Why do people dislike Ran?

[k11chi]

tbh, I think Gosho should've every few months put out a chapter that has little to nothing to do with cases. Even if it's not specifically character development, give the characters a chance to just be characters without needing to focus on a case. Even write something borderline slice-of-life like, something easier to write (not that I'm saying slice of life is suddenly super easy to write well, but it's probably easier than Gosho's current job). Gives him more time to think about the next case even. Like, it isn't like the series is in danger of being cancelled or anything.

Also, I don't see how Ran being suspicious would be a problem. She could literally know for a case and then next case she could just say "ok, I should do my best to act like I don't know". Bam! You now have to do nothing until the cases where you want to focus on that and that can be similar to any other "Ran knows" cases. It's not an issue really.

Well your right it's super hard to write decent slice of life, makes me remember the beginning and ending of Katekyo (s)Hitman Reborn, what a goddamn waste of time that got nowhere, the art got pretty good and clear at times but other than that.. 400+ chapters of waiting for a horrible ending is just no. Sopranos is where it's at
Even Clannad was just average until Afterstory

[kkslider5552000]

You know, I really like Rurouni Kenshin, the manga at least. Kaoru, the female lead from that series, has come to mind. Not sure I can pull off even close to the same level of analysis on that character (particularly since that's more of a series that is all about plot, and I remember less scenes despite reading it again fairly recently) but she's also someone whose come to mind considering her descent from kicking ass to being the girl for our protagonist to be with. However, at least when that happens, Kaoru isn't in awkward waiting mode, she follows Kenshin to Kyoto after a bit.

[ssjup81]

Of course Gosho is sexist. But I'll say he's sexist to every single character in his series. Shinichi cannot have weaknesses. Ayumi and Ai does the cooking while the rest of the DB play games. Guys do the fighting and protecting even if they're crippled or only 8 years old. Girls are sweet and friendly or shy and tsundere just pretending they're not sweet and friendly on the inside. Guys are bad at "girly thing" like cooking and expressing emotions. Girls are all beautiful etc etc...

In all honesty, that's not too far from reality as far as Japan is concerned. Not really sexist per-say...it's just Japan... Gender roles are strongly defined here. This is the country where it's ok for potential employers to ask about a woman's relationship status during an interview and a place where some women lie about said status to not get overlooked or passed over for a job. Not sure if this is still as prominent though.

[ssjup81]

Gosh... I'll read all of this later, but now I'm going to make a comment as to why I don't like Ran.

First of all, her fear of things that don't exist (vampires, monsters, etc.) is beyond ridiculous and downright annoying. She's not a little kid anymore, plus she trains martial arts, why the heck would she be scared of some imaginary monster?

Second of all, I find it annoying how she gets in the way of Kogoro flirting with women. I do acknowledge the fact that she wants him to go back to Eri, but he's a grown up and can do whatever he wants. If he wants to flirt with other women, it's his business, she may not like it, but she can't threaten him with karate and whatnot. It's just wrong.

Finally, she's just plain dumb. She believes in so many superstitions like palm reading, fortune telling, etc. (Actually, Kazuha is worse in this subject, but that's for another topic). Not to mention that she does absolutely nothing to figure out where Shinichi is and gives up after Conan shows her circumstantial evidence.

To be honest, Japanese kids tend to be scary in general. I have high school students who are Ran-like when it comes to the stuff mentioned and its not really considered babyish. Those who are superstitious are also pretty common here. Maybe by western standards this is an annoyance, but normal to some extent for easterners. The way these high schoolers and even some of the adults reacts to such things, like American Halloween is amazing. Too scary for them. Can't help but wonder if that's the reason why a lot of the junk here is marketed to be "cute", and that includes Halloween.

As for Kogoro, I was under the impression that they were still legally married. Doesn't Eri still go by the name Mouri, or is it just my imagination? That aside, Japanese kids are, imo, completely rude to their parents by western standards...

[usotsuki]

Nah, she signs her name Eri Kisaki.

[k11chi]

They're still married but live apart if I remember right.

[usotsuki]

You remember right.

[Kudo Shinchi]

@Conan324 Quite the opposite for me actually. I definitely have a greater appreciation for the series now than I ever did when I was younger.

[Adel34]

To be honest, Japanese kids tend to be scary in general. I have high school students who are Ran-like when it comes to the stuff mentioned and its not really considered babyish. Those who are superstitious are also pretty common here. Maybe by western standards this is an annoyance, but normal to some extent for easterners. The way these high schoolers and even some of the adults reacts to such things, like American Halloween is amazing. Too scary for them. Can't help but wonder if that's the reason why a lot of the junk here is marketed to be "cute", and that includes Halloween.

As for Kogoro, I was under the impression that they were still legally married. Doesn't Eri still go by the name Mouri, or is it just my imagination? That aside, Japanese kids are, imo, completely rude to their parents by western standards...

Being scared of monsters on TV / pictures is not the same as actually believing in them. Don't tell me that the Japanese commonly believe in vampires...

They are married, but Eri is using her maiden name. Rude? Well, Ran isn't really portrayed as being rude to Kogoro (aside from that flirting thing).

[sonoci]

Ahhhh, finally have some time again. Though unfortunately I probably won't be able to address anything and everything, I'll stick with certain quotes and general topics that caught my attention

But first off: welcome to Shiromi!!! It's good to see another fan join in on the discussion uwu

Anyhoo, here are the topics I'm going to cover. If I've quoted you, I'll mention it before the spoiler box (because I understand that some might not want to read the entire wall of text I'm about to produce, and they would rather focus on my replies directly to them)

(quoted in the topic below: Wakarimashita and Citan)

Spoiler: How the manga operates

That's just not possible given how the manga operates though...

I've seen this argument a lot and it - at least in my case - doesn't actually really apply to anything at all. I am aware that what I would like to see is not at all what I'm going to see. I am aware that this manga is not going to suddenly change its ways, and I'm not going to rage that they aren't. I am not going to boycott or relinquish my love for this series because it isn't performing as well as it could.

I love Detective Conan for what it is. But even if we love something, it is important to be critical.

I can't speak for anyone else, but by discussing what problems exist in Detective Conan, my aim is not to change Detective Conan or any current media in general. My aim by discussing these things is to implant the seeds of thought into not only the heads of those I'm discussing with, but my own head as well. I want people to discuss these problems, I want people to think about these problems. I don't want people to brush these things aside anymore, but I don't expect them to suddenly form a revolution.

What I want is to get people thinking differently and critically of the media they consume. The more people talk about it, the more people think about it, the more it will pushed forward, bit by tiny bit. Will talking on a Detective Conan forum about sexism and other big topics make a change? Yes. A big one? Oh, HELL nope. But there is still a change. Whether it be me talking to my roommate about it, whether it be someone discussing with their children, the topic will be brought up and very very very very very VERRRRY slowly, the world might get a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle less sexist.

Is that a stupid thing to think? Probably. But if I'm gonna be on this ball out in space, even if it's just a little change - again, even if it's just talking with my roommate - I'll be glad that I changed something.

Citan also gave a good response to the "how the manga operates" argument:

That doesn't mean I can't disagree with his methods, or be annoyed that he continues to give Ran the shaft so he can continue to send the detective boys on meaningless camping trips. As I said, I'm sure Gosho has a plan for her. I just wish he didn't have to reduce her to such a meaningless typical damsel role in the meantime.

In no way is it wrong to disagree with how Gosho does things. Being a fan of the manga doesn't mean that suddenly you've gotta agree and accept what Gosho does. As Citan says, it isn't that we're expecting or planning on forcing Gosho to change his ways, it's that we're frustrated by the fact that we know he won't.

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(quoted in the topic below: Kudo Shinichi, Wakarimashita, and kkslider552000)

Spoiler: Cultural Context

Again, this is fairly common in shounen manga, though I'm not saying that excuses it.

It's this type of thought that I relish in - that people are aware that commodity does not excuse something. It explains it, yes, but it does not justify.

Which is actually the core issue of the cultural context problem: it is taken less as an explanation and more of a justification.

Also, I'm not all that bothered about the so called sexism compared to most people. Gosho is a 50 year old man who was raised in a very patriarchal society, and one that still is quite patriarchal today compared to the standards we tend to hold in the west, and so I do expect to see aspects of that when I read Conan. The fact that DC reflects japanese society, although in a very simplified way, is one of the things that keeps me interested.

Along with slider's response:

upbringing doesn't make it not sexism. Sorry. :/

There's also the concept of complacency, something I heard almost nonstop over the summer, that by getting used to something we no longer become aware of it/we're desensitized to it. In the workplace, it's called the Silent Killer, and I think that's kind of accurate for sexism as well.

If people get used to sexism to the point that they're desensitized to it, they will see it as normal rather than a problem and sexism will continue to reign no matter what. Just like at work, it's all right to get more comfortable with your job but you always have to be alert, always be watchful for danger, always be ready so that a potential hazard doesn't slip past your vision.

I also mentioned in the previous topic that (again I can't speak for anyone else) I also expect these things from DC and what you said about Gosho is definitely an explanation.

But that's all, an explanation. It does not excuse it or make it right.

As for the fact that Detective Conan reflects Japanese society, it would be one thing if it were merely the environment of the story that was sexist, but it's another when there are several active scenes that portray sexism to the audience in a positive light, and that is a problem if it's not acknowledged. I agree that it is interesting that Detective Conan and Gosho's choices and all such things partially reflect Japanese culture, but again it is important to be critical rather than accepting. If people are actively aware and discuss the sexism, there's nothing to worry about.

What worries me is that people will just tuck it under the rug or avoid it altogether.

tbh, the sexism part (outside of that one case) was in the essay for how it worsens the character rather than hatred towards sexism in fiction in general. I think I made that clear.

Slider makes a good point here on how sexism in fiction is not necessarily a bad thing. The bad thing is that people don't ever seem to want to acknowledge it. It's that elephant in the room that's never going to leave until someone says something. Heck, it actually provides thoughtful and intriguing conversation.

Why is there an elephant in the room? - Why is there this sexist scene here?
How did the elephant even get in here? - How did the character turn out this sexist?
Is this elephant friendly? - Is this character well-meaning just misguided?

and so on and so forth.

When it comes to a japanese character living in what is supposed to be a representation of the japanese society, a certain dose of sexism is to be expected and I would go as far as to say it makes the character and interactions with others more believable

Again, the problem isn't in the fact that the environment is sexist, it's that the portrayal to the real live audience is sexist. It's also the fact that people don't acknowledge such things.

It actually makes me think back to months ago when I first made the post on the Eisuke scene and that a lot of the reactions were "Oh, I didn't realize that" or "I didn't see it that way". That scene has been around for years, and people hadn't thought of such a thing. If people don't talk about something critically, there's the chance that problems won't be acknowledged or recognized - even worse, they could be taken as something good.

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(quoted in the topic below: Misztina, Shiromi, and Kudo Shinichi)

Spoiler: Ran and Shinichi's Relationship

The confession in London was sweet, but also very weird. Ran actually squeezed a confession from Shinichi. Now it is supposed to be her time to confess her feelings, however... does she know Shinichi? Or what he is dealing with? Nope. Their relationship doesn't work and won't work if Ran is kept in the dark too much.

Yeah, the London confession was just all sorts of "huh?" From Shinichi's awkward wording to the fact that, like you said, Ran pretty much squeezed it out of him. Though to be fair, Ran's actions were actually quite realistic, we just weren't given enough attention to how badly Shinichi had hurt her to make it work. Shinichi's presence in London was played as more of a joke when Ran found out, what with her chasing him. Imo it should have focused more on how much Shinichi had hurt Ran. Then when it came around to her teary-eyed run, the situation could have been played along the lines of:

"I'm not going to wait for you and your stupid case this time. You've left me again and again and I've had it. If you really want me to stick around you're going to have to show it, because I'm not dealing with your excuses anymore."

Tbh, no relationship works if anyone is kept in the dark too much, at least healthy ones. That's part of the reason I just can't back ShinRan as much as I used to: there's just a clear lack of trust. I actually think at some point Conan/Shinichi outright admits he doesn't think Ran could keep the secret. Not to mention Ran often doubts Shinichi. Despite being childhood friends, it doesn't seem like they know each other as well as they should.

But if it is like this, I mean that Ran is "oppressed" when Conan/Shinichi is around, isn't that a bad relationship?

Considering that a healthy relationship should have both parties acting natural when they're around each other...yeaaaahhh, Shinichi and Ran's relationship isn't exactly that good anymore. Shinichi/Conan seems to suck out Ran's character, which not only sucks for the relationship (since they're supposed to play off each other and have chemistry) it sucks for Ran because she's getting the short end of the stick. I definitely get that Shinichi is the main character, but that doesn't mean that he's got to hog the spotlight/development.

In the beginning, Ran is much more active and less idolized. She saves Shinichi's life from the kidnapper. She figures out right away that something is wrong, and that Shinichi has disappeared. And in episode 2, she shows Shinichi what a colossal jerk he's been. She started out being the strength of the duo - both morally and physically. Shinichi has plenty of brains, but his moral decisions are questionable. He clearly doesn't respect Ran's intelligence, and continually lies to her. Even if he didn't tell her that he's Conan, just telling her more of the situation, like "I was attacked after I left you at the theme park. The people who did it are really dangerous, and I need to stay under the radar until I take them down." but he can't manage even that. He needs her to be his moral center - but she doesn't need him. I think that a great story arch could have been Shinichi realizing that she doesn't need him, that it's the other way around. Coming to grips with his selfishness could bring in some great character development on his part, and it'd make Ran more of a character in her own right, not just "You must think this chick is sexy and the perfect girlfriend!"

First thing: my roommate read your quote and forced me to quote her - "Beautiful *claps*"

I have to agree, these points are extremely well-made, and in fact I think that what you said was part of the reason I used to ship them. They had good balance at the start. They bounced off of each other. They completed each other - though really, more accurately put, Ran completed Shinichi.

I think that last thing is what happened that made things go south: suddenly Ran needed Shinichi. At the beginning when she missed him and such it seemed (to me at least) to be portrayed that she was worried for her good friend. It wasn't that she needed him there, she just needed to know that he was okay. It also seems that she just has abandonment issues in general, rather than just with Shinichi (see: her mother). She's suddenly so fixated on Shinichi.

...And...like just think of what a HUGE blow it would be to Shinichi/Conan's ego if, after the initial worry, Ran wasn't so fixated on him? That this girl that he likes doesn't fixate or need him as much as he does to her? That, yes, she does like him, but she doesn't let it consume her? That if he hurt her, she's not going to stand for that?

That he would realize he's the one that needs her rather than the other way around?

Never gonna happen, but it's a cool concept.

Ran vs. Conan, but of Ran vs. Conan and Heiji and Agasa, and Haibara and Yukiko. Conan has an all team available and ready to fool Ran, while she's just a high school girl on her own with no real, hard evidence.

Okay, so something this made me realize is...

I can definitely get the excuse reason of "She'll be in danger!" It's still dumb, but it's an excuse plot to keep the status quo. In terms of the series, I get it.

But then there's the fact that not only is Conan making this stupid excuse, not only Agasa but also Heiji, Haibara, Yukiko, and Yuusaku. That's at least six people (if there's no one I'm forgetting). Why are they even ganging up on Ran? Why is it that not a single one of them (Haibara I get, but at this point Agasa is less convincing) question Shinichi on his choice? Hell, even HAIBARA has that one line about putting a fence around a flower and causing it to wilt, where she pretty much acknowledges that "protecting" her isn't going to do anything.

I'd love it if someone (heck, maybe Sera) came in, figured out his identity, and then just went "What the hell, man, why haven't you told her? For someone you claim to love, you don't really communicate with her, do you?"

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(quoted in the topic below: Misztina, googleearth, and Yottas)

Spoiler: Sexism Views and Portrayals

I don't think Shinichi is being "sextister" than an average 17 year old boy/guy. Obviously one has a blind eye for their love interest. He thinks of her as a damsel in distress and that is why the story is focusing on her being very naive and need for for help. Other characters already realized that Ran has some good stuff underneath, she is just being a good girl, as if it was a sort of socially role for her. So, my point is, that Shinichi's point of view of everything, including Ran, is the story's point of view for most of the time.

Now the first part about Shinichi being sexist is not a problem. As said before, characters being sexist doesn't cause the problem, in fact it's interesting. It's the latter part - that the story focuses on sexism - that's the problem.

I actually know another series where the main character is extremely sexist, but he's still a good guy and the series itself is actually not portraying the sexism in a positive light. If the MC is being sexist, he is called out on it. Repeatedly. He's also slowly learning that his views and methods are wrong, and that his manipulation is hurting him as much as the girls he's manipulating.

On the other hand, Shinichi's sexism is played almost ideally in comparison. Him wanting to protect Ran is always seen as "chivalrous", even if it's unneeded. Him telling Eisuke he can't confess to Ran - something he has no say in - is played in a positive light - like that's something that you should do in the same situation. In the Stranger in 10 Years OVA, it's generally considered "sweet" and "cute" that Ran would wait 10 years for Shinichi, when it's ungodly unhealthy.

Detective Conan dresses up Shinichi's sexism as something good/normal, and THAT is the problem. Shinichi being sexist isn't the problem, it's that this trait of his is looked upon as something positive.

If you only have female characters that deal with housekeeping and raising children, then this can make it seem normal to the audience and women working might become less acceptable in society. If, however, you portray women as being successful in jobs that in the past have been male domains (FBI, CIA, high positions in police departments, law firms such as the one that Eri runs), then that's a good thing. That is why I believe Kir, Vermoth, Jodie, Sato, Eri and Akemi are strong characters whose depiction shows absolutely no signs of sexism whatsoever.

The portrayal of Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah, on the other hand, could be one where they provide useful information or come up with good ideas during the course of investigations. Unfortunately, the actual portrayal feels like they act as witnesses alone, by which I mean they do little more than state what they saw or heard. All the thinking is done by Conan and Heiji. I'm not suggesting that Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah should be depicted as being just as smart as Conan and Heiji, but Gosho could have them pick up on smaller hints. It just feels as if Kazuah and Sonoko are just around to give Heiji and Ran a sidekick without really impacting the course of the episode. Most cases involving them could easily be told without them there, so it seems that they don't really have a purpose.

While I definitely agree with your point of showing women in a variety of professions is nothing but a good thing, I also have to point out that that variety also includes things like housework and raising children. As I've mentioned to slider, feminism is about women doing what they want - and there are some women out there that do like housework and raising children...just like there are women that like law, wrestling, etc. This is why the erasure/ignoring of women in media is a problem: if there aren't a lot of women, there aren't enough to show a wide array of professions and personalities.

When it comes to Ran, Sonoko, and Kazuha, they don't fall into the category of "Characters who effect the plot" but rather "Characters who effect other characters". These types of characters are essential for creating good stories. Like, think of Seiji from the Moonlight Sonata case (forgive me if the name is wrong, going off memory here). Seiji did not effect the plot, but he effected Shinichi GREATLY. Seiji was a monumental character in the fact that Shinichi views that suicide as one of if not THE greatest failure he's had...though sadly I think Seiji's been forgotten by the manga by this point.

Ran, Sonoko, and Kazuha are characters that react with other characters. In a way, they are "sidekicks" of sorts, though Ran originally was much more standalone. In fact, Sonoko used to be the sidekick to Ran - the main person that effected her. But now Ran's fallen into the sidekick category, which again isn't bad on its own, but it is when someone who used to be individual is pushed out of their zone - like Ran. Kazuha plays off of Heiji's attitude, she exists to keep Heiji in line. She provides humor and growth for Heiji, and she succeeds. Sonoko is a driving force for Ran, teasing her about Shinichi and other such things. In fact, Ran is most like her usual self when around Sonoko. In that way, they are fulfilling some "purpose".

Some people in a German forum I often read (although I don't contribute myself there) noted this about Kazuah's portrayal in File 831 (I guess in the anime that's 711 - Everybody Witnessed It (Part 1)). Note: It's a rough translation and somewhat taken out of context.

After saying she has an important role in the case, Kazuah goes to the scene of the crime and mentions - repeatedly - that the chair that the victim seems to have used is the same one that the Toyamas have at their home. Before that Ran and Kazuah catch one's eye when they are excited about the elevator having a window. While reading that, I was shaking my head and thinking, "Wow, girls, what an adventure!"

That sort of touches upon what I've mentioned earlier.

I can see how that could be seen as sexist, but for me that scene was more comedic in that it's obvious that Kazuha just wanted to tag along to see Ran/Conan/Kogoro/Tokyo but she didn't have a good reason to come so she made one up. As for the elevator window, that was a blatant example of Gosho's "minor detail brought up that's going to be important for the murder case later" and low and behold, the window was part of the murder trick.

Just because there's a sexist character doesn't mean that the story is sexist. For instance, you could have a character be overly sexist in order to show how stupid it is. And vice versa: Just because sexist characters are nowhere to be found doesn't necessarily mean that the story isn't sexist.

I've mentioned numerous times that I in no way disagree with that first statement. In fact, I've said quite a few times those very same thoughts, just with different wording.

However, the question is put towards Shinichi which makes me interpret is as asking if it's okay with Shinichi to confess. From Shinichi's perspective it just looks like Eisuke thinks it would be unfair to enter into competition with Shinichi. It is a stupid thing to think, yeah. But I don't see why should it be Shinichi's burden to tell Eisuke not to care if other guys are interested in the same girl as he is?

That Shinichi and Eisuke would think of confessing to Ran as a "competition" kind of speaks for itself in the sexism there on how she's "a prize to be won" rather than a person.

As for that last question, for some reason I'm bothered by the wording "why should it be Shinichi's burden". I guess I have my own question: who's burden is it exactly? You say it shouldn't be Shinichi's, but it can't be Eisuke's - he can't tell himself not to care, and it can't be Ran because, well, she's been left out of this whole thing by Shinichi and Eisuke. So...who's burden is it to tell Eisuke what he's doing wrong?

But that actually is besides the point. Again, Shinichi's actions in the Eisuke scene aren't the problem, it's how his actions were portrayed. It was seen as sweet, when really it was crudely possessive.

Certain things in DC are sexist but not more than society itself is... There are more important things to worry about than sexism in DC.

As I mentioned in the first topic dealing with how the manga operates, it is important to be critical of the media we consume, and the argument "there are better things to talk about" is also used far too frequently to swipe these discussions under the rug.

On the contrary, I think that here - a Detective Conan forum, made for the purpose of discussing Detective Conan - arguably makes this discussion of the utmost importance. There is literally no better place than here to talk about these things, because talking about anything and everything Detective Conan is the point while on these forums.

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(quoted in the topic below: k11chi, Yottas, kkslider552000, Shiromi, and Citan)

Spoiler: Importance of Character Development

I don't care much about character development because for some reason everyone has been talking about it on every freaking site lately like it's the most important thing, when short stories have no need for character development, how about rather develop the plots and storylines you have?

Well, the first thing I'll wonder about it your mention of "short stories" in regards to...Detective...Conan. While I do agree that character development isn't always necessary - on the contrary sometimes flat characters are exactly what makes something work - the fact that you specifically mentioned "short stories"...while talking about Detective Conan, currently one of the longest mangas out there, just kind of...derailed the point slightly.

Anyway, the reason people talk about character development as something important is because it IS important. If a story doesn't have strong characters to fall back on - whether they be flat or rounded - it will fall short in other aspects as well. Characters are often people's windows into these worlds and plots and storylines, so if people can't relate to these characters, even if the plot/story is exceptional, they won't be able to connect with it.

As someone who has written quite a few things here and there, I know for a fact that if you create good characters, they will start to drive the plot. Instead of thinking "xxx is going to happen next" you start thinking "...hm, how would characterB react to eventX? I think that'd be cool to see"

I am a person who believes that any plot/story can be made good as long as the characters are good, while a good plot doesn't necessarily mean the characters will be good. For instance, even if characters were in very much a stupid situation, if people could relate to those characters and connect with them on how they were reacting to their environment - if they think "Yeah, I'd react that way too" - they can become immersed, even if the plot is dumb.

I've started to dislike a character named Ran because she has turned into a tool of Gosho's writing with the function to interrupt Conan's investigation (to decelerate the pace the plot is moving). Pre-Vermouth-Arc she was someone who has moved the plot forward, now she just stops the plot and that is something that I don't like, that I dislike.

You have a good point here, and I agree. I think part of the reason that she causes things to grind to a halt...is the fact that she's not allowed to move forward anymore, therefore if she's involved, the plot can't move either. Like I said above, characters are often what moves the plot forward, so if Ran is not allowed to move, it becomes obvious that the plot can't either.

Yeah, I think that's another point I agree upon. They aren't really doing anything with the character. Ran's just awkwardly waiting at this point, and occasionally there will be a scene that's just a rehash of better scenes from the past without adding anything. In general, while Detective Conan isn't known for its character arcs or anything, I do get the sense that the majority of recurring characters are at the very least slightly different from before (or in the case of a Kogoro like character, your perception of them is arguably different), while Ran seems to switch between stagnation and regressing or just flat out turning what could've been slightly questionable into highly questionable characterization.

This is definitely part of the problem. Ran waiting wouldn't be a problem in itself, but the fact that she's constantly switching character types - from being active to passive from stagnant to changing from moving forward to regressing back yet again - makes her extremely awkward. It gives the impression that Gosho just doesn't know what to do with her, and rather than just...let her be Ran, he forces her to the sidelines because IMO he just doesn't know how to write her anymore.

My theory is that it's a symptom of the series being stretched out a lot longer than it was originally planned. Unfortunately, the series isn't well-suited to a never-ending storyline. I think that there are stretch marks clearly visible early on (the bombing in the hotel and Sherry's confrontation with Gin, the end of the Vermouth/Jodie arch) when they realized, "Oh crap, they liked it a lot. How can we make the story longer?"), and when you've only got a few notes planned for one character, the character spends the rest of the story not doing much of interest.

This is also likely to be a huge part of the problem, shown by the fact that Ran in the early arcs was a good character. She was rounded and had a personality, even if she wasn't involved in the plot. Then somewhere along the line, Gosho ran out of "notes" so to speak on Ran's character, so she's stagnated. But the problem is, a character - even a flat one - never truly stagnates. They're always changing, if ever slightly.

I think this is Ran's problem: Gosho wants to keep her the same until she makes a move, but he realistically can't do that. So in order to stay "the same" Ran keeps regressing anytime that some sort of change, no matter how small, is instantly ignored as if it didn't happen so that she can stay at point A.

As for Ran. It's a mess. Realistically she should have found out the truth long ago. She's just had the idiot ball rammed down her throat for years to keep her from finding out until Gosho decides it's "time". It's frustrating and has really damaged the credibility her character. Not just that but I feel Gosho's stubborn refusal to let Ran find out ANYTHING is holding back the series as a whole. Letting her find out doesn't necessarily have to herald the end of the series. How interesting would it be to see Ran and Shinichi trying to deal with the implications of Ran being in on the secret? Of her having to secretly help Conan investigate cases while still pretending he's just a child to everyone else?

So much could come of Ran finally knowing the truth. It's a shame Gosho doesn't seem to want to explore that route, and it's a sad state of affairs when I can think of fanfics that have a better grasp on Ran's character than Gosho himself seems to these days. This thread asks why people hate Ran. I don't that that's actually the case. It seems to me that people hate what Ran has become. The empty promise she now represents. Gosho has teased us with her "suspicion arcs" so many times people have come to resent the character herself over it, and that's the biggest shame of all.

I agree with this. I believe it'd be so so interesting if Ran found out. Heck, even if it was sort of like pre-Desperate Revival where she knew but she decided to stay out of it. I think part of the frustration of Ran not finding out is also the fact that there have been soooo many "suspicion" arcs. Like, people don't seem as bothered that, say, Kogoro or Megure don't know, but that's because we haven't seen them "get close" as much as we have Ran, and not with nearly as much drama behind it (ex: Kogoro seemed to get suspicious early on in with Conan's "there are clocks in ever picture" thing, but dropped it almost immediately).

It's one thing for Ran to not know things, it's another to tease and bait us again and again and again and AGAIN. People can only take so much baiting before they've finally had enough, and I think a lot of people who are tired with the teasing have started to dislike Ran's empty promise (as you put it) as a result. Gosho is digging his own grave at this point...or rather he's digging Ran's grave.

Having a status quo is good in that it allows you a backdrop on which to paint your world and the events within. The problems start when you put maintaining the status quo ahead of everything else to the detriment of other parts of the story. When you have characters trapped in holding patterns for years because it would disrupt the status quo for them to progress any further... well, it's time for a new status quo.

Character development has to flow naturally with the story, else you break reader immersion. If you hold it back for too long because it's inconvenient to the plot you're going to end up committing character assassination to keep them from progressing as they should. People will grow tired and resentful because they can't accept how dense the character is being portrayed. Especially if the character in question was portrayed as highly competent beforehand. This is what is happening to Ran. She's been stripped of everything that made her an interesting character just to serve the status quo.

I couldn't have said that first paragraph better myself. That's exactly the problem. Again, characters should drive the plot, not the other way around. If they do something that would change an event, than the event should change.

Your second paragraph is also spot on. Since characters have personalities and such, if they get pushed by the plot, they'll resist. But the plot is event-driven, so if the characters are pushing the plot, there won't be resistance - or in other words, awkwardness. The thing with characters pushing the plot is that the plot depends on their moods and actions: if the plot is going slow, it's because the characters aren't in the mood yet to move forward - if it's going quick, it means the characters are acting and getting things done.

On the other hand, if the characters are in the mood to get things done but the plot won't let them, it derails their character because they aren't allowed to act in the way they're feeling, just because there's some invisible wall in the way.

tbh, I think Gosho should've every few months put out a chapter that has little to nothing to do with cases. Even if it's not specifically character development, give the characters a chance to just be characters without needing to focus on a case.

Yes, yes. We NEED some of these. I love these characters, but to be honest I'm sooo tired of seeing them see crime ALL the time. I need more chapters like the one-off where Kogoro was hiding from the Detective Boys so that he didn't have to buy them ice cream. That was sweet and funny, why aren't there more of those types of things?

[k11chi]

Ahhhh, finally have some time again. Though unfortunately I probably won't be able to address anything and everything, I'll stick with certain quotes and general topics that caught my attention

But first off: welcome to Shiromi!!! It's good to see another fan join in on the discussion uwu

Anyhoo, here are the topics I'm going to cover. If I've quoted you, I'll mention it before the spoiler box (because I understand that some might not want to read the entire wall of text I'm about to produce, and they would rather focus on my replies directly to them)

(quoted in the topic below: Wakarimashita and Citan)

Spoiler: How the manga operates

That's just not possible given how the manga operates though...

I've seen this argument a lot and it - at least in my case - doesn't actually really apply to anything at all. I am aware that what I would like to see is not at all what I'm going to see. I am aware that this manga is not going to suddenly change its ways, and I'm not going to rage that they aren't. I am not going to boycott or relinquish my love for this series because it isn't performing as well as it could.

I love Detective Conan for what it is. But even if we love something, it is important to be critical.

I can't speak for anyone else, but by discussing what problems exist in Detective Conan, my aim is not to change Detective Conan or any current media in general. My aim by discussing these things is to implant the seeds of thought into not only the heads of those I'm discussing with, but my own head as well. I want people to discuss these problems, I want people to think about these problems. I don't want people to brush these things aside anymore, but I don't expect them to suddenly form a revolution.

What I want is to get people thinking differently and critically of the media they consume. The more people talk about it, the more people think about it, the more it will pushed forward, bit by tiny bit. Will talking on a Detective Conan forum about sexism and other big topics make a change? Yes. A big one? Oh, HELL nope. But there is still a change. Whether it be me talking to my roommate about it, whether it be someone discussing with their children, the topic will be brought up and very very very very very VERRRRY slowly, the world might get a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle less sexist.

Is that a stupid thing to think? Probably. But if I'm gonna be on this ball out in space, even if it's just a little change - again, even if it's just talking with my roommate - I'll be glad that I changed something.

Citan also gave a good response to the "how the manga operates" argument:

That doesn't mean I can't disagree with his methods, or be annoyed that he continues to give Ran the shaft so he can continue to send the detective boys on meaningless camping trips. As I said, I'm sure Gosho has a plan for her. I just wish he didn't have to reduce her to such a meaningless typical damsel role in the meantime.

In no way is it wrong to disagree with how Gosho does things. Being a fan of the manga doesn't mean that suddenly you've gotta agree and accept what Gosho does. As Citan says, it isn't that we're expecting or planning on forcing Gosho to change his ways, it's that we're frustrated by the fact that we know he won't.

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(quoted in the topic below: Kudo Shinichi, Wakarimashita, and kkslider552000)

Spoiler: Cultural Context

Again, this is fairly common in shounen manga, though I'm not saying that excuses it.

It's this type of thought that I relish in - that people are aware that commodity does not excuse something. It explains it, yes, but it does not justify.

Which is actually the core issue of the cultural context problem: it is taken less as an explanation and more of a justification.

Also, I'm not all that bothered about the so called sexism compared to most people. Gosho is a 50 year old man who was raised in a very patriarchal society, and one that still is quite patriarchal today compared to the standards we tend to hold in the west, and so I do expect to see aspects of that when I read Conan. The fact that DC reflects japanese society, although in a very simplified way, is one of the things that keeps me interested.

Along with slider's response:

upbringing doesn't make it not sexism. Sorry. :/

There's also the concept of complacency, something I heard almost nonstop over the summer, that by getting used to something we no longer become aware of it/we're desensitized to it. In the workplace, it's called the Silent Killer, and I think that's kind of accurate for sexism as well.

If people get used to sexism to the point that they're desensitized to it, they will see it as normal rather than a problem and sexism will continue to reign no matter what. Just like at work, it's all right to get more comfortable with your job but you always have to be alert, always be watchful for danger, always be ready so that a potential hazard doesn't slip past your vision.

I also mentioned in the previous topic that (again I can't speak for anyone else) I also expect these things from DC and what you said about Gosho is definitely an explanation.

But that's all, an explanation. It does not excuse it or make it right.

As for the fact that Detective Conan reflects Japanese society, it would be one thing if it were merely the environment of the story that was sexist, but it's another when there are several active scenes that portray sexism to the audience in a positive light, and that is a problem if it's not acknowledged. I agree that it is interesting that Detective Conan and Gosho's choices and all such things partially reflect Japanese culture, but again it is important to be critical rather than accepting. If people are actively aware and discuss the sexism, there's nothing to worry about.

What worries me is that people will just tuck it under the rug or avoid it altogether.

tbh, the sexism part (outside of that one case) was in the essay for how it worsens the character rather than hatred towards sexism in fiction in general. I think I made that clear.

Slider makes a good point here on how sexism in fiction is not necessarily a bad thing. The bad thing is that people don't ever seem to want to acknowledge it. It's that elephant in the room that's never going to leave until someone says something. Heck, it actually provides thoughtful and intriguing conversation.

Why is there an elephant in the room? - Why is there this sexist scene here?
How did the elephant even get in here? - How did the character turn out this sexist?
Is this elephant friendly? - Is this character well-meaning just misguided?

and so on and so forth.

When it comes to a japanese character living in what is supposed to be a representation of the japanese society, a certain dose of sexism is to be expected and I would go as far as to say it makes the character and interactions with others more believable

Again, the problem isn't in the fact that the environment is sexist, it's that the portrayal to the real live audience is sexist. It's also the fact that people don't acknowledge such things.

It actually makes me think back to months ago when I first made the post on the Eisuke scene and that a lot of the reactions were "Oh, I didn't realize that" or "I didn't see it that way". That scene has been around for years, and people hadn't thought of such a thing. If people don't talk about something critically, there's the chance that problems won't be acknowledged or recognized - even worse, they could be taken as something good.

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(quoted in the topic below: Misztina, Shiromi, and Kudo Shinichi)

Spoiler: Ran and Shinichi's Relationship

The confession in London was sweet, but also very weird. Ran actually squeezed a confession from Shinichi. Now it is supposed to be her time to confess her feelings, however... does she know Shinichi? Or what he is dealing with? Nope. Their relationship doesn't work and won't work if Ran is kept in the dark too much.

Yeah, the London confession was just all sorts of "huh?" From Shinichi's awkward wording to the fact that, like you said, Ran pretty much squeezed it out of him. Though to be fair, Ran's actions were actually quite realistic, we just weren't given enough attention to how badly Shinichi had hurt her to make it work. Shinichi's presence in London was played as more of a joke when Ran found out, what with her chasing him. Imo it should have focused more on how much Shinichi had hurt Ran. Then when it came around to her teary-eyed run, the situation could have been played along the lines of:

"I'm not going to wait for you and your stupid case this time. You've left me again and again and I've had it. If you really want me to stick around you're going to have to show it, because I'm not dealing with your excuses anymore."

Tbh, no relationship works if anyone is kept in the dark too much, at least healthy ones. That's part of the reason I just can't back ShinRan as much as I used to: there's just a clear lack of trust. I actually think at some point Conan/Shinichi outright admits he doesn't think Ran could keep the secret. Not to mention Ran often doubts Shinichi. Despite being childhood friends, it doesn't seem like they know each other as well as they should.

But if it is like this, I mean that Ran is "oppressed" when Conan/Shinichi is around, isn't that a bad relationship?

Considering that a healthy relationship should have both parties acting natural when they're around each other...yeaaaahhh, Shinichi and Ran's relationship isn't exactly that good anymore. Shinichi/Conan seems to suck out Ran's character, which not only sucks for the relationship (since they're supposed to play off each other and have chemistry) it sucks for Ran because she's getting the short end of the stick. I definitely get that Shinichi is the main character, but that doesn't mean that he's got to hog the spotlight/development.

In the beginning, Ran is much more active and less idolized. She saves Shinichi's life from the kidnapper. She figures out right away that something is wrong, and that Shinichi has disappeared. And in episode 2, she shows Shinichi what a colossal jerk he's been. She started out being the strength of the duo - both morally and physically. Shinichi has plenty of brains, but his moral decisions are questionable. He clearly doesn't respect Ran's intelligence, and continually lies to her. Even if he didn't tell her that he's Conan, just telling her more of the situation, like "I was attacked after I left you at the theme park. The people who did it are really dangerous, and I need to stay under the radar until I take them down." but he can't manage even that. He needs her to be his moral center - but she doesn't need him. I think that a great story arch could have been Shinichi realizing that she doesn't need him, that it's the other way around. Coming to grips with his selfishness could bring in some great character development on his part, and it'd make Ran more of a character in her own right, not just "You must think this chick is sexy and the perfect girlfriend!"

First thing: my roommate read your quote and forced me to quote her - "Beautiful *claps*"

I have to agree, these points are extremely well-made, and in fact I think that what you said was part of the reason I used to ship them. They had good balance at the start. They bounced off of each other. They completed each other - though really, more accurately put, Ran completed Shinichi.

I think that last thing is what happened that made things go south: suddenly Ran needed Shinichi. At the beginning when she missed him and such it seemed (to me at least) to be portrayed that she was worried for her good friend. It wasn't that she needed him there, she just needed to know that he was okay. It also seems that she just has abandonment issues in general, rather than just with Shinichi (see: her mother). She's suddenly so fixated on Shinichi.

...And...like just think of what a HUGE blow it would be to Shinichi/Conan's ego if, after the initial worry, Ran wasn't so fixated on him? That this girl that he likes doesn't fixate or need him as much as he does to her? That, yes, she does like him, but she doesn't let it consume her? That if he hurt her, she's not going to stand for that?

That he would realize he's the one that needs her rather than the other way around?

Never gonna happen, but it's a cool concept.

Ran vs. Conan, but of Ran vs. Conan and Heiji and Agasa, and Haibara and Yukiko. Conan has an all team available and ready to fool Ran, while she's just a high school girl on her own with no real, hard evidence.

Okay, so something this made me realize is...

I can definitely get the excuse reason of "She'll be in danger!" It's still dumb, but it's an excuse plot to keep the status quo. In terms of the series, I get it.

But then there's the fact that not only is Conan making this stupid excuse, not only Agasa but also Heiji, Haibara, Yukiko, and Yuusaku. That's at least six people (if there's no one I'm forgetting). Why are they even ganging up on Ran? Why is it that not a single one of them (Haibara I get, but at this point Agasa is less convincing) question Shinichi on his choice? Hell, even HAIBARA has that one line about putting a fence around a flower and causing it to wilt, where she pretty much acknowledges that "protecting" her isn't going to do anything.

I'd love it if someone (heck, maybe Sera) came in, figured out his identity, and then just went "What the hell, man, why haven't you told her? For someone you claim to love, you don't really communicate with her, do you?"

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(quoted in the topic below: Misztina, googleearth, and Yottas)

Spoiler: Sexism Views and Portrayals

I don't think Shinichi is being "sextister" than an average 17 year old boy/guy. Obviously one has a blind eye for their love interest. He thinks of her as a damsel in distress and that is why the story is focusing on her being very naive and need for for help. Other characters already realized that Ran has some good stuff underneath, she is just being a good girl, as if it was a sort of socially role for her. So, my point is, that Shinichi's point of view of everything, including Ran, is the story's point of view for most of the time.

Now the first part about Shinichi being sexist is not a problem. As said before, characters being sexist doesn't cause the problem, in fact it's interesting. It's the latter part - that the story focuses on sexism - that's the problem.

I actually know another series where the main character is extremely sexist, but he's still a good guy and the series itself is actually not portraying the sexism in a positive light. If the MC is being sexist, he is called out on it. Repeatedly. He's also slowly learning that his views and methods are wrong, and that his manipulation is hurting him as much as the girls he's manipulating.

On the other hand, Shinichi's sexism is played almost ideally in comparison. Him wanting to protect Ran is always seen as "chivalrous", even if it's unneeded. Him telling Eisuke he can't confess to Ran - something he has no say in - is played in a positive light - like that's something that you should do in the same situation. In the Stranger in 10 Years OVA, it's generally considered "sweet" and "cute" that Ran would wait 10 years for Shinichi, when it's ungodly unhealthy.

Detective Conan dresses up Shinichi's sexism as something good/normal, and THAT is the problem. Shinichi being sexist isn't the problem, it's that this trait of his is looked upon as something positive.

If you only have female characters that deal with housekeeping and raising children, then this can make it seem normal to the audience and women working might become less acceptable in society. If, however, you portray women as being successful in jobs that in the past have been male domains (FBI, CIA, high positions in police departments, law firms such as the one that Eri runs), then that's a good thing. That is why I believe Kir, Vermoth, Jodie, Sato, Eri and Akemi are strong characters whose depiction shows absolutely no signs of sexism whatsoever.

The portrayal of Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah, on the other hand, could be one where they provide useful information or come up with good ideas during the course of investigations. Unfortunately, the actual portrayal feels like they act as witnesses alone, by which I mean they do little more than state what they saw or heard. All the thinking is done by Conan and Heiji. I'm not suggesting that Ran, Sonoko and Kazuah should be depicted as being just as smart as Conan and Heiji, but Gosho could have them pick up on smaller hints. It just feels as if Kazuah and Sonoko are just around to give Heiji and Ran a sidekick without really impacting the course of the episode. Most cases involving them could easily be told without them there, so it seems that they don't really have a purpose.

While I definitely agree with your point of showing women in a variety of professions is nothing but a good thing, I also have to point out that that variety also includes things like housework and raising children. As I've mentioned to slider, feminism is about women doing what they want - and there are some women out there that do like housework and raising children...just like there are women that like law, wrestling, etc. This is why the erasure/ignoring of women in media is a problem: if there aren't a lot of women, there aren't enough to show a wide array of professions and personalities.

When it comes to Ran, Sonoko, and Kazuha, they don't fall into the category of "Characters who effect the plot" but rather "Characters who effect other characters". These types of characters are essential for creating good stories. Like, think of Seiji from the Moonlight Sonata case (forgive me if the name is wrong, going off memory here). Seiji did not effect the plot, but he effected Shinichi GREATLY. Seiji was a monumental character in the fact that Shinichi views that suicide as one of if not THE greatest failure he's had...though sadly I think Seiji's been forgotten by the manga by this point.

Ran, Sonoko, and Kazuha are characters that react with other characters. In a way, they are "sidekicks" of sorts, though Ran originally was much more standalone. In fact, Sonoko used to be the sidekick to Ran - the main person that effected her. But now Ran's fallen into the sidekick category, which again isn't bad on its own, but it is when someone who used to be individual is pushed out of their zone - like Ran. Kazuha plays off of Heiji's attitude, she exists to keep Heiji in line. She provides humor and growth for Heiji, and she succeeds. Sonoko is a driving force for Ran, teasing her about Shinichi and other such things. In fact, Ran is most like her usual self when around Sonoko. In that way, they are fulfilling some "purpose".

Some people in a German forum I often read (although I don't contribute myself there) noted this about Kazuah's portrayal in File 831 (I guess in the anime that's 711 - Everybody Witnessed It (Part 1)). Note: It's a rough translation and somewhat taken out of context.

After saying she has an important role in the case, Kazuah goes to the scene of the crime and mentions - repeatedly - that the chair that the victim seems to have used is the same one that the Toyamas have at their home. Before that Ran and Kazuah catch one's eye when they are excited about the elevator having a window. While reading that, I was shaking my head and thinking, "Wow, girls, what an adventure!"

That sort of touches upon what I've mentioned earlier.

I can see how that could be seen as sexist, but for me that scene was more comedic in that it's obvious that Kazuha just wanted to tag along to see Ran/Conan/Kogoro/Tokyo but she didn't have a good reason to come so she made one up. As for the elevator window, that was a blatant example of Gosho's "minor detail brought up that's going to be important for the murder case later" and low and behold, the window was part of the murder trick.

Just because there's a sexist character doesn't mean that the story is sexist. For instance, you could have a character be overly sexist in order to show how stupid it is. And vice versa: Just because sexist characters are nowhere to be found doesn't necessarily mean that the story isn't sexist.

I've mentioned numerous times that I in no way disagree with that first statement. In fact, I've said quite a few times those very same thoughts, just with different wording.

However, the question is put towards Shinichi which makes me interpret is as asking if it's okay with Shinichi to confess. From Shinichi's perspective it just looks like Eisuke thinks it would be unfair to enter into competition with Shinichi. It is a stupid thing to think, yeah. But I don't see why should it be Shinichi's burden to tell Eisuke not to care if other guys are interested in the same girl as he is?

That Shinichi and Eisuke would think of confessing to Ran as a "competition" kind of speaks for itself in the sexism there on how she's "a prize to be won" rather than a person.

As for that last question, for some reason I'm bothered by the wording "why should it be Shinichi's burden". I guess I have my own question: who's burden is it exactly? You say it shouldn't be Shinichi's, but it can't be Eisuke's - he can't tell himself not to care, and it can't be Ran because, well, she's been left out of this whole thing by Shinichi and Eisuke. So...who's burden is it to tell Eisuke what he's doing wrong?

But that actually is besides the point. Again, Shinichi's actions in the Eisuke scene aren't the problem, it's how his actions were portrayed. It was seen as sweet, when really it was crudely possessive.

Certain things in DC are sexist but not more than society itself is... There are more important things to worry about than sexism in DC.

As I mentioned in the first topic dealing with how the manga operates, it is important to be critical of the media we consume, and the argument "there are better things to talk about" is also used far too frequently to swipe these discussions under the rug.

On the contrary, I think that here - a Detective Conan forum, made for the purpose of discussing Detective Conan - arguably makes this discussion of the utmost importance. There is literally no better place than here to talk about these things, because talking about anything and everything Detective Conan is the point while on these forums.

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(quoted in the topic below: k11chi, Yottas, kkslider552000, Shiromi, and Citan)

Spoiler: Importance of Character Development

I don't care much about character development because for some reason everyone has been talking about it on every freaking site lately like it's the most important thing, when short stories have no need for character development, how about rather develop the plots and storylines you have?

Well, the first thing I'll wonder about it your mention of "short stories" in regards to...Detective...Conan. While I do agree that character development isn't always necessary - on the contrary sometimes flat characters are exactly what makes something work - the fact that you specifically mentioned "short stories"...while talking about Detective Conan, currently one of the longest mangas out there, just kind of...derailed the point slightly.

Anyway, the reason people talk about character development as something important is because it IS important. If a story doesn't have strong characters to fall back on - whether they be flat or rounded - it will fall short in other aspects as well. Characters are often people's windows into these worlds and plots and storylines, so if people can't relate to these characters, even if the plot/story is exceptional, they won't be able to connect with it.

As someone who has written quite a few things here and there, I know for a fact that if you create good characters, they will start to drive the plot. Instead of thinking "xxx is going to happen next" you start thinking "...hm, how would characterB react to eventX? I think that'd be cool to see"

I am a person who believes that any plot/story can be made good as long as the characters are good, while a good plot doesn't necessarily mean the characters will be good. For instance, even if characters were in very much a stupid situation, if people could relate to those characters and connect with them on how they were reacting to their environment - if they think "Yeah, I'd react that way too" - they can become immersed, even if the plot is dumb.

I've started to dislike a character named Ran because she has turned into a tool of Gosho's writing with the function to interrupt Conan's investigation (to decelerate the pace the plot is moving). Pre-Vermouth-Arc she was someone who has moved the plot forward, now she just stops the plot and that is something that I don't like, that I dislike.

You have a good point here, and I agree. I think part of the reason that she causes things to grind to a halt...is the fact that she's not allowed to move forward anymore, therefore if she's involved, the plot can't move either. Like I said above, characters are often what moves the plot forward, so if Ran is not allowed to move, it becomes obvious that the plot can't either.

Yeah, I think that's another point I agree upon. They aren't really doing anything with the character. Ran's just awkwardly waiting at this point, and occasionally there will be a scene that's just a rehash of better scenes from the past without adding anything. In general, while Detective Conan isn't known for its character arcs or anything, I do get the sense that the majority of recurring characters are at the very least slightly different from before (or in the case of a Kogoro like character, your perception of them is arguably different), while Ran seems to switch between stagnation and regressing or just flat out turning what could've been slightly questionable into highly questionable characterization.

This is definitely part of the problem. Ran waiting wouldn't be a problem in itself, but the fact that she's constantly switching character types - from being active to passive from stagnant to changing from moving forward to regressing back yet again - makes her extremely awkward. It gives the impression that Gosho just doesn't know what to do with her, and rather than just...let her be Ran, he forces her to the sidelines because IMO he just doesn't know how to write her anymore.

My theory is that it's a symptom of the series being stretched out a lot longer than it was originally planned. Unfortunately, the series isn't well-suited to a never-ending storyline. I think that there are stretch marks clearly visible early on (the bombing in the hotel and Sherry's confrontation with Gin, the end of the Vermouth/Jodie arch) when they realized, "Oh crap, they liked it a lot. How can we make the story longer?"), and when you've only got a few notes planned for one character, the character spends the rest of the story not doing much of interest.

This is also likely to be a huge part of the problem, shown by the fact that Ran in the early arcs was a good character. She was rounded and had a personality, even if she wasn't involved in the plot. Then somewhere along the line, Gosho ran out of "notes" so to speak on Ran's character, so she's stagnated. But the problem is, a character - even a flat one - never truly stagnates. They're always changing, if ever slightly.

I think this is Ran's problem: Gosho wants to keep her the same until she makes a move, but he realistically can't do that. So in order to stay "the same" Ran keeps regressing anytime that some sort of change, no matter how small, is instantly ignored as if it didn't happen so that she can stay at point A.

As for Ran. It's a mess. Realistically she should have found out the truth long ago. She's just had the idiot ball rammed down her throat for years to keep her from finding out until Gosho decides it's "time". It's frustrating and has really damaged the credibility her character. Not just that but I feel Gosho's stubborn refusal to let Ran find out ANYTHING is holding back the series as a whole. Letting her find out doesn't necessarily have to herald the end of the series. How interesting would it be to see Ran and Shinichi trying to deal with the implications of Ran being in on the secret? Of her having to secretly help Conan investigate cases while still pretending he's just a child to everyone else?

So much could come of Ran finally knowing the truth. It's a shame Gosho doesn't seem to want to explore that route, and it's a sad state of affairs when I can think of fanfics that have a better grasp on Ran's character than Gosho himself seems to these days. This thread asks why people hate Ran. I don't that that's actually the case. It seems to me that people hate what Ran has become. The empty promise she now represents. Gosho has teased us with her "suspicion arcs" so many times people have come to resent the character herself over it, and that's the biggest shame of all.

I agree with this. I believe it'd be so so interesting if Ran found out. Heck, even if it was sort of like pre-Desperate Revival where she knew but she decided to stay out of it. I think part of the frustration of Ran not finding out is also the fact that there have been soooo many "suspicion" arcs. Like, people don't seem as bothered that, say, Kogoro or Megure don't know, but that's because we haven't seen them "get close" as much as we have Ran, and not with nearly as much drama behind it (ex: Kogoro seemed to get suspicious early on in with Conan's "there are clocks in ever picture" thing, but dropped it almost immediately).

It's one thing for Ran to not know things, it's another to tease and bait us again and again and again and AGAIN. People can only take so much baiting before they've finally had enough, and I think a lot of people who are tired with the teasing have started to dislike Ran's empty promise (as you put it) as a result. Gosho is digging his own grave at this point...or rather he's digging Ran's grave.

Having a status quo is good in that it allows you a backdrop on which to paint your world and the events within. The problems start when you put maintaining the status quo ahead of everything else to the detriment of other parts of the story. When you have characters trapped in holding patterns for years because it would disrupt the status quo for them to progress any further... well, it's time for a new status quo.

Character development has to flow naturally with the story, else you break reader immersion. If you hold it back for too long because it's inconvenient to the plot you're going to end up committing character assassination to keep them from progressing as they should. People will grow tired and resentful because they can't accept how dense the character is being portrayed. Especially if the character in question was portrayed as highly competent beforehand. This is what is happening to Ran. She's been stripped of everything that made her an interesting character just to serve the status quo.

I couldn't have said that first paragraph better myself. That's exactly the problem. Again, characters should drive the plot, not the other way around. If they do something that would change an event, than the event should change.

Your second paragraph is also spot on. Since characters have personalities and such, if they get pushed by the plot, they'll resist. But the plot is event-driven, so if the characters are pushing the plot, there won't be resistance - or in other words, awkwardness. The thing with characters pushing the plot is that the plot depends on their moods and actions: if the plot is going slow, it's because the characters aren't in the mood yet to move forward - if it's going quick, it means the characters are acting and getting things done.

On the other hand, if the characters are in the mood to get things done but the plot won't let them, it derails their character because they aren't allowed to act in the way they're feeling, just because there's some invisible wall in the way.

tbh, I think Gosho should've every few months put out a chapter that has little to nothing to do with cases. Even if it's not specifically character development, give the characters a chance to just be characters without needing to focus on a case.

Yes, yes. We NEED some of these. I love these characters, but to be honest I'm sooo tired of seeing them see crime ALL the time. I need more chapters like the one-off where Kogoro was hiding from the Detective Boys so that he didn't have to buy them ice cream. That was sweet and funny, why aren't there more of those types of things?

Yes, seeing something you want to see in a story is only good in theory, not in "reality". It would be nothing more than fanfic/fanservice (at best)

Anyway I meant character development in general in fiction, I've heard the same thing over and over again how it is very important in every existing story out there. Realistically speaking, hardly anyone cares. It's just for the sake of complaining if the character doesn't get development, since not all stories last over 5 years. I'm pretty sure you know how people complain about the length of any long running series, in the shorter ones (not just short stories), it's pretty much impossible to make the perfect story where every single character gets a flashback of his/her sad past, meaning, "deep" reason, consistent development for the numerous characters with Original looks and attitudes etcetcetc... if the series is not long then it will be missing something like world building and different fictional rules for the world where they live in (networks etc) automatically making the story not-"good"

Also the storyline and plot itself has to be about the character development then, since the story is short and you have limited amount of time a week in order to stuff the panels in one chapter, draw, write etc (Also most shorter stories don't get as much freedom as Gosho, who can take breaks in order to plan the cases out).

Hmm... Cage of Eden was pretty interesting manga. The storyline and everything was interesting to no end I used to read it for few years. Then after like chapter 100 or so, it started dragging as mad, the last 40 chapters were just pointless and it was sad how the story has so many mysteries there and everyone was trying to solve it. then the manga got axed and it ended in plot holes and nonsense, which is also what people seem to have hunger for. The story and characters must be "realistic"... The CoE manga was about high school kids appearing in island with prehistoric creatures btw, was pretty fantastic except for the awfullygeneric characters... As much as people want to see something happen that they would want to see happening. most of the time the more experienced ones want to see what "realistically" would happen at certain times. If it happens however, they will complain how there are no plot twists and the series is bad because it doesn't surprise you, so that's another must in anime fandom these days.

I just talked with someone about this earlier today but there're also reasons why we see each season series that are so similar, which people just keep complaining about because it doesn't fit their taste to see same thing over and over again(anime mostly). One of the reasons is that working in the industry as an animator or etc doesn’t pay you well because of the low wages. Hence if you want to get a career in that field don’t expect to be paid decently. If an anime fails and doesn’t make the studio any money at the end its going to be pretty bad for those people that work there. They might as well stick to making something that they know will get them some money by a certain audience.

The non-realism aspect is the reason why from "pro writers" standpoint series like Kill la Kill and Gurren Lagann, suck... Which is obviously not true, since it's entertainment. You don't see much "writing" in UFC like you see in the scripted Smackdown so called "Fights", yet people can respect and get more enjoyment out of watching UFC instead, the world isn't all black and white...

[kkslider5552000]

Most of what you said is rambling that I cannot begin to comprehend the overall point of tbh. Like I genuinely don't know why you mentioned most of what you mentioned. But...

Yes, seeing something you want to see in a story is only good in theory, not in "reality". It would be nothing more than fanfic/fanservice (at best)

Except some of Gosho's decisions recently have been EXACTLY what I have been asking for and it is mostly better off for it, so ha!

Not to mention this idea has more holes than swiss cheese, mainly because it is so general, it can't be true.

[k11chi]

Most of what you said is rambling that I cannot begin to comprehend the overall point of tbh. Like I genuinely don't know why you mentioned most of what you mentioned. But...

Yes, seeing something you want to see in a story is only good in theory, not in "reality". It would be nothing more than fanfic/fanservice (at best)

Except some of Gosho's decisions recently have been EXACTLY what I have been asking for and it is mostly better off for it, so ha!

Not to mention this idea has more holes than swiss cheese, mainly because it is so general, it can't be true.

I mean more like... if you read Naruto, Kishimoto (the author) makes a "mistake" and next chapter, if people on some random japanese forum complain about it, it's being justified. It's just ridicilous and painful to watch. Which I heard was his editors doing too.

Also the point was that there can never be something like perfect story obviously...

[Kudo Shinchi]

I have a certain philosophy I go by... and that is that the characters are the story. With the exception of specific cases like comedies or short stories, I can't become invested in any story if I don't care about the characters. How do you get me to care about the characters? By developing them, making them real, making them people you can relate to. This is especially important when you want to write a story that has a real effect n the audience. Of course, someone like a despicable villain could be well-rounded and still be despicable and unlikable, but that's another story.

To use an anime as an example, let's talk about Attack on Titan. I liked it, the plot was interesting, there was suspense...but one thing that I personally found lacking for the majority of the cast was good character development. People were killed off almost as fast as they were introduced, so they never grew beyond one-dimensional characters whose names aren't even worth remembering. The brutality of their deaths was shocking, sure..but that was it. I didn't feel much for the characters. (Of course, this could also be a result of me knowing most of them were going to die so I didn't care much either way, but I think you get the idea.) Detective Conan developed the majority of its characters well enough so that I came to genuinely care for them. More so, the story makes sense, as Gosho has generally done a good job of keeping the majority of the actions of the characters consistent with what we know about their personality.

Which brings me to another point: if the personalities of the characters aren't well established, they become unpredictable, and nothing more than plot devices. Say Person A is confronted by a difficult situation where he can make three different choices. The author, if he did his job, should know which choice Person A would most likely make in that situation under these circumstances. If you know your characters well enough, they literally write much of the story for you, as it is driven by what they do. If the characters are simply tools to be manipulated by the author to get the plot in a certain direction without a realistic reason for doing so, the story becomes plot-driven, and is harder to immerse yourself in because its clear this story isn't about the characters. Good authors get the story going in the direction they want it while staying true to the characters' personalities.

You could claim this applies in the case of Ran not discovering Conan's identity, but I think that Gosho has done a good job of making Ran's failure to discover his identity realistic for her considering the tricks Conan pulls on her. Now, talking about Ran; I think nearly all of her problems come down to the series being too long. In fact, I'd say that the majority of any issues DC has come down to that: it is simply too long. There is only so much Gosho can do. I mentioned earlier that he kept Ran relevant to the Vermouth arc by having her involved with Akai, Vermouth, etc. I don't think he could have realistically done the same in the Kir arc. As for the Bourbon arc, the main role he's given her so far is her slow gathering of clues that Conan's not Shinichi, which is better than what happened in the Kir arc, I guess, but not as clever as her incorporation in the Vermouth arc.

Now, once again I'll be the one to say that I don't have that many gripes with Ran's character as she is now, unfortunate sexism and diminished role aside. She still is very much the character she was in the begginning of the series IMO. Think about her post-Vermouth arc. Remember when she figured out that Eri was seeing a guy and charged off on her own, almost attacking the guy for hurting her mom? Or how she attempted to crack Conan's password based on her suspicions of him, and actually solved the code. How she's faced various criminals confidently and beaten them since then. How she's still superstitious? Or when she saved that kidnapped mayor in the paper plane case? Even as recently as the Sera case in the Mouri Detective Agency, when she foiled Sera's plan to eliminate the criminal to prevent loss of life. She may not have actually changed much, but at least her personality's still consistent. Her Karate life hasn't been forgotten either; she recently won a very important tournament, which was explicitly brought up in Sera's intro case, and she used her abilities to help catch the culprit in the recent Heiji case. Point is, her significance may have diminished a bit for the time being, due to Gosho not finding a way to put her into the Bourbon arc's main plotline more smoothly, but she's still Ran. I don't find her very awkward at all. Something to think about: couldn't her gradual need for Shinichi to be around instead of just knowing he's alright is how due to how long he's been gone? Ran's always had abandonment issues, and the few times Shinichi has returned only to vanish again isn't helping, i'd think.

Also, I find it incredibly ironic that the masked man-fortune-whatever case, one which Gosho most likely wrote to send the message that Ran's fine the way she is, that she doesn't need to change herself for Shinichi, is now regarded as the most blatant case of sexism in DC. More unintentional sexism on Gosho's part...its unfortunate.

[Shiromi]

Welcome to the site Shiromi. We're glad to have you. I'm sure you'll love it here.

From the looks of things, I think I will too!

But first off: welcome to Shiromi!!! It's good to see another fan join in on the discussion uwu

Thanks! I'd been trying to start up discussions about DC with some of my anime fan friends, but they weren't as interested in it, and it ended with me soapboxing to an empty street. I'd been on the look out for a good community to join ever since. The complexity and depth of this series, not to mention how long its been running, gives one a great vantage point to inspect trends in Japanese culture and literature, as well as meditate on the art of story telling itself. Which is why I love it.

As for Ran. It's a mess. Realistically she should have found out the truth long ago. She's just had the idiot ball rammed down her throat for years to keep her from finding out until Gosho decides it's "time". It's frustrating and has really damaged the credibility her character. Not just that but I feel Gosho's stubborn refusal to let Ran find out ANYTHING is holding back the series as a whole. Letting her find out doesn't necessarily have to herald the end of the series. How interesting would it be to see Ran and Shinichi trying to deal with the implications of Ran being in on the secret? Of her having to secretly help Conan investigate cases while still pretending he's just a child to everyone else?

I agree that the number of suspicion arcs is repetitive and overused, but I don't think that it reflects badly on Ran's character. In order to get rid of her suspicions, everyone who knows his secret has to work overtime, but she still knows something is up. She's the reason that Conan is able to get into so many crime scenes - she's noticed that his observations are extremely helpful is solving cases, to the point where it often seems like he's the one investigating, not the police. I recall one of the suspicion arcs that was from her POV, where she studies Conan's actions and realizes he's manipulating the police and detectives around him into figuring out the truth, that every single advance in the case was from his observations. But, a teenager turning into a gradeschooler is such a preposterous idea, it's just too difficult to wrap your head around until you figure out how it could be done. In the face of the "teenager somehow turned into little kid" theory, "super-smart little relative of Shinishi's who worships the ground Shinichi walks on" is a much more plausible explanation.

*Scrolls down* Actually, just read Kudo Shinichi's post. It breaks things down a lot more clearly.

So much could come of Ran finally knowing the truth. It's a shame Gosho doesn't seem to want to explore that route, and it's a sad state of affairs when I can think of fanfics that have a better grasp on Ran's character than Gosho himself seems to these days. This thread asks why people hate Ran. I don't that that's actually the case. It seems to me that people hate what Ran has become. The empty promise she now represents. Gosho has teased us with her "suspicion arcs" so many times people have come to resent the character herself over it, and that's the biggest shame of all.

Yeah... it's like someone playing a scale and stopping at Ti. I feel like I've been held in suspense too long, and the story keeps sprinting up a hill to stop right before getting to the top, trips, then rolls down the hill so we have to start all over again... that's a lovely mess of metaphors.

I don't really think that fanfiction writers have a better grasp on Ran's character; I think that they're taking the last step that's been held in suspense for so long. Hitting the octave, reaching the top of the hill... silly metaphors. That discord is why I ended up shipping Ran and Sonoko, but that may be because I'm weird (If a statistical analysis is to be believed - I haven't been able to find any other writers slashing them).

I love Detective Conan for what it is. But even if we love something, it is important to be critical.

I can't speak for anyone else, but by discussing what problems exist in Detective Conan, my aim is not to change Detective Conan or any current media in general. My aim by discussing these things is to implant the seeds of thought into not only the heads of those I'm discussing with, but my own head as well. I want people to discuss these problems, I want people to think about these problems. I don't want people to brush these things aside anymore, but I don't expect them to suddenly form a revolution.

What I want is to get people thinking differently and critically of the media they consume. The more people talk about it, the more people think about it, the more it will pushed forward, bit by tiny bit. Will talking on a Detective Conan forum about sexism and other big topics make a change? Yes. A big one? Oh, HELL nope. But there is still a change. Whether it be me talking to my roommate about it, whether it be someone discussing with their children, the topic will be brought up and very very very very very VERRRRY slowly, the world might get a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle less sexist.

Is that a stupid thing to think? Probably. But if I'm gonna be on this ball out in space, even if it's just a little change - again, even if it's just talking with my roommate - I'll be glad that I changed something.

I always get confused when people say that to love something, one should put it on a pedestal and not look at it too closely. That seems like a contradiction to me. Criticizing the faults in something you love doesn't negate your love of it. It just means that others, and perhaps yourself as well, in making the next great whatever will learn from the faults of previous great works, and not fall into the same traps. It means that fifty years after Lord of the Rings was published, we can still be in awe of the world-building effort and skill Tolkien had in making texts feel like they'd been passed down for generations, but we can flinch at the racist and sexist undertones, as well as some of the bizarre attempts by Tolkien to rationalize his religion in a world more and more not supporting it. I still love The Lord of the Rings; I still love Detective Conan, and I still criticize them.

Long story short- 100% agreed with you there.

One of the things that I love about DC is that it doesn't fall into many of the sexism traps that still are strong in Japanese culture. We can point to the times it failed and was sexist, but we can also point to the times he got it right. He got a lot more right than many other series and stories I can think of.

For example, the murderers in the cases they face, you never know if they're going to be male or female. That's kinda a weird thing to call a positive aspect of the series, but it means that he's recognizing that women have enough agency to murder, which is actually a rare thing in fiction.

In the beginning, Ran is much more active and less idolized. She saves Shinichi's life from the kidnapper. She figures out right away that something is wrong, and that Shinichi has disappeared. And in episode 2, she shows Shinichi what a colossal jerk he's been. She started out being the strength of the duo - both morally and physically. Shinichi has plenty of brains, but his moral decisions are questionable. He clearly doesn't respect Ran's intelligence, and continually lies to her. Even if he didn't tell her that he's Conan, just telling her more of the situation, like "I was attacked after I left you at the theme park. The people who did it are really dangerous, and I need to stay under the radar until I take them down." but he can't manage even that. He needs her to be his moral center - but she doesn't need him. I think that a great story arch could have been Shinichi realizing that she doesn't need him, that it's the other way around. Coming to grips with his selfishness could bring in some great character development on his part, and it'd make Ran more of a character in her own right, not just "You must think this chick is sexy and the perfect girlfriend!"

First thing: my roommate read your quote and forced me to quote her - "Beautiful *claps*"

High-5 your roommate for me!

I have to agree, these points are extremely well-made, and in fact I think that what you said was part of the reason I used to ship them. They had good balance at the start. They bounced off of each other. They completed each other - though really, more accurately put, Ran completed Shinichi.

Yeah, I was shipping them at first too. As I got further and further into the series though, it fell out of favor for Shinichi/Shiho because their pasts make then able to relate with eachother more than they could to others. Also, less squick factor. I started shipping Sonoko/Ran because *deletes 2000 word essay about why they are perfect for eachother* er... Sonoko's outgoing personality balances Ran's slightly introverted personality. Also, Sonoko seems to have a fetish for martial artists. She cheers really enthusiastically for Ran at those tournaments... just saying...

But when I'm shipping, I don't think I'm saying, "This is what Goushou should do", I think it's more, "This would be nice to see" (a sub set of which is, "this turns me on"). Thus fanfiction/fanart/doujinshi.

Ran vs. Conan, but of Ran vs. Conan and Heiji and Agasa, and Haibara and Yukiko. Conan has an all team available and ready to fool Ran, while she's just a high school girl on her own with no real, hard evidence.

Okay, so something this made me realize is...

I can definitely get the excuse reason of "She'll be in danger!" It's still dumb, but it's an excuse plot to keep the status quo. In terms of the series, I get it.

But then there's the fact that not only is Conan making this stupid excuse, not only Agasa but also Heiji, Haibara, Yukiko, and Yuusaku. That's at least six people (if there's no one I'm forgetting). Why are they even ganging up on Ran? Why is it that not a single one of them (Haibara I get, but at this point Agasa is less convincing) question Shinichi on his choice? Hell, even HAIBARA has that one line about putting a fence around a flower and causing it to wilt, where she pretty much acknowledges that "protecting" her isn't going to do anything.

I'd love it if someone (heck, maybe Sera) came in, figured out his identity, and then just went "What the hell, man, why haven't you told her? For someone you claim to love, you don't really communicate with her, do you?"

Yeah, that bugs me a lot. All of these characters forgetting that she's a badass and needs less protecting than the one in a gradeschooler's body. Also, she's smart enough to not spill the beans and let the organization know who and where he is. It's like they get "love interest" blinders on just because Shinichi is male and supposed to protect his woman. Except Haibara. She doesn't want any more people than necessary to know about the shrinking. Also, she's in love with him and knows that the lying and secrecy is damaging his relationship with Ran, or at least is preventing it from moving forward, so she still has a chance.

Also, I find it incredibly ironic that the masked man-fortune-whatever case, one which Gosho most likely wrote to send the message that Ran's fine the way she is, that she doesn't need to change herself for Shinichi, is now regarded as the most blatant case of sexism in DC. More unintentional sexism on Gosho's part...its unfortunate.

The implication that girls should try to change according to their men's wishes bothered me a lot in that case. It wasn't resolved with, "Girls, it's okay to be yourselves!" it was resolved with, "Ran doesn't need to change, because she's already perfect for Shinichi!"