Thank you for your explanation , I got too far from reality , I forgot about it.Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:NiderMine wrote: Akai Death: Episode 504
As most of you think that Shuichi Akai faked his death with Kir help .
In the case of telephone that has Kusuda fingerprints this plan seemingly has succeeded by returning phone to conan with different serial number , which means the man whose body burnt is not akai but he was someone other than akai.
O.K. if something goes wrong with the plan . For example if Gin ask Kir to shot him in the arms or on his mouth or nose . Then Kir might really will kill akai , Then the fingerprints on the telephone will not match which means that akai died so conan will have his original phone back .
After that when FBI check the fingerprints of conan's cell phone they will find that the fingerprints are not matching so it means
Akai has not died . Then what will happen at moment .
I have poor English please if you don't understand from first time read it again.
And sorry for any disturbance.
If Akai really was killed there would be two bodies in the truck: Akai's and Rikumichi's. Presumably both Akai's and Rikumichi's body would be destroyed beyond recognition by the bomb. The BO wouldn't be able to tell who the other body was (they would have to guess), nor would the BO know that Akai had dressed the body up to make a body double because all the clothes would be burnt. That said, Rikumichi's body was prepared by Conan and Akai so the right hand fingerprints would survive the explosion and burning. I assume that would still happen even if the plan was messed up and Akai was really killed. So now the police have two unrecognizable bodies, and one of them has fingerprints. Conan, the FBI, and Org hear about a burned truck with two suspicious bodies on the news.
The BO knows one body is Akai, but they have to make a deduction about who the other body is. They might guess the other body was Rikumichi. Their logic would be that a still living person who came with Akai would have tried to escape or attack Kir when Akai was shot and the bomb planted. A dead person makes more sense, and the BO had lost contact with Rikumichi earlier. The BO would probably be forced to reason that Akai was still keeping the body for some reason (the clothes are burnt up so they don't realize Akai disguised it) maybe because the FBI could not hide it in the hospital morgue, or Akai was in the middle of transporting it when Kir called him, or something like that. The BO are confused, but Kir still killed Akai, so in the end the BO are happy. Kir appears to be loyal to the BO.
The FBI wonder who the other body is. Jodie takes Conan's phone she thinks has Akai's fingerprints on it (really Rikumichi's) to the police and it matches one of the bodies. The police probably would not clarify to Jodie which of the two bodies it matched, but even if they did, Jodie thinks they are Akai's fingerprints which means Akai is dead. The FBI figure out later the other body is Rikumichi's because it went missing. However, the FBI have no idea what Shuuichi was doing with the body because the disguise was burnt up and Akai never told them his secret plan. The FBI are confused, but Akai is dead, so in the end the FBI are sad.
Conan knows two bodies means the plan failed and Akai is dead. He is sad.
The police are still confused.
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"Diamond Shaped Feeling" (ãItoTakagi wrote: there one more i wan to know the soundtrack tittle
in episode 574 at time 00:18:04
anybody please help me??..tq ^^ i like those pianist music..
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The BO knows one body is Akai, but they have to make a deduction about who the other body is. They might guess the other body was Rikumichi. Their logic would be that a still living person who came with Akai would have tried to escape or attack Kir when Akai was shot and the bomb planted. A dead person makes more sense, and the BO had lost contact with Rikumichi earlier. The BO would probably be forced to reason that Akai was still keeping the body for some reason (the clothes are burnt up so they don't realize Akai disguised it) maybe because the FBI could not hide it in the hospital morgue, or Akai was in the middle of transporting it when Kir called him, or something like that. The BO are confused, but Kir still killed Akai, so in the end the BO are happy. Kir appears to be loyal to the BO.
The FBI wonder who the other body is. Jodie takes Conan's phone she thinks has Akai's fingerprints on it (really Rikumichi's) to the police and it matches one of the bodies. The police probably would not clarify to Jodie which of the two bodies it matched, but even if they did, Jodie thinks they are Akai's fingerprints which means Akai is dead. The FBI figure out later the other body is Rikumichi's because it went missing. However, the FBI have no idea what Shuuichi was doing with the body because the disguise was burnt up and Akai never told them his secret plan. The FBI are confused, but Akai is dead, so in the end the FBI are sad.
Conan knows two bodies means the plan failed and Akai is dead. He is sad.
[/quote]
O.K. but it does not make sense ( Based if the plan failed) .
That the Org. thinks there is something wrong with the other body on the car , they will think if really there is one ( still hiding inside) and might attack Kir after killing akai which doesn't make sense . Then , they will think he was someone from their side who lost contact with him and is Rikumichi then will be here two options otherwise Kusuda has already betrayed the Org and follows the FBI due to hopeless fate (which not the case and somewhat difficult to occur based on his loyalty that showed to have strong allegiance to Org ) or Akai really killed him or killed himself which the most probable case . Then the Org more likely will the other body is really the BO member who lost contact with which more likely the (died Rikumichi ) then they might think that akai try to dress him up to look like akai ( which makes more sense for the Org) . Therefore something wrong goes with predictions about being asked to be shown up and killed by Kir , so Kir really didn't have any option unless kill him for real. Therefore , Kir will really still loyal to the Org , but they didn't think that akai could left someone behind him ( or he sacrificed himself for this or not)
------- flashback to episode 497 , when Gin said they found out Kir hideout , that ( I don't know why THAT PERSON worrying about him (means akai) , why not the boss at least think about this plan that akai could do , although we Kir went back more high ups like Gin and of course the Boss that recovering Kir is too easy , so Kir is with akai in some way , then it will make sense when seeing two bodies on the track that Kir and Akai planned such a trick for Org to fake his death.
Therefore , It will be easier to left Kir with Org and akai don't show up and left her being killed .
Therefore , If the case that akai really killed and two bodies were exposed . Then at least for the boss sense he/she has to be the smartest guy on the Org and he will think about this plan and akai has sacrificed himself to feed information to the FBI regardless of .
The FBI wonder who the other body is. Jodie takes Conan's phone she thinks has Akai's fingerprints on it (really Rikumichi's) to the police and it matches one of the bodies. The police probably would not clarify to Jodie which of the two bodies it matched, but even if they did, Jodie thinks they are Akai's fingerprints which means Akai is dead. The FBI figure out later the other body is Rikumichi's because it went missing. However, the FBI have no idea what Shuuichi was doing with the body because the disguise was burnt up and Akai never told them his secret plan. The FBI are confused, but Akai is dead, so in the end the FBI are sad.
Conan knows two bodies means the plan failed and Akai is dead. He is sad.
[/quote]
O.K. but it does not make sense ( Based if the plan failed) .
That the Org. thinks there is something wrong with the other body on the car , they will think if really there is one ( still hiding inside) and might attack Kir after killing akai which doesn't make sense . Then , they will think he was someone from their side who lost contact with him and is Rikumichi then will be here two options otherwise Kusuda has already betrayed the Org and follows the FBI due to hopeless fate (which not the case and somewhat difficult to occur based on his loyalty that showed to have strong allegiance to Org ) or Akai really killed him or killed himself which the most probable case . Then the Org more likely will the other body is really the BO member who lost contact with which more likely the (died Rikumichi ) then they might think that akai try to dress him up to look like akai ( which makes more sense for the Org) . Therefore something wrong goes with predictions about being asked to be shown up and killed by Kir , so Kir really didn't have any option unless kill him for real. Therefore , Kir will really still loyal to the Org , but they didn't think that akai could left someone behind him ( or he sacrificed himself for this or not)
------- flashback to episode 497 , when Gin said they found out Kir hideout , that ( I don't know why THAT PERSON worrying about him (means akai) , why not the boss at least think about this plan that akai could do , although we Kir went back more high ups like Gin and of course the Boss that recovering Kir is too easy , so Kir is with akai in some way , then it will make sense when seeing two bodies on the track that Kir and Akai planned such a trick for Org to fake his death.
Therefore , It will be easier to left Kir with Org and akai don't show up and left her being killed .
Therefore , If the case that akai really killed and two bodies were exposed . Then at least for the boss sense he/she has to be the smartest guy on the Org and he will think about this plan and akai has sacrificed himself to feed information to the FBI regardless of .
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I am not sure what you are saying is problematic.NiderMine wrote: O.K. but it does not make sense ( Based if the plan failed) .
That the Org. thinks there is something wrong with the other body on the car , they will think if really there is one ( still hiding inside) and might attack Kir after killing akai which doesn't make sense . Then , they will think he was someone from their side who lost contact with him and is Rikumichi then will be here two options otherwise Kusuda has already betrayed the Org and follows the FBI due to hopeless fate (which not the case and somewhat difficult to occur based on his loyalty that showed to have strong allegiance to Org ) or Akai really killed him or killed himself which the most probable case . Then the Org more likely will the other body is really the BO member who lost contact with which more likely the (died Rikumichi ) then they might think that akai try to dress him up to look like akai ( which makes more sense for the Org) . Therefore something wrong goes with predictions about being asked to be shown up and killed by Kir , so Kir really didn't have any option unless kill him for real. Therefore , Kir will really still loyal to the Org , but they didn't think that akai could left someone behind him ( or he sacrificed himself for this or not)
------- flashback to episode 497 , when Gin said they found out Kir hideout , that ( I don't know why THAT PERSON worrying about him (means akai) , why not the boss at least think about this plan that akai could do , although we Kir went back more high ups like Gin and of course the Boss that recovering Kir is too easy , so Kir is with akai in some way , then it will make sense when seeing two bodies on the track that Kir and Akai planned such a trick for Org to fake his death.
Therefore , It will be easier to left Kir with Org and akai don't show up and left her being killed .
Therefore , If the case that akai really killed and two bodies were exposed . Then at least for the boss sense he/she has to be the smartest guy on the Org and he will think about this plan and akai has sacrificed himself to feed information to the FBI regardless of .
It looks like you went through the same logic I did about the Black Organization coming to the conclusion that the second body is Rikumichi. Remember, the bomb and fire afterward would likely thoroughly destroy the clothes the body was wearing. (That is what appeared to happen with "Akai's" body and most burned bodies in the series.) You said the boss could somehow guess the body might have been disguised ("then they might think that akai try to dress him up to look like akai ( which makes more sense for the Org)"), but you didn't explain what would lead the boss to this conclusion versus other conclusions like Akai was transporting the body when he was called out. The boss's logic needs to be carefully considered first before declaring there is a contradiction.
When the boss and Gin designed the plan for Kir to kill Akai, they either thought she would kill him which means she is loyal, or they thought that she wouldn't kill him which means she is disloyal. This binary thinking seems too simplistic for the boss, but you have to remember all the circumstances.
From the Organization's point of view, in FBI vs Org, the FBI deliberately aimed for and captured Kir. (They didn't know the FBI made a mistake and were targeting Vermouth instead.) This must mean Kir is not on the side of the Americans because why would they capture one of their own people? (They know about the FBI, but does the Org even know the CIA is targeting them? The Org has never mentioned it.) Kir also killed a spy in past as well, to her credit. (The boss never figured out Ethan Hondou's trick.) Therefore it seems unlikely that Kir and Akai would be allies to begin with, so the chances of them happily working together (instead of the FBI coercing her) would be low.
Just in case there was something the boss didn't anticipate about Kir, he came up with a plan that no ally of the FBI would want to go through with. Akai is the FBI's most valuable agent; killing him would deal a serious blow to the FBI's talent. Short of killing all the FBI, killing Akai would be the worst thing you could do to them. In addition Gin/the boss chose the situation, location, time, and weapon, and Kir was given a camera collar. They didn't think that Akai would be able use tricks to escape.
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" In addition Gin/the boss chose the situation, location, time, and weapon, and Kir was given a camera collar. They didn't think that Akai would be able use tricks to escape. "
Gin/the boss choose the weapon in order to do this they have to give Kir it Pistol with real cartridges to avoid using the alternative which is the blank cartridges. Even there will be any problem for Kir to use real cartridges instead because the Org might look at here clothes If it hiding anything that looks suspicious since they but all kind of bugs and guards follow her any place so at this extent it will be good enough for BO (which is the logic has to say) that Kir will not apply any sort of tricks in order for Akai to survive.
Secondly from the FBI side , what's wrong for akai to wear bullet-proof vest to protect himself to protect himself from chest fire , and then put the fake blood packets at the top of it , and what's wrong for Kir to shot akai in head might the camera didn't show when Rena tilted a bit to the angle which is natural to shoot in the forehead at blank-point range using one hand to do so , then there will be any trouble . Regardless of what we were talked about earlier about plan being messed up which is already discussed ( Forgot about that).
I think this sort of important stuff that both of them though about I am wrong?
Gin/the boss choose the weapon in order to do this they have to give Kir it Pistol with real cartridges to avoid using the alternative which is the blank cartridges. Even there will be any problem for Kir to use real cartridges instead because the Org might look at here clothes If it hiding anything that looks suspicious since they but all kind of bugs and guards follow her any place so at this extent it will be good enough for BO (which is the logic has to say) that Kir will not apply any sort of tricks in order for Akai to survive.
Secondly from the FBI side , what's wrong for akai to wear bullet-proof vest to protect himself to protect himself from chest fire , and then put the fake blood packets at the top of it , and what's wrong for Kir to shot akai in head might the camera didn't show when Rena tilted a bit to the angle which is natural to shoot in the forehead at blank-point range using one hand to do so , then there will be any trouble . Regardless of what we were talked about earlier about plan being messed up which is already discussed ( Forgot about that).
I think this sort of important stuff that both of them though about I am wrong?
- Chekhov MacGuffin
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If the boss suspected Kir was that intent on doing a trick, he would have ordered her to die without the fuss. There is no point in dealing with someone that doubtful. If you are interested, I think I answered some of the questions you are asking in this Q&A.NiderMine wrote: " In addition Gin/the boss chose the situation, location, time, and weapon, and Kir was given a camera collar. They didn't think that Akai would be able use tricks to escape. "
Gin/the boss choose the weapon in order to do this they have to give Kir it Pistol with real cartridges to avoid using the alternative which is the blank cartridges. Even there will be any problem for Kir to use real cartridges instead because the Org might look at here clothes If it hiding anything that looks suspicious since they but all kind of bugs and guards follow her any place so at this extent it will be good enough for BO (which is the logic has to say) that Kir will not apply any sort of tricks in order for Akai to survive.
Secondly from the FBI side , what's wrong for akai to wear bullet-proof vest to protect himself to protect himself from chest fire , and then put the fake blood packets at the top of it , and what's wrong for Kir to shot akai in head might the camera didn't show when Rena tilted a bit to the angle which is natural to shoot in the forehead at blank-point range using one hand to do so , then there will be any trouble . Regardless of what we were talked about earlier about plan being messed up which is already discussed ( Forgot about that).
I think this sort of important stuff that both of them though about I am wrong?
Note to self, if this discussion continues, ask about boss's logic again since that was not answered.
As for the second part of your response, what Akai could have done slightly differently doesn't matter; what actually happened matters most. The BO was convinced Kir killed Akai despite them not doing the things you suggest. Gin was fooled. Bourbon, who looked at the files on Akai's death with Vermouth's permission, was fooled. We know from Vermouth's assessment of the boss's personality that he is not the type of person who would let traitors hang out in the Organization, especially ones who can successfully continue to pass correct information. That strongly suggests the boss was fooled.
So, to answer your question, Kir could have done things differently or Akai could have come up with another way to be realistically "shot" by blank bullets while wearing a bullet proof vest, but turned out not to be necessary because Kir, Akai, and Conan's conspiracy worked anyway.
Edit: Rereading your post it looks like you are trying to find a way for Kir to avoid using blank bullets. Having Akai use some sort of armor against the chest shot is possible, but would have to be done in such a way that Gin wouldn't notice he is wearing it. (There would be a contradiction between the damage Akai appeared to take and the presence of the armor) Akai was able to tell Vermouth was wearing a ballistic vest by how she was moving. Gin probably has that skill too. That needs to be considered.
The real problem comes with the headshot. Kir was at close range and Akai was pressed up against the truck with the passenger side door open. For Kir to miss, the bullet will have to strike the truck on the inside or pass through the driver's side window if Akai had it rolled down. (can't tell about that). I don't know if Kir is tilted far enough for Akai not to show at the moment of the shot - she is tilted a little, but not much.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 11th, 2013, 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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When will the Detective Conan manga series end?
File 002
File 462
Gosho said the series shouldn't reach 100 volumes and he still has to finish Magic Kaito
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Last edited by Pandora12 on February 12th, 2013, 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"I don't know if Kir is tilted far enough for Akai not to show at the moment of the shot - she is tilted a little, but not much. "Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:If the boss suspected Kir was that intent on doing a trick, he would have ordered her to die without the fuss. There is no point in dealing with someone that doubtful. If you are interested, I think I answered some of the questions you are asking in this Q&A.NiderMine wrote: " In addition Gin/the boss chose the situation, location, time, and weapon, and Kir was given a camera collar. They didn't think that Akai would be able use tricks to escape. "
Gin/the boss choose the weapon in order to do this they have to give Kir it Pistol with real cartridges to avoid using the alternative which is the blank cartridges. Even there will be any problem for Kir to use real cartridges instead because the Org might look at here clothes If it hiding anything that looks suspicious since they but all kind of bugs and guards follow her any place so at this extent it will be good enough for BO (which is the logic has to say) that Kir will not apply any sort of tricks in order for Akai to survive.
Secondly from the FBI side , what's wrong for akai to wear bullet-proof vest to protect himself to protect himself from chest fire , and then put the fake blood packets at the top of it , and what's wrong for Kir to shot akai in head might the camera didn't show when Rena tilted a bit to the angle which is natural to shoot in the forehead at blank-point range using one hand to do so , then there will be any trouble . Regardless of what we were talked about earlier about plan being messed up which is already discussed ( Forgot about that).
I think this sort of important stuff that both of them though about I am wrong?
Note to self, if this discussion continues, ask about boss's logic again since that was not answered.
As for the second part of your response, what Akai could have done slightly differently doesn't matter; what actually happened matters most. The BO was convinced Kir killed Akai despite them not doing the things you suggest. Gin was fooled. Bourbon, who looked at the files on Akai's death with Vermouth's permission, was fooled. We know from Vermouth's assessment of the boss's personality that he is not the type of person who would let traitors hang out in the Organization, especially ones who can successfully continue to pass correct information. That strongly suggests the boss was fooled.
So, to answer your question, Kir could have done things differently or Akai could have come up with another way to be realistically "shot" by blank bullets while wearing a bullet proof vest, but turned out not to be necessary because Kir, Akai, and Conan's conspiracy worked anyway.
Edit: Rereading your post it looks like you are trying to find a way for Kir to avoid using blank bullets. Having Akai use some sort of armor against the chest shot is possible, but would have to be done in such a way that Gin wouldn't notice he is wearing it. (There would be a contradiction between the damage Akai appeared to take and the presence of the armor) Akai was able to tell Vermouth was wearing a ballistic vest by how she was moving. Gin probably has that skill too. That needs to be considered.
The real problem comes with the headshot. Kir was at close range and Akai was pressed up against the truck with the passenger side door open. For Kir to miss, the bullet will have to strike the truck on the inside or pass through the driver's side window if Akai had it rolled down. (can't tell about that). I don't know if Kir is tilted far enough for Akai not to show at the moment of the shot - she is tilted a little, but not much.
He must not be shown at the moment of shot otherwise fake death cannot be guaranteed ( so when it is translated Akai really wanted to die anyway then.
Aside from that , Kir really can tilt enough to camouflage the shoting I have some personal theory about this one .That Kir when Akai wil tilt the gun (higher) or to the sky when shoots then akai can be survived without even leaving any trace from muzzle blast ( As noticed in file 824 ).
Last edited by NiderMine on February 21st, 2013, 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The art shows Kir did not tilt her gun upwards in order to miss. It was level with Akai's head at the moment of the shot.NiderMine wrote: "I don't know if Kir is tilted far enough for Akai not to show at the moment of the shot - she is tilted a little, but not much. "
He must not be shown at the moment of shot otherwise fake death cannot be guaranteed ( so when it is translated Akai really wanted to die anyway then.
Aside from that , Kir really can tilt enough to camouflage the shoting I have some personal theory about this one .That Kir when Akai wil tilt the gun (higher) or to the sky when shoots then akai can be survived without even leaving any trace from muzzle blast ( As noticed in file 824 ).
Spoiler:
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Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:The art shows Kir did not tilt her gun upwards in order to miss. It was level with Akai's head at the moment of the shot.NiderMine wrote: "I don't know if Kir is tilted far enough for Akai not to show at the moment of the shot - she is tilted a little, but not much. "
He must not be shown at the moment of shot otherwise fake death cannot be guaranteed ( so when it is translated Akai really wanted to die anyway then.
Aside from that , Kir really can tilt enough to camouflage the shoting I have some personal theory about this one .That Kir when Akai wil tilt the gun (higher) or to the sky when shoots then akai can be survived without even leaving any trace from muzzle blast ( As noticed in file 824 ).I honestly believe that Kir was facing Akai closely enough for the shot to be seen on camera. In the next panel, you can see Kir was facing nearly forwards. She seems to have lowered the gun slightly, but she is still in the same stance that she was in while firing the gun. I think using real bullets and aiming away would not have worked with how close she was to Akai and the camera angle. Gin would notice her aim was off. That's why I stick to the argument that she used blanks despite its flaws - I believe that explanation most closely matches with the art and the circumstances.Spoiler:
Spoiler: manga
Last edited by Conia on February 22nd, 2013, 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NiderMine wrote:Spoiler: manga
Spoiler: manga train
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on February 23rd, 2013, 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:NiderMine wrote:Spoiler: mangaSpoiler: manga train
Spoiler:
Last edited by NiderMine on February 24th, 2013, 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Does Gin ever sit together with Anokata in a table and they drink coffee ?
Or Gin never meet him but he only heard his voice through his phone?
Vermouth seems where the boss resides especially after her confrontation in the car with conan in episode 345 ,when she confronted the FBI.
Or Gin never meet him but he only heard his voice through his phone?
Vermouth seems where the boss resides especially after her confrontation in the car with conan in episode 345 ,when she confronted the FBI.
Last edited by NiderMine on March 2nd, 2013, 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I don't know if this was ever answered but, in Volume 45, chapter 458 Conan wonders to himself why Vermouth didn't immediately find Haibara out when she disguised as Dr. Araide and began working at Teitan Elementary. Since Vermouth figured out that Sherry had shrunk into a child, all she had to do once she began working at Teitan Elementary was to ask about any recent transfer students and she would have tracked down Haibara immediately, so Conan wonders to himself why didn't she notice Haibara right away?
The Viz translation of Conan's thoughts were this: "Come to think of it, the fake Dr. Araide worked at Teitan Elementary too... if she [Vermouth] suspected that Anita (actually Haibara, Viz changed a few names) had turned into a kid like me, why didn't she notice her at Teitan Elementary? A new transfer student would've been a huge red flag, so why didn't she know?"
Did we ever get an answer to this?
The Viz translation of Conan's thoughts were this: "Come to think of it, the fake Dr. Araide worked at Teitan Elementary too... if she [Vermouth] suspected that Anita (actually Haibara, Viz changed a few names) had turned into a kid like me, why didn't she notice her at Teitan Elementary? A new transfer student would've been a huge red flag, so why didn't she know?"
Did we ever get an answer to this?
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I'm not sure if this totally explains it, but he might have been wondering why she looked in the high school as well as the elementary school, which could be because of the attachment she has to Ran? I'm not really sure about this either, though.Kudo Shinchi wrote: I don't know if this was ever answered but, in Volume 45, chapter 458 Conan wonders to himself why Vermouth didn't immediately find Haibara out when she disguised as Dr. Araide and began working at Teitan Elementary. Since Vermouth figured out that Sherry had shrunk into a child, all she had to do once she began working at Teitan Elementary was to ask about any recent transfer students and she would have tracked down Haibara immediately, so Conan wonders to himself why didn't she notice Haibara right away?
The Viz translation of Conan's thoughts were this: "Come to think of it, the fake Dr. Araide worked at Teitan Elementary too... if she [Vermouth] suspected that Anita (actually Haibara, Viz changed a few names) had turned into a kid like me, why didn't she notice her at Teitan Elementary? A new transfer student would've been a huge red flag, so why didn't she know?"
Did we ever get an answer to this?
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