Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the culp

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Who killed Scriptwriter Tetsuyama Ganji?

Natori Mishio: Actress with PMS and a Kamen Yaiba kick
4
10%
Tanzawa Junsaku: Manager, looks like the lovechild of Afroman and Roadpizza from the last case
12
29%
Teradou Unpei: Actor, professional womanizer, closet lolicon
4
10%
Tetsuyama Ganji killed himself: extreme bloodloss from major epistaxis perhaps?
0
No votes
Bathhouse owner with slicked back hair.
0
No votes
Ai and Ayumi who schemed to get Conan into the bath with them
16
39%
The boss of the Black Organization
3
7%
Other: please describe
2
5%
 
Total votes: 41
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by James Rye »

Pretztailfan95 wrote:
baka1412 wrote: Omg, Conan is so GAY...

They're talking about the Girls body, and here he is talking about dead body... I'm worried about this boy future...
I so laughed about that. It's hilarious! Conan's an idiot. XD
That´s called survival instinct. ;D
If he would admitt he saw them nude, Ai would find a way to make him suffer like hell and i think it´s kind of funny to think he planed to say it in such a innocent way to get the suspicion away from him. :D

Of cource the other way that he really didn´t care that he ashamed Ayumi and Ai is also funny (and kinda natural given his geekness rather to look at a dead old man´s body then of the ones of little kids ;D ) but a bit mean of his that he doesn´t care for the feelings of the poor girls. XD
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Tommyclaw »

Hmm, interesting case...

I first tought that maybe the old man the employees saw was a fake (one of the suspects in disguise or something like that), and the real one was killed the day before and left in the bath, and that would also explain why he was found in the women's bath. (men's and women's bath are changed every day)
But then the time of the death doesn't match, and it would be difficult to hide the disguise, so i guess that's impossible...
Last edited by Tommyclaw on February 10th, 2010, 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Pretztailfan95 »

James Rye wrote:
Pretztailfan95 wrote:
baka1412 wrote: Omg, Conan is so GAY...

They're talking about the Girls body, and here he is talking about dead body... I'm worried about this boy future...
I so laughed about that. It's hilarious! Conan's an idiot. XD
That´s called survival instinct. ;D
If he would admitt he saw them nude, Ai would find a way to make him suffer like hell and i think it´s kind of funny to think he planed to say it in such a innocent way to get the suspicion away from him. :D

Of cource the other way that he really didn´t care that he ashamed Ayumi and Ai is also funny (and kinda natural given his geekness rather to look at a dead old man´s body then of the ones of little kids ;D ) but a bit mean of his that he doesn´t care for the feelings of the poor girls. XD
Either that or he really did not understand. Just like he doesn't whenever Ai hints that she has feelings for him. Especially the "I'm up against a dolphin" comment she made in 31.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by mangaluva »

Pretztailfan95 wrote:
James Rye wrote:
Pretztailfan95 wrote:
baka1412 wrote: Omg, Conan is so GAY...

They're talking about the Girls body, and here he is talking about dead body... I'm worried about this boy future...
I so laughed about that. It's hilarious! Conan's an idiot. XD
That´s called survival instinct. ;D
If he would admitt he saw them nude, Ai would find a way to make him suffer like hell and i think it´s kind of funny to think he planed to say it in such a innocent way to get the suspicion away from him. :D

Of cource the other way that he really didn´t care that he ashamed Ayumi and Ai is also funny (and kinda natural given his geekness rather to look at a dead old man´s body then of the ones of little kids ;D ) but a bit mean of his that he doesn´t care for the feelings of the poor girls. XD
Either that or he really did not understand. Just like he doesn't whenever Ai hints that she has feelings for him. Especially the "I'm up against a dolphin" comment she made in 31.
...why does he have to be so dense when it comes to girls? XDXD I guess, despite being a genius, he IS still a teenage boy... :P
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

I'm really late with an attempt at the explanation this time, but real life got in the way. I feel like I did a pretty crummy job with this so please think of contradictions, details I missed, and logical trails which I may have not completely followed to their conclusions. (despoilered for searching purposes...)

Only one person crossed the bridge in the morning at 4:43 AM. The time of death was around 5AM (probably earlier). If the heat was going to throw off the time of death, it would make it seem like it occurred earlier than it did. Given that the timeframe is probably close to exact, I doubt the heat plays a role. Conan and friends uncovered the body sometime between ten till five and five sharp. There would be little time to dispose of much evidence.
The other party in this case would have had to camp out all night behind the bath. Conan didn't hear anyone jump into the lake, but would he have heard the sound of someone throwing something into the lake which would have made a quieter splash?

Regarding room keys, someone planning to wait out all night would probably keep their room key with them. It would seem strange to leave the key with reception late at night, and the reception would remember if that person didn't pick up the key again, yet didn't check out.  

The person who waited out
There are several facts which collectively hint that Tetsuyama Ganji was the one who waited out.
Tetsuyama Ganji was already naked over by the bath. Someone with muscle pain to the point of having difficulty walking would probably take their time removing their clothes. Also, normally you are supposed to shower thoroughly before you enter the hot spring. None of the shower heads are on.
For the floating match sticks, two people are suspect: Teradou Unpei and the screenwriter, Tetsuyama Ganji, who uses a pipe. Pipe smokers tend to prefer matches although some use lighters. There isn't any evidence like burns or smoky smells that indicate that something large was burnt, so the matches were probably used for smoking. Teradou Unpei is probably a heavy smoker given the state of his ashtray. If cigarette butts float for at least a short period of time, then their absence would appear to implicate Tetsuyama Ganji as the person who waited out.
Edit: The tea bottle filled with water may have been Tetsuyama Ganji's. Remember Agasa'a bath gadget commented on the health benefits of drinking the water. Perhaps Tetsuyama Ganji' who had injured his muscle (very vague injury), was intending to reap those benefits? This may also help explain why he waited out or at least wanted to get to the onsen first: he wanted clean water that no one had bathed in?
Finally there is Tetsuyama Ganji's strange appearance. He was wearing his towel as a muffler, and did not look particularly excited as expected of someone going to do something perverted. The screenwriter intended to meet the actress Natori Mishio which would explain why he would choose to go to the women's bath. However, all the suspects likely knew of the plan, Tanzawa Junsaku being Natori's manager and Teradou Unpei from eavesdropping. I think it is likely one of the other suspects disguised as him instead knowing he was already waiting over at the baths.
As for why Tetsuyama decided to wait out, most likely it is for a perverted reason, but if someone took his room key while he was bathing so they had access to his room to get materials necessary for disguise, then it is possible that he may have noticed his key was missing and decided to wait out rather than get reception to break him in. Maybe the killer left him a note pretending to be Natori Mishio agreeing to sneak out sometime during the night and to wait. I'm not really sure.

Stuff the killer would have had to worry about which create potential clues.

The killer who disguised as Tetsuyama Ganji would need several articles. He needed a towel as a muffler, a beanie hat, spare glasses, and a heavy jacket as described by the people who let him across. The killer would be wearing his normal clothing underneath. If he was carrying a murder weapon it would have to be something which could be hidden under his clothes.
The murderer may also be wearing the screenwriter's ring for added convincing effect. The screenwriter did not seem to be wearing it in chapter 722 even though it was mentioned he liked showing it off. http://dctp.ws/V70-Reader/V70-4Read/V70 ... 22_011.png
When the killer arrived at the bath where Tetsuyama was probably nude and waiting thinking Natori was coming, the killer likely used one of the nearby bathing stones or something they brought with them as the weapon. After killing the screenwriter, murderer positioned the body so it appeared to be hit by a rock, applied some soap to the screenwriter's heel, and then left the soap nearby.  
The killer would have had to touch the soap. Soap does take fingerprints if it is wet and soft. It may also leave residue on killer's hands. The police should examine bar of soap for fingerprints, and the suspects for soap residue, especially on their heels. Also soap will generally deform if stepped on and leave scrapings on the ground. If the killer intended to mimic these scene accurately the soap bar should have gouges and possibly also the killer's heelprint.
The killer then probably used the water filled tea bottle which may have been prepared ahead of time and smuggled across the bridge or left by Tetsuyama who was waiting out to dump water on the victim to wash away unnatural bloodstains. The murderer may have also used the water bottle to clean themselves off as well. I feel like I haven't thought enough about the tea bottle. Edit: I now think the tea bottle was Genji's. See above for details.
The murderer would have had to change out of the top layer of his clothes, and dispose of the older set of clothes belonging to Tetsuyama who waited out the night as it would expose the trick if two sets of clothes were left. The likely location of the clothes is in the lake nearby the bath on the veranda side. Something heavy was probably used to sink the clothes quickly, perhaps a bathing rock or the murder weapon.
The murderer would have probably needed a towel or something in order to keep their fingerprints from being on various items. This towel may have blood on it so it may have been sunken along with the older set of clothes.
Given the short time frame available to cleanup, the murderer may not have had time to rifle through the pockets to find everything, so there may be personally identifying objects like the screenwriter's room key, or his pipe, or tobacco supplies which would identify the clothing as Tetsuyama's. Also, if the screenwriter was waiting outside and then came in through the veranda entrance to avoid being seen, he would have left fingerprints on the sliding door and probably around where he was sitting down waiting as well.


All the suspects are professional actors and thus I am going to assume have adequate disguising and acting skills to impersonate the victim.

Natori Mishio
She gave her room key to the people at the front desk. If she woke up when she claimed to, then she probably dropped off her key between five and five thirty. This would seem to exonerate her because she was on the wrong side of the bridge when only one person, someone who looked like the victim, could cross over.
She probably didn't drop off her key early, disguise as the victim, and then cross over because the reception would remember her since the baths aren't open yet. Many hotel receptions have cameras mounted by them, so there is a chance to check her alibi. It might be possible to drop off her key while dressed as the victim to make it seem like she left her key later.
Natori Mishio would have the hardest time disguising as the victim because she would need padding and potentially also a mask. A makeup kit and towel would be necessary to remove the makeup she was wearing if she disguised as the screenwriter. Does the makeup kit include a mirror I wonder? She would probably need one to make sure she removed the makeup thoroughly which would be time consuming. She would need to dispose of the towel if she did remove her makeup because the makeup left on her towel would be suspicious. She may have brought multiple towels though. The towel could also be used to keep her from leaving fingerprints on something.
Also Tanzawa Junsaku noted she had been missing from her room for a long time, but the timeframe she was missing isn't clear.

Teradou Unpei

It is strange that he brought cigarettes yet didn't bring matches to go with them. Also he shows off the items he is holding with one hand, his right. I don't have much to say about him really. It would be easier for a man to disguise as the victim.

Tanzawa Junsaku
He is the only suspect where it is definitely known to be on the hotel side after the baths were closed for the evening. As with Unpei, it would be easier for a man to disguise as the victim.

Despite what he said about being right handed, Tanzawa Junsaku seems to be left handed based on his interaction with the vending machine. The golf glove in his possession would cover up his dominant hand, but it was found in his room. I'm not sure if he would have had time to go back and do something with it. In any case, he may have used a towel instead to prevent fingerprints.
Getting change for the drink machines from the hotel reception may be a way of confirming his alibi.
Incidentally he is wearing a ring on his left hand middle finger (when showing what he had in his pockets) at the crime while he was not wearing one thirty minutes earlier when purchasing drinks. There isn't a stone visible, but he may have turned the ring around so the stone doesn't show. Also, if he is left handed, he may have touched the bloody body with his left hand to position it better. Blood may get stuck under the ring so even if he washed his hands, there may be a significant luminol reaction from the inner side of the band or his finger where it covers.
He also attempted to get close to the corpse. Conan held him back, but he may have done so to offload a critical piece of evidence, like the ring?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on June 15th, 2013, 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the culprit!

Post by sstimson »

I still holding to the idea of the heat doing him in. The current Manga kind of goes both ways. One saying He died by a head wound and the other part I will wait until they put up 723 in the Manga reading area. As for it being the lady I think that is too obvious. Someone I think is framing her. Again a key clue appears for my theory in the as of yet unreleased chapter.

But if your really want to know look in the spoiler
Spoiler:
Cell Phone. I believe he set up the scene by maybe making a door lock if closed and be unable to unlock or open it from one side. Get the Victim in that room. Tell him to enjoy the heat. To better enjoy the heat he need to close the door. When he does this he can not get out. The heat makes him faint and he hits his head on the rocks. Nothing else needed. The only one to do this needs a way to call the victim and so the cell phone.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

sstimson wrote: I still holding to the idea of the heat doing him in. The current Manga kind of goes both ways. One saying He died by a head wound and the other part I will wait until they put up 723 in the Manga reading area. As for it being the lady I think that is too obvious. Someone I think is framing her. Again a key clue appears for my theory in the as of yet unreleased chapter.

But if your really want to know look in the spoiler

Cell Phone. I believe he set up the scene by maybe making a door lock if closed and be unable to unlock or open it from one side. Get the Victim in that room. Tell him to enjoy the heat. To better enjoy the heat he need to close the door. When he does this he can not get out. The heat makes him faint and he hits his head on the rocks. Nothing else needed. The only one to do this needs a way to call the victim and so the cell phone.
I think the ventilation is probably adequate or other people would be collapsing left and right during the course of the day. Also Ai, Ayumi, and Conan would have noticed it was excessively hot upon entering. The room is large and one wall is large glass sliding doors which help dissipate the heat. Most importantly, if it was really hot and the air saturated with moisture -conditions necessary for the heat stroke you mentioned- the sliding doors would be dripping wet from condensation. You wouldn't be able to see out of them. Finally, the veranda sliding door cannot be locked either. If the victim was the only who crossed the bridge, what did the culprit do with whatever item had to be used to manually hold the veranda door shut without being seen by Conan or the other detective boys guarding the body and the bath room?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 13th, 2010, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by caribou »

everything ties up with the theory that the victim waited around either in the women's bath (i.e. the men's bath the previous day) or at the veranda outside, and then the murderer disguising as the victim to enter the baths early and kill the victim. match cinders on the lake surface are consistent since the victim smokes a pipe and would have smoked the time away. also if it was the murderer that the kids saw, then the fact that Conan saw the manager at 4.30am is not a working alibi. so who was the murderer...? :S

i don't think the soap would be of much help... don't know much about forensics but i don't think you can get a clear print off a wet bar of soap, and i don't think it's soft enough so leave a significant imprint/indent. i dont think a wet bar of soap is necessarily that soft. (i have never stepped on a bar of soap and slipped before though, thank goodness, so i dont know.)
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Tanzawa Junsaku
Spoiler:
He is the only suspect where it is definitely known to be on the hotel side after the baths were closed for the evening. As with Unpei, it would be easier for a man to disguise as the victim.

Despite what he said about being right handed, Tanzawa Junsaku seems to be left handed based on his interaction with the vending machine. The golf glove in his possession would cover up his dominant hand, but it was found in his room. I’m not sure if he would have had time to go back and do something with it. In any case, he may have used a towel instead to prevent fingerprints.
Getting change for the drink machines from the hotel reception may be a way of confirming his alibi.
Incidentally he is wearing a ring on his left hand middle finger (when showing what he had in his pockets) at the crime while he was not wearing one thirty minutes earlier when purchasing drinks. There isn’t a stone visible, but he may have turned the ring around so the stone doesn’t show. Also, if he is left handed, he may have touched the bloody body with his left hand to position it better. Blood may get stuck under the ring so even if he washed his hands, there may be a significant luminol reaction from the inner side of the band or his finger where it covers.
He also attempted to get close to the corpse. Conan held him back, but he may have done so to offload a critical piece of evidence, like the ring?
what you said about the ring kind of convinces me that he's the one. :/ i think maybe what Conan was talking about in the last page was, he got so immersed in his role as the screenwriter that he forgot to take off the ring (and now he's trying to hide it in his pocket?).

anyway there are 3 points about this chapter that still confuse me:
1. The green tea bottle. what's the use of preparing water in the bottle? you could just clean the blood away using the bath water, and likely would have looked more natural too.
2. The things that the suspects are carrying - what is the significance of this, is it even a clue?
3. The monkey-bar trick from the movie - i don't think Gosho would include something so random if it's not gona be a clue. but I don't know how it's relevant, really.

Edit:
baka1412 wrote: Omg, Conan is so GAY...

They're talking about the Girls body, and here he is talking about dead body... I'm worried about this boy future...
correct me if im wrong (cos im not a teenage boy) but i would be more worried if Conan was more concerned about the girls' bodies. sure he has the body of an elementary school kid now, but he has the mind of a high school teenager, and surely he wouldn't get so excited over seeing 2 little girls naked? :S i think that would be kinda pedophilic actually. and he is such a mystery freak, it is natural that he'd be a lot more concerned with the dead body than the naked 6-year-old girls.
Last edited by caribou on February 13th, 2010, 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

caribou wrote: anyway there are 3 points about this chapter that still confuse me:
1. The green tea bottle. what's the use of preparing water in the bottle? you could just clean the blood away using the bath water, and likely would have looked more natural too.
I think I understand the tea bottle now. See my above post under the person who waited out.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Misztina »

You are totaly right about the ring Chekhov. Nice deduction again. ^^

Man... I really wished it wasn't Mr. Obvious. >.< Oh well,maybe next time.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Schillok »

Well, yeah I agree to what has been said about this case.

The man the Detective Boys saw on the bridge was not the victim. The victim probably hid on one of the platforms on the sea over the night (and smoked to pass time, which would explain the matches in the water - the murder had to remove them so the police wouldn't find them and immediately know someone hid on the lake, or Ganji himself tossed them into the water).
Well... the question is why did he stay there? He could enter the bath earlier than all the other guests so even if he wanted to do something indecent (like hiding with view on the womans bath) he could have done so without staying outside. And where did his pipe go if he really smoked to pass time?

It was probably not the actress since she gave her key to the reception - she would have to leave the bath over the bridge and return after giving away her keys - too much danger to be noticed.

That leaves the two man: Either the male actor, butthere isn't much pointing at him though...  Maybe he took some of the matches which Ganji did not throw into the water and hid them in his ashtray... Maybe Conan was talking about a lighter in his pocket which would show that he doesn't use matches to light his cigarettes. On the other hand it is much more likely that he was not the murderer.

Yeah, the ring on the managers left hand is a very strong hint that he was the culprit. I would have missed while reading though.  ::)


And no, I don't think the monkey-bar trick from the movie has anything to do with the solution. They gave 2 reasons why it couldn't have been used - it is only a distraction for the readers.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by cashman_11 »

There have been a lot of 3 part cases in a row, 3 so far, so hopefully the next case is bigger.
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Schillok wrote: Well... the question is why did he stay there? He could enter the bath earlier than all the other guests so even if he wanted to do something indecent (like hiding with view on the womans bath) he could have done so without staying outside. And where did his pipe go if he really smoked to pass time?
It might have been to drink the water. Remember the tea bottle of water and Agasa's bath doll which commented on the water's health benefits when drunken. It would be kind of nasty to drink water right after all the guests got out, but maybe he decided to wait for the water to turn over. It doesn't explain why he would want to wait out all night rather than simply go early in the morning before everyone else though.
As for the pipe, it could be with the new set of clothes the murderer wore and left in the place of the old clothes, or his pipe could be at the bottom of the lake with the old set; it depends how well the murderer searched the old clothes. He didn't have much time after all to look through them.

Does anyone else really hate Teradou Unpei? He seems like a real arse. I hope he falls off the bridge or something.

cashman_11 wrote: There have been a lot of 3 part cases in a row, 3 so far, so hopefully the next case is bigger.
I'm crossing my fingers for Okiya or scar Akai. It's been about 20 chapters -about half a year- since anything regarding them has come up. The beginning of both the Vermouth and Kir plot arcs were slow at first with a lot of unrelated cases between plot points, but then they picked up a bit. Here's to wishful thinking...
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by Abs. »

I'm sure this will turn out to be insignificant, BUT!

1) Was the first bath we find our heroes at (with robo-Goemon) a mixed-gender bath?  Natori Mishio came in to presumably check to see if she could enter, and no one thought it was odd that her manager and all those other men came barging in as well.  You can see that she's dressed for the bath (which the scriptwriter was as well).

2) Teradou Unpei was there in the morning to presumably soak in the bath, but his clothing is wrong.  This isn't to say that he's suspicious since not everyone dresses in a bathrobe before going to the baths...  It's just odd.

Btw, what does the scene where Conan looks at his left palm mean?  Something about the glove, perhaps...
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Re: Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the

Post by sstimson »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
sstimson wrote: I still holding to the idea of the heat doing him in. The current Manga kind of goes both ways. One saying He died by a head wound and the other part I will wait until they put up 723 in the Manga reading area. As for it being the lady I think that is too obvious. Someone I think is framing her. Again a key clue appears for my theory in the as of yet unreleased chapter.

But if your really want to know look in the spoiler

Cell Phone. I believe he set up the scene by maybe making a door lock if closed and be unable to unlock or open it from one side. Get the Victim in that room. Tell him to enjoy the heat. To better enjoy the heat he need to close the door. When he does this he can not get out. The heat makes him faint and he hits his head on the rocks. Nothing else needed. The only one to do this needs a way to call the victim and so the cell phone.
I think the ventilation is probably adequate or other people would be collapsing left and right during the course of the day. Also Ai, Ayumi, and Conan would have noticed it was excessively hot upon entering. The room is large and one wall is large glass sliding doors which help dissipate the heat. Most importantly, if it was really hot and the air saturated with moisture -conditions necessary for the heat stroke you mentioned- the sliding doors would be dripping wet from condensation. You wouldn't be able to see out of them. Finally, the veranda sliding door cannot be locked either. If the victim was the only who crossed the bridge, what did the culprit do with whatever item had to be used to manually hold the veranda door shut without being seen by Conan or the other detective boys guarding the body and the bath room?
Let me clear things up a little. First waiting is not necessary. The killer could have set up my trap any time between the "closing" time and the time the body was found. They talked about an out side window being unlocked. All the killer needs to do is set it up so he can enter that window anytime he wants. Next We do not know for sure when the victim entered the bath. If the killer was trying to set up a time trick by pretending to be the victim for a possible alibi, then they cross the bridge and then find a way to make the costume disappear.
After the victim has entered the room by the window, the killer only needs to lock the door and then when setting up the time trick unlock it. Again Stream should do the rest. As the Victim was a smoker, it is now more likely they were not in the best of health.
I was first thinking of like a stall as it is possible that they are private baths. But again with the room completely locked that might not be necessary.  You mentioned  ventilation. It is possible also while setting up the time trick they removed what ever they used to block  the vents. 15 minutes might be enough time to make the room less stuffy. Question you mentioned the veranda door could not be locked but if I am right a simple sliding door lock would do the locking part. Again all they then need to do is at the right time is remove it and drop it in the lake. I not completely sure I agree with their time of death. I think it was likely to have been earlier. My though is the killer around 4:43 removed most the clues of how the door was locked.
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