Sharon and Chris are separate people

[Pmofmalasia]

It seems like if we aren't given the specifics on how the test was done, then we should assume that the test was correct. Since if the test was invalid then we'd be given more details in order to invalidate it.

[Elixir]

How did Jodie get Sharon's fingerprint?

I would guess she used a prop Sharon touched while acting, or from a paper she signed, or a pen she used... There is no elaboration of Jodie's investigation method in the manga. All we know is Jodie matched the glasses print to Chris's and then Chris's print to Sharon's.

It might be like that.

Spoiler: offtopic

So being an actress is a big risk for Vermouth as a member of a criminal syndicate. Why would she create all that complicated lies, if she can just let her Sharon persona die without Cris for daughter, while continue living as a diff private person. Maybe she just enjoy her job?

It seems like if we aren't given the specifics on how the test was done, then we should assume that the test was correct. Since if the test was invalid then we'd be given more details in order to invalidate it.

Yeah, that might be the case for DC.

Technicalities aside, one thing that convinced me that they are the same is that Sharon and Cris both refer to Ran as Angel. There is also that feeling of wanting to protect her and Shinichi. If they are diff persons and there exists the internal feud between them, that feeling wouldn't pass on to her daughter, even if she was asked to.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

+1 to Pmof for the comment above.

So being an actress is a big risk for Vermouth as a member of a criminal syndicate. Why would she create all that complicated lies, if she can just let her Sharon persona die without Cris for daughter, while continue living as a diff private person. Maybe she just enjoy her job?

My guess is her fame is useful to the Organization, so she continues to be an actress. As an actress, "Chris" can rub shoulders with high and mighty people. She can use her job to get close to targets, like how Kir used her job as an interviewer. And don't underestimate the power of an idol to get people to lower their their guards.

[crazyclown]

The person known today as Chris Vineyard (Vermouth) appereances:
- On Sharon Vineyard's husband (Vermouth's father?) funeral.

You mean Sharon's funeral, not the husband's?
I watched the whole series and read the manga, there is no Sharon's husband during the story.

[dcfan01]

The person known today as Chris Vineyard (Vermouth) appereances:
- On Sharon Vineyard's husband (Vermouth's father?) funeral.

You mean Sharon's funeral, not the husband's?
I watched the whole series and read the manga, there is no Sharon's husband during the story.

You're right, this didn't actually happen, Sharon just mentioned it to Yukiko (ch.351 p.2)

Anyway, about the theory, there are some other encouraging facts..
Everyone mentions that Gosho kept the fingerprints investigation on the dark, so we should asume it is correct, but
when jodie mentions the investigation to vermouth face to face (ch.433 p.8), Vermouth doesn't confirm nor deny it.
What i mean is: If those were Gosho's true intentions, he could just have Vermouth say "How did you know?" or something.
Furthermore, later on that ch. Vermouth says she is surprised about 2 things, none of them is Jodie's revelation..

Also, there is the fact that when the Vermouth/Kir/Akai/Eisuke arc ended, every question raised in it was answered, everything fell into place, EXCEPT for Vermouth's non-aging condition.

[Elixir]

..but
when jodie mentions the investigation to vermouth face to face (ch.433 p.8), Vermouth doesn't confirm nor deny it.
What i mean is: If those were Gosho's true intentions, he could just have Vermouth say "How did you know?" or something.

I think Vermouth asking ''How did you know" is not a good response for that. Jodie already elaborated on how she was able to conclude that they are the same person. The way Vermouth acted after Jodie's revelation is just fitting for her secretive personality. But if what Jodie's conclusion is invalid, I imagine that Vermouth would laugh at her stupid idea.

Furthermore, later on that ch. Vermouth says she is surprised about 2 things, none of them is Jodie's revelation..

She was surprised that Jodie was the small girl, 20 years ago. Why would she remember that child if Sharon and Cris are not the same? It's almost like that this answer of Vermouth confirms what Jodie said.

Spoiler: I hate long post

It is possible that the reason behind Vermouth's non-aging might reveal the secrets of the Organization, so it's explanation is postponed. There are also vague hints regarding 'immortality' and 'I should not finish this for the sake of humanity program' that the BO were working on . Just hints and no further explanation, might be reserved for later

[dcfan01]

..but
when jodie mentions the investigation to vermouth face to face (ch.433 p.8), Vermouth doesn't confirm nor deny it.
What i mean is: If those were Gosho's true intentions, he could just have Vermouth say "How did you know?" or something.

I think Vermouth asking ''How did you know" is not a good response for that. Jodie already elaborated on how she was able to conclude that they are the same person.

You are right about that, but the point is still valid. There is no confirmation from Vermouth about this matter, yet, she does confirm she was disguised as araide when exposed.

The way Vermouth acted after Jodie's revelation is just fitting for her secretive personality. But if what Jodie's conclusion is invalid, I imagine that Vermouth would laugh at her stupid idea.

In this arc, Vermouth anticipated every one of Jodie's moves, and when the time came, she laughed in Jodie's face..
She was surprised about TWO things though, and none of them was the revelation of her most guarded secret.
Maybe it's still not the time.

Furthermore, later on that ch. Vermouth says she is surprised about 2 things, none of them is Jodie's revelation..

She was surprised that Jodie was the small girl, 20 years ago. Why would she remember that child if Sharon and Cris are not the same? It's almost like that this answer of Vermouth confirms what Jodie said.

I thought the same thing, she said these 2 things that could be confirmation:
"Oh, was that you, the little girl" and
"I looked for you desperately"
Yet, there are 2 or 3 ways to look at this that would play along with the theory:
1- It could have been Vermouth(Chris) first assigment. (To look for a 6 y/o girl)
2- Years later, she might have heard the story of the loose end on her mother's case, and tried to fix it.
3- She somehow knew about Jodie's investigation, and wanted her to keep thinking that C=S=V *
n.3 would only make sense if Sharon was alive, in which case, it would be convinient to think that she is dead, or that she didn't exist in the first place.

Spoiler: I hate long post

It is possible that the reason behind Vermouth's non-aging might reveal the secrets of the Organization, so it's explanation is postponed. There are also vague hints regarding 'immortality' and 'I should not finish this for the sake of humanity program' that the BO were working on . Just hints and no further explanation, might be reserved for later

While I also think this is possible, it is another reason for Gosho to CONFIRM the non-aging..
He got us all thinking it is true anyway (many of us thought it was a done deal).
In fact, I would say that we're all perfectly set for another major plot twist.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I think Vermouth asking ''How did you know" is not a good response for that. Jodie already elaborated on how she was able to conclude that they are the same person.

You are right about that, but the point is still valid. There is no confirmation from Vermouth about this matter, yet, she does confirm she was disguised as araide when exposed.

The way Vermouth acted after Jodie's revelation is just fitting for her secretive personality. But if what Jodie's conclusion is invalid, I imagine that Vermouth would laugh at her stupid idea.

In this arc, Vermouth anticipated every one of Jodie's moves, and when the time came, she laughed in Jodie's face..
She was surprised about TWO things though, and none of them was the revelation of her most guarded secret.
Maybe it's still not the time.

She was surprised that Jodie was the small girl, 20 years ago. Why would she remember that child if Sharon and Cris are not the same? It's almost like that this answer of Vermouth confirms what Jodie said.

I thought the same thing, she said these 2 things that could be confirmation:
"Oh, was that you, the little girl" and
"I looked for you desperately"
Yet, there are 2 or 3 ways to look at this that would play along with the theory:
1- It could have been Vermouth(Chris) first assigment. (To look for a 6 y/o girl)
2- Years later, she might have heard the story of the loose end on her mother's case, and tried to fix it.
3- She somehow knew about Jodie's investigation, and wanted her to keep thinking that C=S=V *
n.3 would only make sense if Sharon was alive, in which case, it would be convinient to think that she is dead, or that she didn't exist in the first place.

Spoiler: I hate long post

It is possible that the reason behind Vermouth's non-aging might reveal the secrets of the Organization, so it's explanation is postponed. There are also vague hints regarding 'immortality' and 'I should not finish this for the sake of humanity program' that the BO were working on . Just hints and no further explanation, might be reserved for later

While I also think this is possible, it is another reason for Gosho to CONFIRM the non-aging..
He got us all thinking it is true anyway (many of us thought it was a done deal).
In fact, I would say that we're all perfectly set for another major plot twist.

I think the non-aging is here to stay. Something this central to the BO's true plan won't likely be confirmed until near the end, but that doesn't mean we can't figure it out ahead of time like the rest of Gosho's mysteries. Ignoring Vermouth altogether, we still have Haibara and Pisco's comments and APTX 4869's side effect in support of aging weirdness.***

Spoiler: Chek's theories rehash

1) The anti-aging side-effects of APTX 4869 probably indicate main intent of the drug. It probably was just a useful side effect that it happened to leave no trace in the victim’s body, and was employed as a poison. After Pisco saw Haibara shrink back to her child form, he commented that he was impressed she had developed the drug to that point, implying that deaging is in the right direction. Supporting this is Ai’s line, "Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century." (V19-9 or file 191/ep 130-131) APTX 4869 is the only known intersection between Shinichi and the B.O. Also, APTX4869 was called the "incomplete detective" - which means its true purpose has not yet been achieved.
2) According to Haibara’s description about APTX 4869 (V24-10), APTX4869 activates telomerase, an enzyme which can increase the number of times a cell can divide, and therefore affect a cell's lifespan and “reproductive potential”. The goal of this might be to revert all non-neural cells to a "youthful", high reproductive potential state. A non-biologist like Gosho constructing the story might latch onto the idea that adding telomerase would increase the lifespan and number of divisions a cell could undergo, lengthening the organism’s lifespan or rejuvenating the body.
3) Miyano Shiho’s name was on the raffle list for the immortality arrows in the mermaid case in Fukui. (279-283)

Don't take this badly, but by trying to reinterpret Vermouth's comments it seems you are trying to twist the facts to suit your theory. I think it would be better to "reopen investigations from square one" and rethink your theory to put it in line with the facts.

Slight offtopic:
I'm rethinking certain things right now: who in the Org truly knows about Vermouth's aging problems, especially Gin and the boss? The train case brought it home that Haibara knows something that Vermouth doesn't want to become known to the rest of the Org. Specifically, it seems Vermouth is trying to hide something else beyond "APTX 4869 can deage people." I originally thought that she was trying to hide the shrinking side-effect from the Org because Vermouth is acting on a grudge against Haibara's family for events in the past and ideological opposition to the Miyano's work. I assumed the boss and Gin knew about Vermouth's aging weirdness already because they are smart and high up. The train case convinced me I can't make that assumption so naively.

Was faking Sharon's death meant to trick the Org as well? After all, Jodie's investigation didn't begin until after Sharon died, so FBI pressure couldn't be the prompt. It would explain why Vermouth thought Jodie, as well as Haibara, had to die too. It would be bad if Jodie's investigation Sharon=Chris became known to the wrong part of the Org. That line of thinking explains some things I hadn't explained as well before, but I need to think it through more carefully to avoid leaping to conclusions.

[dcfan01]

Don't take this badly, but by trying to reinterpret Vermouth's comments it seems you are trying to twist the facts to suit your theory. I think it would be better to "reopen investigations from square one" and rethink your theory to put it in line with the facts.

Slight offtopic:
I'm rethinking certain things right now: who in the Org truly knows about Vermouth's aging problems, especially Gin and the boss? The train case brought it home that Haibara knows something that Vermouth doesn't want to become known to the rest of the Org. Specifically, it seems Vermouth is trying to hide something else beyond "APTX 4869 can deage people." I originally thought that she was trying to hide the shrinking side-effect from the Org because Vermouth is acting on a grudge against Haibara's family for events in the past and ideological opposition to the Miyano's work. I assumed the boss and Gin knew about Vermouth's aging weirdness already because they are smart and high up. The train case convinced me I can't make that assumption so naively.

Was faking Sharon's death meant to trick the Org as well? After all, Jodie's investigation didn't begin until after Sharon died, so FBI pressure couldn't be the prompt. It would explain why Vermouth thought Jodie, as well as Haibara, had to die too. It would be bad if Jodie's investigation Sharon=Chris became known to the wrong part of the Org. That line of thinking explains some things I hadn't explained as well before, but I need to think it through more carefully to avoid leaping to conclusions.

I re-read the mystery train case, and yes, it is almost impossible for this theory to be true, wich is a shame, because I REALLY don't like the idea of stop aging..
About the other stuff, I think that If Vermouth was really hiding somenthing from the BO, then Definitely, the Boss wouldn't know about it..
After all the BO structure seems to be very solid, a structure where everyone obbeys to their supperior without questions; so solid that the people in it prefer to die before being caught.. And in this context, the opinion of the Boss is above everything.
What I mean is that if the boss knew about it, she would have no reason to hide it.

[Commi-Ninja]

Was faking Sharon's death meant to trick the Org as well? After all, Jodie's investigation didn't begin until after Sharon died, so FBI pressure couldn't be the prompt. It would explain why Vermouth thought Jodie, as well as Haibara, had to die too. It would be bad if Jodie's investigation Sharon=Chris became known to the wrong part of the Org. That line of thinking explains some things I hadn't explained as well before, but I need to think it through more carefully to avoid leaping to conclusions.

On a similar vein, what exactly did Calvados know before he committed suicide?
And what do we really know about him, other than that he works with Vermouth?

As far as he is concerned, I found myself wondering after re-watching episode 345, whether he and Akai were close during Akai's time with the Org. I realize Akai can make mistakes, but I think it unlikely that he could just completely miss a handgun, especially if he's already looking for weapons. It seems to me that they might have been friendly (given that it's Akai, maybe not so much), or had some sort of mutual respect. If either of those things were the case, Akai might have intentionally left a gun so that Calvados had a chance to suicide before being captured. Another possibility, also with absolutely nothing to back it up, is that Calvados could be another undercover agent (and could be dead or not, really).

I wonder if knowing more about Calvados would give us more information about Vermouth.

[Conan-chandesune]

I'm rethinking certain things right now: who in the Org truly knows about Vermouth's aging problems, especially Gin and the boss? The train case brought it home that Haibara knows something that Vermouth doesn't want to become known to the rest of the Org. Specifically, it seems Vermouth is trying to hide something else beyond "APTX 4869 can deage people." I originally thought that she was trying to hide the shrinking side-effect from the Org because Vermouth is acting on a grudge against Haibara's family for events in the past and ideological opposition to the Miyano's work. I assumed the boss and Gin knew about Vermouth's aging weirdness already because they are smart and high up. The train case convinced me I can't make that assumption so naively.

Was faking Sharon's death meant to trick the Org as well? After all, Jodie's investigation didn't begin until after Sharon died, so FBI pressure couldn't be the prompt. It would explain why Vermouth thought Jodie, as well as Haibara, had to die too. It would be bad if Jodie's investigation Sharon=Chris became known to the wrong part of the Org. That line of thinking explains some things I hadn't explained as well before, but I need to think it through more carefully to avoid leaping to conclusions.

Well said. However, i would like to point out that it is safe to assume that the boss probably knows, as when Vermouth killed Jodie's parents, she was in the guise of Chris, who would be younger at that point of time if she was different from Sharon. That is my reasoning. Disclaimer: May be wrong. Feel free to correct him.

I re-read the mystery train case, and yes, it is almost impossible for this theory to be true, wich is a shame, because I REALLY don't like the idea of stop aging..
About the other stuff, I think that If Vermouth was really hiding somenthing from the BO, then Definitely, the Boss wouldn't know about it..
After all the BO structure seems to be very solid, a structure where everyone obbeys to their supperior without questions; so solid that the people in it prefer to die before being caught.. And in this context, the opinion of the Boss is above everything.
What I mean is that if the boss knew about it, she would have no reason to hide it.

About the stop aging part, i think we can reasonbably accept it if we accept that Shinichi shrinks. Gosho will explain it, hopefully, in a deft manner.
Also, it could be that she did not want Gin and the others to know about it as, if my above deduction is correct, the boss should know. Gin and Vermouth have shown to have a love/hate relationship after all. And we know Gin doesnt care much for Vermouth as he refutes her advances on panel and plans to take care of her at the start of ep 345, even if the boss disapproved. And everyone is scared of the boss, so that's no small thing.

On a similar vein, what exactly did Calvados know before he committed suicide?
And what do we really know about him, other than that he works with Vermouth?

As far as he is concerned, I found myself wondering after re-watching episode 345, whether he and Akai were close during Akai's time with the Org. I realize Akai can make mistakes, but I think it unlikely that he could just completely miss a handgun, especially if he's already looking for weapons. It seems to me that they might have been friendly (given that it's Akai, maybe not so much), or had some sort of mutual respect. If either of those things were the case, Akai might have intentionally left a gun so that Calvados had a chance to suicide before being captured. Another possibility, also with absolutely nothing to back it up, is that Calvados could be another undercover agent (and could be dead or not, really).

I wonder if knowing more about Calvados would give us more information about Vermouth.

I remember Calavados is like Korn and Chianti, a sniper/assassin. And he commited suicide as he did not want to be questioned. That is it, i feel. While he may be referenced in future plot arcs, i do not think time will be given (or is even necessary) to develop his character. Akai also has shown that he wants to stop the org heartily as they killed the woman he loved and hence, i do not believe he would let an information source die under any scenario, respect or no respect. Also, Akai himself knows little (but not VERY little) about the org. So the odds of his meeting a random guy are small at best.

Offtopic: Making posts in discussion threads such as these are time-taking and fun. I do not mean to rain on anyone's parade. I think i will come here more often now. Also, Chek and my fav character is the same. XD

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

After all the BO structure seems to be very solid, a structure where everyone obeys to their supperior without questions; so solid that the people in it prefer to die before being caught.. And in this context, the opinion of the Boss is above everything.

I'm not so sure about this.
> Akemi Miyano's insubordination.
> Vermouth runs off and does whatever she likes.
> Gin gets icepick-stabby on Vermouth. Even if it worked out in the end, I don't think the boss would approve of that in a crowded restaurant.
> Gin gave Vodka the approval to kill Vermouth in the haunted boat case, even though Gin explicitly said he didn't have permission from the boss.
> Vodka freely changed a meeting time without approval, leading to Gin intervening.
> Bourbon is going around making plans with Vermouth and skirting Gin in the oversight division, leading to almost-friendly fire at a dept store. Even if he has the boss's approval, the chain of information was screwed up there.
> The planned Bell Tree express bombing was a total clusterfuck. Gin and Vodka planned to blow up a train they knew Vermouth and Bourbon were on. Not sure how that idea got the boss's approval, if it did at all. And then Vermouth had other plans for explosives that Gin and Bourbon didn't know about.

Well said. However, i would like to point out that it is safe to assume that the boss probably knows, as when Vermouth killed Jodie's parents, she was in the guise of Chris, who would be younger at that point of time if she was different from Sharon. That is my reasoning. Disclaimer: May be wrong. Feel free to correct him.

Chris is 29 now, so that would make Chris nine years old 20 years ago when Jodie's parents were killed. Did you mean Vermouth was in Sharon guise, who would be 30s or so?

I realize Akai can make mistakes, but I think it unlikely that he could just completely miss a handgun, especially if he's already looking for weapons.

Regarding Akai being sloppy about missing Calvados's pocket pistol, he was in a hurry. Check the art. Calavados was shooting at Ran moments before. You can tell because of the right handedness. In only the time it took Vermouth to yell at Ran to let go of Ai, Akai disabled Calvados and disarmed him as best he could then rushed to get to Jodie. I would assume it's easy to miss something when rushing like that.

[Conan-chandesune]

After all the BO structure seems to be very solid, a structure where everyone obeys to their supperior without questions; so solid that the people in it prefer to die before being caught.. And in this context, the opinion of the Boss is above everything.

I'm not so sure about this.
> Akemi Miyano's insubordination.
> Vermouth runs off and does whatever she likes.
> Gin gets icepick-stabby on Vermouth. Even if it worked out in the end, I don't think the boss would approve of that in a crowded restaurant.
> Gin gave Vodka the approval to kill Vermouth in the haunted boat case, even though Gin explicitly said he didn't have permission from the boss.
> Vodka freely changed a meeting time without approval, leading to Gin intervening.
> Bourbon is going around making plans with Vermouth and skirting Gin in the oversight division, leading to almost-friendly fire at a dept store. Even if he has the boss's approval, the chain of information was screwed up there.
> The planned Bell Tree express bombing was a total clusterfuck. Gin and Vodka planned to blow up a train they knew Vermouth and Bourbon were on. Not sure how that idea got the boss's approval, if it did at all. And then Vermouth had other plans for explosives that Gin and Bourbon didn't know about.

Well said. However, i would like to point out that it is safe to assume that the boss probably knows, as when Vermouth killed Jodie's parents, she was in the guise of Chris, who would be younger at that point of time if she was different from Sharon. That is my reasoning. Disclaimer: May be wrong. Feel free to correct him.

Chris is 29 now, so that would make Chris nine years old 20 years ago when Jodie's parents were killed. Did you mean Vermouth was in Sharon guise, who would be 30s or so?

Yeah, thats what i meant. She looked like Chris' present day appearance, who would be 9 at that time, hence the boss would know of her being the same as Sharon. However, here i have sort-of-a-pointless-speculation. The Org has been around for 50 years at least, right (Ai, The Castle case - Ep 130-131) So does that mean, there were different bosses at different points of time?? If we *assume* that he boss is one person the org was started at that point of time(not explicitly stated, i would like someone to provide a link to the English chapter), the boss would be at least 20 years old, so if we assume the boss is seventy years old, then it is easier to search for him in canon. If he himself stopped againg, then he would be, at the very least, 20ish now. Also, i was wondering, waking APTX for a person older than the two subjects we know (18 and 17), will they be kindergarteners or older, as acc. to their age?? Because, then, determining the age of the boss (which would be a vital clue) will be a pain in the....

[Elixir]

My guess is her fame is useful to the Organization, so she continues to be an actress. As an actress, "Chris" can rub shoulders with high and mighty people. She can use her job to get close to targets, like how Kir used her job as an interviewer. And don't underestimate the power of an idol to get people to lower their guards.

I was thinking that she could be easily arrested by the FBI in one of her acting gigs. But, they still lack evidence afterall. Jodie's parents murder issue was already expired. Besides the NYC case, I don't know what else Vermouth did in US. But she likely destroyed the evidence. Then she migrated to Japan to which FBI has no authority nor permission. Only Conan was able to provide evidence just minutes prior arrest but she got away with a hostage. XD

Spoiler: I found this hilarious

Then the Japanese police came, yet they didn't report Conan was taken?!? Hahah.

Although her popularity is one of her assets, it is also her liability. Kir had once made a picture of her removed from a website. There's that boy who witnessed Kir's accident, to which Conan said it was Kamen Yaiba. If Conan did not do anything, Mizunashi Rena's disappearance+a boy witness + hospital staff witnesses, I wonder if it will lead to FBI spilling out, once questioned by the Japanese police. Vermouth's greatest asset could be her disguise and voice changing skills. Conan still need the gadget. Lolz.

I thought I should not elaborate on this since it's offtopic, but then the succeeding post had gotten off. I think it should be ok. It's entertaining to read the posts here. More realizations come to my mind. ^^

[Akai Shuuichi]

For those saying Sharon and Chris aren't the same, the only reason(apart from the fingerprints issue) for 2 reasons.
1st in Vermouth's arc when Ran jumped in to save Haibara, Vermouth shouted "Get away ANGEL". This nickname was given by Sharon to Ran in the NY case.
2nd at some point of the manga not yet in anime

Spoiler:

Yukiko confronted Vermouth and it was clear that Chris/Sharon were the same