Detective Conan 701-704 (The Jet-Black Mystery Train) Discussion Thread

[DetectiveKir]

Damn im at the part where the dude talks about the person who killed his wife in the fire and starts crying the OST they use is MAD, it's not "sobby" or just some song but still very powerful, gonna go get some food here

Anyone heard the OST after ending with the flashback with Kaito as woman

Next episode is going to be good.

This wasn't the conclusion of the Bourbon arc? I assumed it was

[k11chi]

Damn im at the part where the dude talks about the person who killed his wife in the fire and starts crying the OST they use is MAD, it's not "sobby" or just some song but still very powerful, gonna go get some food here

Anyone heard the OST after ending with the flashback with Kaito as woman

Next episode is going to be good.

This wasn't the conclusion of the Bourbon arc? I assumed it was

This arc is just Mystery Train arc it was around chapter 830s, the real BO arc was Detectives Nocturne, Bourbon won't disappear... quite the opposite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Y2VirGNi4

[DetectiveKir]

O well I guess it would make sense for him to stick around a bit longer, considering that no one should know about him being Bourbon unless they're directly involved with Sherry. So If conan says anything then he'd be revealing his involvement. And I also belive he's smart enough to figure out if the Fbi is suddenly watching him.

[k11chi]

Bourbon is very smart, he's supposedly the best investigator shown in BO so far. The Anime just left the cover out

"Codename: BOURBON"
"An investigator terrifyingly proficient in observation, perception and the gathering of information..."

Well Conan and Amuro have their small moments of tryin to oversmart eachother but nothing too straight outside from one case with listening device not going to spoil that

[Puto]

HYPE

[kkslider5552000]

OKIYA SUBARU'S POINTLESS CAMEOS EPISODE 31 (GREEN)


I have a feeling this episode is really controversial since along with the last one Gosho borderline threw away the mystery aspect of this arc. YET THIS ARC MUST CONTINUE!

I gotta be honest, I was really disappointed when I heard the Bourbon arc had not ended a while ago, because there is no possible good reason this arc should last this long. That's still true but if it has to continue, I'm glad this is the way they are doing it. These identities have been clear to us for quite a while and just been retreads of mostly better storylines, so I think dropping even pretending to be mysteries in this case is the best option. It is way more interesting as suspense at this point anyway.

Ironically Okiya is the only one technically not spelled out, which I'm fine with as he is the greatest running gag of a character.

But wow, I never would have guessed they'd continue with us knowing Bourbon's identity.

Oh yeah, if anyone ever doubts that the anime's use of Kid has become far better than Gosho's...remember how this one was solved.

With all that said, about time I add something new to my signature...

Number of songs from 2007 soundtrack: 2

[Puto]

Worth noting is that at this point, the Black Organisation (minus Vermouth) are convinced that Sherry is dead, which should give her some freedom. Maybe. I hope.

Next episode will establish the new status quo.

On a different matter, the animation on this episode was really subpar. It's like they splurged the budget on the previous 3 episodes so they had to go with their F-team for this.

[shinichi'sapprentice]

if not for spoilers.. these series of episodes would have been more enjoyable...
the following texts are intentionally left invisible for the reason not wanting to cause trouble.. why do some users use avatars that are dangerously spoilerish.. the following are the possible reasons that come to mind:
-user so excited about what they read in the manga that they can't hold it anymore, they have to use the panel as their avatar to express their excitement or perhaps anticipation..?
-bragging.. that they know what already happened, and we don't..
considering that this community has expressed their sincerity of reducing spoilers to the best of everyone's capability, just why do people spoil the story?!!

LESSON LEARNED(on anti-spoiler side): do not open spoiler boxes at all costs!!!
look away when you feel the pictures (if looking) or posts (if reading) are leading to unwanted spoilers..

a little suggestion from me to manga readers.. warn us that your replies/spoiler boxes/avatars/signatures/links are spoiler hazards so we don't have to read your entire posts..

[Adel34]

How did Conan get to know that Amuro is Bourbon? He wasn't there where the thing happened. Kid also didn't tell him this by phone.

[User 4869]

How did Conan get to know that Amuro is Bourbon? He wasn't there where the thing happened. Kid also didn't tell him this by phone.

He hear what Kid hear and Amuro announce he is Bourbon. Conan on phone with Kid and tell him what to speak.

btw
I would prefer
"OKIYA SUBARU'S POINTLESS CAMEOS EPISODE 31 (Dramatic Eye Opening)"

[k11chi]

How did Conan get to know that Amuro is Bourbon? He wasn't there where the thing happened. Kid also didn't tell him this by phone.

He realized Amuro was Bourbon when he started shouting about the fire. he knew the BO was there also.

Also he was most likely listening with Haibara and you can count on the fact that Subaru was too

[DetectiveKir]

As i stated in the manga thread eons ago, this case just doesn't make any sense, first of all, the Murder relies so many factors that could have easily gone wrong that its too hard to believe its even possible.

And the whole BO battle could have easily been solved with antiperspirant..sorry couldn't resist
let me repeat, the whole BO battle just doesn't make any sense, here's a list:

1)The original plan involved yukiko dressing up as sherry and wearing bullet proof chest, what if they shot her in her head?

2)Ignoring the whole "how can kid disguise so quickly" point, You'd think a person such as kid, who just in case something happens hid his glider in the storage room, would be able to escape conan without having to agree to disguise as sherry.

3) Trains have fire extinguishers, if a fire starts there will be people trying to put it off, so Bourbon wouldn't be alone in the last car with sherry and wouldn't be able to perform his plan

4)The whole mind reading thing was also cheap, everything could have gone differently that it doesn't make sense to base a plan on assumptions.

and that's all i have for now.

1. I don't think that was ever their actual plan, because Conan wouldn't put his mom in a situation that dire. I think they assumed Vermouth would check her room and find the items, which would make her belive that it was their main course of action. Which would give Conan and Akai time, to read and react to the situation. That's why she intentionally ran into Vermouth in the hallway, so she could bait her into snooping around her room.

2. It's not that he couldn't get away from Conan, If you haven't noticed they seem to have a mutual respect for each other. Conan has let Kid get away, when he's returning things or helping people out, whiles Kid has helped Conan out on different cases. So Kid wasn't just going to deny Conan's request, that would be completely out of character. Hell, it would even be out of character for Kaito kid in Magic Kaito, to simply deny someone's request knowing that a person might die.

3. The only people that didn't make sense to leave in that instant were the conductors. Especilly since the people involved in the case, should all have a fear of fire. All Bourbon had to do was yell fire, because the smoke was originating from so many different places, if I understood correctly. Vermouth didn't just set it up in one place. If it's already engulfing the whole train, one fire extinguisher isn't gonna be nearly enough.

4. Vermouth's plan in 345 relied on assuming the Fbi's movements, and assuming Conan would go towards the murder rather than protecting Ai. The whole concept behind Clash of Red and Black relied on predicting Gin seeing through the fake trucks, rather than just trying to apprehend all of them. Hell, even 425 relied on Akai assuming that the Bo, would eventually go to Mouri's detective agency. The bottom line is all of the Bo clashes rely on reading their opponent on both sides, because we're talking about extremely intelligent players like Vermouth, Gin, Bourbon, Conan and Akai.


The only thing you might have a point on is number 3, everything else just seems like really weird points. Especially 4, which is a big aspect of any Conan vs BO clash. It's not that they're ever just clashing with guns, it's a clash of wits and prediction, with lives at stake

[Conan 48:69]

Bourbon carrying a cell phone, a screwdriver, a pair of white glove, a gun and a bomb with him. Did his pocket like Doraemon's fourth-dimensional pocket which can help him carrying many stuffs.

[k11chi]

Bourbon carrying a cell phone, a screwdriver, a pair of white glove, a gun and a bomb with him. Did his pocket like Doraemon's fourth-dimensional pocket which can help him carrying many stuffs.

Bourbon did spend time in his room before appearing on the scene maybe he made the c4 himself? Vodka only mentioned about Vermouth taking "some" (storage hold full of them) explosives

[Divin]

As i stated in the manga thread eons ago, this case just doesn't make any sense, first of all, the Murder relies so many factors that could have easily gone wrong that its too hard to believe its even possible.

And the whole BO battle could have easily been solved with antiperspirant..sorry couldn't resist
let me repeat, the whole BO battle just doesn't make any sense, here's a list:

1)The original plan involved yukiko dressing up as sherry and wearing bullet proof chest, what if they shot her in her head?

2)Ignoring the whole "how can kid disguise so quickly" point, You'd think a person such as kid, who just in case something happens hid his glider in the storage room, would be able to escape conan without having to agree to disguise as sherry.

3) Trains have fire extinguishers, if a fire starts there will be people trying to put it off, so Bourbon wouldn't be alone in the last car with sherry and wouldn't be able to perform his plan

4)The whole mind reading thing was also cheap, everything could have gone differently that it doesn't make sense to base a plan on assumptions.

and that's all i have for now.

1. I don't think that was ever their actual plan, because Conan wouldn't put his mom in a situation that dire. I think they assumed Vermouth would check her room and find the items, which would make her belive that it was their main course of action. Which would give Conan and Akai time, to read and react to the situation. That's why she intentionally ran into Vermouth in the hallway, so she could bait her into snooping around her room.

2. It's not that he couldn't get away from Conan, If you haven't noticed they seem to have a mutual respect for each other. Conan has let Kid get away, when he's returning things or helping people out, whiles Kid has helped Conan out on different cases. So Kid wasn't just going to deny Conan's request, that would be completely out of character. Hell, it would even be out of character for Kaito kid in Magic Kaito, to simply deny someone's request knowing that a person might die.

3. The only people that didn't make sense to leave in that instant were the conductors. Especilly since the people involved in the case, should all have a fear of fire. All Bourbon had to do was yell fire, because the smoke was originating from so many different places, if I understood correctly. Vermouth didn't just set it up in one place. If it's already engulfing the whole train, one fire extinguisher isn't gonna be nearly enough.

4. Vermouth's plan in 345 relied on assuming the Fbi's movements, and assuming Conan would go towards the murder rather than protecting Ai. The whole concept behind Clash of Red and Black relied on predicting Gin seeing through the fake trucks, rather than just trying to apprehend all of them. Hell, even 425 relied on Akai assuming that the Bo, would eventually go to Mouri's detective agency. The bottom line is all of the Bo clashes rely on reading their opponent on both sides, because we're talking about extremely intelligent players like Vermouth, Gin, Bourbon, Conan and Akai.


The only thing you might have a point on is number 3, everything else just seems like really weird points. Especially 4, which is a big aspect of any Conan vs BO clash. It's not that they're ever just clashing with guns, it's a clash of wits and prediction, with lives at stake

I agree with DetectiveKir to a large degree, maybe even completely.

1.) Conan would never endanger his mom by letting her come face-to-face with anybody else of the BO than Vermouth/Sharon. (Although I will rant a bit myself about this case and weaken this point substantially). And that this wasn't the actual plan is obvious, since (like DetectiveKir mentioned) Yukiko revealed herself to Vermouth, who didn't know at that point that Yukiko was on board. Hence Vermouth would never check her room. Additionally coming back to said room would be stupid, because Vermouths reaction of checking the room was foreseeable and the disguise-kit would not be usable. And they obviously didn't have just one disguise-kit, because Kaitou Kid used one they had to have prepared. Otherwise it would just be ludicrous. Thus one can safely assume that this whole charade was intended to throw Vermouth off the "real plan"(another part of my rant). A huge indicator for that was left out of the episode: after Vermouth leaves the room, Yukiko glances back and immediately drops her screaming-act (see the manga)

2.) Well... the disguise part is a bit controversial, but as I said: I assume Conan and Yukiko provided the disguise. We don't actually have a time-frame for disguising, but I agree it was unrealistically fast. About the possible escape and helping each other: the "mutual respect" part is true and we all know that Kaitou is at heart on the good side of it all. However I'd like to adress that escaping Conan in tha particular situation wasn't as easy as Conan324 might think. He himself could have probably outwitted Conan in this situation, but not without leaving his partner behind, thus allowing the police to backtrace his actual identity. So... Conan did offer a reasonable incentive.

3.) One could take Vermouths reasoning for granted: the fire-victims caused a mass-hysteria even in the personnel. One could argue that when the fake fire engulfed two wagons they simply didn't see the point of trying to extinguish it. But let's be reasonable: with a fire that big they would have directly stopped the train or at least cut off the last two wagons. That part wasn't in any way realistic.

4.) The duel between Conan + FBI and the BO was always a large chess game. They always try to anticipate their opponents' moves and usually Conan comes up ahead of the BO by thinking one step further (or simply by being exceptionally lucky: see the night in the locker ^^). No mind reading involved. And every plan is based on assumptions: if you know how it all works out then you don't need a plan, because you already have a solution. If you have a specific assumption, you object to, we can talk about it further, but you can't generally dismiss the notion of assumptions in a fight between Team Conan and the BO, otherwise you won't enjoy them very much.

Now to my rant:
There are probably a lot of people who already ranted about this case in the spoiler-filled part of this forum, so my objections might be redundant. Personally I only watch the anime and take up the manga if I have the feeling I or the anime-producers might have missed something. So bare with me!

1.) Conan knows the BO's modus operandi by now. They act like a surgeon with a scapel if it suits them, but they don't care if they have to take out a large group of people to achieve their goals. Given that Gin's ridiculous plan was to blow up the whole train station, it was more than reasonable to assume that they would just blow up the train. Nevertheless Conan put himself, Haibara, Ran!, his mother, Agasa and the DB on the train. I can't be the only one who thinks that is freaking stupid. Especially when their reward is sooo small. Hurray: the BO thinks Sherry is dead. I don't think that this justifies the risks at all.

2.) What was the actual plan? If Conan really relied on finding Kaitou and blackmailing him into disguising as Sherry, then he has lost his game. And for observing the situation and coming up with a plan on the spot, the risks were way to high. I am sorry, but in all the other clashed Conan's plans were brillant (not perfect, but brillant) and this plan wasn't even a plan. In this case the conclusion with Kaitou was a 'deus ex machina' if I ever saw one; which would be fine with me, if there had been a plan to begin with. But as I said: I think Yukiko disguising was never a real plan except for maybe stalling and after that... there was nothing but reacting, which is a very poor agenda when the stakes are that high.

3.) What was Kaitou doing there in the first place? As if he couldn't check and rig the train when it isn't actually on the rails...

4.) How stupid was the whole setup? There are literally thousands of ways to leave the region, but Sherry would pick a highly advertised train and sport the according ring weeks before, because apart from creating a drug that can cause rejuvenation this girl has no brains at all?!?! Was that really the BO's reasoning??? I mean I get that they would check for her in this train, because it was their only clue, but they were willing to blow up a whole train station and create a lot of smoke (figuratively speaking) for what might have been a ruse?

I could go on... but the goal of a rant is to feel better (not about the case, but in general). Goal achieved ^^! Don't let that discourage you from disagreeing with me. I would really appreciate it, if you could make sense of this case for me, because I don't like to think that Gosho is losing his touch with the BO. I could live with all other cases becoming stale, but the BO arcs must take a turn for the better.