Why do people dislike Ran?

[jalex26]

Mario2000 and jalex26: Ok, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying or suggesting that I want to see him remain single and alone.

Ok, in short, I'm merely suggesting a story where someone else takes a liking to Ran, only this time Shinichi doesn't tell the guy off. However, said guy approaches Ran with his feelings and she mentions that while she's flattered, she's interested in someone else, thus the other guy is out of the picture. Thus leaving hope for Shinichi and Ran to happen. I don't think that sounds like despair or tragedy.

Frankly, a part of me still wants to see them together, but I feel it should happen after Shinichi grows out of his "it's all about me" mentality.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted it. It was not my intention. Sorry

[Antiyonder]

To be fair, I probably could stood to be more clear on the matter.

Overall though I guess the reason why some of us take Eisuke's resolution with distain is well even with Shinichi's flaws pointed out every now and then, as we can all agree on, this flaw was romanticized and it feels like one that Gosho might not see a problem with or address in the future.

In contrast, ending Eisuke's story with him getting turned down by Ran leaves no uneasiness and in fact good for plenty of reasons:
- For one, it helps to dispel the notion that Ran is merely Shinichi Not-Girlfriend and is her own person (being able to make her own decisions).
- It demonstrates Shinichi's earlier claim more than mere words can.
- Not to mention that it does show that despite his secrecy, he does trust in Ran.
- And on that note, you don't have Shinichi hypocritically outing himself to Eisuke, when he's made such an effort to hide his situation from Ran.

Not a downside in sight.

[Silverbullet96]

I thought I disliked her too because I thought if I loved Haibara and ConAi (which I do), I must hate Ran, then I knew that's not really true. That's probably the case with more than half of these "haters".

[kkslider5552000]

I thought I disliked her too because I thought if I loved Haibara and ConAi (which I do), I must hate Ran, then I knew that's not really true. That's probably the case with more than half of these "haters".

true. But also I think people feel they have to automatically hate a character because she fits too much into a trope they don't like.

I feel most of us here have more valid reasons to hate her (at least how she is nowadays) and yet we clearly don't. Not nearly as much at least.

[Antiyonder]

Ok, with nothing else to say on the Eisuke part of the topic and having several days of not debating, I'd like to further my point something else I responded to before:

Antiyonder, you mentioned Ran's lack of activity is especially problematic because she's one of the main characters.

Not because of her character status, but...

But that argument doesn't really hold up. Gosho puts aside his major characters, not just Ran, all the time at certain times. The story's focus right now is solely on Sera and Amuro. Even Okiya, formerly the main focus of the Bourbon arc, has been put aside for now. This isn't some prejudice Gosho has against Ran and so he makes her useless. The story has so many characters that he's selectively picking who to focus on for the time being.

Yeah, other main characters are are given a break appearance wise, thus it doesn't feel like they're appearing too much, while doing too little.

In fact, looking at the manga, being that it's where Gosho has more control:

Just because a character has an important role doesn't mean they should be shoved into every thing happening for the sake of it, for the sake of just doing something.

Yet that's what it feels like is being done with Ran. In fact, not counting characters of the recent year like Okiya, Amuro and Sera, Ran looks to appear more than any other major character (not counting Conan/Shinichi of course).

Going with the characters that appeared since the first five manga volumes and appeared regularly as well:
- Megure has appeared in at least 250 chapters.
- Kogoro has appeared in at least 561 chapters.
- Agasa has appeared in at least 240 chapters.
- Genta and Mitsuhiko range in between 266-269, while Ayumi has at least 270 chapters of appearances. Incidentally, this is why I'm going with the manga as some of their appearances in the anime had them shoved into manga based stories that they were absent from.

That leaves Ran (who like Megure was present since the first chapter) with 673 chapter appearances. So while she isn't necessarily being written worse than any character, I think had her appearances been reduced to at least 570-575 and had been spaced out a little more, there would be better reception towards her overall.

[The_evilbit]

I am sure this has been said many a times. I myself do not personally hate Ran as a character, though I get no satisfaction from watching her appear in episodes (At least not in later seasons). The biggest issue for me is she has been levied as a main supporting character however she is not treated like one. This was fine in the early seasons as the plot was strong, though her character really hasn’t evolved; she for lack of a better term is still the same damsel in distress waiting for the main character to return in episode 730 as she was in episode 3. This may be due to the early vision of Detective Conan being a short lived one or due to other factors, but the point is at the end of the day she currently only exists to be a love interest waiting…waiting…waiting. (Also why I do not blame people who see this type of character trait tiring and tune Ran out in favor of other supporting characters such as Shiho Miyano who have been allowed to grow and interact on a more realistic relationship level with the other characters.)

Granted most relationships in Detective Conan are out there and unrealistic, though the interaction at this point between Ran and Conan/Shinichi seems forced as if the writer has hit a block and any chance an opportunity to grow Ran’s character comes along the status quo is returned through some elaborate trick and a new character is introduced to solve the problem or arc leaving characters like Ran only appearing when needed and not developing.

[Kudo Shinchi]

@Antiyonder The thing is, the message in the fortuneteller case WAS "Be yourself and you'll be happy." Ran was trying to change herself, adjust herself, according to her fortune because she thought that she wouldn't get a chance to get together with Shinichi otherwise. The obvious message of the case was that that was wrong, that she should remain exactly the way she is- she'll be happy not changing herself. The only possible problem with that was the way Gosho conveyed that message. IMO it's painfully clear that Gosho wasn't trying to be sexist in that case, as evidenced by the triumphant tone at the end when Ran destroyed the criminal with her karate. Obviously the whole situation could be interpreted negatively, as apparently anything related to Ran can be, but that wasn't the intention. Like the Eisuke situation, the only problem exists in the possible implications.

And, this one case is far from enough to discredit the vital role Ran has played in other people's stories that has zero relation to Akemi's, like her and Haibara's bond, Vermouth, Akai, etc.

The epilogue of the MT did indeed take the whole Hiabara situation with a bit of silliness, but the acknowledgement on the author's part is still there. More so, it does not overshadow far more serious situations where Conan was extensively portrayed as being in the wrong, like the Ray Curtis case.

Does the number of chapter appearances have to do with anything, though? My statement that main characters don't have to be shoved into everything refers to being shoved in important situations, not normal, everyday cases. Ran and Kogoro appear all the time in cases that have zilch development in anything, plot or otherwise. That's fine. DC is not a conventional manga, and its story structure is not conventional at all. Heck, look at Conan. A huge chunk of his screentime is spent just solving everyday cases. That's fine. It's a detective manga, after all. And I've already pointed out plenty of examples that demonstrate that Ran is a far more active character than given credit for.

Another myth is that Ran is somehow being restrained from growing as a character and forming relationships with other people. How is that? The only way, and I mean the only way, she is being restricted in any way right now is not discovering Conan's identity, and that plotline is part of her story at the moment in both the anime and manga, in the background. Otherwise, we had a whole great arc concerning her and Haibara's relationship, her and Kazuha's initial lack of friendship, her and Vermouth's story, etc.. She's done tons with other people. Ran's character has a scope far beyond Shinichi.

@The_evilbit But how does Ran waiting for Shinichi turn her into a damsel in distress? She's perfectly capable of surviving on her own. Of course, Shinichi's disappearance is hurting her, and she misses him, and her sensitivity causes her to cry a lot, but then Shinichi is her childhood friend whome she's in love with. It makes perfect sense. She's done tons of things in his absence, and the times she suspected him of being Conan she was quite aggressive in her confrontations with him. What's wrong with any of this?

Going to say this again: there are a few issues surrounding Ran's character. Ok. But there's a lot of merit to her character as well. You don't have to LIKE her, but at least acknowledge it's there. To get a wholesome picture of a character, you have to look at everything, not selectively examine the negative and that's it.

[Antiyonder]

Does the number of chapter appearances have to do with anything, though?

Yeah, because less episodes usually guarantees that a character isn't overexposed and that their lack of action doesn't become tiring.

My statement that main characters don't have to be shoved into everything refers to being shoved in important situations, not normal, everyday cases. Ran and Kogoro appear all the time in cases that have zilch development in anything, plot or otherwise. That's fine. DC is not a conventional manga, and its story structure is not conventional at all. Heck, look at Conan. A huge chunk of his screentime is spent just solving everyday cases.

That's just it though. Even if Conan's actions don't heavily push the story further, he's still consistently doing something other than just being the in background (gathering clues and solving the case). Heck, even if Kogoro isn't the center of the story or going through development, he still contributes on the grounds of usually being one of Conan's mystery solving dummies.

Another myth is that Ran is somehow being restrained from growing as a character and forming relationships with other people. How is that? The only way, and I mean the only way, she is being restricted in any way right now is not discovering Conan's identity, and that plotline is part of her story at the moment in both the anime and manga, in the background.

Well having her find out Conan's identity would provide more material for her, but even then it's not necessarily that she needs to contribute something earth shattering to the storyline, but at least do more than being background fodder. Now for some examples in that vein:
1. Volume 1, Chapter 5 has her coming to Conan's aid and defeating the kidnapper.
2. Volume 4, Chapter 35-37 also has her at least acting as a foil and restraining Conan when he's trying to find the bomb. Similar with Volume 7-8, Chapter 68-71, where due to a fit of jealousy, she hampers his effort to solve the case. Speaking of Volume 8...
3. Chapter 74-76 has Ran recognizing (or so she thinks) the murder had is thinking about whether she should turn that person in or no.

Heck, your post at the end of page 4 demonstrate other ways that Ran can contribute even if it's not always big:

Remember when she figured out that Eri was seeing a guy and charged off on her own, almost attacking the guy for hurting her mom? Or how she attempted to crack Conan's password based on her suspicions of him, and actually solved the code. How she's faced various criminals confidently and beaten them since then. How she's still superstitious? Or when she saved that kidnapped mayor in the paper plane case? Even as recently as the Sera case in the Mouri Detective Agency, when she foiled Sera's plan to eliminate the criminal to prevent loss of life. She may not have actually changed much, but at least her personality's still consistent. Her Karate life hasn't been forgotten either; she recently won a very important tournament, which was explicitly brought up in Sera's intro case, and she used her abilities to help catch the culprit in the recent Heiji case.

Going to say this again: there are a few issues surrounding Ran's character. Ok. But there's a lot of merit to her character as well. You don't have to LIKE her, but at least acknowledge it's there. To get a wholesome picture of a character, you have to look at everything, not selectively examine the negative and that's it.

Yeah I meant to talk about this sooner, but criticism, even if it's strong doesn't always equal hating a character.

Some of us got in through the earlier stories where it feels like Ran was better handled, thus it's more of a disappointment than outright dislike.

Incidentally, I'd like to bring up another comment you made at the end of page 4 of the thread:

I think that Gosho has done a good job of making Ran's failure to discover his identity realistic for her considering the tricks Conan pulls on her.

That part is understandable. But evidently Conan's tricks don't prevent her from developing suspicion despite the more elaborate attempts to throw her off (case in point being that even seeing Conan and Shinichi side by side didn't prevent her from being suspicious again).

No, I think the unrealistic aspect (even when you consider that it's done more for status quo preservation) is that she rarely learns from her past attempts to get the truth. I mean in both the 2nd and 4th time, she didn't really hide her suspicions well enough, plus while she came into evidence that had merit, it's still the kind that was refutable. Looking at first time in Chapter 27 for example, her big mistake is laying her cards on the table at the end, rather than waiting until they are at home later. Had she hid her suspicions until that time, I imagine that Conan wouldn't have any choice but to spill since he wouldn't have Agasa's call to bail him out.

For that reason, I actually think that The Desperate Revival should have been the last suspicion arc (at least until the one that actually ends with her finding out which you suggest is a possibility). I mean, while Ran might not have had the best evidence on hand, she evidently kept her knowledge a secret for a good period of time. Heck, even if Shinichi did manage to fool her again:

A. It's probably the best trick what with both him and "Conan" appearing at the same time.
B. While she did slip up at the beginning of TDR, she still made an attempt to seem ignorant and thus showing some growth on her part due to the previous attempts failing.
C. Heck, she even tried a different approach by being patient rather than trying to force him into confessing.

Thus while it was the third time she developed suspicion, it actually did something new, while the 4th suspicion arc was pretty underwhelming.

[bluekaitou1412]

@Kudo Shinichi: By talking about Ran's flaws we are not dismissing her merits; we are merely addressing the question posed in this thread, which is "Why do people dislike Ran?"

[Kudo Shinchi]

@Kudo Shinichi: By talking about Ran's flaws we are not dismissing her merits; we are merely addressing the question posed in this thread, which is "Why do people dislike Ran?"

Sorry, I should have phrased what I was saying better. What I was getting at was that I feel that the validity of many answers given to the question "Why do people dislike Ran" depends on ignoring or distorting evidence from the manga that clearly shows otherwise. Random example (this hasn't shown up in this thread, just using it to make myself clear) would be someone saying they don't like Ran because she's weak and can't defend herself, when there are clear and numerous examples from the series that counter such a statement. I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like Ran, as long as they have legitimate reasons to back up their opinion.

I mean, tbh I'm not really a huge Ran fan myself. I like the character, but it's not like I go around dutifully defending her every where on the internet and write fanfiction and make amvs for her or anything. It's just that I always see her getting so much undeserved hate everywhere in the DC fandom that it really gets on my nerves. I'm glad that most of the discussion in this topic has been reasonable and intelligent, so this isn't really directed at the people posting here, even if I feel that a few of the claims in this topic are baseless.

@Antiyonder I don't want to feel like I'm repeating things here, but as you yourself stated by referring to my previous post, Ran has indeed been more than just background fodder. She's repeatedly been involved in cases in subtle yet significant ways, even in the past few years, and especially since after Sera's appearance. It might not be satisfying to everyone, but to me it's enough to know that Ran is still actively involved in various situations and has still had some significant character moments. Sometimes she even has a direct impact on how a particular situation unfolds. The hostage case in the Mouri Detective Agency (Sera's second case) is a great example here. Ran saw what Sera was trying to do (get the guy holding them hostage shot by the snipers outside) and she took direct action and prevented the guy's death by closing the curtains, thus foiling Sera's plan...and in the end both she and Sera took down the guy right before the police barged in.

There are nice subtle touches here and there as well, like how Ran attempted to talk to Shinichi in the case at the restaurant with the FBI (ep 651) before Conan supposedly ended his "phone call" with Shinichi. And as I mentioned before, I especially liked how she and Kazuha were actually involved in Conan and Heiji's plan in the Vampire case, so they actually contributed to the conclusion. The examples go on. What I'm saying is, I don't personally feel Ran is overexposed at the moment. If you do, more power to you. We can agree to disagree.

I actually think I agree with you about Desperate Revival. It is hands-down the best suspicion arc in the whole series, and the one that came after it didn't compare to it. Sonoci mentioned it before, along time ago in another thread, but DR probably happened too early in the series. It felt huge- and indeed it WAS huge. Conan getting shot, Ran knowing about his identity and keeping silent so that he can confess himseld, Haibara supposedly pointing a gun at him, Conan pulling his most elaborate trick yet to fool Ran, and then trying to propose to her...in a series with a status quo as stable as DC, it was hard to believe that the stuff happening in that arc was actually happening. I love that whole mini-arc to death, but Gosho's going to have a hard time topping it. And yes, Ran's approach in this situation was probably the best of all the times she's suspected Conan.

I do have to say though, that the whole small suspicion arc where Ran tried to break into Conan's phone was created for a very specific, plot-related reason: to give Conan two phones, which became extremely important to the events that unfolded in the Kir arc and especially Clash of Red and Black. If Checkhov is correct about her theory regarding how Akai could have faked his death, the two cellphones were a critical part of the trick. Gosho probably thought that having Conan acquire two phones due to Ran's suspicions of him would be reasonable , and so he wrote that arc. Aside from that, if I remember correctly it was during that arc that Ran got Shinichi's cellphone number for the first time, so that was a nice development. Gosho was kind of hitting two birds with one stone. As a final note as well, I did enjoy that suspicion arc because we got to see Ran figure out the code on her own, and her expression while trying to crack the code were hilarious, so I didn't mind it too much.

I'm going to be optimistic and hope Gosho outdoes himself with the final suspicion arc. We can only wait and hope for the best.

[Antiyonder]

Agree to disagree it is then.

That said, good point on the cellphone arc.

Edit: There is one thing I felt that needs to be asked again, especially in response to this:

I'm going to be optimistic and hope Gosho outdoes himself with the final suspicion arc. We can only wait and hope for the best.

Well one problem I see is one of the examples you've mentioned as far as Ran gathering clues:

I noticed that pretty much all the previous Ran suspicion arcs came suddenly, as in they built up over a single case and were resolved within that same case or the one right after. The only exception would be the one in Desperate Revival, which was simply a result of Ran not losing her suspicions the previous time in the first place. This one, though, has been building up since Ran first mentioned to Kazuha her question about Shinichi’s fingerprints on Heiji’s omamori. From then, Gosho dropped more hints as well. For example, Ran’s casual reference to DNA testing being used to reveal a person in disguise when she was talking with Conan in Ch. 794 is one. The most obvious foreshadowing came in Ch. 814 when Conan messed up and referred to Yuusaku as his dad in front of Ran. She grabbed him and looked into his face to reassure herself he was Conan, saying, “Conan-kun, right?” The chapter’s name is even derived from this exchange. The point is, no other Ran suspicion arc has ever received this much build-up.

See, the problem as I've stated with previous suspicion arcs is that while Ran has good reasons to develop her suspicion again, her problem is that the evidence she submits can be countered with some reason or another.

In this case, Kazuha already pointed out that Shinichi could have met Heiji sometime before the Shiragami case, thus explaining the fingerprints.

[Mario2000]

I have finally read this thread from beginning to the end, not just the last pages and would like to disagree with this:

Second of all, I find it annoying how she gets in the way of Kogoro flirting with women. I do acknowledge the fact that she wants him to go back to Eri, but he's a grown up and can do whatever he wants. If he wants to flirt with other women, it's his business, she may not like it, but she can't threaten him with karate and whatnot. It's just wrong.

I personally don't find it annoying at all: apart from the fact that I think it was supposed to provide comic relief, Kogoro should know that flirting with multiple women is an activity that involves some risk
I personally wouldn't do what Ran does if I were in her situation though: I would simply cut off any ties and communication with the womanizing individual. Of course he would have the right to do what he wants, but I also would have the right to make it clear that I disrespect such a decision as much as it can be disrespected.

I hope Eri and Kogoro will get back together anyway, I would like to see them as a happy family, maybe with their tsundere moments, but not as many of them of course.

[Silverbullet96]

To be quite honest, all these people saying her character is being downplayed, I think I could disagree, for me she still looks the exact same from the very beginning, her being 'extremely' violent and hot tempered, saying things like she 'trolls' Shinichi is just another exaggeration of a handful of moments by Ran fans to argue that she's actually interesting, of course she broke a pole and a table out of 'anger' a couple times in the beginning, and made a light prank on him at the amusement park, but if you think that makes her a hothead or troll then it's a pretty darn weak argument for many reasons. I think she just isn't a part of good storylines anymore, and I don't think she can be given the fact that she is just another high school girl living a normal life, except the Suspicion episodes. I never thought Ran's character was that interesting, for me she is just one of those EXTREMELY nice girls, with the niceness & bashfulness toned down a notch, maybe braver, and maybe more perfect.

[n.hoangphu15]

To be quite honest, all these people saying her character is being downplayed, I think I could disagree, for me she still looks the exact same from the very beginning, her being 'extremely' violent and hot tempered, saying things like she 'trolls' Shinichi is just another exaggeration of a handful of moments by Ran fans to argue that she's actually interesting, of course she broke a pole and a table out of 'anger' a couple times in the beginning, and made a light prank on him at the amusement park, but if you think that makes her a hothead or troll then it's a pretty darn weak argument for many reasons. I think she just isn't a part of good storylines anymore, and I don't think she can be given the fact that she is just another high school girl living a normal life, except the Suspicion episodes. I never thought Ran's character was that interesting, for me she is just one of those EXTREMELY nice girls, with the niceness & bashfulness toned down a notch, maybe braver, and maybe more perfect.

Don't really get your idea. Of course Ran can't be an interesting character like others, because like you said, she's just a high school girl, so what do you expect from her? Solve crimes? Create antidotes? She's not a detective or scientist or police, so don't put too much attention to her if you find her not interesting. For me, i still enjoy her scenes.

[k11chi]

Lol Eisuke... I think it would be better if her character arc got a little bit of development once we get to hear more about the Sera family instead, Gosho could do wonders if he bothered to do something with that.

Like... During the apple case Sera pushed Ran away and said something like "Stay away this is our territory right now", while Ran was left dumbfounded. Likewise, Sera was surprised from Rans determination during the bombing case and also I'm sure Ran is better at karate than Sera at jeet kune do if they went against each others in the ring.