Ecchi Hakone Bath's Murder Case (722-724): Vote for the culp

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

As usual, you may change your vote using the remove vote option and then recasting it again.

This thread is for talking about the dead person and who might have made him that way. If you want to talk about nekkid peoples, then please direct your attention to this thread (http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=2828.0).

I hope we get the other detective Takagi (450-452) on the case this time.I'd like to note Tanzawa Junsaku seems to be left handed based on his interaction with the vending machine. Does anyone else think the manager and the actress are an item? Also take into account that warm environments like to speed up rigor mortis and throw off the estimated time of death. And we don't want to forget the special location, Tottori! Gosho's hometown has come up several times in connection to the Org. Gin and Vodka disembarked from the Shinkansen at Tottori station. (Maybe they wanted to visit the baths too.) Let's hope for a clue! Abs. has rained on my parade and corrected me by pointing out this onsen case is in Hakone not Tottori.  

The outstanding question of chapter 722 is how does Conan know this is a closed room murder case and not an accident. Post your theories please!


*edit by GinRei* Proper location in title.

[Schillok]

Well, if Conan says it is a closed-room murder then it IS a closed-room murder case.

I guess it is the position of the body, like the open mouth, the position of the arms - he would have tried to stop his fall with the arms if he tripped and felt on the back of his head. And closed his mouth, at least after landing.

So far there are many open questions... especially why did he enter the womans bath?!? If I remember correctly it was mentioned that he womans bath is bigger, but why did he have to enter there? Another question is: Where are his clothes?
Another matter is how fast everything was. The detective boys entered the bath about 7 minutes later - not much time for a murderer to manipulate the crime scene. (Which pretty much rules it out that he was moved after his death) And... how did the murderer escape?

I need to read the finished scanlation. Especially to find out the connection between the Onsen and the hotel and the sea.


For now... the only logical course of events is that the victim was lured into the womans bath. Which makes the actress the prime suspect. But before knowing her location and her alibi it is too early to call it any more than a suspicion.

[Abs.]

Wait!  Chekhov!  Hakone!  Hakone!

It would be easy to think of a trick much like the palace with the legendary 5-colored water... was that an AO?  Can't remember...

His clothes are probably in the women's bath.  We are supposed to believe that he was meeting the actress for some hanky-panky in order to both ensure her role and her manager/boyfriend's role as the Blood Spray Hitman.

[Schillok]

Wait!  Chekhov!  Hakone!  Hakone!

It would be easy to think of a trick much like the palace with the legendary 5-colored water... was that an AO?  Can't remember...

His clothes are probably in the women's bath.  We are supposed to believe that he was meeting the actress for some hanky-panky in order to both ensure her role and her manager/boyfriend's role as the Blood Spray Hitman.

Legendary 5-colored water? Guess it was an AO, at least I can't remember a case like that.
I just remember a different case in another mystery manga with an onsen with red water...


But yeah, that is pretty much what I think as well so far. But why 15 minutes before the bath opens for the public?

[Abs.]

Technically the main suspects are all actors.  May not have actually been the old guy the DB saw from their room.  So that'd throw the timing off.

[baka1412]

I laughed when i saw the vote results ...

Who would've though Haibara and Ayumi got the highest vote as the culprit : (ah well, i did actually)

[Abs.]

Does anyone else think that "Natori Mishio" is sort of like "Natalie Mitchell" or "Natalie Michelle"   Her name bugs me.

[GinRei]

Wait!  Chekhov!  Hakone!  Hakone!

Indeed.  I've been there.  In fact, my hotel room's room, halls, and outside of the building looked the exact same as the one used in this chapter.  The onsen part did not, however.

And Hakone is in Kanagawa, right?  Who's the Inspector/Detective for that region?  Is it Juugo Yokomizo?

[NekoHaruko]

Tottori? Can't wait to see what happens. Just watched the Spider Masion case yesterday... And Conan is such a pervert...

[Abs.]

Wait!  Chekhov!  Hakone!  Hakone!

Indeed.  I've been there.  In fact, my hotel room's room, halls, and outside of the building looked the exact same as the one used in this chapter.  The onsen part did not, however.

Check out the mentioned onsen in Hawai, Tottori Prefecture:

And Hakone is in Kanagawa, right?  Who's the Inspector/Detective for that region?  Is it Juugo Yokomizo?

Hmm maybe we should do a map for the regional keiji/keibu  8)






...HEY WTF!  The damn men's and women's baths changed places from Page 9 to Pages 13-14!!  On Page 9 the bridge leads to the men's, which is lower than the women's, which is up the steps.  On Pages 13-14, the bridge leads to the women's which is lower than the men's, which is up the steps.  Someone must have changed the signs/cloth hangings.

And the DB/Conan weren't awake enough to notice?  *^&&**** PLEASE SEE CORRECTED TRANSLATION (either mine or cutepeipei's)

[Schillok]

...HEY WTF!  The damn men's and women's baths changed places from Page 9 to Pages 13-14!!  On Page 9 the bridge leads to the men's, which is lower than the women's, which is up the steps.  On Pages 13-14, the bridge leads to the women's which is lower than the men's, which is up the steps.  Someone must have changed the signs/cloth hangings.

And the DB/Conan weren't awake enough to notice?

You are right. They really changed places. But why?

It was not the person (who probably is really the 67 years old victim) the DB saw on the bridge when they woke up who exchanged them.
Now it makes sense why he entered the bath though: Since we couldn't see the face of the victim on the bridge we don't know if he was wearing is glasses or not. Since glasses are just a hindrance for bathing (especially in an Onsen) I guess he didn't wear his that morning and was therefore not trying to read the signs at the entrance (or unable if he is far-sighted) so he entered the bath that he thought would be the right one for man, since he remembered it is supposed to be the lower one. Being called a "honored guest" makes it even more likely that he was there a few times before.

But I have still no idea how the murderer was able to enter the onsen without being noticed by the two employees at the entrance - or how he was able to leave with the Detective Boys arriving only a few minutes later. Jumping into the see and swimming back - maybe under the bridge to prevent being seen - is an option. But there were no stairs on the platforms that would allow him to climb up and the building seems to be quite a bit above the water surface (on page 10 it seems to be about 1.5 times the height of Agasa).

The exchange of places is too mysterious to not be part of the murderers trick. But why did he/she exchange them. Or how Mia from Phoenix Wright would put it: Why did the murderer have to exchange it?
Was he/she afraid that another man might come directly after the victim so he/she needed to divert that man into the other bath? (Which would make sense if the actress is the murderer since she would have trouble finding an explanation what she is doing in the mans bath.)
Still, this exchange is something that is easy noticeable once on of the employees notices the switch...

Of course it might also be just random: Just a little mistake from the cleaning crew when they replaced the signs with a new one and switched them by accident.

Hearing the alibis of the suspects - and learning some more clues how exactly that old man died - would be very helpful.
And of course the question from the beginning: How can Conan be sure it is a murderer in the first place and not just an accident.

[Key-chan]

Or how Mia from Phoenix Wright would put it: Why did the murderer have to exchange it?

That's right, let's all start thinking "out of the box"

[Misztina]

So hard. Everyone is very suspicious, but the guy in glasses seems to be in the focus the most. It seems like everybody has a good reason to kill him.
The glasses-guy and the actress seem to have (had) a deeper relationship. There is a god chance that the actress did it for the man in glasses. Until next time I'll go with that.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Or how Mia from Phoenix Wright would put it: Why did the murderer have to exchange it?

That's right, let's all start thinking "out of the box"

This part made moot due to a newly translate line clearing up the confusion

Spoiler:

The switching of the baths' genders is mysterious. I thought it was strange Conan didn't notice immediately the baths were switched. If the screenwriter was indeed an honored guest, the establishment may have switched the gender of the baths to accommodate his disability (the higher bath requires using stairs); however, they wouldn't have made the bath he would use the women's bath. The other thing about switching the baths' genders is that it is going to be noticed right away, unless there was some plan to change it back later, but "later" seems to be about five minutes until opening time. It would have been difficult to do since there may be early arrivals (like the kids.)
It doesn't make sense for the murderer to have taken down the signs and mistakenly have reversed them. There are lanterns lighting the bridge to the onsen and both onsens were already lit on the inside when Conan and the crew arrived. You'd have to be dense to not notice in that light.
The only reason I can think of for switching it would be that there was some feature that the lower bath had the upper one didn't, thus the lower one had to be used and that it was important for the victim to be in the women's bath. The only reason I can think of is that the victim expected to meet a female there, or the murderer wanted or needed to frame a woman.

One curious thing about the state of the vic is that he was right by the baths. Normally, I think you are supposed to take some time washing yourself off thoroughly before you enter. How could he have finished cleaning himself so quickly? Perhaps he got there ahead of time and the old man seen crossing the bridge was a fake, or he went right over to the bathside to speak to someone before other people arrived (why take off your clothes though?), or there was something floating in the water he felt complected to investigate...
The other thing is that there is a pool of blood in the water behind him which hasn't been mixed in which would suggest he got hit recently since I THINK (forensic scientists check me here) bleeding stops pretty soon after death because of the lack of drive from the circulatory system. Since Conan was still undressing, I assume that they hadn't washed up yet and thus they found the body between 10 to 15 minutes after they saw the figure cross the bridge.
Without further clues as to whether the victim was by himself in the baths and assuming that the mode of death was blunt head trauma, I can only think of a few general possibilities about how the murder could be committed. One is that the murderer snuck over to the onsen, waited for the victim, and laid him out right after the screenwriter finished undressing himself, and somehow snuck/stowed away. Another is that the person seen crossing the bridge was not the screenwriter, but the murderer in disguise and the victim was already in the bath. The sign switches don't mesh with this explanation though. The third is that the murderer somehow contrived to make the vic slip and fall (he has weak legs) by modifying the surroundings. The fourth would be that murder was carried out elsewhere and the body was somehow transported to the onsen. With this last one some time of death trick and maybe a little blood drawn from the victim to dabble the scene with might be necessary.

Side view of the baths:

Spoiler:

I found an image that might show a diagram of the baths layout, (I saw it as a thumbnail) but I can't get it to load. Can anyone else see it? It should show up below this text.

Based on some pictures of the onsen, there may be boats that go by. I'm not sure about that though. Another possibility is some pre-setup scuba gear to use to escape and stay below the surface.

Made moot by difference in final translation

Spoiler:

Something about the script writer, when he said "Judging by your performance, a change may occur…" I thought he might be referencing the possible relationship between Tanzawa Junsaku and Natori Mishio and hence they would be a more appropriate couple for main drama pair.

[Schillok]

Well... everyone should have another look at the translation thread...

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=2829.0

So much for the mystery of the changing baths.

It is supposed to be that way, planned by the hotel itself and known to everyone in advance.
Which of course leads to the question from the beginning: Why did the victim enter the womans bath?

Theories:
1. He was invited by his murderer.
2. He forgot something the previous day when it was still the mens bath and went to retrieve it.
3. He planed something... indecent. 
4. He didn't notice/forgot it was switched.

Most of the theories assume that his murderer took his clothes after killing him to make it look like an accident.

One curious thing about the state of the vic is that he was right by the baths. Normally, I think you are supposed to take some time washing yourself off thoroughly before you enter. How could he have finished cleaning himself so quickly?

I think the washing is in the same room as the bath. On the right side in the big picture on the last page you can see a mirror and a shower tap - likely you are supposed to wash yourself there. And it is just as likely that there are more showers on the other walls.

Another is that the person seen crossing the bridge was not the screenwriter, but the murderer in disguise and the victim was already in the bath

Which would mean that he somehow got into the bath without anyone noticing. Also, it was the two employees that opened the door to the bridge for the Detective Boys so the person on the bridge must have spoken to them alone. And unless the murderer is Vermouth or Kaito Kid I can't imagine anyone being able to imitate/costume him well enough to fool the two employees.
Well, however the side view you showed suggested there is a second bridge leading to the baths... would be interesting if there is anything suspicious on that other way.

However you are right: The high temperature in an Onsen can make detecting the time of death harder. At least temperature-based methods. Too bad Conan is already there to check for things like blood coagulation and muscle stiffing way before the murderer expected the police to arrive. It may allow deviations of a few minutes - if the victim really was not the one seen on the bridge.