Shinichi+Ran

[Kor]

@ziraulo: I think he will not forgive himself if anybody get hurt now.... as the "Moonlight Sonata" and "Akemi/Masami's death" had a great impact on him

define "great impact" please. I don't remember any episode after these cases in which he remembered the case and it was shown how it "impacted" him so much. And he couldn't even remember Masami's name good enough to connect between Haibara and that woman (Akemi).

[ziraulo]

@kanata09: I agree with you. Seriously, shounen mangaka.....I would've been into shoujo if it just wasn't so girly....

err....please define the "great impact" thing? sorry, I pick up things in a reeeaaalllyyy slow pace...not to mention Kor's reasoning...

As for your "She doesn't need Shinichi" thing, this is all I have to say:

No (wo)man is an island. Everyone needs some socialization (one of my recently learned life lessons). Not to mention it would be hard for her to lose Shinichi, since they've been through so much...

Spoiler:

And I think the "Kappa" is the dead guy! 

[Nyarl]

@ziraulo: I think he will not forgive himself if anybody get hurt now.... as the "Moonlight Sonata" and "Akemi/Masami's death" had a great impact on him

define "great impact" please. I don't remember any episode after these cases in which he remembered the case and it was shown how it "impacted" him so much. And he couldn't even remember Masami's name good enough to connect between Haibara and that woman (Akemi).

The case from volume 15 file 10 through volume 16 file 3 (episode 77-78, Distinguished Family's Consecutive Accidental Death Case* has Conan remembering Moonlight Sonata as he talks to Heiji about preventing a culprit's suicide. Conan tells Heiji that a detective who lets a person cornered by his deduction commit suicide is no better than a murderer.

* Shaky translation of a long title IMO, from Wikipedia. It's originally å

[Kor]

@ziraulo: I think he will not forgive himself if anybody get hurt now.... as the "Moonlight Sonata" and "Akemi/Masami's death" had a great impact on him

define "great impact" please. I don't remember any episode after these cases in which he remembered the case and it was shown how it "impacted" him so much. And he couldn't even remember Masami's name good enough to connect between Haibara and that woman (Akemi).

The case from volume 15 file 10 through volume 16 file 3 (episode 77-78, Distinguished Family's Consecutive Accidental Death Case* has Conan remembering Moonlight Sonata as he talks to Heiji about preventing a culprit's suicide. Conan tells Heiji that a detective who lets a person cornered by his deduction commit suicide is no better than a murderer.

* Shaky translation of a long title IMO, from Wikipedia. It's originally å

[Nyarl]

@ziraulo: I think he will not forgive himself if anybody get hurt now.... as the "Moonlight Sonata" and "Akemi/Masami's death" had a great impact on him

define "great impact" please. I don't remember any episode after these cases in which he remembered the case and it was shown how it "impacted" him so much. And he couldn't even remember Masami's name good enough to connect between Haibara and that woman (Akemi).

The case from volume 15 file 10 through volume 16 file 3 (episode 77-78, Distinguished Family's Consecutive Accidental Death Case* has Conan remembering Moonlight Sonata as he talks to Heiji about preventing a culprit's suicide. Conan tells Heiji that a detective who lets a person cornered by his deduction commit suicide is no better than a murderer.

* Shaky translation of a long title IMO, from Wikipedia. It's originally å

[kanata09]

@ziraulo: I think he will not forgive himself if anybody get hurt now.... as the "Moonlight Sonata" and "Akemi/Masami's death" had a great impact on him

define "great impact" please. I don't remember any episode after these cases in which he remembered the case and it was shown how it "impacted" him so much. And he couldn't even remember Masami's name good enough to connect between Haibara and that woman (Akemi).

The case from volume 15 file 10 through volume 16 file 3 (episode 77-78, Distinguished Family's Consecutive Accidental Death Case* has Conan remembering Moonlight Sonata as he talks to Heiji about preventing a culprit's suicide. Conan tells Heiji that a detective who lets a person cornered by his deduction commit suicide is no better than a murderer.

* Shaky translation of a long title IMO, from Wikipedia. It's originally å

[Kor]

Every time Conan goes out of his way to stop a suicide or protect the feelings of an unwitting accomplice we should probably take for granted that he's influenced by the events of Moonlight Sonata

ehh...no. How many times did he say "Sorry, but as a super hero detective, I can't allow you to commit suicide and you have to take responsibility for what you have done"? It's what he believes in and not from any kind of influence. He thinks a criminal should be in jail for what he has done and not run away by taking away his own life. It's Conan's fault on occasions to lead the culprit into commiting suicides as well, but Conan doesn't care about that until he reveals who the murderer was. If Gosho intends us to take something for granted...well...it's like saying "I'm lazy to do this and that, so just pretend that every time that Conan does "this", he is doing it because he did "that thing" in the past."

It was said before (and not by me, but I think so as well) that Conan is not a good main character and he can't be related to. Whatever is realistic/human about Conan on occasions, I can't see it because of his usual unrealistic and inhuman nature.

Honestly, you griping self-proclaimed writers need to actually read the manga sometime.

I'm going to take that as an insult. I read it, but to go for every bit of word (for cases I already know and watched) while I have college, try to be a good flute player and write the best book, it is not possible. Manga should be in the least of my interests right now actually.
a manga can't be compared with a book. In a book we have a lot of words and if a character does an action which is influenced by something from the past, it should be written. Manga is different, you have a limit for every file, but something like that is still important and if Gosho didn't do it then he probably didn't mean it. He doesn't want us to guess after all. He leaves hints and he wants us to "solve the mystery"
But even before I started to write, Conan isn't a good character. Ran is, Haibara is, but Conan isn't a character I can like.

[scineram]

It was said before (and not by me, but I think so as well) that Conan is not a good main character and he can't be related to. Whatever is realistic/human about Conan on occasions, I can't see it because of his usual unrealistic and inhuman nature.

I agree.

But even before I started to write, Conan isn't a good character. Ran is, Haibara is, but Conan isn't a character I can like.

Isn't Ran similarly unrealistic somewhat, as it was discussed not long ago? Especially her recent development.

[Nyarl]

Every time Conan goes out of his way to stop a suicide or protect the feelings of an unwitting accomplice we should probably take for granted that he's influenced by the events of Moonlight Sonata

ehh...no. How many times did he say "Sorry, but as a super hero detective, I can't allow you to commit suicide and you have to take responsibility for what you have done"?

How about never in canon with plenty of direct evidence that he can't possibly think that way?

Honestly, you griping self-proclaimed writers need to actually read the manga sometime.

I'm going to take that as an insult. I read it, but to go for every bit of word (for cases I already know and watched) while I have college, try to be a good flute player and write the best book, it is not possible. Manga should be in the least of my interests right now actually.

Fine. It's a long manga. So maybe it's not reasonable to expect you to throughly know what you are writing about. It's a bit obnoxious to take pot shots at the manga-ka when you are arguing from self-formed caricature rather than any reasonable interpretation of the actual material, though.

Life is much more important to Shin'ichi than law or justice. We've seen repeated examples of this, from his highly illegal evidence/witness tampering cover up of the maid's unwitting role in the Araide case to the times he's kept quiet and let the victim forgive the culprit rather than report things to the police (Soccer Blackmail, Scuba Diving, Idols' Secret (where he also saved a suicidal culprit)).

And, back to the original argument, Moonlight Sonata also impacted the first Osaka case, because Heiji says he was inspired to stop that suicide, at the cost of getting shot himself,  by what Conan told him in 16.3.

[mangaluva]

Every time Conan goes out of his way to stop a suicide or protect the feelings of an unwitting accomplice we should probably take for granted that he's influenced by the events of Moonlight Sonata

ehh...no. How many times did he say "Sorry, but as a super hero detective, I can't allow you to commit suicide and you have to take responsibility for what you have done"?

How about never in canon with plenty of direct evidence that he can't possibly think that way?

He generally refuses to allow suspects to die. In the case in the mansion where the secretary was the killer (dammit I can't remember any of the names!) he outright tells Heiji that it's wrong to allow a suspect to die, as it puts the detective on the same level as the murderer; in the case with Yoko's old pop idol group, he performs vital first aid for saving the attemtped murderer, thinking "I won't let you die!" The first time he's even thinking of Seiji. He was hurt by his inability to save Seiji, although that's the only time he's had a direct flashback to that event, it's still clear that his general thinking is that murderers should have to face up to what they've done.

Honestly, you griping self-proclaimed writers need to actually read the manga sometime.

I'm going to take that as an insult. I read it, but to go for every bit of word (for cases I already know and watched) while I have college, try to be a good flute player and write the best book, it is not possible. Manga should be in the least of my interests right now actually.

Fine. It's a long manga. So maybe it's not reasonable to expect you to throughly know what you are writing about. It's a bit obnoxious to take pot shots at the manga-ka when you are arguing from self-formed caricature rather than any reasonable interpretation of the actual material, though.

Life is much more important to Shin'ichi than law or justice. We've seen repeated examples of this, from his highly illegal evidence/witness tampering cover up of the maid's unwitting role in the Araide case to the times he's kept quiet and let the victim forgive the culprit rather than report things to the police (Soccer Blackmail, Scuba Diving, Idols' Secret (where he also saved a suicidal culprit)).

And, back to the original argument, Moonlight Sonata also impacted the first Osaka case, because Heiji says he was inspired to stop that suicide, at the cost of getting shot himself,  by what Conan told him in 16.3.

A slightly more insulting than necessary way of saying that you should do your research before you argue, but a decent point even if it could be politer. I think Shinichi's sense of justice is stronger than his sense of law, and he doesnt' consider it just for the murderers to kill themselves; he wants them to seriously realize what they've done, which they can't do if they're dead. He will indulge in illegal practices for the sake of saving lives; the lives are more important than anything. Heiji was different because he got his sense of justice from a police officer rather than a mystery writer/amateur detective with a demonstrably odd sense of humour, but since Shinichi's such a role model for him he has adopted this belief of life first. Which really, I think is a good thing. They both really appreciate the value of life.

[Kor]

Life is much more important to Shin'ichi than law or justice. We've seen repeated examples of this, from his highly illegal evidence/witness tampering cover up of the maid's unwitting role in the Araide case to the times he's kept quiet and let the victim forgive the culprit rather than report things to the police (Soccer Blackmail, Scuba Diving, Idols' Secret (where he also saved a suicidal culprit)).

so...the reason he did this: http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/1/07/ (kicking a globe at an old man) is because he values life more than law or justice? Could the police really not catch an old man running away that he HAD to kick a large object at an old man who might (in real life and/or in DC) be seriously injured? Same for his shoes and the balls he is kicking. People might be seriously injured by these things, but he uses them in order to catch the criminals. So he values life, but injuring people in order to catch them and bring them to justice is A-OK?

[kirite]

I think she's also much more likely to interfere destructively and unpredictably if she thinks she's protecting Conan from some vague threat than if she knew the truth.

I agree. By acting on her own devices involves Ran storming to Jodie's place BY HERSELF while suspecting Jodie of being a dangerous criminal.  We all know the result of that one (jumping in front of bullets).  Being ignorant isn't "safer" at all.

---

so...the reason he did this: http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/1/07/ (kicking a globe at an old man) is because he values life more than law or justice? Could the police really not catch an old man running away that he HAD to kick a large object at an old man who might (in real life and/or in DC) be seriously injured? Same for his shoes and the balls he is kicking. People might be seriously injured by these things, but he uses them in order to catch the criminals. So he values life, but injuring people in order to catch them and bring them to justice is A-OK?

Hurting an old man (who seems quite fit by the way he committed the crime) isn't a must.  However it helps diminish the chance of the culprit escaping.  He probably didn't have any police stationed outside, and the owner of the house would probably know his house better then they do.  The culprit may always take a hostage if he wish.  Iunno, many possibilities where that can go.  Shinichi is really obnoxious back then, he probably wanted to catch the culprit himself because it's more satisfying (goal <3!).

If Shinichi wanted something to seriously injure I don't think he would use a soccer ball.  He'll try to kick their face in with soccer shoes or something (like the chapter where he thought Ran was dating a scum bag xD).

[ziraulo]

uhh...guys, I think everyone who got soccer balled actually lived. Or rot in jail, at least.

[Kor]

so...the reason he did this: http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/1/07/ (kicking a globe at an old man) is because he values life more than law or justice? Could the police really not catch an old man running away that he HAD to kick a large object at an old man who might (in real life and/or in DC) be seriously injured? Same for his shoes and the balls he is kicking. People might be seriously injured by these things, but he uses them in order to catch the criminals. So he values life, but injuring people in order to catch them and bring them to justice is A-OK?

Hurting an old man (who seems quite fit by the way he committed the crime) isn't a must.  However it helps diminish the chance of the culprit escaping.  He probably didn't have any police stationed outside, and the owner of the house would probably know his house better then they do.  The culprit may always take a hostage if he wish.  Iunno, many possibilities where that can go.  Shinichi is really obnoxious back then, he probably wanted to catch the culprit himself because it's more satisfying (goal <3!).

If Shinichi wanted something to seriously injure I don't think he would use a soccer ball.  He'll try to kick their face in with soccer shoes or something (like the chapter where he thought Ran was dating a scum bag xD).

A detective needs to reveal who the culprit is, not arrest the culprit or chase after him - especially not a high school detective. Seriously, he could get sued for every time he hurts someone.
Let's assume the culprit hurt someone and ran away. Later, Shinichi discovers who the culprit is and in order to catch him, he kicks something at him - injuring him as well. Shinichi isn't the police, so how is it different? Shinichi is doing it for justice but...he doesn't have such authority - he THINKS he has such authirity.
Let's take a look at something which isn't canon for DC, but is canon for MK. Shinichi took Megure's gun and shot the curtein to reveal Kid and the clock - I don't see how an action like that makes him value life over justice/law. He could have hurt Kaito Kid. Not to mention in real life, be arrested for taking an officer's gun.

uhh...guys, I think everyone who got soccer balled actually lived. Or rot in jail, at least.

That's not the point.

[Abs.]

Shinichi has a can-get-away-with-anything card, just like the police have a so-dumb-they-need-help-tying-their-shoes card, and the culprits have instantly-smart-so-that-we-can-have-a-plot card.