Why do people dislike Ran?

[Antiyonder]

Ran isn't a very active character right now, but the same can be said for a lot of other people. In fact, the only active characters right now are Conan, Okiya, Sera, and Bourbon. Actually, scratch Okiya, he hasn't appeared in the manga for over a year. This is just the way Gosho does things; he rightfully avoids focusing on too many people at once so he can tell his story properly. Character get shafted for certain periods of time, but Gosho never forgets about them. More so, Ran has been playing a very impotant yet subtle role as of late, and that is that she's slowly gathering clues about Conan and subconsciously suspecting him. It's not blatantly obvious, but it's a plotline that's been running throughout the whole Bourbon arc (so that's around seven years now), playing out in the background, and easily noticeable if you pay attention. Ran'll get her next moment to shine soon enough. Point is, it's normal for Gosho to turn the focus away from characters for long periods of time, sometimes years. Doesn't say anything about his writing of said characters.

The problem with the argument (especially the underlined bit) is that other people don't appear as frequently as Ran, thus the expectations for them to do more is less. To look at Kogoro, he at least is serving some purpose as a mystery solving dummy. Heck, Ran doesn't even get in the way of Conan that much when he's trying to solve a case nowadays.

And again that's what a big part of the problem is. If the story was much shorter, a character like Ran would work. But for a show this long to have her as prominent when not really contributing much to the story than token love interest, something has to give if the story is to continue for an unpredictable amount of time.

@Antiyonder I don't agree with your suggestion that love and selfishness are mutually exclusive. It's normal for someone to be possessive about someone he/she loves. It's sounds nice and honorable to say that if you love a person very much you should be happy for them no matter who they're with, but in reality it's exceedingly difficult.

As I've conceded, I do admit it's okay to be selfish to a degree (Indulging ones self here and there). But if it outweighs the acts of selflessness overall (basically dismissing your partner's happiness altogether), I think whether it counts as love or not is up for debate. Case in point...

Before I get any further, I'll just say that doesn't undo what a huge character moment it was for Shinichi, the guy with the inflated ego, to say that, and say it so earnestly. He really meant what he said at that time, even if he hasn't done the best job holding true to it. But anyways, Shinichi obviously still feels jealousy to anyone who tries to get close to Ran, which is only natural, and it was played for laughs quite extensively during the Kir arc with Eisuke. In London he went ahead and confessed his feelings to her, even though he previously stated he wouldn't. Now, it'd be easy to dismiss this as bad writing or character regression...except that Haibara reminded him of his words after the London case! This is significant because it shows that Gosho, the writer, hasn't forgotten Shinichi's words from hundreds and hundreds of chapters ago and is aware of Conan's contradictory actions. Isn't that interesting? Doesn't that open the possibility that there will come a time when Conan will ultimately called out on his actions?

It sounds nice and honorable to say that he wants her to be happy even if he isn't part of the picture, but unless he can ultimately back it up, then it's just beautiful words. Sure he might have meant it, but good intentions in the long run are worthless unless the actions taken synch up.

But as far as the Eisuke bit goes, I guess the problem stems from the fact that the scene didn't have any vibes of a "What the Hell, Hero?" to it. Not to mention, many including myself didn't even see it problematic at the time, thus giving some credibility that Gosho doesn't see Shinichi as being in the wrong at that moment. And it's not like writers don't from time to time have a character making an error without repercussion or intending for the character to mature from it.

Heck, looking at the confession in London. Remember that just before the confession, Ran felt a lot of heartbreak in regards to Shinichi, yet she seems to have forgotten all about how hurt she was by his dishonesty.

That said, I guess what would help is to see him acting in an opposite manner should someone pursue Ran in a future story.

"To truly love someone you have to be willing to let them go..."

It depends though (I'm assuming that you're talking about Shinichi and Ran) If you know that that someone loves you back theres no reason to let go and let other person take that someone, unless of course if doing that will put him/her out of danger. In Shinichi's case he is actually willing to let her go but he knows that there's still a reason to fight for it because once he return back to his old body and destroy the B.O. they can finally be together in peace. That's just my opinion so don't take it that seriously

Then something has to give. Something meaning that he comes clean with her about being Conan so that she can better make the choice if she wants to wait for him. Heck, lets say that a cure doesn't come up or his usage of the pills make him immune to any further antidotes. Thus waiting might entail him to reach the age of 20 in well 13/14 years.

Either he needs to come clean about being Conan so that she knows the stakes, or just step back and let her find happiness without him.

[jalex26]

"To truly love someone you have to be willing to let them go..."

It depends though (I'm assuming that you're talking about Shinichi and Ran) If you know that that someone loves you back theres no reason to let go and let other person take that someone, unless of course if doing that will put him/her out of danger. In Shinichi's case he is actually willing to let her go but he knows that there's still a reason to fight for it because once he return back to his old body and destroy the B.O. they can finally be together in peace. That's just my opinion so don't take it that seriously

Then something has to give. Something meaning that he comes clean with her about being Conan so that she can better make the choice if she wants to wait for him. Heck, lets say that a cure doesn't come up or his usage of the pills make him immune to any further antidotes. Thus waiting might entail him to reach the age of 20 in well 13/14 years.

Either he needs to come clean about being Conan so that she knows the stakes, or just step back and let her find happiness without him.

That's definitely the right course of action but I doubt that the author will let that happen anytime soon. I think he's saving that for a dramatic ending.

[Antiyonder]

^^^But see that's why I'm not too sure that Gosho is aware of just how problematic Shinichi's dishonesty is. For the confession to happen at the end of the manga means having Ran just forgive him for the heartbreak and deceit in an instant rather than say letting her find out sooner so that any forgiveness she has for him is built up better.

And not that doesn't mean having her find out and then time skipping to two days later where she's over it.

A good story doesn't just have a lot of tension, but resolving it in a convincing matter, afterall. Creating a lot of tension only to give a quick, easy resolution is a cheat.

[Jd-]

Let's keep in mind that very little actual time has passed in the Conan universe (a matter of "a few months" as of Clash of Red and Black). We're not even talking one calendar year here, so calling for everyone to equip their best guns and take their shots isn't really something that has to be on the cards yet.

[Antiyonder]

^^^True, but even when you keep in mind that the years of volumes isn't equal to the time passing in the manga, the number of events do give the feeling that a lot of time has passed.

[Kudo Shinchi]

I'v said this before, and I'll say it again: the issues surrounding Shinichi and Ran's relationship, and Ran's character, have been blown way out of proportion.

I do agree that this thread has basically turned into looking at the worst of the situation with a semi-cynical outlook, but it is mostly the truth of how it is as far as I'm concerned. I noticed these issues around 3 years before I wrote this, so Gosho or one of the editors had no interest or did not realize these issues within that time so I think this is all fair game. For the record, after an even larger annoyance at that time the plot was intentionally ignored basically entirely for a year and a half, most of my other issues with recent Conan were addressed post-Sera intro in one way or another I feel, so to me that makes this the big problem I have. And it is such a simple thing to at least address that is not addressed anymore. It can be, it might someday, we don't know. But it has taken too long for any sane human being to tolerate or wait for a payoff in any way for this frustrating character writing so until then, the problem is exactly what I stated and how I stated it.

My problem isn't really the stuff you stated in your opening post. I agree with most of it (except the part about Ran only existing to be Shinichi's love interest, which was thoroughly debunked by the happenings of the Vermouth arc). My problem is what the thread's become. As you said, everyone's basically taken the most cynical view of the situation possible, ignoring any evidence from the manga that doesn't fit this negative perspective, and then magnifying the issue tenfold.

For example, why are we debating whether Shinichi loves Ran or not now? He had a few moments of selfishness with her and could have handled a few situations differently. Ok. He also ran across a burning bridge to save her in episode 132, absolutely panics whenever possible danger befalls her, and has put himself on the line multiple times to save her, and has made genuine attempts to distance himself for her so that he doesn't hurt her. His reasoning for keeping her in the dark is flawed, but it's borne from genuinely good intentions. It's fine to be annoyed with Ran or dislike her relationship with Shinichi, but let's not get carried away now.

Virtually all the problems mentioned in this thread come from Ran post-Kir arc, basically in the Bourbon arc. Yes, Gosho has messed up a few times now with her specifically in this arc. It's unfortunate, but it's not like she's turned into a terribly written female character because of a few moments. Why can't we be optimistic that some of these issues could be addressed, or that Ran will get her moment to shine once again, soon?

Antiyonder, you mentioned Ran's lack of activity is especially problematic because she's one of the main characters. But that argument doesn't really hold up. Gosho puts aside his major characters, not just Ran, all the time at certain times. The story's focus right now is solely on Sera and Amuro. Even Okiya, formerly the main focus of the Bourbon arc, has been put aside for now. This isn't some prejudice Gosho has against Ran and so he makes her useless. The story has so many characters that he's selectively picking who to focus on for the time being.

I'd do farther to say that Ran's lack of activity recently is mostly a myth as well. A lot of people are making it sound like Ran's vanished off the face of the Earth. What? She played a major role in the Shinigami case, she played a major role in the London case, she's clearly been suspecting Conan for a while and is subtly gathering clues on him in the background, and even had a great character moment in her second case with Sera, in the hostage situation. Gosho still emphasizes her ability to fight for herself all the time as well, and she's been making an effort to return Shinichi's confession. The most recent anime episodes have hinted that her involvement with Sera, and thus the Bourbon arc, is deeper than it first appears.

Gosho is taking his time. The way things have been set up, Ran is going to have a pretty big part to play in the climax of the Bourbon arc, or maybe a little later. Gosho has always written slowly, and so many characters stay inactive for long periods of time..in real-time. In the DC universe, only a few months have passed. We've seen Ran waiting for Shinichi for 20 years now, but in the story it's only been a few months. Considering that, the couple has made decent progress in their relationship (and Sato and Takagi absolutely skyrocketed ) Look at Haibara. After the Vermouth arc she kind of became a background character, another DB member. Why? Because she had little relevance to the events of the Kir arc. The only way she was connected to it was through the Org's general involvement and specifically Akai. Gosho chose this arc to reveal Akai's connection to Akemi and Haibara at long last, and by doing that set up the Okiya-Haibara dynamic for the Bourbon arc, which as come into play now, with Haibara taking a more active role in investigating Okiya's true identity and in the Mystery Train case, which brought a lot of the mystery surrounding her family and its involvement in the APTX4869 project to the front.

Haibara wasn't forgotten about. She was "put on hold" for several years, but her time eventually came on. Just because a character has an important role doesn't mean they should be shoved into every thing happening for the sake of it, for the sake of just doing something. DC is not written as most stories are; it can't afford to have that kind of structure. Ad what exactly do people want Ran to do? Discover Conan's identity? That'll happen eventually, maybe sooner than we think. For now, Gosho has integrated her into the Bourbon arc's plot pretty firmly, albeit more subtly than with the Vermouth arc.

And at the end of the day, Conan's a rash teenage kid who has handled his situation with more maturity then we give him credit for. He slipped up a few times, okay. But we don't need to demonize him. He hasn't committed some major sins that he needs to repent too. I fully expect him to be called out on his handling of Ran while he was a child, because as I've mentioned before: Conan has been called out on his occasional idiocy several times in the manga before. Gosho has not, nor has he ever have, presented Conan as some perfect human being capable of no wrong, not even in terms of deduction skills, let alone personality. The Eisuke scene was a bit romanticized, yes, when it shouldn't have been. But that alone is not sufficient proof to say that Conan has become portrayed as an honorable warrior who should be praised for all his actions. Recent events in the manga especially, which I won't mention due to spoilers, present the completely opposite image, tbh.

[shinranlover]

I'v said this before, and I'll say it again: the issues surrounding Shinichi and Ran's relationship, and Ran's character, have been blown way out of proportion.

I do agree that this thread has basically turned into looking at the worst of the situation with a semi-cynical outlook, but it is mostly the truth of how it is as far as I'm concerned. I noticed these issues around 3 years before I wrote this, so Gosho or one of the editors had no interest or did not realize these issues within that time so I think this is all fair game. For the record, after an even larger annoyance at that time the plot was intentionally ignored basically entirely for a year and a half, most of my other issues with recent Conan were addressed post-Sera intro in one way or another I feel, so to me that makes this the big problem I have. And it is such a simple thing to at least address that is not addressed anymore. It can be, it might someday, we don't know. But it has taken too long for any sane human being to tolerate or wait for a payoff in any way for this frustrating character writing so until then, the problem is exactly what I stated and how I stated it.

My problem isn't really the stuff you stated in your opening post. I agree with most of it (except the part about Ran only existing to be Shinichi's love interest, which was thoroughly debunked by the happenings of the Vermouth arc). My problem is what the thread's become. As you said, everyone's basically taken the most cynical view of the situation possible, ignoring any evidence from the manga that doesn't fit this negative perspective, and then magnifying the issue tenfold.

For example, why are we debating whether Shinichi loves Ran or not now? He had a few moments of selfishness with her and could have handled a few situations differently. Ok. He also ran across a burning bridge to save her in episode 132, absolutely panics whenever possible danger befalls her, and has put himself on the line multiple times to save her, and has made genuine attempts to distance himself for her so that he doesn't hurt her. His reasoning for keeping her in the dark is flawed, but it's borne from genuinely good intentions. It's fine to be annoyed with Ran or dislike her relationship with Shinichi, but let's not get carried away now.

Virtually all the problems mentioned in this thread come from Ran post-Kir arc, basically in the Bourbon arc. Yes, Gosho has messed up a few times now with her specifically in this arc. It's unfortunate, but it's not like she's turned into a terribly written female character because of a few moments. Why can't we be optimistic that some of these issues could be addressed, or that Ran will get her moment to shine once again, soon?

Antiyonder, you mentioned Ran's lack of activity is especially problematic because she's one of the main characters. But that argument doesn't really hold up. Gosho puts aside his major characters, not just Ran, all the time at certain times. The story's focus right now is solely on Sera and Amuro. Even Okiya, formerly the main focus of the Bourbon arc, has been put aside for now. This isn't some prejudice Gosho has against Ran and so he makes her useless. The story has so many characters that he's selectively picking who to focus on for the time being.

I'd do farther to say that Ran's lack of activity recently is mostly a myth as well. A lot of people are making it sound like Ran's vanished off the face of the Earth. What? She played a major role in the Shinigami case, she played a major role in the London case, she's clearly been suspecting Conan for a while and is subtly gathering clues on him in the background, and even had a great character moment in her second case with Sera, in the hostage situation. Gosho still emphasizes her ability to fight for herself all the time as well, and she's been making an effort to return Shinichi's confession. The most recent anime episodes have hinted that her involvement with Sera, and thus the Bourbon arc, is deeper than it first appears.

Gosho is taking his time. The way things have been set up, Ran is going to have a pretty big part to play in the climax of the Bourbon arc, or maybe a little later. Gosho has always written slowly, and so many characters stay inactive for long periods of time..in real-time. In the DC universe, only a few months have passed. We've seen Ran waiting for Shinichi for 20 years now, but in the story it's only been a few months. Considering that, the couple has made decent progress in their relationship (and Sato and Takagi absolutely skyrocketed ) Look at Haibara. After the Vermouth arc she kind of became a background character, another DB member. Why? Because she had little relevance to the events of the Kir arc. The only way she was connected to it was through the Org's general involvement and specifically Akai. Gosho chose this arc to reveal Akai's connection to Akemi and Haibara at long last, and by doing that set up the Okiya-Haibara dynamic for the Bourbon arc, which as come into play now, with Haibara taking a more active role in investigating Okiya's true identity and in the Mystery Train case, which brought a lot of the mystery surrounding her family and its involvement in the APTX4869 project to the front.

Haibara wasn't forgotten about. She was "put on hold" for several years, but her time eventually came on. Just because a character has an important role doesn't mean they should be shoved into every thing happening for the sake of it, for the sake of just doing something. DC is not written as most stories are; it can't afford to have that kind of structure. Ad what exactly do people want Ran to do? Discover Conan's identity? That'll happen eventually, maybe sooner than we think. For now, Gosho has integrated her into the Bourbon arc's plot pretty firmly, albeit more subtly than with the Vermouth arc.

And at the end of the day, Conan's a rash teenage kid who has handled his situation with more maturity then we give him credit for. He slipped up a few times, okay. But we don't need to demonize him. He hasn't committed some major sins that he needs to repent too. I fully expect him to be called out on his handling of Ran while he was a child, because as I've mentioned before: Conan has been called out on his occasional idiocy several times in the manga before. Gosho has not, nor has he ever have, presented Conan as some perfect human being capable of no wrong, not even in terms of deduction skills, let alone personality. The Eisuke scene was a bit romanticized, yes, when it shouldn't have been. But that alone is not sufficient proof to say that Conan has become portrayed as an honorable warrior who should be praised for all his actions. Recent events in the manga especially, which I won't mention due to spoilers, present the completely opposite image, tbh.

100% agree with you!!

[Antiyonder]

My problem isn't really the stuff you stated in your opening post. I agree with most of it (except the part about Ran only existing to be Shinichi's love interest, which was thoroughly debunked by the happenings of the Vermouth arc).

I don't know. I mean as an earlier post brought up in regards to the masked fortune teller case:

The implication that girls should try to change according to their men's wishes bothered me a lot in that case. It wasn't resolved with, "Girls, it's okay to be yourselves!" it was resolved with, "Ran doesn't need to change, because she's already perfect for Shinichi!"

In fairness, it's probably an unfortunately implication, but I don't see why the message wasn't "Be yourself and you will be happy".

For example, why are we debating whether Shinichi loves Ran or not now? He had a few moments of selfishness with her and could have handled a few situations differently. Ok. He also ran across a burning bridge to save her in episode 132, absolutely panics whenever possible danger befalls her, and has put himself on the line multiple times to save her, and has made genuine attempts to distance himself for her so that he doesn't hurt her. His reasoning for keeping her in the dark is flawed, but it's borne from genuinely good intentions. It's fine to be annoyed with Ran or dislike her relationship with Shinichi, but let's not get carried away now.

Protecting her from death is admirable, but a little more on the willingness to put his heart on the line would sell it better. I mean afterall, it seems like when risking ones safety, the hero doesn't think twice. But the real challenge is willing to live with a broken heart to make your loved one happy.

she's clearly been suspecting Conan for a while and is subtly gathering clues on him in the background, and even had a great character moment in her second case with Sera, in the hostage situation.

Actually one thing I'm curious about is whether the fingerprints on Heiji's charm is really something that would work as a clue. I mean even Kazuha pointed out that Shinichi and Heiji might have met up with each other prior to the Shiragami case.

Conan has been called out on his occasional idiocy several times in the manga before.

Maybe, but as Shiromi pointed out you have cases like the end of the Bell Tree arc where Haibara does chew him out, but it's played more for humor, which arguably undermines the validity of the criticism.

[Mario2000]

But the real challenge is willing to live with a broken heart to make your loved one happy.

But the situation doesn't necessarily have to get that tragic. Shinichi may simply be sure (with good reasons) that Ran will be happy with him. Even if (as unlikely as it seems to me) she got together with somebody else, it most likely would be just a gesture of despair, to try to forget about the pain of waiting for Shinichi, not that she loves the other guy. If she was a person with a different mentality and for some reason accepted Eisuke's proposal, that could be just something she might have regretted later.

[Antiyonder]

^^^Except I'm not proposing a tragedy here. To recap, some of us posting has stated how we felt Eisuke's last scene should play out which in short is Shinichi telling Eisuke that he'd rather that he doesn't pursue Ran, but nonetheless, it's her decision if she wants to accept his feelings, accompanied by Ran gently turning him down.

Basically my suggestion is for something along those lines to happen. Besides, putting aside whether he's more selfless or selfish, a good healthy relationship requires trust. And trusting letting Ran make her own decisions dating wise, not only shows that he does value her happiness more, but that he actually trusts her. I mean can anyone honestly say that a relationship can be healthy if one can't trust their partner?

[jalex26]

But the real challenge is willing to live with a broken heart to make your loved one happy.

But the situation doesn't necessarily have to get that tragic. Shinichi may simply be sure (with good reasons) that Ran will be happy with him. Even if (as unlikely as it seems to me) she got together with somebody else, it most likely would be just a gesture of despair, to try to forget about the pain of waiting for Shinichi, not that she loves the other guy. If she was a person with a different mentality and for some reason accepted Eisuke's proposal, that could be just something she might have regretted later.

To the O.P. , sorry for being off-topic again lol. But anyway, Ok let's just pretend that Ran chooses Eisuke because she loves him. Shinichi doesn't have to live in despair like Antiyonder said, actually imo nobody should be willing to live the rest of their life in despair and more importantly,who are we to decide how he should live the rest of his life just so he could prove his love? To be honest letting go is more about loving yourself more than loving the girl. Let's face it, if the girl you love chooses another guy there's nothing you can do about it. If you try forcing yourself to her, the only thing you're damaging is yourself. The real challenge is realizing that there are only two options. It's either you move on by loving yourself to have a better and happy life OR you don't move on and live the rest of your life in despair.

[Mario2000]

To the O.P. , sorry for being off-topic again lol. But anyway, Ok let's just pretend that Ran chooses Eisuke because she loves him. Shinichi doesn't have to live in despair like Antiyonder said, actually imo nobody should be willing to live the rest of their life in despair and more importantly,who are we to decide how he should live the rest of his life just so he could prove his love? To be honest letting go is more about loving yourself more than loving the girl. Let's face it, if the girl you love chooses another guy there's nothing you can do about it. If you try forcing yourself to her, the only thing you're damaging is yourself. The real challenge is realizing that there are only two options. It's either you move on by loving yourself to have a better and happy life OR you don't move on and live the rest of your life in despair.

I understand, but in real life too many people move on from their first loves, so IMO it's good when at least in fiction it's different. Maybe Shinichi should have better said what Antiyonder suggested, but to be honest, if there are options to choose, I always root for the main character staying with the first love anyway, (unless it's a complete scumbag, and even then I hope for the evil character to change and stay anyway). For example, I like Ran more than Ai as a character but, if Ai was Shinichi's first love, I would have rooted for her to be with Shinichi, even though I would have still liked Ran's character.

[jalex26]

To the O.P. , sorry for being off-topic again lol. But anyway, Ok let's just pretend that Ran chooses Eisuke because she loves him. Shinichi doesn't have to live in despair like Antiyonder said, actually imo nobody should be willing to live the rest of their life in despair and more importantly,who are we to decide how he should live the rest of his life just so he could prove his love? To be honest letting go is more about loving yourself more than loving the girl. Let's face it, if the girl you love chooses another guy there's nothing you can do about it. If you try forcing yourself to her, the only thing you're damaging is yourself. The real challenge is realizing that there are only two options. It's either you move on by loving yourself to have a better and happy life OR you don't move on and live the rest of your life in despair.

I understand, but in real life too many people move on from their first loves, so IMO it's good when at least in fiction it's different. Maybe Shinichi should have better said what Antiyonder suggested, but to be honest, if there are options to choose, I always root for the main character staying with the first love anyway, (unless it's a complete scumbag, and even then I hope for the evil character to change and stay anyway). For example, I like Ran more than Ai as a character but, if Ai was Shinichi's first love, I would have rooted for her to be with Shinichi, even though I would have still liked Ran's character.

I agree. I'm also rooting for Ran and Shinichi. I was just using that as an example because some people are too caught up with "if you love someone you should let go to make her happy" argument because the fact is that you have no other choice but to let go.

[Antiyonder]

Mario2000 and jalex26: Ok, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying or suggesting that I want to see him remain single and alone.

Ok, in short, I'm merely suggesting a story where someone else takes a liking to Ran, only this time Shinichi doesn't tell the guy off. However, said guy approaches Ran with his feelings and she mentions that while she's flattered, she's interested in someone else, thus the other guy is out of the picture. Thus leaving hope for Shinichi and Ran to happen. I don't think that sounds like despair or tragedy.

Frankly, a part of me still wants to see them together, but I feel it should happen after Shinichi grows out of his "it's all about me" mentality.

[Mario2000]

Mario2000 and jalex26: Ok, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm not saying or suggesting that I want to see him remain single and alone.

Ok, in short, I'm merely suggesting a story where someone else takes a liking to Ran, only this time Shinichi doesn't tell the guy off. However, said guy approaches Ran with his feelings and she mentions that while she's flattered, she's interested in someone else, thus the other guy is out of the picture. Thus leaving hope for Shinichi and Ran to happen. I don't think that sounds like despair or tragedy.

Frankly, a part of me still wants to see them together, but I feel it should happen after Shinichi grows out of his "it's all about me" mentality.

With this I agree, sorry if I expressed myself badly.