What's The Truth Behind APTX4869?

[DC2021]

There is a lot of things I don't understand clearly !!
In the he first meeting b/w Conan & Haibara, she said that she didn't have any intention to make a poison in the first place.

What does that mean? Did Haibara mean that she made APTX bcz it was BO order and intention, and Haibara have known it would be used as a poison, but she had nothing to do against BO?? Or she meant that there is another purpose of APTX rather than killing people, but BO were using APTX on human beings as a poison despite being incomplete?And if it's that true, why Gin said in the first episode of DC that APTX was developed as a powerful poison to kill people when he tried to kill Kudo Shinichi by this drug?? His words are contradicting what Haibara told to Conan completely that she didn't mean to make a poison!

Does that mean that Haibara was working on more than one drug?? For example, APTX for killing, and another secret drug with an unknown purpose even to Gin himself?? Or Gin misunderstood the true purpose of APTX, thinking that drug was made for killing?!

[Shinan-Kudogawa]

There is a lot of things I don't understand clearly !!
In the he first meeting b/w Conan & Haibara, she said that she didn't have any intention to make a poison in the first place.

What does that mean? Did Haibara mean that she made APTX bcz it was BO order and intention, and Haibara have known it would be used as a poison, but she had nothing to do against BO?? Or she meant that there is another purpose of APTX rather than killing people, but BO were using APTX on human beings as a poison despite being incomplete? And if it's that true, why Gin said in the first episode of DC that APTX was developed as a powerful poison to kill people when he tried to kill Kudo Shinichi by this drug?? His words are contradicting what Haibara told to Conan completely that she didn't mean to make a poison!

Does that mean that Haibara was working on more than one drug?? For example, APTX for killing, and another secret drug with an unknown purpose even to Gin himself?? Or Gin misunderstood the true purpose of APTX, thinking that drug was made for killing?!

In fact Gin did say in the first file that killing is a side effect that leaves no trails behind, hence the BO started to utilize it as means to kill. Since it's very rare to have another side effect of de-aging, the BO is unaware of the de aged victims, i.e. Shinichi, Shiho/Haibara. Although I'm not sure if the case applies for Mary, Sera's mother.

APTX, is an abbreviation of Apoptosis, meaning cells kill themselves to allow new ones to be built, hence younger cells. It is a mystery for the purpose of it, but it's mostly that Miyano Atsushi and Elena were hired by BO to work on a project they thought of, hence I think the so called Silver Bullet drug started with the Miyanos, however it is part of a longer project that exceeds 50 years. Shiho, as she grew up, she built on the remain of Silver Bullet, and created a new drug which is the APTX.

** Note to be taken, Shiho went to the Mermaid Island in order to investigate the 'fake' old woman who lived more than a century in order to learn the secret.

A theory of mine is that, the drug, is meant to prolong/prevent natural death, by creating superior immune system. That's the purpose of APTX. As it was called the Silver Bullet, and the well intended Miyanos worked on it, it makes sense, that they tried to make better immune systems to fight every disease out there. But they perhaps tried to fake their death, which led to their real death when they knew the BO wanted to use the drug for malicious intentions and using it for 'certain' people.

It adds up with Vermouth's claim "We can be of both God and the devil since we are trying to raise the dead against the stream of time". Stream of time here means the eventual death that befalls us all. Raise the dead, meaning to prevent life taking it's course, OR, it can mean reviving the proclaimed 'dead' by merely returning them to the public eye after being in hiding. It also adds up with Shiho's claim that in the BO there are 'unbelievable' members, i.e. supposedly dead and/or higher up members of the government.

Speaking of the "raising the dead' quote' Itakura's program, a program made by a CG expert, is most likely having to do with Medical information, financial gathering or physical human attributes. That will play a part in putting back the 'dead' into modern society.

Karasuma's inhumane greed, and impatient nature, may illustrate the project's nature, as he doesn't intend to die just yet, perhaps living in a chained environment, he wants the project finished to help him live even more. Which might make a possible ending, when Shinichi leads to the project's demise hence to Karasuma's end, as I can't imagine him imprisoned.

The Silver Bullet/ APTX/Incomplete Detective, is mostly about DETECTING any future disease and killing it before it can affect the victim's body, however it led to even more progress by making the body even younger, as seen with Vermouth, who was likely tired with her assassin's life, and was ready to accept death due to a disease, however the success of the deaging made her bitter and spiteful towards the Miyanos as she was ready to die, and to her that seemed like an escape from her dark life.

A fairly far-fetched idea of mine about the de-aging, is that it may only affect blood relatives, Shiho/Mary/ perhaps Vermouth is a blood relative and Shinichi through some far ancestor. Since the 4 are the only canon de-aging victims, they might be relatives to Karasuma. Karasuma being some great great grandfather to all ..

If I am correct in this theory, then Pisco's remark about Shiho's progress, is that it might be the correct path, that while working on an enhanced immune system, the researchers called it 'miracle' because only them and some higher ups in the BO knew about de-aging at least to the level of Vermouth (No bone-shape change, just the exterior skins and such), which makes Pisco's remark possible (from an adult to a child, rather than from an adult to a younger adult). Which is why they would've searched after Shinichi, despite taking the drug and disappearing, but was saved thanks to Shiho's interference.


And possibly the APTX list, is listed according to the age of the victims' when they took the drug, those below Shinichi might be his age or younger.

About the BO's main goal, when asked about if their goal is world dominion, Gosho replied "rather than the world..", I'm going to assume the answer is "Japan". Karasuma's intent is to rule Japan, hence why assassinating Domon was necessary, other than the fact that he was going to be hard on crime. This does validate Karasuma's greed, and explains the BO's military -like behaviour, plus the espionage part. I think this might be one of the main reasons why foreign power agencies like the CIA, FBI and SIS are hunting down the BO in order to diminish future coups. And why the PSNB are secretly infiltrating them. Which will lead to Zero's ultimate fight to protect his beloved country against a future extreme rulership. This could also be the very reason why many higher up and rich people join the BO, in order to be part of the future ruling house of Japan.


Anokata's greed is the main driving force, but his age got the best of him, which is why he went into hiding and was presumed dead. Only to be secretly planning in the shadows, in order to rule all over Japan. APTX, is just a tool to make him live long enough to see that happen.

I think this is the most appropriate idea about Karasuma as greedy as we know him, and as the APTX is a tool for him. Can't think of more of a grand fitting for a Moriarty-inspired mastermind, who has riches, power, but lacks time..

[DonPabloElFino]

Also I sense a connection between the Kohji Haneda incident and the Miyano lab being destroyed since both seems to have occured 17 years ago. Maybe the Miyanos came to know their drug was being misused to kill people (something they had not intended) through this incident (possibly due to the involvement of Tsutomu Akai) and sensing their imminent rebellion or defection, it's likely the black org got rid of them for this reason.

[sopraine]

This is unrelated to APTX4869, but I have a theory regarding the software that Suguru Itakura made.

In the movie "The Darkest Nightmare", Rum brainwashed Curacao to become his people in a scene that shows some colourful effect digital display. This might have something to do with Itakura's software, so the software itself might be related to brainwashing. Itakura's work in movie production is related to special effect and CG, so it is likely that the software has some visual features/attributes. Furthermore, the concept of brainwashing means re-setting someone's brain with another memory, and this may also erase the current memory. Erasing memory from someone means taking him/her back to the time before he/she gains that memory, which in some way is equivalent to "...against the stream of time...".

So basically there are two ways for BO to make people age against the stream of time: By altering their physical body (APTX, silver bullet), and by altering the memory in the brain (software).

[blackmoon]

This is unrelated to APTX4869, but I have a theory regarding the software that Suguru Itakura made.

In the movie "The Darkest Nightmare", Rum brainwashed Curacao to become his people in a scene that shows some colourful effect digital display. This might have something to do with Itakura's software, so the software itself might be related to brainwashing. Itakura's work in movie production is related to special effect and CG, so it is likely that the software has some visual features/attributes. Furthermore, the concept of brainwashing means re-setting someone's brain with another memory, and this may also erase the current memory. Erasing memory from someone means taking him/her back to the time before he/she gains that memory, which in some way is equivalent to "...against the stream of time...".

So basically there are two ways for BO to make people age against the stream of time: By altering their physical body (APTX, silver bullet), and by altering the memory in the brain (software).

Hmm... yeah interesting... there's actually a doomsday novel that spoke of some similar project being carried out if anyone is interested in further reading here's a link to that: https://365novel.love/novel/global-game ... apter-236/

The novel talked about (quoting from it below):
"“The chrysalis plan, simply put, is the immortality plan.”

“Using gene modification technology, the cultivated ancestor virus is fused with human gene fragments, and the simulated life body starts to cultivate the body from gestation until the body grows into an adult body.”

“This process is also what I call remodeling.”

“We are reshaping and nurturing life, not bluntly reshaping life like Eudura.”

“After the improvement of the chrysalis plan, the functions of the body will be fully improved.”

“Finally, the pre-set gene fragments and main memory are completely integrated into the body and completely reborn.”

“Such a rebirth doesn’t produce any kind of rejection like a virus does.”

“Once the chrysalis plan is successfully implemented, I can continue to breed stronger life forms and constantly replace the body, so as to achieve the goal of immortality.”"

...The purpose of the chrysalis project is to obtain immortality. Although I have not yet been able to perform this step, the final implantation step is very difficult. It is difficult for us to save and extract the latest memory and obtain a complete base map.”

well.... remember Conan movie 6: The Phantom of Baker Street? where there was a virtual reality game system called Cocoon? Guess what chrysalis basically means cocoon

[HatiMMOS]

This is unrelated to APTX4869, but I have a theory regarding the software that Suguru Itakura made.

In the movie "The Darkest Nightmare", Rum brainwashed Curacao to become his people in a scene that shows some colourful effect digital display. This might have something to do with Itakura's software, so the software itself might be related to brainwashing. Itakura's work in movie production is related to special effect and CG, so it is likely that the software has some visual features/attributes. Furthermore, the concept of brainwashing means re-setting someone's brain with another memory, and this may also erase the current memory. Erasing memory from someone means taking him/her back to the time before he/she gains that memory, which in some way is equivalent to "...against the stream of time...".

So basically there are two ways for BO to make people age against the stream of time: By altering their physical body (APTX, silver bullet), and by altering the memory in the brain (software).

In an old Reddit post, I suggested that the BO uses a brainwashing method based on technology powered by software devs like Itakura once the BOSS sees a prospect in a person, Korn as an example.
Now, I believe that the main reason APTX is developed is a tad obvious and that the reason Itakura considers his work dangerous to humankind is the ability to alter one's memory, and that for the main purpose of it was to implant/recover Maria's memories.

It's important to note that Gosho's intended plans for Itakura's software as well as old DC mysteries could change to match the current technological advances; Just seeing what he did to Billy shows that he is ready to alter his first intentions to make sense out of it and make it look like a hint.

[HatiMMOS]

Hmm... yeah interesting... there's actually a doomsday novel that spoke of some similar project being carried out if anyone is interested in further reading here's a link to that: https://365novel.love/novel/global-game ... apter-236/

The novel talked about (quoting from it below):
"“The chrysalis plan, simply put, is the immortality plan.”

“Using gene modification technology, the cultivated ancestor virus is fused with human gene fragments, and the simulated life body starts to cultivate the body from gestation until the body grows into an adult body.”

“This process is also what I call remodeling.”

“We are reshaping and nurturing life, not bluntly reshaping life like Eudura.”

“After the improvement of the chrysalis plan, the functions of the body will be fully improved.”

“Finally, the pre-set gene fragments and main memory are completely integrated into the body and completely reborn.”

“Such a rebirth doesn’t produce any kind of rejection like a virus does.”

“Once the chrysalis plan is successfully implemented, I can continue to breed stronger life forms and constantly replace the body, so as to achieve the goal of immortality.”"

...The purpose of the chrysalis project is to obtain immortality. Although I have not yet been able to perform this step, the final implantation step is very difficult. It is difficult for us to save and extract the latest memory and obtain a complete base map.”

well.... remember Conan movie 6: The Phantom of Baker Street? where there was a virtual reality game system called Cocoon? Guess what chrysalis basically means cocoon

In the movie "The Darkest Nightmare", Rum brainwashed Curacao to become his people in a scene that shows some colourful effect digital display.

How can I be so blind yes! "the colorful effect!" The visual effects!
It must have been famous back then in Japan that lights and video effects affect the brain in a rather mysterious way after the pokemon episode seizure incident!
It was right in front of us! I was so close!
https://web.archive.org/web/20210205163 ... an_theory/
When did Gosho say that "it should be clear already to us what the software does"? was it around the early 2000s?

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Everything makes sense now

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Just the virtual sniping training scene from episode 425 must have felt like NASA at that time. The sci-fi sh*t that the BO has now must be unfathomable.
Great find.
Isn't there a more famous novel/movie/myth that Gosho is likely to come across?
APTX and the Antidote.
Blue Pill, Red Pill, sounds like The Matrix to me.

I still have the strong urge to say that this VR/hypnosis/Cocoon method should leave a mark on the eye of the victim. That would be cool.
Is there a theory on the tattoo on Chianti's face? Does it help snipers against light reverberation or something?

[Spimer]

Combined several posts into one because multi-posting and double-posting in a row isn't allowed.

Unlike a chat room, a forum is meant to have concise message / post, with all points compiled.

Please take note of that for future posting.

[blackmoon]

How can I be so blind yes! "the colorful effect!" The visual effects!
It must have been famous back then in Japan that lights and video effects affect the brain in a rather mysterious way after the pokemon episode seizure incident!
It was right in front of us! I was so close!
https://web.archive.org/web/20210205163 ... an_theory/
When did Gosho say that "it should be clear already to us what the software does"? was it around the early 2000s?

---
Everything makes sense now

---
Just the virtual sniping training scene from episode 425 must have felt like NASA at that time. The sci-fi sh*t that the BO has now must be unfathomable.
Great find.
Isn't there a more famous novel/movie/myth that Gosho is likely to come across?
APTX and the Antidote.
Blue Pill, Red Pill, sounds like The Matrix to me.

I still have the strong urge to say that this VR/hypnosis/Cocoon method should leave a mark on the eye of the victim. That would be cool.
Is there a theory on the tattoo on Chianti's face? Does it help snipers against light reverberation or something?

Hmm... well... we can look forward to the latest Conan movie since it was announced by TOHO that the 26th Detective Conan Film will open during Golden Week 2023, and the teaser hints at the plot focusing on Ai Haibara, while the film's subtitle contain the word "kuro" (black), the story's overarching antagonist group the Black Organization. Info link here:
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... 23/.191681

Since... we basically have no idea what the movie would be about yet... i do hope it answers some more questions we have about APTX as well as who this "kuro" might hint at and whether Karasuma actually has anything to do with the Black organization or not! Ah well, i'm sure Gin would be excited

[kuduro]

Hello,

Thank you for sharing and clarifying. I didn't see the story from this angle.