Why do people dislike Ran?

[Wakarimashita]

I don't really mind the way Ran is portrayed although I do wish she would be more involved sometimes, especially recently.

Also, I'm not all that bothered about the so called sexism compared to most people. Gosho is a 50 year old man who was raised in a very patriarchal society, and one that still is quite patriarchal today compared to the standards we tend to hold in the west, and so I do expect to see aspects of that when I read Conan. The fact that DC reflects japanese society, although in a very simplified way, is one of the things that keeps me interested.

In that regard, I would go as far as to say DC is among the least 'offensive' (although it doesn't personally offend me since it's just works of fiction). The story has plenty of intelligent women, and you generally don't have female characters which are there only for their boobs or where that feature is the one that is highlighted the most.

[kkslider5552000]

so called sexism

upbringing doesn't make it not sexism. Sorry. :/

tbh, the sexism part (outside of that one case) was in the essay for how it worsens the character rather than hatred towards sexism in fiction in general. I think I made that clear.

I also did bring up how it could be MUCH worse. Bleach and Orihime fans are probably still furious.

[Wakarimashita]

so called sexism

upbringing doesn't make it not sexism. Sorry. :/

tbh, the sexism part (outside of that one case) was in the essay for how it worsens the character rather than hatred towards sexism in fiction in general. I think I made that clear.

That's true, although I do think contextualisation is still important.
Imo it only worsens the character when there is an overdose of sexism and thus when it makes the character come off weak all the time, and it is true that we've seen this trend happen with Ran quite a lot recently. When it comes to a japanese character living in what is supposed to be a representation of the japanese society, a certain dose of sexism is to be expected and I would go as far as to say it makes the character and interactions with others more believable (the fortune cookie case is obviously pushing it though, that just made her come off as retarded).

[kkslider5552000]

so called sexism

upbringing doesn't make it not sexism. Sorry. :/

tbh, the sexism part (outside of that one case) was in the essay for how it worsens the character rather than hatred towards sexism in fiction in general. I think I made that clear.

That's true, although I do think contextualisation is still important.
Imo it only worsens the character when there is an overdose of sexism and thus when it makes the character come off weak all the time, and it is true that we've seen this trend happen with Ran quite a lot recently. When it comes to a japanese character living in what is supposed to be a representation of the japanese society, a certain dose of sexism is to be expected and I would go as far as to say it makes the character and interactions with others more believable (the fortune cookie case is obviously pushing it though, that just made her come off as retarded).

Well true, and that did come to mind while writing it. That didn't change my opinion of any of it though (and honestly I am no expert on that) so I didn't mention it.

[kirite]

Of course Gosho is sexist. But I'll say he's sexist to every single character in his series. Shinichi cannot have weaknesses. Ayumi and Ai does the cooking while the rest of the DB play games. Guys do the fighting and protecting even if they're crippled or only 8 years old. Girls are sweet and friendly or shy and tsundere just pretending they're not sweet and friendly on the inside. Guys are bad at "girly thing" like cooking and expressing emotions. Girls are all beautiful etc etc...

Even Satou and Takagi of elements of this. They're still cute though!

So yeah even though the sexism makes me facepalm repeatedly, Gosho doesn't screw up enough for me to actively dislike them. There is always some funny moment. Wish there was less unfunny ones yes, but eh.

PS: I love Orihime...not sure why she was brought up here though (did I miss something)?

[bash7353]

[...]

To be fair, there are quite a few strong female characters as well. Kir, Vermoth, Jodie and Sato come to mind. However, all but Sato appear mostly in cases relevant to the overall plot, and therefore not nearly as often as Ran, Sonoko or even Kazuha. And also, I don't believe you can somehow offset portraying characters in a sexist way by just also having strong female characters as well - no matter how many there are or how strong they are.

I think there's a problem with the logic here that I see quite often. Mostly dealing with the phrase "strong female characters". I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding here with the term, so I'll quote (again) something I said in the discussion with slider I had:

"

I'm sometimes unsure about how female characters are written, first of all. I tend to wonder, is it actually sexist that this character is like this or is this character...just like this and that's ok/tolerable at times even if she's not some strong female character or whatever?

This line of thinking is really great, and is actually one of the first steps to understanding feminism. Asking these questions is what people need to do more often, and finding these answers help further understand just what feminism is aiming for. I'll answer your question here, though I'll admit I'm no "feminist professor" but I think I can give a good enough answer to clear up some of your uncertainty.

A lot of (mostly male but can be female too) writers - whether it's a book, a comic, a show, what have you - get confused at the term "strong female character". When women ask for a "strong female character", they don't necessarily mean "a character that is a physically/mentally strong female". What they actually mean is "a female that has a strong character". In other words, what they're asking for is complexity. A good quote to consider that may help clarify:

Screw writing “strong” women. Write interesting women. Write well-rounded women. Write complicated women. Write a woman who kicks ass, write a woman who cowers in a corner. Write a woman who’s desperate for a husband. Write a woman who doesn’t need a man. Write women who cry, women who rant, women who are shy, women who don’t take no shit, women who need validation and women who don’t care what anybody thinks. THEY ARE ALL OKAY, and all those things could exist in THE SAME WOMAN. Women shouldn’t be valued because we are strong, or kick-ass, but because we are people. So don’t focus on writing characters who are strong. Write characters who are people.

~taken from this post on tumblr if you'd like to read the rest of it

The backbone of feminism is essentially "allow women be what they want". In other words, there is not a problem if there is a physically weak female character who lives up to most female stereotypes, strange as that sounds."

I've actually seen the argument too that by giving a female character physical strength for no reason, it's actually moving backwards and becoming sexist - because there can be the implication that "she's not a good character unless she can kick some ass" which is where the "strong female character" problem derives from. Writers focus too much on the "strong" and not enough on the "character". Gosho is no exception.

[...]

I realize that difference, and I didn't mean to imply that what makes these characters strong is that they are physically strong. I probably should have included Eri and Miyano Akemi in the list, who I think are both strong characters while not really kicking ass. Those four simply were the only ones I knew off the top of my head last night, I didn't intend for it to sound like the list was full.

Here's my reasoning for how I decide for myself whether or not something is sexism:
There was a time - really not that long ago - when virtually only men would have jobs, while women would stay at home dealing with housekeeping and raising children. Men were thought of as not only physically stronger, but also smarter than women in general and therefore better suited to work. Having formed a bond with the child during the nine months of pregnancy, women were thought to be better suited to raise children. Over time more and more people started believe that those things are neither fair nor based in fact. Women are just as capable to manage most jobs men can do (perhaps some of them even better) as there's no evidence that men are smarter than women in general. Also men can also be to raise decent children.

I'd like to say that the above-mentioned world view is outdated. But we don't yet live in a world where women have equal rights and respect as men in every regard, and let's not kid ourselves, it's still a long way to go. So that means that if you're telling a story - whether it's a television show, a novel, or a manga series - that a lot of people are gonna read or watch, then how your characters are portrayed matters. If you only have female characters that deal with housekeeping and raising children, then this can make it seem normal to the audience and women working might become less acceptable in society. If, however, you portray women as being successful in jobs that in the past have been male domains (FBI, CIA, high positions in police departments, law firms such as the one that Eri runs), then that's a good thing. That is why I believe Kir, Vermoth, Jodie, Sato, Eri and Akemi are strong characters whose depiction shows absolutely no signs of sexism whatsoever.

The portrayal of Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah, on the other hand, could be one where they provide useful information or come up with good ideas during the course of investigations. Unfortunately, the actual portrayal feels like they act as witnesses alone, by which I mean they do little more than state what they saw or heard. All the thinking is done by Conan and Heiji. I'm not suggesting that Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah should be depicted as being just as smart as Conan and Heiji, but Gosho could have them pick up on smaller hints. It just feels as if Kazuah and Sonoko are just around to give Heiji and Ran a sidekick without really impacting the course of the episode. Most cases involving them could easily be told without them there, so it seems that they don't really have a purpose.

[...]

But yes, if you have any good points about how Sonoko/Kazuha/anyone else are portrayed in a sexist way, I would really love to read it. I'm the type that would prefer not to gloss over any sexism, so if I've missed some I'd be grateful if you could point it out

[...]

Some people in a German forum I often read (although I don't contribute myself there) noted this about Kazuah's portrayal in File 831 (I guess in the anime that's 711 - Everybody Witnessed It (Part 1)). Note: It's a rough translation and somewhat taken out of context.

After saying she has an important role in the case, Kazuah goes to the scene of the crime and mentions - repeatedly - that the chair that the victim seems to have used is the same one that the Toyamas have at their home. Before that Ran and Kazuah catch one's eye when they are excited about the elevator having a window. While reading that, I was shaking my head and thinking, "Wow, girls, what an adventure!"

That sort of touches upon what I've mentioned earlier.

[...]

I don't really agree with this, though:

[...]
Shinichi himself can come across as a sexist character as well. A major example of that would be the last Eisuke scene where Conan’s identity is revealed to him. Ignoring that Eisuke had known this for a while, Conan reveals who he really is because Eisuke wanted to confess to Ran and Conan refused to let that happen. It implies that Shinichi won’t allow her to deal with that pretty harmless situation. But the thing is that I’m still ok with that scene. Shinichi is jealous at best, sexist at worst but while not intentional I’m sure, that fits pretty well with Shinichi/Conan. [...]

The implication never was that Shinichi is sexist here, but rather Eisuke.

As someone who had problems with the scene, I'm going to point out that yes there are also implications of Eisuke being sexist but there are also those that Shinichi is being sexist. The nature of implications is that they change from person to person, and they all have merit. So if anyone at all saw implications of something in a scene, then that implication exists.

And it's funny because you actually sort of prove that there are implications of Shinichi being sexist in that scene.

The idea that he can confess to Ran only after getting Shinichi's permission, and if he's turned down he isn't allowed to tell her at all is one that Eisuke has come up with, not Shinichi. Conan just replied to the question the way that he saw fit. Granted, it would have been more progressive and at the same time would have protected his identity, if he'd just said something along the lines of "Why do I (Conan) care about what's going on with your love-triangle? I don't have any stake in this." But I don't really see any sexism in the the way he actually decided to respond.

There is (at least through my eyes) heavy sexism on Shinichi's part in this scene. For one thing, you actually point out that Shinichi did not have to answer the way he did. As you said "he replies in the way he saw fit"...but that reply plays into the sexism of the sentence, and, as you said, Shinichi saw that as a fit way to answer. He did not see the sexism, he responded instinctively. His response and the fact that he did not choose to answer in a non-sexist way, heavily implies he is sexist.

Especially since his answer revealed his identity. One way to look at it is that Shinichi was so convinced that he had to "protect" Ran, so crudely possessive of her in that scene, that he saw it fit to reveal his identity to Eisuke just to "protect" her.

For a better read on what I thought of that scene and where I'm coming from, I would suggest reading this post I wrote a long time back. Most of my feelings in that post still apply.

[...]

Now, this thing deals with whether or not a character is sexist. That means that most of what a wrote above doesn't apply here, 'cause that's a totally different question. Just because there's a sexist character doesn't mean that the story is sexist. For instance, you could have a character be overly sexist in order to show how stupid it is. And vice versa: Just because sexist characters are nowhere to be found doesn't necessarily mean that the story isn't sexist.

Here's what Eisuke says to Conan: "Then can you ask him for me? If it's okay for me to confess my feelings to Ran-san?" English may not be my first language, but I think there is a difference between asking if it's okay to confess or if it's okay with Shinichi to confess. Eisuke asks the first thing, I know, and if the question like this were put towards a third party, then obviously the answer has to be "Of course, it is." However, the question is put towards Shinichi which makes me interpret is as asking if it's okay with Shinichi to confess. From Shinichi's perspective it just looks like Eisuke thinks it would be unfair to enter into competition with Shinichi. It is a stupid thing to think, yeah. But I don't see why should it be Shinichi's burden to tell Eisuke not to care if other guys are interested in the same girl as he is?


It's kind of funny: With Shinichi you see sexism and I don't, with Sonko and Kazuah I see sexism and you don't. Well, at least we agree on this one:

[...]

As far as Ran knowing Conan's identity is concerned, I've mentioned in another thread that I see hints it might happen in the next couple years. But while it would change a lot of the dynamics of cases where Ran is involved, I don't think that would change all that much of what you mentioned you don't like about the portrayal of Ran's character. If it does happen, I hope Gosho has Ran figure it out herself with Conan this time being unable to employ a clever trick to somehow convince her that her suspicions are once again wrong rather than letting Conan/Shinichi just tell her.

It would be quite bad for her to just be told. But the thing is that the dynamics would Ran would become more active if she were to find out herself. As I mentioned, she's become passive, which is part of the problem, because it's not really in her original character to be passive.

[...]

[k11chi]

Of course Gosho is sexist. But I'll say he's sexist to every single character in his series. Shinichi cannot have weaknesses. Ayumi and Ai does the cooking while the rest of the DB play games. Guys do the fighting and protecting even if they're crippled or only 8 years old. Girls are sweet and friendly or shy and tsundere just pretending they're not sweet and friendly on the inside. Guys are bad at "girly thing" like cooking and expressing emotions. Girls are all beautiful etc etc...

Even Satou and Takagi of elements of this. They're still cute though!

So yeah even though the sexism makes me facepalm repeatedly, Gosho doesn't screw up enough for me to actively dislike them. There is always some funny moment. Wish there was less unfunny ones yes, but eh.

PS: I love Orihime...not sure why she was brought up here though (did I miss something)?

Personally I never minded "weak" characters. Girls or guys.

Not a genius, can't pull a sword out of their back pocket, physically weak, scared, and usually doesn't know what the hell is going on. All they have is a gentle loyal heart, if even that. When they're threatened it's actually terrifying to read. For example Hime had no immediate powers, her friend just got possessed and there was a giant monster threatening to rape her then kill her for lulz. When she did get her powers it was actual character development (protected to protector) instead of "I was already awesome and protecting everyone but now I just got more awesome".

Spoiler:

it's not really a word you can throw around that cheaply though, you could literally call anything sexist and overuse the word

but dont worry, the current last arc of Bleach will definitely have Orihime be an actual character again, the arc has already exceeded expectations and answered the questions that needed answers that this person was asking, you should watch his chapter reviews most of them are very good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lK4CSg6pZ0

[kkslider5552000]

Honestly, I think it's obvious that Eisuke was just trying to see Conan's reaction.

[User 4869]

@sonoci

Ran crying is just an example. I mean to say people can have different view of certain attributes. I say cry because it the first thing that come to my mind. better example would be Ran is expert in karate, which people can like because it awesome, or dislike because it not ladylike,girly.

but when there's a huge chunk of text it's usually best to read the text before replying

Ofc. So I claim that I haven't read, but decided to.(Just try to give a feedback) I later edit to say that what I said did not apply. I could edit the first part out but leave it because it show my mistake.

About the topic. I would say that the topic name can result in people say something like I said. Admittedly, Its my fault that I dont read, but imo, people who read "why people dislike x" I would assume they want to say "X has this but Y does not, so you should not hate them, X is better than Y" hence I reply what I reply. (people can have different view of certain attributes and they should not arguing). IMO (again) This topic is about Ran portrayal that are limited because she is Shinichi girlfriend and is the (ideal) heroin. So I propose something like "How Gosho portraying Ran (lately)"

[Yottas]

I've started to dislike a character named Ran because she has turned into a tool of Gosho's writing with the function to interrupt Conan's investigation (to decelerate the pace the plot is moving). Pre-Vermouth-Arc she was someone who has moved the plot forward, now she just stops the plot and that is something that I don't like, that I dislike.
Certain things in DC are sexist but not more than society itself is... There are more important things to worry about than sexism in DC.

Yottas

[kirite]

it's not really a word you can throw around that cheaply though, you could literally call anything sexist and overuse the word

You right. I guess I want to stress that Gosho is both sexist to female and male characters. To me it's quite obvious all the time when I read this. I'm not saying Gosho is a sexist in a way that's insulting (like all girls are weak and belong in the kitchen). To me he seem to care a lot about making the girls just as strong as the guys. I will argue that his "standard default setting" is skewed though. Like the after mentioned moments where Ai and Ayumi are cooking while the boys are playing soccer. Thing is doesn't Genta's family own a Izakaya (or a bar)? It would make perfect sense for Genta to be cooking too. But he didn't do that. Instead he just put girls cooking (even thought they're 8) because girls cook. It's not by purpose or malicious intent, it's just the default setting is that "girls are x while boys are y", even when it doesn't make sense.

I like to look at Gosho's writing like this. Since I don't know how to translate it properly I'll say I divide his writing into "cut scenes" and "normal game play". Cut scenes are special character defining moments that Gosho purposely wrote in for epicness. Satou jumping off a bridge to capture a criminal, Makoto dodging a bullet, etc ... Normal game play is just pages where Gosho is solving a mystery or nothing big is happening.

For example:

Cut scene: Jodie use her wits to outsmart criminals.
Normal game play: Jodie didn't solve the mystery, Conan and Akai did.

I know that Conan and Akai are Detectives (main hero) and he did stuff like this for the sake of the plot. But it does cause all the "strong female" defining moments to be disconnected from every day case life. I think that's why arguments over whether a character, especially female character, is interesting or strong is very difficult. They have cool moments or titles or skills that we don't get to see used in cases.

Ran for example was shown to be exemplary at history.

Cut scene: Ran is very hard working at school, so much so that she collapse.
Normal game play: The detectives know everything she knows and answers everything before she does. Her job is to explain to Kogoro and the audience.

[S.Vineyard]

The main problem with Ran is, that that her character seems to be kind of neglected Post-Sera Introduction. There was a time when she was awesome, but currently she serves no real purpose, which angers me.

[kkslider5552000]

PS: I love Orihime...not sure why she was brought up here though (did I miss something)?

Finding out where her whole arc in the Hueco Mundo ended up going to was really awful and made me glad I dropped the series.

[Adel34]

Gosh... I'll read all of this later, but now I'm going to make a comment as to why I don't like Ran.

First of all, her fear of things that don't exist (vampires, monsters, etc.) is beyond ridiculous and downright annoying. She's not a little kid anymore, plus she trains martial arts, why the heck would she be scared of some imaginary monster?

Second of all, I find it annoying how she gets in the way of Kogoro flirting with women. I do acknowledge the fact that she wants him to go back to Eri, but he's a grown up and can do whatever he wants. If he wants to flirt with other women, it's his business, she may not like it, but she can't threaten him with karate and whatnot. It's just wrong.

Finally, she's just plain dumb. She believes in so many superstitions like palm reading, fortune telling, etc. (Actually, Kazuha is worse in this subject, but that's for another topic). Not to mention that she does absolutely nothing to figure out where Shinichi is and gives up after Conan shows her circumstantial evidence.

[k11chi]

PS: I love Orihime...not sure why she was brought up here though (did I miss something)?

Finding out where her whole arc in the Hueco Mundo ended up going to was really awful and made me glad I dropped the series.

Yamamoto went Bankai in the current and final arc of Bleach so it might be worth picking up just for that
Also the artwork has skyrocketed just look at the amount of color pages the manga is having recently
http://i17.mangapanda.com/bleach/505/bleach-3556523.jpg
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