Why do people dislike Ran?

Kleene Onigiri · Post by **Kleene Onigiri** » July 5th, 2015, 3:09 pm

You guys are mostly pulling "evidence" out of thin air (aka it's nonexistent)

Silverbullet96 wrote:
Kor wrote:Not entirely certain how you can be sure of such a thing (considering it didn't happen and all), but...

Spoiler:
So far, the only one to actually disturb Conan's plan in a big confrontation has been Haibara (btw Ran saved her), and that is probably the most beloved confrontation and episode in the series, so I'm not sure why you'd assume that Ran would disturb his plan if she was more involved (not like this even matters, though, because it didn't happen.), nor do I understand why you think that Ran-less episodes are better when Ran participated in some of the best and most beloved episodes of the series.
You've established pretty well that you don't like Ran, and that's fine, but none of the explanations you've provided really make sense.
Well, Ran is not very far from just an ordinary high school girl, if she got involved with some of the dangerous cases she'd mostly get in danger and/or in Conan's way, unless Conan deliberately got her involved and made up a smart plan to take down the criminal. I don't really remember when Haibara has disturbed Conan's plan and I think it's clear to everybody that it's foolish to think that she's more of a hindrance to Conan than Ran.

Haibara was more of a hindrance than Ran or even the DBs.

Ran destroying a plan: Never occurred. She actually saved Haibara, who was the "unplanned hindrance".

Haibara did 4 things that come to my mind:
- She was caught by Pisco (not her fault)
- She tried to get blown up in the bus (her fault and Conan had to save her)
- She tried to give up and went to Vermouth (her fault and Ran had to save her. If Ran wouldn't have been there, Jodie would be dead, Conan caught or gaged or kidnapped by Vermouth and Haibara would have been delivered to the boss and probably killed or "enslaved" again)
- The train case, she (again), goes and tries to deliver herself to the BO and gives up (but Conan and CO. anticipated that this time)
to
What Ran did:
- She sneaked into a car and got herself into danger, but actually saved Haibara.

So Ran is a worse hindrance, because she only brought herself into danger while Haibara is delivering herself into danger AND also others (Conan and Jodie) around her? That doesn't make sense.

Nemomon wrote:The problem with Ran is that she's pretty mentally unstable, especially if the case is connected to Shinichi. She can live her life normally, but once she hears or thinks of Shinichi, she turns into a totally-random-action machine that can trigger any of these actions:

- Hug Shinichi
- Scream at Shinichi
- Cry to Shinichi
- Punch Shinichi
- Imagine a nonexistent situation, and trying to make Shinichi feel guilty^*

^*(this is the most common one as she often is overreacting when Shinichi actually is not guilty or barely guilty)

Because of that it is quite hard to trust her, because she might accidentally tell something she shouldn't, or just make a really stupid action (like what she did in the episode 345 - she is still alive only because Vermouth hesitated to kill her. If it would be anybody else (but Vermouth) she already would be dead.

Of course she is mentally unstable for a reason. It is unfair to say that she's in this condition purely because of her own actions and thoughts. Of course Shinichi is a reason why she's in this state, because she's worrying of him (despite that he constantly calls her and is telling her that he's alright).

But now we have Conan. He can see the condition of Ran's heart and mind. He can judge whether it is safe to tell her that he's Shinichi or not. Remember that Heiji blackmailed Conan to reveal the truth of his identity; it is not that Conan told him this because he wanted Heiji to know it. I think if the condition of Ran would be better, and if she would not perform random actions, I think Conan would be more interested in trusting her. Not to mention that for example in the episode 58 he told Heiji that Ran is a tiresome person.

And there's another problem to consider. What would happen after he would tell her the truth? I'm pretty sure Conan was thinking about this too. After all he was about to tell her the truth (but was stopped by Haibara). He probably came to conclusion that it will be better for her, and for everybody else if she will continue to think that he's a child, and not her "boyfriend". Even Kogoro would notice that Ran is treating Conan differently. Not to mention Sonoko who tries all her best to literally destroy Conan.

tl;dr It is not that simple to tell "Hey Ran, I'm Shinichi, I can prove that by answering billion of your questions regarding me". There are so many factors to consider that summa summarum it is beter to leave the case as it is instead of trying to change it.

- Hug Shinichi
Never happened

- Scream at Shinichi
Happened, but Conan was also screaming at the DBs sometimes. And Heiji and Kazuha are screaming at each other way more often :x

- Cry to Shinichi
I think she only cried directly to Shinichi in the London case, but that was because of a serious romantic reason XD

- Punch Shinichi
She never punched Shinichi (she punched stuff next to him to show her anger. Tho that was also only at the early episodes)

- Imagine a nonexistent situation, and trying to make Shinichi feel guilty^*
She never tried to make Shinichi feel guilty. She was jealous in one episode (the one with the girlfriend and stuff). But here she wanted to know the truth and asked Shinichi. There was no guilt-tripping. She confronted Shinichi, which is not guilt-tripping.

There is no evidence on her being mentally unstable. She cries because she is worried, but she isn't mentally unstable that she's trying to suicide (as another certain character does).
She's pretty motivated and even more mentally stable when she thinks about Shinichi. You can see that in the episode, where she solves that one case where Jodie is there too (with the help of Shinichi). Or also that episode where she confronts her old teacher where she had that phone-thingy-earring. This is proof that she#s mentally stable in serious situations and is not distracted by Shinichi or thinking about him.

Also, there was a phase where Ran thought that Conan is Shinichi. She didn't really act much different besides that she didn't want to bath with him anymore. So she wouldn't act much different now or better said, she would be able to act normal to Conan.

On the other hand, Shinichi is mentally unstable when it involves Ran. Your Post made me realize that. Every time Shinichi thinks Ran is in danger he acts on impulse and can't stay calm and think clearly.
As proof: There was that one case where he thought Ran is in danger and tired to run to her just thinking "Ran, Ran, Ran".
Or when Ran was sleeping next to Conan in that murder case, where that one Guy cut off someone's head and cut the body into pieces. (Sonoko's Sister was there for the first time I think). He couldn't think anymore XD (he said so himself)

But with that we could assume that Conan doesn't want to reveal his identity, because he would be distracted by Ran maybe? It's not because of Ran being unstable, but because of Shinichi being unstable.

Kleene Onigiri · Post by **Kleene Onigiri** » July 5th, 2015, 3:12 pm

Nemomon wrote: Also, Bourbon invigilated the Poirot Cafe. What would happen if Ran would find this out? Would she manage to pretend that she doesn't know a thing? After all even Conan himself was feeling very uneasy when Bourbon was around. What about Ran who sometimes cannot control herself? The FBI during the Scarlet arc also had some hard times with dealing with Bourbon. What about a normal teenage girl?

It would actually give Haibara some cover. Since Haibara isn't able to act normal around people that she thinks are BO or get the "BO vibes" from.
So if Ran would also be cautious around those people, Haibara wouldn't stand out. Ran would also be able to comfort Haibara if she knew she's anxious with some people. Ran would be able to get her out of such situations, saying something like: "Haibara, let's go to the bathroom." Or "Let's go look at this, it's so nice here" and similar.

Antiyonder · Post by **Antiyonder** » July 5th, 2015, 3:13 pm

Heck, with it. I'm going to repost all of my rebuttals as there's isn't much posting going on. Basically what I'm posting is:
1. Response to various arguments about how Ran finding out would be "problematic" and why that's arguably not so.
2. The benefits to such a development.

Cons
Spoiler: compressed content
1. It will limit the potential for new stories and thus resulting in having to end the story: This I believe is the big reason why this particular change has yet to occur.

Now if there are some really substantial stories in the future that can't work with Ran in the know, then ok. But if it's something like the 5th, 6th, 7th and so on rehash of "Ran has stumbled onto Conan's secret, now he has to pull off a jerkish move to throw her off" or to have yet another moment where Shinichi and Ran end up in such an intimate situation, we've been down both roads before. So yeah lets try some growth.

Or looking at the standard cases that Conan solves as Kogoro, compared to the earliest episodes with this structure, Ran barely gets in the way of Conan nowadays that her being aware, wouldn't really hurt the formula that much or at all.

And really, the Pros section will hopefully demonstrate that the change will open up many new stories to compensate for any possible losses. Cause even with this change in the status quo, the show still won't end until the organization is found, and a permanent cure is found.

2. It would mess up the status quo for the movie going audiences in the films: It wouldn't be the first anime series with movies to do so, and it's not that complicating of a change. Especially with the opening which gives exposition for said audience.

3. Ran and Kogoro will be in danger: Basically the biggest reason in story, with the mindset that if the organization finds out who Shinichi is, they'll sort out who else knows said secret and kill them.

Also Kleene Onigiri, agreed.

But, the manga/anime demonstrates that Gin or any other member would be more likely to kill someone connected to the target without taking the time to see if they are aware of the organization or not. More on this in Pros 5, though there's another thing to consider in this regard.

If anything, living with them is more likely to make them a potential target than whether they know his secret or not. And considering he has other means of getting a lead, such as the connections that his own father has, it means he doesn't have a valid reason for staying with Ran & Kogoro other than ego and status quo.

4. Ran would become a hindrance (i.e. trying to help out, only to get in the way) or that Conan will let his guard down around her and compromise his cover: Yes and no. One reason for no, I'll cover in the pros list, but another rebuttal to this is that it works both ways.

Lets look at Episode 522 for example. Shinichi has to make a getaway from Ran, Kogoro & Kazuha before he reverts back to Conan and barely avoids getting caught, while having to have another antidote. Then the next episode has him in the same situation, only on the highway with more people who would witness the transformation.

So, basically if Ran was in on the secret by Episode 522, she and Heiji would have stood a better chance at helping Shinichi to perserve his secret and maybe even negating the need to have that antidote.

Heck, look way back in Episode 10. For a quick recap, a girl came to the detective agency and was hoping to find Shinichi as she apparently is his girlfriend. (which was really her trying get his attention for help in finding a missing person).

So Ran and Conan goes with her, back to her home. Conan shortly after, hides in the bathroom to call this client as Shinichi. Needless to say, Ran thinks that Shinichi has been seeing this girl, and upon finding that he's actually in the house tries to enter the bathroom to corner him.

As such, Conan has to spend quite a bit of time dodging her, and soon after, running out to conceal his secret. So yeah, keeping her in dark is necessary to prevent her from becoming a hindrance indeed.
Pros
Spoiler: compressed content
1. Possible sexist vibes aside, in truth, a character like Ran isn't in of itself problematic, especially had the story been merely 100 episodes/20 volumes long. But in a series which spans over 600 episodes/70 volumes, a character like Ran who really doesn't do much in the long run, yet appears frequently could benefit from some big change.

Better in that working to uncover Conan's secret and having to cope with it would provide her with something to do other than being the "not" girlfriend who sits and waits for Shinichi (which the earliest of stories really didn't overdo to be fair and why her current depiction is problematic).

2. Now frankly it is harsh to insist she is dumb for not figuring it out. Mainly because unlike the fictional worlds in Marvel and DC Comics where such Sci-Fi aspects are more commonplace, a person getting smaller is a rarity in Conan's world.

Though it doesn't help that those who weren't as close to Shinichi figured it out. Not to mention that even when the suspicion returns/rises, she doesn't try much to cover her tracks and doesn't rework her plan of getting a confession out of him (i.e. getting the best possible evidence and backing him into a corner so much, that he won't have a way to throw her off).

Thus going all out until she gets the truth gives her back some much needed edge, not to mention taking Conan down a peg and helping to remove the Gary Stu vibes that he has.

3. Overall, the secrecy and the heartbreak/drama it causes towards Ran (especially in 193, 523 and 617) really hampers the healthy feeling that the relationship should have. So to have the story end without Shinichi telling her the truth would be too cold, even for him.

And to just end with him revealing the truth, only for her to brush it off as a minor annoyance would be cheap (don't much like how those particular fanfics pull that stunt).

Having the secret come out would allow for them to actually start mending their friendship and eventually resulting in a more healthy relationship when the series ends.

4. In line with the 4th Con, yeah I'm sure Ran would get in the way trying to help him, but that's what character development is for. Basically as the story goes on, Ran learns that Conan/Shinichi has to act alone or at least not with her all the time.

But on the other end of the spectrum, it gives Conan a chance for character growth in that sometimes he will need to swallow his pride and accept help from Ran (even asking her). Not to mention we get to see some additional struggle with Conan having to still keep up the act so that his secret isn't further compromised while allowing for moments where he slips.

5. As touched upon in the rebuttal to the 1st con, it's actually arguable whether keeping Ran (and even Kogoro) out of the loop keeps them safe. Episode 425 has Kogoro ending up nearly being killed despite the secrecy, and as we saw, Gin isn't going to go the honor route and spare anyone who is deemed harmless. So, telling them would actually give them a chance to better protect themselves.

Not to mention that, since then, we've seen many people finding out since then, only for nothing to come of it. And the more that others find out about it, keeping Ran out of this circle becomes more ridiculous.

Heck, he revealed himself to Eisuke for reasons of ego rather than out of practicality.

6. For a nice little bit of ironic tension, Ran would eventually find herself having to help maintain the secret that not too long ago she did her best to uncover.

7. If you still need more drama, well look no more. After all is said and done, even when Ran and Conan's friendship/relationship began to recover (with the secrets between them dealt with), they still can't exactly be together in the romantic sense. I mean, even with the fact that Conan is really 16/17, there's still a strong, physical age difference between them.

Even knowing that it's Shinichi, I can't imagine Ran being comfortable at getting physical with someone who looks like a 6/7 year old boy. Ergo, there's some legit tension in the form of Ran and Shinichi wanting to act on their feeling, but not being able to until a cure is found.

Also adding to the Pros, let face it. The set up of the show means that certain changes cannot occur without flat out changing the premise of the series, or specifically prompt it to end. Things like:
1. Haibara deciding to tell Conan some helpful secrets about the Organization.
2. Shinichi and Ran becoming a couple.

These particular elements would require bringing about the end of the series. In the case of the former, setting up a final arc, and the latter would be one of the closing aspects of the final arc.

But Ran finding out about Conan's secret and becoming another direct ally? Best of both worlds. Freshens up the status quo, and doesn't compromise the the ability to continue the series, as the Pros I listed before hand hopefully prove.

Nemomon · Post by **Nemomon** » July 5th, 2015, 4:16 pm

[quote=Kleene Onigiri]

Spoiler:

[/quote]

You are all correct, except of a 1 thing. Haibara is the main staff in this show (the plot of the series, not the DC anime), she is the one that started all of this, and it is impossible to push forward the plot without her involvement. She's a permanent part of the ongoing BO case whether she wants that, or not. Ran from the other hand plays a second role, and the whole BO case will be going forward even if she will be gone. Ran plays an important role in another drama, but in the BO case shes just a minor character. This is why Haibara is a hindrance, because she's directly involved in the case. Neither Ran or DB are a hindrance, because they're too minor characters to actually be able to be a hindrance.

Haibara is a kind of emo. We know that. She feels that she's responsible for that, and from one side she wants to atone what she did, and from another side she wants to escape the whole situation. She believes that if she will die, she fianlly will stop being afraid of the BO. She knows them, and she exactly knows of what she's afraid of. And more importantly why she's afraid.

Conan also knows that she's afraid of the BO for a serious reasons. He also knows that Haibara might try to commit suicide if there will be a right occasion. That can be called a hindrance, but generally it is something Conan should be aware of and should be prepared of.

Another thing to discuss probably would be what would happen if Haibara actually managed to kill herself. What Conan would do next. If he would be able to track down the BO... But it seems this is for another topic.

[quote=Kleene Onigiri]

Spoiler:

[/quote]

- Hug Shinichi
Never happened

Maybe should. Shinichi at least once would feel that Ran has also some other feelings (besides rage). Just like sometimes it is worth to say to the significant other that You love them despite that You both know that.

- Scream at Shinichi
Happened, but Conan was also screaming at the DBs sometimes. And Heiji and Kazuha are screaming at each other way more often :x

When Conan screams at the DBs, he definitely has a reason to scream. And anyway he quite rarely screams, more often he's just annoyed. From the other side, Ran screams much often than he's screaming at the DBs. About Heiji and Kazuha. They're both having a fierce temperament. In the Shinichi-Ran couple though only Ran has a fierce temperament.

- Imagine a nonexistent situation, and trying to make Shinichi feel guilty*
She never tried to make Shinichi feel guilty. She was jealous in one episode (the one with the girlfriend and stuff). But here she wanted to know the truth and asked Shinichi. There was no guilt-tripping. She confronted Shinichi, which is not guilt-tripping.

What I meant in there was that she sees something (that normally doesn't matter), and makes a big commotion over it. For example in the recent special she was mad at everybody (including Kogoro, even HE WAS wondering what happened to her) just because he didn't pick up a phone when she was calling. Please... Is this a good reason to be constantly angry? Yeah, I know that the special is anime original, and not manga based, but it still adds up to why people dislike her. Also her punching things and destroying stuff for no apparent reason isn't putting her in a better light either.

She might be indeed worried, she might be pretty strong, and pretend to be strong when the situation calls, but it is just that she sometimes performs a too random action. And even that would be acceptable if she was able to find herself in every situation. Unfortunately she's just a normal teenage girl, same normal as 99% of the other girls her age. But to be able to stand against the BO one must be outstanding. Normal people have no chance to survive. It is not that Ran is stupid (she certainly is not). It is just that she doesn't have enough knowledge to be able to get out from different dangerous situations.

BTW, I remember the episode during which Ran, Conan and Sonoko went to the horror room (that one during which the victim died on the opertion table. Ran was panicked. This was just a normal room with some horror creatured, but Ran was scared. But the most important thing is what she did to Conan. Look at the episode, she didn't keep Conan in a way "Conan, I will protect you if anything will happen". She kept him like he would be a shield "if anything will happen, they first will hit Conan, and if I will be unlucky they will hit me too".

Another matter is that she's kind of impressionable.

[quote=Kleene Onigiri]It would actually give Haibara some cover. Since Haibara isn't able to act normal around people that she thinks are BO or get the "BO vibes" from.
So if Ran would also be cautious around those people, Haibara wouldn't stand out. Ran would also be able to comfort Haibara if she knew she's anxious with some people. Ran would be able to get her out of such situations, saying something like: "Haibara, let's go to the bathroom." Or "Let's go look at this, it's so nice here" and similar.[/quote]

Hehe, I like how You're saying how useful Ran could be. But the main question is whether she herself could keep her cool while talking to the Bourbon. You say that she would take Haibara to the restroom. But could she do that without giving a signal that something is odd? Could she be able to go to the restroom without showing Bourbon that she's a bit nervous?

@

Antiyonder : I will answer You too, but not today.

Antiyonder · Post by **Antiyonder** » July 5th, 2015, 4:30 pm

Nemomon wrote:Antiyonder : I will answer You too, but not today.

As long as you give my points some serious consideration, I'm good for waiting.

In the mean time,

Hehe, I like how You're saying how useful Ran could be. But the main question is whether she herself could keep her cool while talking to the Bourbon. You say that she would take Haibara to the restroom. But could she do that without giving a signal that something is odd? Could she be able to go to the restroom without showing Bourbon that she's a bit nervous?

Well in relation to my points this would make for a nice character building for Ran. Have her trying to get more involved in things and eventually working to find a balance between giving Shinichi some space and being helpful.

When Conan screams at the DBs, he definitely has a reason to scream. And anyway he quite rarely screams, more often he's just annoyed. From the other side, Ran screams much often than he's screaming at the DBs. About Heiji and Kazuha. They're both having a fierce temperament.

In some cases I agree with you like when she's upset that Shinichi possibly had a girlfriend, despite not being in an official relationship with him.

But when it comes to his dishonesty in regards to his absence, I'm afraid that Ran has legit reasons to be pissed. Having some faith that he needs to lay low is admirable, but he needs to either return that faith for their friendship to work, or make himself distant from her.

In the Shinichi-Ran couple though only Ran has a fierce temperament.

Except Shinichi has an unhealthy ego and unwillingness to consider that Ran could be a good ally in this. And really the whole "I'm doing it to keep her safe" is iffy considering that living with her can also put her at risk. At unlike the early parts of the storyline where Kogoro is the best chance at finding a lead to the BO, nowadays he has people like say Akai or even fellow detective like Heiji who is even more capable than Kogoro and doesn't need the case to strike close to home in order to be efficient.

And the whole keeping Ran and Kogoro in the dark to keep them safe only works if Gin and Vodka share the same bits of humanity that others like Vermouth have. And somehow if they were to discover Conan's true id, I'm having doubts that they will act all honorable and make sure if Ran and Kogoro are in the dark. The fact they live with Conan would likely guarantee them a dirt nap.

Anyone that they would likely spare for concealment purposes would be though like Yusaku, Yukiko or Eri as they aren't in the company of Conan as frequently.

Christcc9 · Post by **Christcc9** » July 5th, 2015, 4:46 pm

Kor wrote:
Christcc9 wrote:
Spoiler:
Because I'm sure she'd disturb the plan if she got involved in it. Something like: "Conan-kun? What are you doing in this dark room all alone?? Are you talking to your bow tie???"
shouting, microphone on, her voice coming out the mask of Yusaku
And no staring for hours at Akai moment.
Not entirely certain how you can be sure of such a thing (considering it didn't happen and all), but...

Spoiler:
So far, the only one to actually disturb Conan's plan in a big confrontation has been Haibara (btw Ran saved her), and that is probably the most beloved confrontation and episode in the series, so I'm not sure why you'd assume that Ran would disturb his plan if she was more involved (not like this even matters, though, because it didn't happen.), nor do I understand why you think that Ran-less episodes are better when Ran participated in some of the best and most beloved episodes of the series.
You've established pretty well that you don't like Ran, and that's fine, but none of the explanations you've provided really make sense.

It happened several times in basic cases when Conan is acting Kogoro's voice.

I'm a Ran hater I think LoL
Seriously I don't why I don't like her, her voice perhaps - I don't know!

kkslider5552000 · Post by **kkslider5552000** » July 5th, 2015, 5:45 pm

Sorry guys, I don't have anything to root for for whether Conan not telling Ran is smart or not. At least from a character perspective. From a writing perspective, Ran finding out herself is one of the top 5 things that NEED to happen in terms of satisfying writing and character development. Both in terms of her finding out and any follow-up to it.

That being said, offer proof that is actually based on things that actually happened plz. Making things up kills your credibility pretty quickly when you are surrounded by people that know the series like the back of their hand. There's no point even bothering if you're just making things up.

Kleene Onigiri · Post by **Kleene Onigiri** » July 5th, 2015, 7:39 pm

Going to sleep, so just answering to one thing fast :x

Nemomon wrote: Hehe, I like how You're saying how useful Ran could be. But the main question is whether she herself could keep her cool while talking to the Bourbon. You say that she would take Haibara to the restroom. But could she do that without giving a signal that something is odd? Could she be able to go to the restroom without showing Bourbon that she's a bit nervous?

Yes, she can. And I already showed cases where she can keep her cool.
For one she was able to deduct a case (the case with Jodie around at the super market thing). And she deducted another case where she confronted her old teacher. She was actually keeping her cool and was composed while facing her old teacher, someone she admired and was close to her.
She also repeatedly showed that she can save other people in a pinch. Her reactions are accurate in dangerous situations. Like she saved Sonoko out of a car that rolled down a cliff.
Her doing karate is also improving her concentration and she also showed that she's not scared of dangerous people (just of ghosts).
She might not be a actress like Yukiko, but she can definitely stay calm.

@kkslider:
I'd prefer it if Ran would find out the truth herself too.
But my point was that story wise, there is no reason for Conan to keep his identity a secret anymore. There is just this status quo that's hurting Ran's character the most (also other characters, e.g Haibara is influenced by it too)

Silverbullet96 · Post by **Silverbullet96** » July 5th, 2015, 10:14 pm

Kleene Onigiri wrote:Yes, she can. And I already showed cases where she can keep her cool.
For one she was able to deduct a case (the case with Jodie around at the super market thing). And she deducted another case where she confronted her old teacher. She was actually keeping her cool and was composed while facing her old teacher, someone she admired and was close to her.
She also repeatedly showed that she can save other people in a pinch. Her reactions are accurate in dangerous situations. Like she saved Sonoko out of a car that rolled down a cliff.
Her doing karate is also improving her concentration and she also showed that she's not scared of dangerous people (just of ghosts).
She might not be a actress like Yukiko, but she can definitely stay calm.

So I think our discussion boils down to whether you think Ran could mentally be able to cope with being a target & being literally very close to the most dangerous criminal organization in the world. And no, she can't. She's just a teenage high school girl. Sure she can perform stunts and has confidence in her Karate, but being heavily involved with the BO is way different than saving Sonoko in an action sequence. Forget about helping Haibara, we've seen a lot of tough characters, for eg. Jodie from FBI getting a bit shaky in front of BO, even Gin and Bourbon (when Shuuichi shows up), and you think Mouri Ran of all people can deal with being very close to the center of these guys like a champ ? Yeah, no. Not to mention that she even gives a small look to the BO of her changed behavior with Conan, she blows his cover for good right there and then.

P.S. I remember she cried uncontrollably during that teacher case.

kkslider5552000 · Post by **kkslider5552000** » July 5th, 2015, 11:09 pm

Ok, I will say, I think a major issue is that Conan is a superhero essentially. He is like shonen Batman pratically, but obviously in context of the series, that's not true. But that's how shonen frequently is, you have your super powerful people and then the not so super people. It might've worked but Gosho made Ran seem like she had legit super strength (even if it was frequently for lols) and her general karate skill just kills the belief that Ran is somehow too normal compared to say...Heiji. Don't buy that at all.

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of potential logical reasons get in the way of making a series more interesting. At the end of the day, I'm more interested in a series being entertaining than being 100% believable (though a balance of both is usually preferable). So even if you're 100% right, I still hope she finds out sooner rather than later (obviously she will before the series is over, I don't think there's any doubt).

Antiyonder · Post by **Antiyonder** » July 5th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Silverbullet96 wrote:Not to mention that she even gives a small look to the BO of her changed behavior with Conan, she blows his cover for good right there and then.

1. We don't know for sure that would happen though. And need I bring up that Heiji regularly slips up and refers to Conan as Kudo, and yet nothing has come of it.

It's fine to consider that Ran might compromise their safety, but I think it's pretty hasty to act as it being a certain thing

2. Conan slips up to Eisuke for no other reason than to cock block him. I think that's a reason to reconsider the validity of keeping things a secret from her.

3. Isn't it possible for Ran to work on maintaining the secret as time goes on? Maybe have Yukiko helping her to keep up the pretense. Character development does a mind good you know.

Once again, keeping Ran in the dark seems to stem from a couple reasons out of universe:
- Lack of ambition.
- The outdated notion that a love interest should be one note.

She's just a teenage high school girl.

Yeah, your average teenager (male or female) don't single target on one single person, and yet Ran remains devoted to Shinichi inspite of constant secrecy. I mean there are teens who tend to fall out of love for reasons that can be trivial, and yet she refuses to even consider any other guy as a love interest.

And in all honesty, people can sometimes find inner strength that they didn't even know they've had. Especially when their loved ones or friends actually show them tremendous faith.

Forget about helping Haibara, we've seen a lot of tough characters, for eg. Jodie from FBI getting a bit shaky in front of BO, even Gin and Bourbon (when Shuuichi shows up), and you think Mouri Ran of all people can deal with being very close to the center of these guys like a champ ?

Doesn't matter. You're still basing your stance on what ifs, rather than pure fact. And because I'm guessing you didn't check out my previous two cents, keeping her in the dark has proven to be just as much a liability as telling her the truth might be:

4. Ran would become a hindrance (i.e. trying to help out, only to get in the way) or that Conan will let his guard down around her and compromise his cover: Yes and no. One reason for no, I'll cover in the pros list, but another rebuttal to this is that it works both ways.

Lets look at Episode 522 for example. Shinichi has to make a getaway from Ran, Kogoro & Kazuha before he reverts back to Conan and barely avoids getting caught, while having to have another antidote. Then the next episode has him in the same situation, only on the highway with more people who would witness the transformation.

So, basically if Ran was in on the secret by Episode 522, she and Heiji would have stood a better chance at helping Shinichi to perserve his secret and maybe even negating the need to have that antidote.

Heck, look way back in Episode 10. For a quick recap, a girl came to the detective agency and was hoping to find Shinichi as she apparently is his girlfriend. (which was really her trying get his attention for help in finding a missing person).

So Ran and Conan goes with her, back to her home. Conan shortly after, hides in the bathroom to call this client as Shinichi. Needless to say, Ran thinks that Shinichi has been seeing this girl, and upon finding that he's actually in the house tries to enter the bathroom to corner him.

As such, Conan has to spend quite a bit of time dodging her, and soon after, running out to conceal his secret. So yeah, keeping her in dark is necessary to prevent her from becoming a hindrance indeed.

And did I forget to mention that in the Shiragami arc that Ran tried to keep Shinichi from fleeing, and nearly causing his secret to come out to Kogoro, Kazuha and even some complete strangers? Had she been in on the secret, she and Heiji together would have likely been able to help him make a better escape without him having to take a second pill soon after.

Sorry if I'm coming off strong, but I think my Cons and Pros list at least give a solid reason as to why this status quo element needs to change and other than Nemomon who's willing to give it a read over and response later, I have yet to see a direct response to my list from those in the camp who believe Ran needs to be kept out of things.

kkslider5552000 and Kleene Onigiri: See the superhero angle is another reason why we need to see this change. Early on it seemed like Shinichi's predicament was suppose to teach him the error's of his hubris ways. Even Agasa pointed out that he needs to refrain from making rash decisions lest he faces death as a consequence.

Yet the manga nowadays rarely seems to regard him as well a person who's capable of being wrong. The London arc especially makes it seem like Ran is being unreasonable because she expects her friend to you know, be truthful towards her.

Heck, the majority of confession fics tend to fall into the trap of having Ran be completely understanding and fine that her best friend has been deceitful for quite some time to her. Which again is why I think so highly of the fic in my signature. It shows understanding towards Conan's plight while keeping in mind that his good intentions don't always make his course of action right.

Having this development would not only serve Ran's character well, but it would be a brilliant way to have Conan dealing with the fact that for all of his positive qualities, he is still just as capable of screwing up like any other mortal and needs to sometimes admit when he's wrong.

Case in point. Will Ran cope with the knowledge perfectly? Definitely not. But if given the chance to be part of the secret and given some help (again having Yukiko help her to control her emotions to the point that she can keep from hasty reactions), she could be just as reliable as Agasa, Haibara and Heiji. In the process, Conan would have to cope with the fact that he greatly underestimated someone who shows

But with how Gosho writes the character, I'm afraid that he views Conan to be in the right and that his good intentions justifies his distrustfulness and that Ran will under react in the end.

kkslider5552000 · Post by **kkslider5552000** » July 6th, 2015, 12:33 am

But again, he's directly stated Haibara serves as his voice at points. And Haibara has criticized Conan. That's extremely significant. It's hard for me to believe based on that that Gosho isn't aware about this, to at least some degree.

Silverbullet96 · Post by **Silverbullet96** » July 6th, 2015, 12:36 am

Antiyonder wrote:
1. We don't know for sure that would happen though. And need I bring up that Heiji regularly slips up and refers to Conan as Kudo, and yet nothing has come of it.

It's fine to consider that Ran might compromise their safety, but I think it's pretty hasty to act as it being a certain thing

Her behavior is going to change drastically, that IS for sure. It's not the same for her as it is for Yukiko and others who know the secret, for Ran like I said, her life revolves around Shinichi a lot, its going to be a BIG thing for her, plus she's just not as smart as sharp as the others who know the secret.

Yeah, your average teenager (male or female) don't single target on one single person, and yet Ran remains devoted to Shinichi inspite of constant secrecy. I mean there are teens who tend to fall out of love for reasons that can be trivial, and yet she refuses to even consider any other guy as a love interest.

That's mature of her. But I don't see how being somewhat romantically stable helps her to deal with BO and the horrors that come with it. It's a totally different thing.

Doesn't matter. You're still basing your stance on what ifs, rather than pure fact. And because I'm guessing you didn't check out my previous two cents, keeping her in the dark has proven to be just as much a liability as telling her the truth might be:

[/quote]

You say I'm basing my stance on what ifs, but the things you and a lot of people are basing your opinion on, such as how keeping Ran in the dark is a liability, those are still not facts and are just theories & opinions. Ran is not ready mentally to hang with the BO or any other extremely dangerous situation, cause I've seen her and have an idea of her personality and mental capabilities. You guys are saying she can do it because she is tough enough to wait for her love, and I say that's a completely different thing, you say she can do it because she istough enough to save Sonoko from a car, I still say that doesn't mean she can cope with the fact that she's very close (also literally) to the center of the most dangerous criminal organization on the world. We all only have our theories here but there are theories that make more or less sense, and as far as I can see mine makes more sense. An average high school girl won't suddenly become badass enough to hang with the BO like its nothing as you and Onigiri are implying.

Antiyonder · Post by **Antiyonder** » July 6th, 2015, 1:35 am

Silverbullet96 wrote:Her behavior is going to change drastically, that IS for sure. It's not the same for her as it is for Yukiko and others who know the secret, for Ran like I said, her life revolves around Shinichi a lot, its going to be a BIG thing for her, plus she's just not as smart as sharp as the others who know the secret.

Fair enough. I'm not saying that it would be wise to rush into confessing things or that it's the perfect solution. It's just that for reasons I'm listing, keeping her in the dark isn't anymore perfect.

There are valid reasons to fear bringing her in, but I said validity can sometimes be exaggerated.

That's mature of her. But I don't see how being somewhat romantically stable helps her to deal with BO and the horrors that come with it. It's a totally different thing.

Acknowledged and I can definitely concede to being wrong on this matter.

You say I'm basing my stance on what ifs, but the things you and a lot of people are basing your opinion on, such as how keeping Ran in the dark is a liability, those are still not facts and are just theories & opinions.

Perhaps, but there are proven facts tossed in with the speculation. Such as that early case where he had to put more effort into hiding from Ran as opposed to solving the kidnapping case, or nearly reverting back into Conan in public.

Both in fact from the manga which is entirely creator based.

Ran is not ready mentally to hang with the BO or any other extremely dangerous situation, cause I've seen her and have an idea of her personality and mental capabilities.

True, but sometimes in life whether real or fictional, one doesn't always have the luxury of preparation when ending up in bad situations.

An average high school girl won't suddenly become badass enough to hang with the BO like its nothing as you and Onigiri are implying.

I never said straight out or inferred that she'd turn into a sudden badass. I merely said that with time and help, she could at least be able to help out from time to time.

Incidentally, part of the rationalization I see for keeping her in the dark is that she'll be safe. But wouldn't being in regular proximity with Conan prompt Gin and Vodka to plug her rather than taking the time to evaluate whether she knows or not?

I mean out unlike some of the later members of the Organization, I don't see them being all that honorable in regards to sparing the life of someone on the basis that they may be ignorant to Shinichi's secret. Heck, Agasa could simply be seen as a fair killing simply for harbouring the traitor to the BO as opposed to his knowledge on their existence.

I'm not opposed to being wrong on the subject, but if you think that telling her is more trouble than it's worth, maybe you could provide a rebuttal to my Cons list. If I was truly wrong, it should be a piece of cake to rip apart my reasoning listed.

kkslider5552000 wrote:But again, he's directly stated Haibara serves as his voice at points. And Haibara has criticized Conan. That's extremely significant. It's hard for me to believe based on that that Gosho isn't aware about this, to at least some degree.

True, but Haibara is known for snap judgments herself.

But look at the discussing we've had on whether Ran should be kept in the dark or trusted to keep their secrets. You'd think that if said decision was meant to be questionable, as opposed to a necessary evil, that someone in their circle would point out some of the flaws of the whole "lie to protect her and us from the BO".

Aside from say Heiji's suggesting him to come clean in the Desperate Revival arc, pretty much everyone in the know has yet to challenge Conan on the matter. Maybe someone pointing out "You know Shinichi, the fact that she and her old man live with you could just as easily seal their fates.".

Silverbullet96 · Post by **Silverbullet96** » July 6th, 2015, 1:47 am

Antiyonder wrote:Perhaps, but there are proven facts tossed in with the speculation. Such as that early case where he had to put more effort into hiding from Ran as opposed to solving the kidnapping case, or nearly reverting back into Conan in public.

Both in fact from the manga which is entirely creator based.

That's just a bit of trouble Conan will have to deal with for the greater good.

True, but sometimes in life whether real or fictional, one doesn't always have the luxury of preparation when ending up in bad situations.

Duh, it IS because Ran is not prepared that's why she's been kept in the dark, we do have the luxury of choice here whether to keep her ignorant, or tell her and potentially get her in serious trouble. You cannot deliberately get her in trouble and then say "one doesn't always have the the luxury of preparation" when you had the luxury of choice to keep her out of it.

I never said straight out or inferred that she'd turn into a sudden badass. I merely said that with time and help, she could at least be able to help out from time to time.

Incidentally, part of the rationalization I see for keeping her in the dark is that she'll be safe. But wouldn't being in regular proximity with Conan prompt Gin and Vodka to plug her rather than taking the time to evaluate whether she knows or not?

I mean out unlike some of the later members of the Organization, I don't see them being all that honorable in regards to sparing the life of someone on the basis that they may be ignorant to Shinichi's secret. Heck, Agasa could simply be seen as a fair killing simply for harbouring the traitor to the BO as opposed to his knowledge on their existence.

I'm not opposed to being wrong on the subject, but if you think that telling her is more trouble than it's worth, maybe you could provide a rebuttal to my Cons list. If I was truly wrong, it should be a piece of cake to rip apart my reasoning listed.

Yeah, she still is in danger even if she doesn't find out, but situation would unnecessarily get more complicated and even more troublesome if she did find out. And they don't have the time or chances to wait for Ran to get used to it, she may easily blow the cover before she does.

Why do people dislike Ran?

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