Detective Conan 701-704 (The Jet-Black Mystery Train) Discussion Thread

[k11chi]

Yukiko did say that she put herself up for it and it was Vermouth that tried convincing Gin, Gin and Bourbon thought it was stupid too, they wouldn't have blown the entire place up if they never got the confirmation that Sherry was on the train

etc...

[dilbertschalter]

Worth noting is that at this point, the Black Organisation (minus Vermouth) are convinced that Sherry is dead, which should give her some freedom. Maybe. I hope.

Next episode will establish the new status quo.

On a different matter, the animation on this episode was really subpar. It's like they splurged the budget on the previous 3 episodes so they had to go with their F-team for this.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed this.

Spoiler: ugly

[Wakarimashita]

+ :
-The Yukiko-Vermouth interactions were great.
-The scene were Yukiko yells 'Ai-chan' was pretty good.

- :
-Mostly awful art/animation especially in the first part.
-Pretty boring music. Elevator music basically.
-Uninspired directing except for a few rares scenes.
-Some scenes were cut or reduced to almost nothing (like the Akai in the smoke scene).
-Story is pretty awful, full of holes and really underwhelming for a BO case (but that's Gosho's fault).
-'Revelation' of Bourbon is rather lame.

[DetectiveKir]

As i stated in the manga thread eons ago, this case just doesn't make any sense, first of all, the Murder relies so many factors that could have easily gone wrong that its too hard to believe its even possible.

And the whole BO battle could have easily been solved with antiperspirant..sorry couldn't resist
let me repeat, the whole BO battle just doesn't make any sense, here's a list:

1)The original plan involved yukiko dressing up as sherry and wearing bullet proof chest, what if they shot her in her head?

2)Ignoring the whole "how can kid disguise so quickly" point, You'd think a person such as kid, who just in case something happens hid his glider in the storage room, would be able to escape conan without having to agree to disguise as sherry.

3) Trains have fire extinguishers, if a fire starts there will be people trying to put it off, so Bourbon wouldn't be alone in the last car with sherry and wouldn't be able to perform his plan

4)The whole mind reading thing was also cheap, everything could have gone differently that it doesn't make sense to base a plan on assumptions.

and that's all i have for now.

1. I don't think that was ever their actual plan, because Conan wouldn't put his mom in a situation that dire. I think they assumed Vermouth would check her room and find the items, which would make her belive that it was their main course of action. Which would give Conan and Akai time, to read and react to the situation. That's why she intentionally ran into Vermouth in the hallway, so she could bait her into snooping around her room.

2. It's not that he couldn't get away from Conan, If you haven't noticed they seem to have a mutual respect for each other. Conan has let Kid get away, when he's returning things or helping people out, whiles Kid has helped Conan out on different cases. So Kid wasn't just going to deny Conan's request, that would be completely out of character. Hell, it would even be out of character for Kaito kid in Magic Kaito, to simply deny someone's request knowing that a person might die.

3. The only people that didn't make sense to leave in that instant were the conductors. Especilly since the people involved in the case, should all have a fear of fire. All Bourbon had to do was yell fire, because the smoke was originating from so many different places, if I understood correctly. Vermouth didn't just set it up in one place. If it's already engulfing the whole train, one fire extinguisher isn't gonna be nearly enough.

4. Vermouth's plan in 345 relied on assuming the Fbi's movements, and assuming Conan would go towards the murder rather than protecting Ai. The whole concept behind Clash of Red and Black relied on predicting Gin seeing through the fake trucks, rather than just trying to apprehend all of them. Hell, even 425 relied on Akai assuming that the Bo, would eventually go to Mouri's detective agency. The bottom line is all of the Bo clashes rely on reading their opponent on both sides, because we're talking about extremely intelligent players like Vermouth, Gin, Bourbon, Conan and Akai.


The only thing you might have a point on is number 3, everything else just seems like really weird points. Especially 4, which is a big aspect of any Conan vs BO clash. It's not that they're ever just clashing with guns, it's a clash of wits and prediction, with lives at stake

I agree with DetectiveKir to a large degree, maybe even completely.

1.) Conan knows the BO's modus operandi by now. They act like a surgeon with a scapel if it suits them, but they don't care if they have to take out a large group of people to achieve their goals. Given that Gin's ridiculous plan was to blow up the whole train station, it was more than reasonable to assume that they would just blow up the train. Nevertheless Conan put himself, Haibara, Ran!, his mother, Agasa and the DB on the train. I can't be the only one who thinks that is freaking stupid. Especially when their reward is sooo small. Hurray: the BO thinks Sherry is dead. I don't think that this justifies the risks at all.

1) I think Conan was probably banking on the fact that if Bourbon was on the train, then there's no way the Bo would destroy it. Also I think a big factor Conan might have been unaware of, was that Vermouth would be involved in the operation. Because now that I think about it, there was no way for Conan to anticipate Vermouth coming on the train disguised, unless the Fbi is still keeping wiretaps in her house. The reason why that's important is there's no reason for Conan to belive any other Bo member including Bourbon could identify Haibara in her child form. So if Bourbon logically shouldn't recognize Ai in her child form, then the Bo wouldn't destroy the train, because they don't like useless casualties(Episode 425). Vermouth's relationship with Bourbon, is something that Conan shouldn't have been aware of, since Vermouth tends to act independently in everything she does.

3) I think Magic Kaito has made it clear that Kaito would rather observe a target area, when it's populated rather than when it's empty. The reason for that is he has to know who the figures are in the area, who he could potentially disguise as to get an advantage. Kid can't randomly disguise without knowing the faces/outfits of the people he's gonna disguise as. Remember his original case where he had to take Ran's dress about a week prior to the actual heist? So if it was empty he wouldn't know the faces or outfits of the conductors. I always belived his plan was to observe the conductors of each car, and be prepared to disguise as one of them, for maximum mobility. As they'd be the only ones that would still be aboard the train during the heist. I think the conductors outfit trick that the culprit pulled off was really close to what Kid was planning to do.

4. It's not that they were gonna blow up the train on a hunch. I'm pretty sure Gin was only planning to use the C4 after Bourbon confirmed if Sherry was on the train. If she wasn't he was most likely planning to remove the bombs at the stop. Both Vermouth's smoke, and Gin's bombs would be activated remotely, and depended on the confirmation that Sherry was actually on board the train. A big thing about the Bo, is they're very good at avoiding useless casualties

[KnightusMaximus]

As i stated in the manga thread eons ago, this case just doesn't make any sense, first of all, the Murder relies so many factors that could have easily gone wrong that its too hard to believe its even possible.

And the whole BO battle could have easily been solved with antiperspirant..sorry couldn't resist
let me repeat, the whole BO battle just doesn't make any sense, here's a list:

1)The original plan involved yukiko dressing up as sherry and wearing bullet proof chest, what if they shot her in her head?

2)Ignoring the whole "how can kid disguise so quickly" point, You'd think a person such as kid, who just in case something happens hid his glider in the storage room, would be able to escape conan without having to agree to disguise as sherry.

3) Trains have fire extinguishers, if a fire starts there will be people trying to put it off, so Bourbon wouldn't be alone in the last car with sherry and wouldn't be able to perform his plan

4)The whole mind reading thing was also cheap, everything could have gone differently that it doesn't make sense to base a plan on assumptions.

and that's all i have for now.

1. I don't think that was ever their actual plan, because Conan wouldn't put his mom in a situation that dire. I think they assumed Vermouth would check her room and find the items, which would make her belive that it was their main course of action. Which would give Conan and Akai time, to read and react to the situation. That's why she intentionally ran into Vermouth in the hallway, so she could bait her into snooping around her room.

2. It's not that he couldn't get away from Conan, If you haven't noticed they seem to have a mutual respect for each other. Conan has let Kid get away, when he's returning things or helping people out, whiles Kid has helped Conan out on different cases. So Kid wasn't just going to deny Conan's request, that would be completely out of character. Hell, it would even be out of character for Kaito kid in Magic Kaito, to simply deny someone's request knowing that a person might die.

3. The only people that didn't make sense to leave in that instant were the conductors. Especilly since the people involved in the case, should all have a fear of fire. All Bourbon had to do was yell fire, because the smoke was originating from so many different places, if I understood correctly. Vermouth didn't just set it up in one place. If it's already engulfing the whole train, one fire extinguisher isn't gonna be nearly enough.

4. Vermouth's plan in 345 relied on assuming the Fbi's movements, and assuming Conan would go towards the murder rather than protecting Ai. The whole concept behind Clash of Red and Black relied on predicting Gin seeing through the fake trucks, rather than just trying to apprehend all of them. Hell, even 425 relied on Akai assuming that the Bo, would eventually go to Mouri's detective agency. The bottom line is all of the Bo clashes rely on reading their opponent on both sides, because we're talking about extremely intelligent players like Vermouth, Gin, Bourbon, Conan and Akai.


The only thing you might have a point on is number 3, everything else just seems like really weird points. Especially 4, which is a big aspect of any Conan vs BO clash. It's not that they're ever just clashing with guns, it's a clash of wits and prediction, with lives at stake

I agree with DetectiveKir to a large degree, maybe even completely.

1.) Conan knows the BO's modus operandi by now. They act like a surgeon with a scapel if it suits them, but they don't care if they have to take out a large group of people to achieve their goals. Given that Gin's ridiculous plan was to blow up the whole train station, it was more than reasonable to assume that they would just blow up the train. Nevertheless Conan put himself, Haibara, Ran!, his mother, Agasa and the DB on the train. I can't be the only one who thinks that is freaking stupid. Especially when their reward is sooo small. Hurray: the BO thinks Sherry is dead. I don't think that this justifies the risks at all.

1) I think Conan was probably banking on the fact that if Bourbon was on the train, then there's no way the Bo would destroy it. Also I think a big factor Conan might have been unaware of, was that Vermouth would be involved in the operation. Because now that I think about it, there was no way for Conan to anticipate Vermouth coming on the train disguised, unless the Fbi is still keeping wiretaps in her house. The reason why that's important is there's no reason for Conan to belive any other Bo member including Bourbon could identify Haibara in her child form. So if Bourbon logically shouldn't recognize Ai in her child form, then the Bo wouldn't destroy the train, because they don't like useless casualties(Episode 425). Vermouth's relationship with Bourbon, is something that Conan shouldn't have been aware of, since Vermouth tends to act independently in everything she does.

3) I think Magic Kaito has made it clear that Kaito would rather observe a target area, when it's populated rather than when it's empty. The reason for that is he has to know who the figures are in the area, who he could potentially disguise as to get an advantage. Kid can't randomly disguise without knowing the faces/outfits of the people he's gonna disguise as. Remember his original case where he had to take Ran's dress about a week prior to the actual heist? So if it was empty he wouldn't know the faces or outfits of the conductors. I always belived his plan was to observe the conductors of each car, and be prepared to disguise as one of them, for maximum mobility. As they'd be the only ones that would still be aboard the train during the heist. I think the conductors outfit trick that the culprit pulled off was really close to what Kid was planning to do.

4. It's not that they were gonna blow up the train on a hunch. I'm pretty sure Gin was only planning to use the C4 after Bourbon confirmed if Sherry was on the train. If she wasn't he was most likely planning to remove the bombs at the stop. Both Vermouth's smoke, and Gin's bombs would be activated remotely, and depended on the confirmation that Sherry was actually on board the train. A big thing about the Bo, is they're very good at avoiding useless casualties

One of the rationales Gin gave in the manga for not worrying about the casualties was:

"It's good for us that the boss of the Suzuki Corporation and the top of the Aichi prefecture police force are here... they'll misunderstand the whole situation as an attempt on their lives."

One of multiple lines cut for time.

Also in terms of anime/manga differences, someone referred to the fact that we knew Yukiko was faking the "Ai-chan!" scream right away. Here's the respective manga page, including a couple scene cuts at the bottom of the page:

[yamiangie]

I liked the bit with Okiya at the end better here than in the manga because the anime is in color. I also get a kick out of seeing Jii-chan walk past Vermouth in the background after she realizes someone else was Sherry.

[DetectiveKir]

As i stated in the manga thread eons ago, this case just doesn't make any sense, first of all, the Murder relies so many factors that could have easily gone wrong that its too hard to believe its even possible.

And the whole BO battle could have easily been solved with antiperspirant..sorry couldn't resist
let me repeat, the whole BO battle just doesn't make any sense, here's a list:

1)The original plan involved yukiko dressing up as sherry and wearing bullet proof chest, what if they shot her in her head?

2)Ignoring the whole "how can kid disguise so quickly" point, You'd think a person such as kid, who just in case something happens hid his glider in the storage room, would be able to escape conan without having to agree to disguise as sherry.

3) Trains have fire extinguishers, if a fire starts there will be people trying to put it off, so Bourbon wouldn't be alone in the last car with sherry and wouldn't be able to perform his plan

4)The whole mind reading thing was also cheap, everything could have gone differently that it doesn't make sense to base a plan on assumptions.

and that's all i have for now.

1. I don't think that was ever their actual plan, because Conan wouldn't put his mom in a situation that dire. I think they assumed Vermouth would check her room and find the items, which would make her belive that it was their main course of action. Which would give Conan and Akai time, to read and react to the situation. That's why she intentionally ran into Vermouth in the hallway, so she could bait her into snooping around her room.

2. It's not that he couldn't get away from Conan, If you haven't noticed they seem to have a mutual respect for each other. Conan has let Kid get away, when he's returning things or helping people out, whiles Kid has helped Conan out on different cases. So Kid wasn't just going to deny Conan's request, that would be completely out of character. Hell, it would even be out of character for Kaito kid in Magic Kaito, to simply deny someone's request knowing that a person might die.

3. The only people that didn't make sense to leave in that instant were the conductors. Especilly since the people involved in the case, should all have a fear of fire. All Bourbon had to do was yell fire, because the smoke was originating from so many different places, if I understood correctly. Vermouth didn't just set it up in one place. If it's already engulfing the whole train, one fire extinguisher isn't gonna be nearly enough.

4. Vermouth's plan in 345 relied on assuming the Fbi's movements, and assuming Conan would go towards the murder rather than protecting Ai. The whole concept behind Clash of Red and Black relied on predicting Gin seeing through the fake trucks, rather than just trying to apprehend all of them. Hell, even 425 relied on Akai assuming that the Bo, would eventually go to Mouri's detective agency. The bottom line is all of the Bo clashes rely on reading their opponent on both sides, because we're talking about extremely intelligent players like Vermouth, Gin, Bourbon, Conan and Akai.


The only thing you might have a point on is number 3, everything else just seems like really weird points. Especially 4, which is a big aspect of any Conan vs BO clash. It's not that they're ever just clashing with guns, it's a clash of wits and prediction, with lives at stake

I agree with DetectiveKir to a large degree, maybe even completely.

1.) Conan knows the BO's modus operandi by now. They act like a surgeon with a scapel if it suits them, but they don't care if they have to take out a large group of people to achieve their goals. Given that Gin's ridiculous plan was to blow up the whole train station, it was more than reasonable to assume that they would just blow up the train. Nevertheless Conan put himself, Haibara, Ran!, his mother, Agasa and the DB on the train. I can't be the only one who thinks that is freaking stupid. Especially when their reward is sooo small. Hurray: the BO thinks Sherry is dead. I don't think that this justifies the risks at all.

1) I think Conan was probably banking on the fact that if Bourbon was on the train, then there's no way the Bo would destroy it. Also I think a big factor Conan might have been unaware of, was that Vermouth would be involved in the operation. Because now that I think about it, there was no way for Conan to anticipate Vermouth coming on the train disguised, unless the Fbi is still keeping wiretaps in her house. The reason why that's important is there's no reason for Conan to belive any other Bo member including Bourbon could identify Haibara in her child form. So if Bourbon logically shouldn't recognize Ai in her child form, then the Bo wouldn't destroy the train, because they don't like useless casualties(Episode 425). Vermouth's relationship with Bourbon, is something that Conan shouldn't have been aware of, since Vermouth tends to act independently in everything she does.

3) I think Magic Kaito has made it clear that Kaito would rather observe a target area, when it's populated rather than when it's empty. The reason for that is he has to know who the figures are in the area, who he could potentially disguise as to get an advantage. Kid can't randomly disguise without knowing the faces/outfits of the people he's gonna disguise as. Remember his original case where he had to take Ran's dress about a week prior to the actual heist? So if it was empty he wouldn't know the faces or outfits of the conductors. I always belived his plan was to observe the conductors of each car, and be prepared to disguise as one of them, for maximum mobility. As they'd be the only ones that would still be aboard the train during the heist. I think the conductors outfit trick that the culprit pulled off was really close to what Kid was planning to do.

4. It's not that they were gonna blow up the train on a hunch. I'm pretty sure Gin was only planning to use the C4 after Bourbon confirmed if Sherry was on the train. If she wasn't he was most likely planning to remove the bombs at the stop. Both Vermouth's smoke, and Gin's bombs would be activated remotely, and depended on the confirmation that Sherry was actually on board the train. A big thing about the Bo, is they're very good at avoiding useless casualties

If the yukiko plan wasn't the real plan, then what was it? It can't involve katio since that means conan is certain that kid would show up, and is certain that he will be able to deduce who he is, and is certain that he will agree to help.

And i do agree that all BO clashes involved mindreading games, but this one was just too much.

The Yukiko plan was always a diversion to create time, for Conan and Akai to figure out the best course of action based on the situation and the actions of the Bo members on board. I don't think there was ever a set plan from the get go, because they only anticipated Bourbon being on board and not Vermouth. They had the clear disadvantege because they couldn't be sure of how many members would actually be on board the train, until they figured out everyone's identity.

[DetectiveKir]

Well to figure this out, I need more info on just how much Conan knew before he boarded the train. That's because Conan's whole attitude seemed to change when he got the text messege in the second episode, so I'm not really sure,he understood the situation before coming on the train. His attitude prior to the text seemed extremly laid back, he was excited for the mystery quiz and all of that.

[kkslider5552000]

"OKIYA SUBARU'S POINTLESS CAMEOS EPISODE 31 (Dramatic Eye Opening)"

They can change it for the DVD.

[Roguish Charm]

Sherry is officially dead in BO's eyes, only Vermouth knows the truth VERY AWESOME !!
Haibara's finally free except from the pain of losing her sister and parents for a stupid drug

We now know who is Bourbon, sera, Subaru, scared dude for real

what is up with Gin picturing Sherry naked again in 701

I really hope that the old guy who exposed Akai to the BO is the rival for Haibara's sister's heart: Amoru ! It would just be super !

I want to see Haibara not forgiving one millimeter the guy who just saved her life on the train as he promised: I'll guard you with my life, princess

[Akai Shuuichi]

Would someone rate 704 as better than 345? I won't, just curious.

[dilbertschalter]

I think 345 is -by far- the most overrated Conan episode/case, but I'd still put it above this pile of mediocrity.

[DetectiveKir]

I'd put it as the second best Bo Arc/Special of the series behind 345. Definitely the best Bo arc post 345, the assassination special(425) was good, but it didn't do much for me, whiles Clash of Red and Black was really good, but wasn't spectacular in my opinion. This arc however blew away my expectations, and really managed to amaze me even after I was already spoiled on Bourbon's identity(As a result of the Wiki). To confirm that I wasn't just basing this off the "What have you done for me lately affect", I watched all of the arcs/specials earlier today. Mystery Train (701-704), A Dual Mystery (345), and Reunion with the Black org (176-178) really stood out to me above the rest.


Anyhow on topic, now that I think about it Conan should know Bourbon's identity ever since the events in Detective Nocturne. That's because Akai saw Bourbon's unmasked face, so he should have recognized him considering they were rivals( Which is why he probally went back into the car). So assuming him and Conan share info, Conan should have been positive from that point on who Bourbon was.

[Wakarimashita]

I think 345 is -by far- the most overrated Conan episode/case, but I'd still put it above this pile of mediocrity.

^ This.

The 176-178 case is far better than both though.

[DetectiveKir]

I think 345 is -by far- the most overrated Conan episode/case, but I'd still put it above this pile of mediocrity.

^ This.

The 176-178 case is far better than both.

I love that case even though I did have a few minor issues with parts of it.

1. The Bo could have easily handled both Ai and the Murder, if they simply let Vermouth handle the murder whiles Pisco handled Sherry. With Pisco and Vermouth there it made no sense to put Pisco in charge of killing both Sherry and the guy they were assassinating.

2. Conan casually announces his name in front of Pisco,after his deduction, even though he had no way of knowing Pisco wouldn't tell anyone about him, or harm his friends. It just didn't make sense to me at the time, unless Conan knew Gin would somehow kill Pisco. Even if he was banking on him getting arrested, he could have easily communicated the name "Edowgawa Conan" to Gin,Vodka or Vermouth.