara is harder to figure out, honestly. Since it's not shown much what Haibara thinks (at all, we basically just know for sure she likes Conan, the DBs and Agasa D:) In cases where animals were involved she showed that she cares more about the animals than humans. So in a way, her being harsh to culprits/humans isn't contradicting with her character imo. She's also cautious around strangers but kind (or kinder with newer episodes) to people she warmed up to. So overall Haibara is harsher/stricter than Conan, Ran or Takagi.
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Suhooo »

Kleene Onigiri wrote:So what's your message Suhooo? (i like your 3 o's)

So you don't like it that Ran is not violent aka not using her karate or using force and also too trustful of shinichi (1.)
but at the same time, you think Ran is too violent, uses her karate too much/violently and is not trusting shinichi (2.) enough?

...?

The problem with your 2 point is, that you look at ran at different times.
1. is Ran in the newer episodes and 2. is Ran in the earlier (or even very early) episodes.

The point where Ran uses her karate to smash objects like doors or a pole were very early in the manga, where Ran's character wasn't even established fully (and it changed a bit too). Also, in that "old time" mangas often used violence as a comedy effect. Gosho stopped used that comedy effect later on (although poor conan still got a lot of bumps on his head from kogoro)
So it's hard to compare that to the newer episodes (it's like complaining that the bento-fax machine from agasa isn't in the newest episodes anymore XD)
Yet the fact that Ran DID behave in that way is not affected. I can see that I did not reach to my conclusion in my previous post, so I'll say it now:

Ran's actions/thoughts are sometimes contradicted. At one time, she says that she will always believe in Shinichi and wait for him. And in these cases, Ran suspects Shinichi for dumping(?) her and gets furious. Her reaction is extreme too, because despite the old trend that violence is commonly used, it does not alter the violent impression it conveys. (At least for me, it does not. There are better ways to describe her other than smashing the innocent door.)

Why would Gosho have not decided her characteristics until then? Especially when she was the only main female character. It was 3 years after DC was first published. (Is 3 years not enough for him? :/)


And everyone is complaining about that Tori with that fortune thingy case... I didn't like how Ran acted here either. But that case wasn't about showing character development. Gosho usually likes to educate his readers. And in Japan a lot of female teenagers read horoscopes and fortunes and such stuff (not sure, maybe even more than in the western world?). So he wanted to show to the reader, that you should stay true to yourself (tho it was Rans fortune that told her that :x).
It was showing character development, according to your later post. Even though the episode was trying to say that she should stay with her characteristics, the fact that she did try to change her characteristics into a more 'traditional domestic Japanese woman' looked too artificial. She did not fight against the gangsters, only because the fortunetelling told her not to do so (which looks weird to me- both the fortunetelling paper itself and her reaction). She may have fought against them if it wasn't for Shinichi- the fortunetelling said that if you don't follow what's written, you'll fail to get a husband/boyfriend.

The 2 points, where you complain about Ran being too jealous but at the same time believing in Shinichi coming back(2.) are also at 2 different times in the manga. The jealous parts is very early (the one where the the girl pretends to be Shinichi's girlfriend) and the one where Conan gets a message or something is also quite early in the manga. Here Shinichi just disappeared some time ago and Shinichi didn't really had much contact with her yet. I think shinichi just phoned her and didn't show up as his "big self" personally yet at all. (just his shadow XD) So Ran was worried a lot about him and then she learns that he has a girlfriend and she flipped XD
Later on Shinichi actually shows Ran that he's worried about her but that he just can't come back yet. That's why she starts to trust him and is waiting for him (she might not have done so if shinichi didn't show his loyalty maybe?)
Looks like you mistook the time when these episodes were released. The first one was indeed early, but Shinichi still made phone calls to assure her that he will return before this episode. (I believe there were several times.) The latter one, episode #398~399(~400) was released after 10 years the DC was first published. 10 years! It's after the time when Shinichi actually returned to her with his original self in 'the Desperate Revival', and he kept sending phone calls and text messages to Ran, saying that she should trust him and he will eventually return, which Ran responds sth like 'Sure, I will, as I always did.'
Suhooo wrote: Who would not let the police arrest the criminal when everyone's life is at risk? She justifies her action as 'because Shinichi would never have let anyone die in front of him', which shows that Ran just accepted Shinichi's way of thinking, and that is not justifiable.
I don't agree with that part.
We saw in the New York Case (Golden Apple case) that Ran saved a person who then murdered someone else. The culprit guild tripped Ran afterwards, telling her that she could only kill that guy because Ran saved her (or something like that). I think everyone would be shocked to hear that.
So Ran was depressed and confused. Then Ran and Shinichi encountered that serial killer (who was Vermouth) and Ran also immediately reacted and saved Vermouth from falling. (shinichi helping out) Vermouth, confused why she was saved, asked for the reason. Ran didn't know why (still confused because of the guilt tripping), but Shinichi agreed with Ran's action that you don't need a reason to help another person.
But then why should she save the criminal? I mean everyone was on the verge of being killed by explosion, and if the case would be easily resolved by arresting/killing only the criminal, that's pretty reasonable. There was no reason why Ran had to save his life, which just dragged the episode until when Ran eventually kicked him to let him be arrested.
"I will not let anybody die in front of me, but I will kick him and hurt him myself, just to avoid him from being dead."
Huh?

Ran never "just accepted Shinichi's way of thinking", she always thought the same way on her own, from the start. But Shinichi was the one that encouraged her to stay like that and told her that she doesn't need a reason to help others.

Personally, I love Ran for that thinking. I like how she saved the culprit that was about to be sniped instead of just watching him die. She didn't want to be saved when someone else has to die for that when there is still another possibility. And if Ran didn't do it, Shinichi would definitely have saved the culprit, telling him to not stand too close to the windows because he might get sniped. (you can see that with Conan/Shinichi's reaction to what Sera was saying in order to lure the culprit to the windows)
Another problem is that she justifies her action by saying, "Because Shinichi would not have allowed anyone to die in front of him." If she acted based on her OWN judgement, she should've said, "Because I will not allow anyone to die in front of me." This line proves that she is deeply influenced by Shinichi, and that this is not really her own decision. Not to mention that this thought disturbs some people.
Conan also once convinced Takagi to not arrest an attempted murder. There was this one man that tried to kill his pregnant wife because of some misunderstanding (he was stressed or something?) but failed to kill her. His wife forgave him and the culprit showed remorse too. Takagi agreed with conan, tho Haibara disagreed (although Haibara herself created a poison and was in an evil organization... which would mean Haibara should be arrested to according to her own logic? Her reaction made me dislike her)
Well, you should not ignore that Haibara was forced to create the poison by the BO, and she never liked her life in it. Haibara seems to be reproaching herself, and it is implied when she always stays awake till late night. What other reason can we think, other than she was trying to make the antidote of APTX?
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Kleene Onigiri »

Why would Gosho have not decided her characteristics until then? Especially when she was the only main female character. It was 3 years after DC was first published. (Is 3 years not enough for him? :/)
Because before DC, there was magic kaito (which didn't work out so well at first). Ran and shinichi were kinda copies from Kaito and Aoko, just that Rans and Shinichi's hair weren't that unruly XD
Shinichi was arrogant + a womanizer. This changed over time, he's still perverted sometimes but not really a womanizer like Kaito. He also got less arrogant over time through character development.
Ran was also more like Aoko the first early chapters. She was smashing stuff out of anger more likely and got into fights with Shinichi XD But Gosho made Ran a lot calmer early on and figured out her character, which wasn't a 99.99% clone from Aoko's anymore.
BUT Ran isn't a totally passive and calm character. If she's in danger or angry she is speaking up or beating up gangsters etc.
Ran's actions/thoughts are sometimes contradicted. At one time, she says that she will always believe in Shinichi and wait for him. And in these cases, Ran suspects Shinichi for dumping(?) her and gets furious. Her reaction is extreme too, because despite the old trend that violence is commonly used, it does not alter the violent impression it conveys. (At least for me, it does not. There are better ways to describe her other than smashing the innocent door.)
Following what I said before, Ran is a character who's calm but also energetic and active. And she's also emotional so her bursting into anger or tears when she feels hurt or betrayed isn't contradictory at all.
And the case you mentioned [399~ something) is where Conan receives the text message instead of "shinichi". If she wouldn't have been fooled all the time to think that Shinichi is not Conan, she would have thought that at first. But since she doesn't believe that anymore, the next plausible explanation for her was, that Shinichi is cheating XD
I guess she also get's pissed because of her mom and dad. She sees Kogoro womanizing a lot and she wants Kogoro and Eri to get back together. So if she imagines that Shinichi might be a womanizer too, and could be like Kogoro, she get's pissed at that XD
So, no, it's not really contradictory with her character. There is nothing wrong with trusting someone, but getting angry at possible "evidence" that someone is unfaithful.
It was showing character development, according to your later post.
Eh? In my post I said Gosho wanted to deliver a message to the (female) teenage readers, that you should stay the way you are and not try to change your character for the one you love. I didn't say it's character development. I even said that Sonoko actually urged her to do it.
There was no reason why Ran had to save his life
Exactly. Because she doesn't need a reason.
"I will not let anybody die in front of me, but I will kick him and hurt him myself, just to avoid him from being dead."
Because being dead is so much better than being knocked out...
Another problem is that she justifies her action by saying, "Because Shinichi would not have allowed anyone to die in front of him." If she acted based on her OWN judgement, she should've said, "Because I will not allow anyone to die in front of me." This line proves that she is deeply influenced by Shinichi, and that this is not really her own decision. Not to mention that this thought disturbs some people.
I already explained that Ran had this judgement on her own and that she's happy that Shinichi thinks the same way.
All that sentence from her shows is, that Ran is really fond of Shinichi and that she thinks about Shinichi a lot (especially since he's currently on the phone too).

Also, Haibara did something similar once too, but no once seems to care about that?
In the Manga File 400 (Torn Freindship) Haibara says: "You can never buy people's hearts with money" and after the DBs say it was cool from her to say that Haibara answers: "It was a ready made opinion" and there are also flashbacks where she remembers what Conan said.
But here Haibara doesn't even say who she got that from. Haibara was influenced by Conan and it's not clear if she thought the same before or started to think like that after Conan said so.

So if it's fine for Haibara to adapt someones opinion then it should be fine for Ran too. And I think there is nothing wrong in having a role model or agreeing with someones way of thinking and adapting it.


It's strange that Ran get's negative response for something that Haibara also does.
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by megamind1988 »

not only ran is sweet and compassive also ayumi yoshida is that way too, they're both kind-hearted and ¡CUUUUUTEEEE! :D
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by red.orchid »

Ran's actions/thoughts are sometimes contradicted. At one time, she says that she will always believe in Shinichi and wait for him. And in these cases, Ran suspects Shinichi for dumping(?) her and gets furious.
Uhhh, about that... I think I might understand why Ran was so furious, a little bit. I think Ran believes in Shinichi, in his abilities and his convictions. That part is for sure. However, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with her insecurities which she had to deal with at that time. They were not boyfriend and girlfriend then, Shinichi hadn't confessed to her, their romantic relationship wasn't "official" in any capacity, so Ran had a reason to be insecure about Shinichi's feelings about her, at least that's what I think. She had been worrying about him, crying for him, and then suddenly there were indications that he might have been taking it easy and enjoying himself with a pretty girl without telling her about it. Ran was probably jealous but insecure (possibly feeling mad at herself for being tricked) at the same time, because she didn't know how Shinichi felt about her. She might have been wondering if Shinichi had been playing with her emotions all along. And since she wasn't his girlfriend, she practically didn't have the right to be envious, so there's the conflict. I would be upset and pissed off too if I were stuck in that situation. Probably wouldn't have broken the door like that (in my mind only), but you know what I mean. ;)
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Conny »

Spoiler:
I already explained that Ran had this judgement on her own and that she's happy that Shinichi thinks the same way.
All that sentence from her shows is, that Ran is really fond of Shinichi and that she thinks about Shinichi a lot (especially since he's currently on the phone too).

Also, Haibara did something similar once too, but no once seems to care about that?
In the Manga File 400 (Torn Freindship) Haibara says: "You can never buy people's hearts with money" and after the DBs say it was cool from her to say that Haibara answers: "It was a ready made opinion" and there are also flashbacks where she remembers what Conan said.
But here Haibara doesn't even say who she got that from. Haibara was influenced by Conan and it's not clear if she thought the same before or started to think like that after Conan said so.

So if it's fine for Haibara to adapt someones opinion then it should be fine for Ran too. And I think there is nothing wrong in having a role model or agreeing with someones way of thinking and adapting it.
Nice point. While it's true that Ran see Shinichi as a role model and follow his believes, it's also true that they share the same ethic/moral/believes. Its not her imitating him.

Also, in the "Torn Friendship" chapter, we can also see that Shinchi has been influenced by Ran in the way he treats her own friendhip with Sonoko, and i guess we can assume this is the kind of thing he appreciates about Ran.

I have the impression that most of people sees Ran as a clingy and weak girl, who only deppends on Shinichi for everything, and thats not true. This is most fanfiction than reality. The fact that she is oblivious about Conan's identity and the BO existence, allow this, she could be way more active if she was directly involved with the main plot; shame she is not.

I also think that most of people assume that: happy, smiling and nice = boring, mary sue, weak, etc. And the fact that she is the one loved by the protagonist doesn't help. That is why i want Gosho to put her in action; she has proved that she can be very useful and cool, like when she uses her Karate, or when she does everything to not let anybody die (remember when she protected Haibara from Vermoth, or even whe she saved Vermouth, or...a lot of other times?) i think the problem is the passive role Gosho has put her on. Im looking for a development on the main plot and the end of the series to see if she finally can get some action.


sorry for my english
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Wakarimashita »

That was 12-13 years ago though. I think Ran was a pretty cool character until 345 actually. She did have her 'Shinichi' moments but those weren't the bulk of her characterization as is the case today.
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by megamind1988 »

she's cute when she cries. ;D ;D
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by kkslider5552000 »

megamind1988 wrote:she's cute when she cries. ;D ;D
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by Silverbullet96 »

Conny wrote:
Spoiler:
I have the impression that most of people sees Ran as a clingy and weak girl, who only deppends on Shinichi for everything, and thats not true. This is most fanfiction than reality. The fact that she is oblivious about Conan's identity and the BO existence, allow this, she could be way more active if she was directly involved with the main plot; shame she is not.

sorry for my english
Idk if she could handle something that dangerous, mentally or physically. We have seen her so many times using her Karate to take out small thugs but when the going gets tough she gets defeated. She does not know about Conan's identity and etc. because she will be in serious danger if she does get involved.
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Re: Why do people dislike Ran?

Post by kkuuddoo »

Silverbullet96 wrote:
Conny wrote:
Spoiler:
I have the impression that most of people sees Ran as a clingy and weak girl, who only deppends on Shinichi for everything, and thats not true. This is most fanfiction than reality. The fact that she is oblivious about Conan's identity and the BO existence, allow this, she could be way more active if she was directly involved with the main plot; shame she is not.

sorry for my english
Idk if she could handle something that dangerous, mentally or physically. We have seen her so many times using her Karate to take out small thugs but when the going gets tough she gets defeated. She does not know about Conan's identity and etc. because she will be in serious danger if she does get involved.
I agree with you,
Ran is strong and is willing to help a friend, more so be there for the person she loves, shinichi. She is quite protective of Conan to some extent, and she will save him when needed, Conan has a lot of faith in her, and how strong she is in Karate and self defense. I believe that Conan aka Shinichi, knows her very well and he is not going to risk her life knowing that she will try to get involved is she knew about something going on, like the BO.

In fact, she decided to Jump in Jodie's car trunk and actually jumped out and through few bullets from Calvados, ( without Conan even knowing about ran even being there and doing what she did), she was determined to do what she did even without knowing what the whole situation was all about. She still saved Haibara Ai's life in a way.

I think people are only looking at the weak side of ran, for being missing shinichi so much and crying all the time, but I believe that ran is way more interesting, and is quite strong and brave. Many characters have flaws, as we all human have them as well.
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