Why do people dislike Ran?

[Antiyonder]

I really don't see this as something that one can have it both ways. You either care about someone so much that their own wants and needs trump your own, or you're more concerned about what you want and don't really care as much about the other person.

And you know the scene would be okay if it was setting up for Conan/Shinichi to be taken down a peg (being confronted with his own flaws), but instead, it's romanticized as a cool moment for him.

[Shiromi]

I don't see it as egoistical. It would be if his love for Ran wasn't mutual and he knew that, but in this case I am sure he just doesn't want to lose the person he loves and who loves him.

Except as you said, he knows that Ran loves him, so shouldn't he trust that Ran would turn Eisuke down herself, and you know respect her as an independant version.

Sorry, but any guy that claims to love another like Shinichi does, would rather see their crush happy even if it's with another person. Cause otherwise it's selfishness, not love.

Shinichi has proven that he selfishly loves Ran many times... every time he called her to tell her he was still alive (the very mention of which endangers both their lives), every time he asks her to wait for him, every time he sabotages her dates with other guys as Conan, and especially the way he chased off Eisuke. Maybe he thinks that because the situation is painful for him too that that makes it unselfish - but he's deluding himself. Currently, his future is incredibly uncertain - he could end up caught, tortured, experimented on, and dead pretty easily. Keeping up any kind of hope for a relationship with Ran without getting them both killed is reckless and selfish.

Earlier on in the series it was more played for laughs. I remember that when we met Ran's mother, Shinichi tagged along as Conan because he thought she was going on a date and was really jealous. We got to laugh at him and his ridiculous protectiveness. But, since the Vermouth arc, I think... there was a shift in tone. There was a lot less slapstick, and Shinichi trying to be Ran's White Knight was written as noble, rather than as a character flaw we could laugh at. It's one of the reasons that I think amidst the Vermouth arc is when some serious rewriting of the future plot happened, with a lot of room for expansion added in.

[Mario2000]

I really don't see this as something that one can have it both ways. You either care about someone so much that their own wants and needs trump your own, or you're more concerned about what you want and don't really care as much about the other person.

And you know the scene would be okay if it was setting up for Conan/Shinichi to be taken down a peg (being confronted with his own flaws), but instead, it's romanticized as a cool moment for him.

Maybe he is somehow selfish, but not being perfect is normal for any person, and imo it would be somehow creepy and weird if it didn't matter the least to Conan whether she got together with him or somebody else. That would be a different and (in my opinion) strange kind of love. Also, he may logically be 99,9% sure that Ran would have turned Eisuke down, but still be subconsciously afraid of the remaining minimal possibility on an emotional level. Speaking from a detached point of view, of course he may be defined "selfish", but I don't think there are so many people that would be able to easily maintain "neutrality" while being in love.

[Antiyonder]

^^^Then would love really be an accurate description of his feelings (rather than say crush or just being in lust)?

If I may ask, what would Shinichi have to do in your opinion to demonstrate that he doesn't love her?

[jalex26]

I really don't see this as something that one can have it both ways. You either care about someone so much that their own wants and needs trump your own, or you're more concerned about what you want and don't really care as much about the other person.

And you know the scene would be okay if it was setting up for Conan/Shinichi to be taken down a peg (being confronted with his own flaws), but instead, it's romanticized as a cool moment for him.

Maybe he is somehow selfish, but not being perfect is normal for any person, and imo it would be somehow creepy and weird if it didn't matter the least to Conan whether she got together with him or somebody else. That would be a different and (in my opinion) strange kind of love. Also, he may logically be 99,9% sure that Ran would have turned Eisuke down, but still be subconsciously afraid of the remaining minimal possibility on an emotional level. Speaking from a detached point of view, of course he may be defined "selfish", but I don't think there are so many people that would be able to easily maintain "neutrality" while being in love.

I think it's Eisuke's fault because he found it necessary to ask for Shinichi's permission before confessing to Ran. He didn't really have to do it anyway because Shinichi and Ran is not in a relationship yet (or are they?) The only thing he had to worry about is if Ran likes him back or how Ran will react. I know Shinichi could have handled it better by just letting him confess but he was just being honest with his feelings. So if he ended up looking selfish it's understandable.

[Mario2000]

^^^Then would love really be an accurate description of his feelings (rather than say crush or just being in lust)?

If I may ask, what would Shinichi have to do in your opinion to demonstrate that he doesn't love her?

I think a demonstration of him not loving her any more would be if he stopped thinking about her and wanted to marry somebody else after the Black Organization matter is over. In the Eisuke situation, I agree with Jalex26 about Conan looking selfish no matter what he said, but in my opinion it's his reason that matters. If he just considered Ran his property and thought that Eisuke should keep his hands/eyes down from HIS girl because it is a sign of "disrespect" or whatever... that would be another thing. In my opinion, falling in love is a feeling that is always "selfish" from a certain point of view and implies that you want the loved person be with YOU, not somebody else. Love isn't exactly something you can logically analyze in every detail and be completely neutral, especially if you are the one in love.

[Antiyonder]

I agree with Jalex26 about Conan looking selfish no matter what he said, but in my opinion it's his reason that matters. If he just considered Ran his property and thought that Eisuke should keep his hands/eyes down from HIS girl because it is a sign of "disrespect" or whatever... that would be another thing.

That's pretty much what he said, but only with a simple no. And I'm curious what you mean by the bold statement.

Surely saying something like "I'd rather that nothing happened between the two of you, but it's up to Ran to decide if she wants to accept your feelings, not mine". Don't see how that would be selfish

In my opinion, falling in love is a feeling that is always "selfish" from a certain point of view and implies that you want the loved person be with YOU, not somebody else.

Ehh. Parting of loving someone entails that you care about them. And part of caring means entails being selfless.

I mean maybe there is room for a little selfishness, but if it outweighs being considerate at all about what your partner wants, I think it's grounds for questioning whether what you have is love or lust.

[Mario2000]

That's pretty much what he said, but only with a simple no. And I'm curious what you mean by the bold statement.

Surely saying something like "I'd rather that nothing happened between the two of you, but it's up to Ran to decide if she wants to accept your feelings, not mine". Don't see how that would be selfish

What I meant is that he would seem selfish if he tried to defend in any way his desire to be the one who gets together with Ran. Of course surrendering his position wouldn't be selfish, but I sincerely wouldn't want him to. Maybe he could have expressed himself better, I don't know, I am not the author after all, however I agree he could have let Eisuke say what he wanted if the author's intention isn't to let Ran leave Shinichi anyway.

Ehh. Parting of loving someone entails that you care about them. And part of caring means entails being selfless.

I mean maybe there is room for a little selfishness, but if it outweighs being considerate at all about what your partner wants, I think it's grounds for questioning whether what you have is love or lust.

I don't know, maybe so, but I (and many other fans) are a little selfish myself, and I just wouldn't want Conan to give up. I am always for the "first loves being happily forever together" utopian kind of stories, especially if they are about childhood friends. If Ran wasn't happy with Shinichi, it would be another discourse, but she is, as far as I get it.
Anyway, I understand and respect your point of view, it's just if the situation should be analyzed like that, it's a little complicated for me to discuss.
What I wanted originally say was just that I disagree when somebody says that one shouldn't "cling to the past and childhood memories". It's just there are many works of fiction in which, when a character has to make a choice, in almost all the cases I read they never choose the past, no matter how tender and sweet the memories may be, and that's sad in my opinion.

[Antiyonder]

Well, one has to look at all of those times he's broken her heart like at the end of The Desperate Revival, the end of Shiragami arc and the middle of the London arc due to his need to keep her in the dark.

Heck, that's another problem overall with his response towards Eisuke. He'll keep Ran in the dark supposedly because she can't be trusted or for her own protection, yet he spills towards Eisuke just to keep him out of the picture. At least in cases like Heiji coming in, he was backed into a corner so to speak.

I mean I like fictional relationships whether it's first love or someone else and I can even support a shallow coupling if there isn't anything unpleasant about them or they grow beyond their flaws.

Going back to ShinichiXRan, having him display some selfishness like this is fine, if the writer was to have him confronted on his flaw and better himself in the process. But instead things like telling Eisuke off seems to be more romanticized by the author than treated as a legit problem.


Now to better understand your point a view, I'd like to know if you believe there's a difference between loving someone and merely crushing/lusting on them.

[Shiromi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect

Also, polyamorous couples prove that it's not a wish to be the only person who is with your beloved one, but to be loved in return. Wanting to be loved is selfish, but as long as the love is mutual and reciprocated, that selfishness isn't harmful.

/Shiromi's thoughts on relationships, after having met a very happy polyamorous family, (two men, one woman) which is happily together for at least a decade by now. They have an adorable son too!

[Mario2000]

Now to better understand your point a view, I'd like to know if you believe there's a difference between loving someone and merely crushing/lusting on them.

Yes, there is a difference, but pure lust in this case I think may be excluded because Shinichi and Ran's love goes back to childhood, when lust is physically impossible. As for mere crushes, I guess it's just a weaker form of love.

[Kudo Shinchi]

I'v said this before, and I'll say it again: the issues surrounding Shinichi and Ran's relationship, and Ran's character, have been blown way out of proportion.

Ran isn't a very active character right now, but the same can be said for a lot of other people. In fact, the only active characters right now are Conan, Okiya, Sera, and Bourbon. Actually, scratch Okiya, he hasn't appeared in the manga for over a year. This is just the way Gosho does things; he rightfully avoids focusing on too many people at once so he can tell his story properly. Character get shafted for certain periods of time, but Gosho never forgets about them. More so, Ran has been playing a very impotant yet subtle role as of late, and that is that she's slowly gathering clues about Conan and subconsciously suspecting him. It's not blatantly obvious, but it's a plotline that's been running throughout the whole Bourbon arc (so that's around seven years now), playing out in the background, and easily noticeable if you pay attention. Ran'll get her next moment to shine soon enough. Point is, it's normal for Gosho to turn the focus away from characters for long periods of time, sometimes years. Doesn't say anything about his writing of said characters.

@Antiyonder I don't agree with your suggestion that love and selfishness are mutually exclusive. It's normal for someone to be possessive about someone he/she loves. It's sounds nice and honorable to say that if you love a person very much you should be happy for them no matter who they're with, but in reality it's exceedingly difficult. Shinichi/Conan may be mature for his age, but he's still a teenage boy. I think it's important to note that Ran and Shinichi are childhood friends, and that she was one of the few people close to him since he was a child. Is it weird to be possessive about someone who's been a major force in your life? But more interestingly, he said something along what I've said above sometime during the Vermouth arc, to Haibara. He told her that he doesn't want Ran to cry anymore, even if he no longer has a place in his heart.

Conan contradicted himself on this point later on in the story multiple times. Before I get any further, I'll just say that doesn't undo what a huge character moment it was for Shinichi, the guy with the inflated ego, to say that, and say it so earnestly. He really meant what he said at that time, even if he hasn't done the best job holding true to it. But anyways, Shinichi obviously still feels jealousy to anyone who tries to get close to Ran, which is only natural, and it was played for laughs quite extensively during the Kir arc with Eisuke. In London he went ahead and confessed his feelings to her, even though he previously stated he wouldn't. Now, it'd be easy to dismiss this as bad writing or character regression...except that Haibara reminded him of his words after the London case! This is significant because it shows that Gosho, the writer, hasn't forgotten Shinichi's words from hundreds and hundreds of chapters ago and is aware of Conan's contradictory actions. Isn't that interesting? Doesn't that open the possibility that there will come a time when Conan will ultimately called out on his actions?

I'm not fond of how the Eisuke situation went down or how it was represented, but it doesn't bug me a whole lot because it was clearly not the intention of the scene. When Gosho was writing that, his focus was on giving Eisuke a great exit from the series, about Shinichi viewing Ran as his property, especially when he's explicitly said before that he'd rather Ran forget about him than cry. In the London case, and after, Gosho's portrayal of Shinichi's actions hasn't been entirely favorable, as with the aforementioned Haibara moment, and how Ran yelled at Shinichi during the case for his foolish actions. I honestly think it's best to hold judgement until the time when Ran discovers Conan's identity and we see how the situation is handled.

Now, and this is addressed to everyone: what in the world is wrong with Ran being a housewife? Whenever it's mentioned it's implied to be something bad, an insult to her character. Why is that? Ran can be whatever she wants in the future, whether it's a lawyer, karate teacher, housewife, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that Ran as character is honestly far superior to most female characters in shonen manga. That doesn't excuse the few problems that exist in regards to her, but it's something to keep in mind. A lot of the criticisms in this topic are far better reserved for...certain...characters in other mangas.

[kkslider5552000]

I'v said this before, and I'll say it again: the issues surrounding Shinichi and Ran's relationship, and Ran's character, have been blown way out of proportion.

I do agree that this thread has basically turned into looking at the worst of the situation with a semi-cynical outlook, but it is mostly the truth of how it is as far as I'm concerned. I noticed these issues around 3 years before I wrote this, so Gosho or one of the editors had no interest or did not realize these issues within that time so I think this is all fair game. For the record, after an even larger annoyance at that time the plot was intentionally ignored basically entirely for a year and a half, most of my other issues with recent Conan were addressed post-Sera intro in one way or another I feel, so to me that makes this the big problem I have. And it is such a simple thing to at least address that is not addressed anymore. It can be, it might someday, we don't know. But it has taken too long for any sane human being to tolerate or wait for a payoff in any way for this frustrating character writing so until then, the problem is exactly what I stated and how I stated it.

[usotsuki]

"To truly love someone you have to be willing to let them go..."

[jalex26]

"To truly love someone you have to be willing to let them go..."

It depends though (I'm assuming that you're talking about Shinichi and Ran) If you know that that someone loves you back theres no reason to let go and let other person take that someone, unless of course if doing that will put him/her out of danger. In Shinichi's case he is actually willing to let her go but he knows that there's still a reason to fight for it because once he return back to his old body and destroy the B.O. they can finally be together in peace. That's just my opinion so don't take it that seriously