Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 825-827 "Tennis Mee

[Kor]

As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

That's a crappy logic, and it reflects on the way you produce most of your theories. The series started at 1994. Even though technology in the DC universe has obviously advanced as the series progressed, in universe, we're still in the time frame of the same year Shinichi turned into a child (as far as I know we do not know what year it is in the DC universe, though). But you can't conclude that since YouTube exists, then it takes place in 2005, because Gosho couldn't have known at the start of the series that in 2005 YouTube will exist. The technological advancements are inserted into DC to reflect on the real life (I guess in order to make DC look "current" and not "old")

[ShinRan4ver]

but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?

Okiya said that not because he recognised Amuro, he said so because he sees only Vermouth and Bourbon is on the train instead of say the whole BO operation team(those two +Gin/Vodka/Chainti/Korn) which was the worst case scenario for Team Conan's Plan, saying "it looks like God is helping us" means  "I only see two of them and we can handle them."

[s.pel]

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?

It depends on what he meant by "it looks like God is helping us". Did he recognized him as a B.O. member or not? If he did then maybe he said that because he expects him to be there and is part of the plan,

yeah yeah I know, but I was assuming that Akai couldn't recognize him because he hadn't met him in the Organization or because that is not amuro's real appearence (and that's why he wouldn't have said anything to conan), and the fact that he seemed to recognize bourbon on the train went against my assumption...I just can't understand why he didn't tell anything to conan about amuro

or if not then maybe he thinks that he's an ally and would be able to help them against the B.O. (since he saved Conan once)

uhm...I think that's unlikely xD

[ShinRan4ver]

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?

It depends on what he meant by "it looks like God is helping us". Did he recognized him as a B.O. member or not? If he did then maybe he said that because he expects him to be there and is part of the plan,

yeah yeah I know, but I was assuming that Akai couldn't recognize him because he hadn't met him in the Organization or because that is not amuro's real appearence (and that's why he wouldn't have said anything to conan), and the fact that he seemed to recognize bourbon on the train went against my assumption...I just can't understand why he didn't tell anything to conan about amuro

or if not then maybe he thinks that he's an ally and would be able to help them against the B.O. (since he saved Conan once)

uhm...I think that's unlikely xD

We didn't see Okiya tell Conan about Amuro doesn't mean he didn't do it in secret, maybe he told Yukkio to tell Conan that via mail(the mail Conan mentioned to Haibara in 825), before that mail was sent Yukkio recognized Vermouth and Okiya recognized Bourbon, and as I said before "it looks like God is helping us" could mean "It is good for us that there are only two BO agents instead of 6 on this train".

Since Okiya interrupted Amuro's intrusion into Mouri's computer via hacking, he knew before hand that Bourbon is going to be on the train, plus Conan could predict Vermouth would get involved too since she needs to hide her secret so Bourbon+Vermouth being on the train was in Team Conan's original plan,saying "it looks like God is helping us" means that everything was going according to the plan. If the Gin Team was on the train as well then Team Conan's plan probably have to change and their job will get a lot harder, therefore it is good for them(Team Conan) that only Vermouth and Bourbon are on the train.

[mihai]

but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?

Okiya said that not because he recognised Amuro, he said so because he sees only Vermouth and Bourbon is on the train instead of say the whole BO operation team(those two +Gin/Vodka/Chainti/Korn) which was the worst case scenario for Team Conan's Plan, saying "it looks like God is helping us" means  "I only see two of them and we can handle them."

well, at that time Bourbon wasn't using disguise and Okiya spotted him easily, while the one using the disguise openly had to be Vermouth with her acting skills. So since he recognized both of them, then the job had to be a stealthy one, leaving aside Chianti and Korn with their snipers and Gin with Vodka were probably told to wait at the arrival since there were 2 very good agents on the train

thinking about it, back at Raiha Pass Gin looked kinda coward for not going to kill Akai himself since he hated him so much. I understand Kir had to prove her words, but that was still Akai himself and if I was Gin, I would at least go finish him after the first shot

[ShinRan4ver]

but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?

Okiya said that not because he recognised Amuro, he said so because he sees only Vermouth and Bourbon is on the train instead of say the whole BO operation team(those two +Gin/Vodka/Chainti/Korn) which was the worst case scenario for Team Conan's Plan, saying "it looks like God is helping us" means  "I only see two of them and we can handle them."

well, at that time Bourbon wasn't using disguise and Okiya spotted him easily, while the one using the disguise openly had to be Vermouth with her acting skills. So since he recognized both of them, then the job had to be a stealthy one, leaving aside Chianti and Korn with their snipers and Gin with Vodka were probably told to wait at the arrival since there were 2 very good agents on the train

thinking about it, back at Raiha Pass Gin looked kinda coward for not going to kill Akai himself since he hated him so much. I understand Kir had to prove her words, but that was still Akai himself and if I was Gin, I would at least go finish him after the first shot

Well, Gin is the type that don't take unnecessary risks, why be there and get surprised if Akai planned to surround him with the entire FBI cell there and capture him? To him that risk is unnecessary when he can just watch from far.

[sstimson]

Besides Gin ENJOYS blowing things up! Which ask the question. Why not set a bomb that would make a crater a mile wide. A lot easier to destroy the evidence.

[Wakarimashita]

As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

That's a crappy logic, and it reflects on the way you produce most of your theories. The series started at 1994. Even though technology in the DC universe has obviously advanced as the series progressed, in universe, we're still in the time frame of the same year Shinichi turned into a child (as far as I know we do not know what year it is in the DC universe, though). But you can't conclude that since YouTube exists, then it takes place in 2005, because Gosho couldn't have known at the start of the series that in 2005 YouTube will exist. The technological advancements are inserted into DC to reflect on the real life (I guess in order to make DC look "current" and not "old")

Cases usually take place at the time they are published. For example, in the Heiji-Kazuha case in volume 32, one of the suspects mentions the reconstruction of the Osaka Castle '69 years ago in 1931' which makes sense since the files first came out in Shonen Sunday around the end of 2000. Basically, both the technology and the years progress despite the characters not ageing.

[Kor]

As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

That's a crappy logic, and it reflects on the way you produce most of your theories. The series started at 1994. Even though technology in the DC universe has obviously advanced as the series progressed, in universe, we're still in the time frame of the same year Shinichi turned into a child (as far as I know we do not know what year it is in the DC universe, though). But you can't conclude that since YouTube exists, then it takes place in 2005, because Gosho couldn't have known at the start of the series that in 2005 YouTube will exist. The technological advancements are inserted into DC to reflect on the real life (I guess in order to make DC look "current" and not "old")

Cases usually take place at the time they are published. For example, in the Heiji-Kazuha case in volume 32, one of the suspects mentions the reconstruction of the Osaka Castle '69 years ago in 1931' which makes sense since the files first came out in Shonen Sunday around the end of 2000. Basically, both the technology and the years progress despite the characters not ageing.

Point taken.

[El Huesudo II]

Cases usually take place at the time they are published. For example, in the Heiji-Kazuha case in volume 32, one of the suspects mentions the reconstruction of the Osaka Castle '69 years ago in 1931' which makes sense since the files first came out in Shonen Sunday around the end of 2000. Basically, both the technology and the years progress despite the characters not ageing.

...

Aoyama-sensei should place a huge parody sign that says "In order to protect the identity of the persons involved, names and dates in this work have been altered." in the manga. That would pretty much solve every single timeline problem on the show.



Aaaaand, here we go again:

Sera Should be a BO death list person. Vermouth clearly not only knew her, but also her relationship. There is no reason to think the BO does not know as well. There is no way for the BO to know what she was told to her by her brother. Yet she is still walking around. This is one example of where they did not do their job. They are leaving a potential witness to BO activities alive.

Just because Bourbon and Vermouth know Sera is Akai's sister doesn't mean they'd have her on their watchlist. Actually, the scene where Vermouth talks to her while disguised as Akai answers the question of "what does the BO think about the existence of Akai's sister": She gauged her knowledge of Akai, got her answer (Sera thinks he's dead), and that's it. Sera's reaction pretty much told them she's not a threat (yet) - she knows nothing.

Yukiko and likely Vermouth have US green cards if not citizenship. That would bring in ETJ in to play ( An attack on US outside of the US ) a bombing being a terrorist act and one of the reason to bring ETJ in to play. As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

Again: WHO THE HELL CARES IF IT CAN BE DONE.

Right now, the FBI requires to keep their operation black for strategy purposes. Pursuing Bourbon would mean the FBI knows about him: they're not supposed to know. It'd also mean they were informed about his operation in the train: they're not supposed to know about that either.

Revealing that they know about Bourbon's existence and that they also know about his stunt in the train is also revealing that they have a secret operative watching their moves. They can't suspect Conan (yet), but as Bourbon is still convinced Akai is alive, everything would point to him. This would mean Kir's position in the BO would be compromised, and all their effort would go to waste right then.

James Black could send a backup FBI team to investigate the matter further, but he wouldn't be able to give them any intel he already has, because, again, the FBI is not supposed to know about Bourbon or about what happened in the train. Hell, even this could be a risky move, because that man is said to be overly cautious - the instant anyone from the FBI dares to dig further in the train, all of BO's assassins would be knocking on Kir's door. (And maybe Kogoro's, too; we know they know there's a connection between Kogoro, Kir, and the FBI.)

As for Sherry mask showing up, it almost a certainty. Call it a Chekhov Gun if you wish. Real life things like parachutes showing up in millions of square miles. This is even more likely if the mask landed any where near the place the video was taken. It would make a clear sign that the BO got lead into a trap. Things like that do show up and they cause all kinds of problems when they do.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the point of Kid's Sherry mask showing up at another time. However, again, remember that there were 2 Sherry masks on the train, Yukiko's (disposed of by Vermouth) and Kid's. The chances of Bourbon finding one are already low, but of finding both? I doubt it. And without both, Bourbon could only think the one he found was the one Vermouth disposed of. He has none of the information baggage Vermouth has, so he couldn't possibly insert Kid into his deductions.

Bourbon was the last one in the car before the explosion. I do believe they check the cargo before leaving. Those explosives had to be planted while the train was in motion. As it is very unlikely for an outsider to be able to plant them, that means it had to be done by a train passenger. And there is a list of them. Add the conductors who are in each car and watching that car and it gets narrowed down to either passengers in car 7 or car 8. Bourbon at best might claim he noticed the explosives and used some to prevent the train from being derailed. That still will leave the question of what was he doing there and why did he not tell a conductor as soon as possible.

A train staff uniform was missing, remember? Vermouth only needed to don it to be able to plant the explosives (which she could only do BEFORE the train was set in motion, to ensure there were no witnesses), and don it again at a later date to check on the cargo and say that everything's alright.

Also dammit sstimson, no one is suspecting Bourbon of anything, how many times have we said it?!

Back to ETJ, there are treaties between countries about exactly that. The Japanese Government can not disagree that there was attack on a US resident and so they would allow a US investigation into the train bombing. The BO by their actions might allow the FBI to now legally operate in Japan.

I'll say it again, for good measure: the FBI is not supposed to know anything about Bourbon and/or about what happened in the train. Launching an investigation about it of any kind under the flag of the FBI would be telling them "hey, we're watching your every move and we have a mole inside your little organization". Adieu, Kir; adieu, Kogoro; adieu, Conan.

As for knowing about the BO. They do know as Conan and Jodie told them about them and Akai was sent undercover into them. They know the BO does like to use Terrorist methods to commit crimes.

When has anyone revealed the BO's existence to any Japanese law enforcer? WHEN, EXACTLY?

The answer is NEVER.

No one (that we know of) in Japan's police knows about the BO.

If Akai is alive and that possibility is still not a certainty

We were already shown that Akai is very much alive and kicking (ass). What the hell are you talking about.

[sstimson]

@ El Huesudo II

1)not enough time to say that. Vermouth put her to sleep before she could really say anything.

2)The point was it is now possible because of the train bombing and a possible attack against US residents that because of ETJ the FBI rule about acting secret might change. It does not matter if they know who blow up the car. Because of ETJ they are allowed to investigate that crime. It is the BO own actions that might bring the FBI in to the picture. They might use as a cover that they are investigating a train bombing. That all they need to do. A train bombing is a terrorist act and reason enough to start asking questions. As far as Japan is concerned, the FBI is investigating a terrorist act. nothing else is needed.

Also if the BO think akai is alive, then they(FBI) would know about bourbon. If the bait was bugged, then again they(FBI) would know. Again the BO own actions open the possibility to Bourbon existence. Nothing else is needed. After Bourbon told who ever was with in ear shot about his existence. It is possible at a time they might not have known about it, but there is no reason to believe that now.

Look at this from the BO point of view. The FBI because of the haunted ship learned about SHERRY. The FBI investigated that and learned enough about her to create a look alike. They then allow this look like to get posted to the web. Because it could be Sherry even though it could be a trap, the BO must act and they know the FBI know this as well. The FBI might be setting up a decoy and have listening devices need their Sherry. Now enters Bourbon instead of checking for bugs, he announces to all in earshot who he is. Do not really think that none of the BO saw this as a possible trap. If so then explain why two very important agents (Gin and Vodka) are not on the train?

Again do you maybe see why KIr, Korogou and Conan might no longer matter. Again Bourbon said to a bug " Hi. I am bourbon"

3)While two mask would make this event being a trap for certain, one is enough. It is clear that the wearer of the Sherry mask would be bugged. A sherry mask also brings in the question of is Sherry even on the train.

4) while that might be true, you are forgetting what one of the conductors said. He went looking for a light bulb. You do not believe that in that search he would not have found funny covered items that he would soon know do not belong there. I say again the explosive planting could only happen while the train was moving. And Yes one of the conductors uniform was missing. Did you forget the murder? His trick needed a dead bulb, so he got the uniform and made sure there were no bulbs to fix the one he needed to be broken. He had it, not vermouth.

[ShinRan4ver]

826 is out. The trick defintely involves the AC and the water in the vase. It will be interesting to see the conclusion.

[rrizqiw]

predict blond Hair girl is the murderer.

smash head with frozen bottle

make him sit using racket.

put ice in vase

lock the key.

timer the AC

wait till the vase hit victim head

thought this trick is kinda stupid since the murderer forget that police can investigated time of death which make locked room mystery is just illusion 

[El Huesudo II]

Okay, I'll be hiding my reply to sstimson within this spoiler tag:

Spoiler:

1)not enough time to say that. Vermouth put her to sleep before she could really say anything.

http://www.dctp.ws/V78-Reader/V78-5Read/A2.html
Not only perfectly enough time to say that, she SAID IT. Check it out.

2)The point was it is now possible because of the train bombing and a possible attack against US residents that because of ETJ the FBI rule about acting secret might change. It does not matter if they know who blow up the car. Because of ETJ they are allowed to investigate that crime. It is the BO own actions that might bring the FBI in to the picture. They might use as a cover that they are investigating a train bombing. That all they need to do. A train bombing is a terrorist act and reason enough to start asking questions. As far as Japan is concerned, the FBI is investigating a terrorist act. nothing else is needed.

Again.

The FBI jumping into an investigation about the BO that they shouldn't have known about in the beginning would be suspicious to the eyes of the BO. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm saying it's not a good move.

Also if the BO think akai is alive, then they(FBI) would know about bourbon. If the bait was bugged, then again they(FBI) would know. Again the BO own actions open the possibility to Bourbon existence. Nothing else is needed. After Bourbon told who ever was with in ear shot about his existence. It is possible at a time they might not have known about it, but there is no reason to believe that now.

The FBI isn't supposed to know about what transpired on the train because they're not supposed to have any informants inside the train. Bourbon suspects Akai to have been in the train, but that's all he has - a suspicion. He's back where he started and he's feeling the need to review his case. He can't go around telling that man that Akai was on the train and that the FBI's aware that he's active - he has no evidence. Just a gut feeling.

Remember, also, that BO's position regarding Akai is that he's dead until proven otherwise - Gin was witness to his "death" and gave Kir no chance to prepare anything.

Not to mention that the BO doesn't know they were tricked, they really think Sherry is dead. Bourbon might be thinking that even with "Akai" in the train, Sherry couldn't have possibly survived the explosion, and Vermouth keeps any and all info she gets a secret, so she won't be telling anyone anything. So, the BO can't possibly think there was a "bait" and that it was "bugged", they think the Sherry on the train was indeed Sherry and that she died.

Look at this from the BO point of view. The FBI because of the haunted ship learned about SHERRY. The FBI investigated that and learned enough about her to create a look alike. They then allow this look like to get posted to the web. Because it could be Sherry even though it could be a trap, the BO must act and they know the FBI know this as well. The FBI might be setting up a decoy and have listening devices need their Sherry. Now enters Bourbon instead of checking for bugs, he announces to all in earshot who he is. Do not really think that none of the BO saw this as a possible trap. If so then explain why two very important agents (Gin and Vodka) are not on the train?

The BO doesn't think the FBI and Sherry have anything to do with each other. The only ones who know there's a connection are Gin and Vermouth, and, once again, Vermouth is keeping everything she knows under wraps. As for Gin, all he knows is that 2 identical wiretaps were used with both Sherry and Kir, and that they could be traced back to Kogoro, but then Akai saved the situation and made Gin suspect that the FBI was behind the tapping - but we don't know if he made the connection between the FBI and Sherry. What's implied is that Gin still feels Kogoro is the suspicious party.

Again do you maybe see why KIr, Korogou and Conan might no longer matter. Again Bourbon said to a bug " Hi. I am bourbon"

Kir, Kogoro, and by proxy Conan, still matter. Gin still suspects Kogoro, but again - just a suspicion, nothing concrete.

And what do you mean, Kir doesn't matter? The whole point of the Bourbon arc is that if the BO finds out Akai is alive, then Kir's a goner - and what would come next would be the one they suspect was collaborating with/being used by the FBI - Mouri Kogoro.

3)While two mask would make this event being a trap for certain, one is enough. It is clear that the wearer of the Sherry mask would be bugged. A sherry mask also brings in the question of is Sherry even on the train.

True enough, however, the mask would need to resurface for that to be an issue - and that's very unlikely.

4) while that might be true, you are forgetting what one of the conductors said. He went looking for a light bulb. You do not believe that in that search he would not have found funny covered items that he would soon know do not belong there. I say again the explosive planting could only happen while the train was moving. And Yes one of the conductors uniform was missing. Did you forget the murder? His trick needed a dead bulb, so he got the uniform and made sure there were no bulbs to fix the one he needed to be broken. He had it, not vermouth.

I had completely forgotten about the lightbulb thing. However, the train staff most likely knew where to look for lightbulbs - searching through the rest of the cargo was pretty useless.

And my point still stands - it would've been a breeze to Vermouth to pose as part of the staff and both plant the bombs while the train was on the station and to later tell everyone the cargo was OK right before its departure.

And now for 826: I find it funny that the racket has 4 bump marks on the strings, lined up like the edges of a square. I wonder what caused them to get bent in that shape. And, well, the trick employs ice of course.

Everyone's suspicious... Kotone's the one who handles ice the most, not to mention that she's the one who can prepare a trick better since it's her house. One could use ice to move a body, what with the reduced friction and everything. You could also set up ice so that once melted, the vase would fall.

Machi's the one who worked harder on establishing an alibi, and also mentioned the thing with the AC - that it was on. Almost as if she was trying to convince everyone that the AC was indeed on when it clearly wasn't... However, that testimony would only work if she knew someone else would say the same thing; I doubt she could predict Ran and Sonoko falling for the AC trick too.

Noboru suggested the thing about checking things out from the window, something that Amuro suggested was a big part of the trick; however, he was the one who sent Conan to the room; and that would be pretty much sabotaging himself...

...unless he counted on Conan to freak out like any other kid would at the sight of a body and for the crime scene to get messed with? Taking the water inside the vase in mind, the setup might work so that peeking through the window would have had the effect Amuro stated (the time it takes to open the locked room would allow for an explanation on the dried blood), but opening the door forcefully (which is a staple in DC) would spill the water inside the vase, re-humidifying the blood. ...But this method is kinda shaky and depends too much on chance... I dunno.

[sstimson]

predict blond Hair girl is the murderer.

smash head with frozen bottle

make him sit using racket.

put ice in vase

lock the key.

timer the AC

wait till the vase hit victim head

thought this trick is kinda stupid since the murderer forget that police can investigated time of death which make locked room mystery is just illusion 

True but your trick also changes the time of death. If the room is too hot or too cold the time of death changes. Heat speeds up the time and cold slows it down. The AC might effect the time of death and that could change everything.