Doctor Who?

[Kaito Lady]

I can't stand river because she was only there for the romance and to be the Doctor's wife. If we believe Moffat, she had so little influence in his life the weapon of doom used to destroy Gallifrey chose to become Bad Wolf because she was "most influential"and not River, thus making her seem like nothing...
If she had been written better I might have liked her, but I really don't....

I think she was more there to bring actual true and honest romance, not just the one-sided love we often see from the companions(Martha, Clara), or the "yes-I-love-you-but-have-my-clone-instead" love(10/Rose).

Their romance is more forced than two magnets being pulled together.

I think I'll side with Moon and agree that River's love is a lot like Ginny's, but yet both loves were true loves.
If we analyze how they fell in love River didn't love him from the beginning, she was genuinly trying to kill him in Berlin, but then she saw the love the Doctor had for this River person and...dunno, realized she wanted to be that person and be with the Doctor(thus reviving him)...I'll give it to you that at that episode it was pretty forced. That was how she fell in love for him.
The Doctor, I think it came a lot more slowly for him(mainly because he new how it was gonna end) And he was rather awkward at the beginning with her (Flesh and Stone), and when she first kissed him he was rather flustered. After the Pandorica I think he finally got used to her being there and then they chased the Silence for...what was it? 3 months? I think he got to know her pretty well during that time and from then on I fail to see why any love he might have displayed for her would be forced.
If anything, her love for him would almost be forced and not his love for her...huh, a total change of places of the normal one-sided love almost wouldn't it be?

[Iwamoto Yuri]

during their hunt of the silence the Doctor was locked up...
But it was her forcing herself on him at first, eventually he did like her, but clearly not enough for her to appear instead of Bad Wolf. I think that's what bothers me most about her... all the things she went through and all he ended up doing was still preferring Rose over her in the long term.
That and her being born then raised to kill/love the Doctor like that's everything she could be.

[mangaluva]

River had the potential to be a really interesting character, but unsurprisingly, Moffat buggered that up. The main problem with her as a character is that she's horribly developed. Her entire existence--all of her goals, her career paths, wants and fears--revolve around the Doctor. That might have worked on its own, what with her having been raised and manipulated into being obsessed with him, but a) her love for him is treated by the show as healthy and normal and not overly obsessive or dependent or the result of her being completely psychologically unbalanced, and b) it's part of a larger trend in the Moffat era of female characters meeting the Doctor as a children and their lives subsequently revolving entirely around him. RTD-era companions had fully developed interpersonal relationships, career paths, life goals and personalities separate from the Doctor. Amy, Clara and River all shape their entire life paths--in Clara's case, multiple lives--around their meetings with the Doctor, and their life outside of him, if it exists, has little impact on their travels. Neither Amy nor Clara have any discernible long-term life plans or goals before travelling with the Doctor—neither did Rose, but this was explicitly pointed out and lamented by her, and her uneventful nineteen years are a source of great frustration for her and the reason she chooses to go with the Doctor. Amy, by contrast, seems to be just killing time before she meets the Doctor again, and I don't recall Clara's "101 Places To See before You Die" book appearing after her first episode, which is too bad because it would have given her motivation and made for a great starting point for episodes. Their family relationships are more or less nonexistent (literally in Amy’s case, although I also don’t recall the aunt that she supposedly lived with ever appearing), and the only one to have a romantic relationship outside of the Doctor—Amy—has that one entirely shaped by the Doctor. Not passively, like how seeing the universe with the Doctor changed Rose as a person and made her relationship with Mickey show itself as being on rocky ground, but in that the Doctor actively decides that he needs to “fix” Rory and Amy’s relationship when Amy starts macking on him—not, it should be noted, because he genuinely thinks that they have a good relationship that just has some issues that need worked out, because he knows nothing about their relationship beyond that they’re getting married, but because he doesn’t want to e in a relationship with Amy and “solves” that by shoving her onto another guy. Also, when they’re having legitimate relationship issues over the surprisingly well-developed idea of Amy’s infertility clashing with her desire for Rory to e happy and his desire to be a father, the Doctor decides to pop in and “fix” that for them—and somehow the issues are magically gone y the end of the episode, because the Doctor’s here and so is the status quo! And I don’t even know if Clara has any interpersonal relationships at all outside of the Doctor and those two kids she babysits in one episode, but don’t even get me started on Clara, because she’s written as a roaming plot point instead of a character and it PISSES ME OFF.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

Yeah, this is why Moffat needs to go.

[Kaito Lady]

Moffat....for me he just doesn't need to be the main writer of the series, give him an episode now and then, not Every Second Episode or more, like they are doing now....

Why did Russel T. Davis leave again?

[mangaluva]

I think he was just ready to move on to other things. He'd achieved his dream of reviving Doctor Who, and I guess he figured it was going strong enough for Moffat to run it.

Moffat wrote some great individual episodes--Blink is still one of my all-time favourite episodes, aside from Moffat's tendency to mistake stalking for romance--but giving him full control was clearly a mistake.

[MoonRaven]

Ohh, great analysis, ml. I totally agree with you.

Hmm, is Gatiss in the picture at all anymore then?

[mangaluva]

Has Gatiss ever been involved with Doctor Who? I thought he was just the co-writer on Sherlock

[Iwamoto Yuri]

He writes for Doctor Who as well. That and he had a role in an episode.

[MoonRaven]

It's so freaky when you spot familiar actors in DW. I remember staring Tennant for a long time at first before I realized he'd played Barty Crouch jr. in Harry Potter. And Mark Williams as Brian Pond... well, Williams... nvm, used to be Arthut Weasley. Or the Lumic guy that was Barty Crouch sr.... etc. etc.

[mangaluva]

Hmmm. Didn't really notice because his "writing style" is increasingly indistinguishable from Moffat's. He's a collaborator at best, since he certainly doesn't do anything to combat the homophobia, biphobia, sexism and racism that are increasingly rampant is both shows. (I know he's gay. Internalized homophobia is a terrible thing.)

[MoonRaven]

hmm is that so? I always thought DW is quite accepting show. I mean... Captain Jack Harkness. Jenny and Vastra. Species are equal(well, Daleks disagree with that), and thw women do can think for themselves.

or then it's just changing to the worse... no Jack

[mangaluva]

Jack Harkness came before Moffat and hasn't appeared during his run. Jenny and Vastra are poorly written and generally used as a punchline or titillation rather than developed characters (Similar example would e the "We're the Tall Thin Short Fat Married Anglicans, why would we need names?" they're married and that's funny! And literally their entire identity! LOL!)

See my previous posts for my feelings re RTD female characters vs Moffat female "characters".

[MoonRaven]

Yeah, I saw that. While writing my previous post I realized it too. Moffat has screwed up a lot and... what bothered me during the entire Eleven's time was how the table was cleaned up. What I'm trying to say is... Nine's and Ten's characters were about the same. Sure it was partially because Rose was with both of them but even Martha appeared during 'Donna's season' not to mention the end of it Ten's run. but when Eleven stepped up, everything was swept away. And when the Pond's changed to Clara... okay it was impossible for them to appear again but after the angst from the Doctor's part was over it was almost like the couple hadn't been there at all. Okay Amy was mentioned a few times but that's it.

So one thing now that I liked in Capaldi's first ep, was the references to the old.

[Iwamoto Yuri]

I went on to look what exactly he did for Doctor who. Be ready to see it listed.

Doctor Who Episodes (written):
The Unquiet Dead
The Idiot's Lantern
Victory of the Daleks
Night Terrors
Cold War
The Crimson Horror
Robots of Sherwood (upcoming)

Doctor Who Episodes (acted):
The Lazarus Experiment (Professor Lazarus)
The Wedding of River Song (Gantok)

Doctor Who Books:
Nightshade
St Anthony's Fire
The Roundheads
Last of the Gaderene

DW Book Contributions
Doctor Who: The Shooting Scripts
The Doctor Who Storybook 2007
The Doctor Who Storybook 2009
The Doctor Who Storybook 2010
Brilliant Book of Doctor Who 2011
Brilliant Book of Doctor Who 2012

Big Finish Dramas (written):
Time Travellers: Republica
Time Travellers: Island of Lost Souls
Phantasmagoria
Invaders From Mars

Others:
An Adventure Through Time and Space (documentary, writing)