*SPOILER FREE* Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 825-

[kuro_shiro]

is it me or is a spoon should be there in last panel?

Spoiler:

What? I sometimes eat ice cream with a fork..but that knife. You can't cut a cake with a knife like that.

Agreed

sure you can, it's ice cream cake.

ask yourself ,if you are fatso and going to satisfy your hunger by eating a big icecream cake alone, will you take  a spoon or a knife ? (forget the fork)

i will take a spoon maybe even a fork but i would definitely won't take the knife.



note it down : it could be a clue or chekhov's gun


PS:this is dc where only coincidence  is deaths around conan

[aly_angelflight]

Spoiler: Partial deduction...

I think the melted ice cream cake is supposed to be hint to exactly when he died. No one has claimed to have seen him downstairs after he went up with Conan, so he had to have taken the ice cream cake up before lunch. The fact that he didn't finish it means that something prevented him from doing so, which more likely than not is his death. Now, who all went upstairs before lunch? Conan, Ishiguri, and Kotone for certain, and most likely Ran and Sonoko as well. (Ran and Sonoko may have possibly gone to give Conan his lunch after they ate lunch, but that would be rather out-of-character of Ran as far as I'm concerned.)

Either way, the only person to go upstairs other than the victim and Conan prior to Sonoko and Ran was Kotone. If Ran's comment about the AC being better in Ishiguri's room is indeed a hint that someone used dried ice or regular ice to create the illusion of a locked room mystery, Kotone is the only one who could've been the culprit, and she was likely lying about losing the spare key to Ishiguri's room so she wouldn't be suspected.

[leokiko]

Blah. It's Kotone-san. If not, then the other chick. At least we know that there is no way it's the dude.

Is it just me or Machi-san lied? She went to the room twice, one before and other after showering, but when she went to warn him she was going to shower(so that he wouldn't walk in on her), she went alone. And yet, she said she was "always with somebody else".

Am I seeing things?

[Aran]

I've got an idea of sorts. Someone else probbly already picked up on it.

Spoiler:

So, The AC was on in this room when conan went up. After the murder the AC is off, the cake is melty and it's very hot. There was water in the vase. I believe that the water was frozen in order to set up the vase falling.  I'm not entirely certain how the trick was done, but for now I'm going to guess it was simply balenced on the edge? That could work because a vase full of ice is way easier to balence than a vase full of water... Still though it would be a rather awkward trick.

I still don't quite know on the who or the how. Just on that trick.

As for the knife, Not feeling the relevence vibes. Besides, I cut cake with any knife I can find.... or simply with the handle of a fork or spoon.... Either way, I don't think it will be relevent. we shall see though.

[Giogio]

Hmm, to in my chemist's eyes that solution looks strange.

Spoiler: Just in case

I think ice is slippery because it has a thin layer of melted water on it. Dry ice, though, turns directly into gas when "melting". It shouldn't be slippery enough to push a body around. Not without leaving scratches on the floor. Well, you could argue that the surface where it touches the floor will become relatively even, but still...

Also, the frozen sports drink... Supercooled water is a cool idea, but you need a very clean bottle and distilled water for that. A sports drink won't work, I think.

But, Amuro looking super-dangerous makes the file worth a lot

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Hmm, to in my chemist's eyes that solution looks strange.

I think ice is slippery because it has a thin layer of melted water on it. Dry ice, though, turns directly into gas when "melting". It shouldn't be slippery enough to push a body around. Not without leaving scratches on the floor. Well, you could argue that the surface where it touches the floor will become relatively even, but still...

From personal experience, the gas that has sublimated from the warm contact points underneath creates pockets that act as cushions of air and allow sliding. It works better when the dry ice is already smooth. I never tried to apply that much weight to a dry ice cube though, so it could be difficult to slide and scraping might result. I'd have to try.

Bonus trivia: putting warm metal on dry ice makes a decent screaming sound.

Also, the frozen sports drink... Supercooled water is a cool idea, but you need a very clean bottle and distilled water for that. A sports drink won't work, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92dprVl5bl0
You can do it with beer too.

I don't understand why the chick would hide it in her own drink though. She thought ahead by taking it and preparing a cold sports drink, so why would she just not wipe off her prints with the guy's shirt, press his fingers on it which are still oily enough to leave prints, and leave it on the body, or drop it in the blood? It was already made a locked room by sliding the body over in front of the door. She could say the victim took the key, or found it. She didn't have to hide it in her things anyway. Why not flush it or put it down the sink in a room everyone visited, like the shower or kitchen? If the police are going to search the pipes, they must already think it was a murder, not a suicide, so a printless key wouldn't help much.

As for the victim's death, is it really that easy to get completely trapped in in 2 meters of freshly fallen snow? Thoughts from cold climate forumers?

Spoiler: copypasta from DCW

While Amuro seems to suspect Conan is the one making sleeping Kogoro, I also wonder if he thinks that Conan is being used by someone: someone has given Conan gadgets, is telling Conan what to do, and is making deductions through Conan/Kogoro. The only reason I suggest this option as a possible alternative to Conan being the sole person behind Sleeping Kogoro is that Amuro may still be looking for a way to insert Akai into the situation. Even though, I think the deduction that Conan is the mastermind is better given the evidence Amuro has, and may be the one he is pursuing given the picture at the end. (....maybe Amuro wants an apprentice?)

I hope the goal of this post-Bourbon arc is coming up with a strategy to trick Bourbon into buggering off. I would be pretty pleased with that plot development, especially if Ran gets suspicious of Conan as well.
Whatever happens, I think Vermouth is not going to be central to bailing Conan out of harm's way this time. In the past when she has protected Conan, she was either conveniently nearby (busjack) or used a little verbal persuasion (FBI vs BO x2). She is not close right now, and if she tries too hard to dissuade Bourbon, she risks focusing Bourbon's suspicion squarely on why she is pushing him from the course of action he is taking. At best, I think Vermouth might send a message to Conan/run into Conan in a dark alleyway and warn him of Bourbon's intentions.
I think Sera, Akai, and the rest of team Shin-chan are more likely to be the primary helpers. You could also throw Hattori and Kid in there if you wanted everything to be more complicated. If Kid is going to get involved, we will probably see hints of it next case. If Hattori knew that a BO member was hanging around, he would invite himself into the dead center of the problem like what happened with him and Jodie. That and Hattori would probably try to upstart Amuro in a case no matter what out of principle, because Hattori prefers to be more direct than subtle (and Hattori will get annoyed by Kazuha thinking Amuro is good looking).

There are two very immediate problems with Bourbon being suspicious of Conan because they can easily happen very soon: he could hear Shinichi is alive because the Mouris and their friends freely discuss Shinichi, or Amuro decides to stop by Agasa's or Kudo's house to get more info. The Shinichi problem is especially pressing because Sera has poked the issue before, and she may try to do it again. The major third problem, Amuro running into Ai while trying to intercept Conan, say on the way to school, can be alleviated by having Ai walk separately from them and not participate in any Detective Boys activities, like Kid heists. I wouldn't be surprised if Haibara will start doing this on Conan's recommendation anyway to be on the safe side since they know Bourbon has been hanging around.

I wonder where Vermouth is living, and if we have seen that building before in the manga.

[darkshadow]

I was looking through both the spoiler and non-spoiler threads and not one single person made a deduction for the murder case. I guess it's understandable since plot is much more interesting than the murder mystery at this point in the series.

But I like the whole idea of Amuro investigating Conan and possibly finding out his and Haibara's secret. I can't wait for future developments!

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I was looking through both the spoiler and non-spoiler threads and not one single person made a deduction for the murder case. I guess it's understandable since plot is much more interesting than the murder mystery at this point in the series.

Someone did the solution at DCW, so I didn't bother with my usual round this time. Be sure to check both forums if you are looking for case solutions. 

[Akonyl]

conan should've just shot amuro in the eye when he put his face right up to his watch. Take that, BO scum! :V

anyway, this was a pretty weird case to me. Usually, the murderer might use what they have available to kill someone, but in the end they're just trying to kill someone. But this time, it almost seemed like she was going out of her way to make the murder tricks all ice-based, which I guess maybe makes sense since the guy died in the snow, but it still seems a bit overkill.

As for the victim's death, is it really that easy to get completely trapped in in 2 meters of freshly fallen snow? Thoughts from cold climate forumers?

I'm not quite in an environment where 2 meter levels of snow from natural causes are a thing, but I'd say not really, if you're smart about it. If you just try to trudge through the snow upon landing (as you may if you're in a panic), then yeah, your strength will probably be sapped pretty quickly (even trudging through 20 inches any amount of distance can be pretty tiring) and you'll succumb to the cold, but if the snow is freshly fallen and only around a foot above your head, you can easily compress the snow around you to make a small clearing around you. While it won't amount to much immediately, it solves the main issue of losing body heat via snow contact, and as long as you're wearing winter clothes (as it looks like he is in the picture), you should hopefully be able to hold out for long enough to slowly make your way back to the house (since in this case it's just a fall from a balcony). If you're not wearing winter clothes, then it depends on how long it takes them to get to you, I guess

if you're in the middle of nowhere though and you siddenly find yourself stuck in 2 meters of snow all around you though, then yeah you're probably out of luck unless people are looking for you.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

As for the victim's death, is it really that easy to get completely trapped in in 2 meters of freshly fallen snow? Thoughts from cold climate forumers?

but if the snow is freshly fallen and only around a foot above your head, you can easily compress the snow around you to make a small clearing around you. While it won't amount to much immediately, it solves the main issue of losing body heat via snow contact, and as long as you're wearing winter clothes (as it looks like he is in the picture)

That's what I thought, but I have less experience around multi-meter thick large volumes of snow than I would like. He could have probably "dug up" by compacting the snow around him until he was splayed on top and then "commando crawled" out on the surface to minimize sinkage until he could reach the wall and bang on it. If he jumped in, there should be an entry hole above him, rather than getting buried which is a bigger problem.
Well, I guess if you panic, then you can die in almost any circumstance.

[PT]

What? I sometimes eat ice cream with a fork..but that knife. You can't cut a cake with a knife like that.

Huh? Looks like a regular butter knife to me. For example.

What kind of cake are you eating that you can't cut it with that kind of knife?

[Misztina]

While Amuro seems to suspect Conan is the one making sleeping Kogoro, I also wonder if he thinks that Conan is being used by someone: someone has given Conan gadgets, is telling Conan what to do, and is making deductions through Conan/Kogoro. The only reason I suggest this option as a possible alternative to Conan being the sole person behind Sleeping Kogoro is that Amuro may still be looking for a way to insert Akai into the situation. Even though, I think the deduction that Conan is the mastermind is better given the evidence Amuro has, and may be the one he is pursuing given the picture at the end. (....maybe Amuro wants an apprentice?)

It would be a slightly more logical conclusion that Conan is used by someone (from Amuro's perspective), since in the train case and on the train Amuro saw a suspicious, adult character and he may think of Conan as a link between Mouri and the secret "mastermind".

[El Huesudo II]

While Amuro seems to suspect Conan is the one making sleeping Kogoro, I also wonder if he thinks that Conan is being used by someone: someone has given Conan gadgets, is telling Conan what to do, and is making deductions through Conan/Kogoro. The only reason I suggest this option as a possible alternative to Conan being the sole person behind Sleeping Kogoro is that Amuro may still be looking for a way to insert Akai into the situation. Even though, I think the deduction that Conan is the mastermind is better given the evidence Amuro has, and may be the one he is pursuing given the picture at the end. (....maybe Amuro wants an apprentice?)

Oh god, the thought of Amuro wanting to scout Conan for the BO is simply... hilarious to me.

As for Amuro suspecting Conan... You're right. The evidence seems to point to Conan, but even if Amuro considers him a very talented kid, I doubt he'd think he's behind the whole show. He has shown interest in Prof. Agasa before, so maybe that's the next step he'll take.

Whatever happens, I think Vermouth is not going to be central to bailing Conan out of harm's way this time. In the past when she has protected Conan, she was either conveniently nearby (busjack) or used a little verbal persuasion (FBI vs BO x2). She is not close right now, and if she tries too hard to dissuade Bourbon, she risks focusing Bourbon's suspicion squarely on why she is pushing him from the course of action he is taking. At best, I think Vermouth might send a message to Conan/run into Conan in a dark alleyway and warn him of Bourbon's intentions.

I don't think Vermouth has much to work with here. She only helped Bourbon because of Sherry's involvement, and now that Sherry is "dead", she has no reason to work with Bourbon anymore.

Her phone call at the end of this chapter, IMO; is as much as she's gonna be able to do. She can't keep telling Bourbon to "cut it out" with the Mouris, because Bourbon isn't stupid - he'll notice Vermouth is interested in the Mouris for some reason (if he doesn't suspect it already...!).

And, well, she can't just show up at the places Conan frequently visits and tell him "hey kid, pack up your stuff and run the hell away because Bourbon is investigating you", I mean, she's not only super-famous, Conan doesn't trust her at all. And, well, she'd risk blowing her cover.

Nope, nothing she can do. Unless she gets creative with disguises again? I dunno.

I think Sera, Akai, and the rest of team Shin-chan are more likely to be the primary helpers. You could also throw Hattori and Kid in there if you wanted everything to be more complicated. If Kid is going to get involved, we will probably see hints of it next case. If Hattori knew that a BO member was hanging around, he would invite himself into the dead center of the problem like what happened with him and Jodie. That and Hattori would probably try to upstart Amuro in a case no matter what out of principle, because Hattori prefers to be more direct than subtle (and Hattori will get annoyed by Kazuha thinking Amuro is good looking).

Hattori... I dunno.

Hell, I'm responsible for a topic where I say "let's not mix Hattori into the Bourbon thing at all, please". He'll say Kudo, Amuro will go "wait, who's Kudo?", he'll get suspicious, he'll look into it, he'll most likely dismiss the idea of Conan being Shinichi because it's too hyping ridiculous, but he'll most likely have a look at Shinichi's house. You know, the one Akai is living in.

And all hell can break loose from there.

There are two very immediate problems with Bourbon being suspicious of Conan because they can easily happen very soon: he could hear Shinichi is alive because the Mouris and their friends freely discuss Shinichi, or Amuro decides to stop by Agasa's or Kudo's house to get more info. The Shinichi problem is especially pressing because Sera has poked the issue before, and she may try to do it again. The major third problem, Amuro running into Ai while trying to intercept Conan, say on the way to school, can be alleviated by having Ai walk separately from them and not participate in any Detective Boys activities, like Kid heists. I wouldn't be surprised if Haibara will start doing this on Conan's recommendation anyway to be on the safe side since they know Bourbon has been hanging around.

Conan should just tell Sera the truth already, and then convince her and the rest of his acquaintances to keep a lid on anything related to "Shinichi", and if whoever asks, he's dead. Reason: "Dangerous case just got even more dangerous. Can't spare any details, just trust me on this one". I mean, yeah, people would get curious, but at least it's one layer of protection for his cover.

[sstimson]

I will be doing a full rebuttal in the other thread. But for now this:

Spoiler:

From Here

Don’t place dry ice directly onto counters or tables because it could damage them. Place a towel underneath it before putting it on any surface susceptible to damage.

No mention of the damage that dry ice would have done to the floor. That would have shown the body was moved.

From Here

TRANSPORTING BY AUTO OR VAN
Plan to pick up the Dry Ice as close to the time it is needed as possible. If possible pack insulating items such as sleeping bags around the ice chest. This will stretch the time that the Dry Ice lasts. If it is transported inside a car or van (not in the trunk) for more than 10 minutes make sure there is fresh air. After 15 minutes with Dry Ice only in its paper bag in the passenger seat next to me, I started to breathe faster and faster as though I were running a race. I couldn't figure out why I was so out of breath until I saw the car air system was set in the re-circulated position, not fresh outside air.

As Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air it sinks. The room was air tight but for under the door.

Also this. From here

VENTILATION
Normal air is 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen and only 0.035% Carbon Dioxide. If the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air rises above 0.5%, carbon dioxide can become dangerous. Smaller concentrations can cause quicker breathing, but is otherwise not harmful. If Dry Ice has been in a closed auto, van, room, or walk in for more than 10 minutes, open doors and allow adequate ventilation before entering. Leave area containing Dry Ice if you start to pant and breath quickly or your fingernails or lips start to turn blue. This is the sign that you have breathed in too much CO2 and not enough oxygen. Dry Ice CO2 is heavier than air and will accumulate in low spaces.

Note the word room. Conan was likely in that room for over two hours.
And Also this. From here

   1kg of dry ice will produce 0.45 m3 of gas (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd.).

   Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 1% of total mass per hour in an insulated container (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: Federal Aviation Administration in USA).

   Dry ice to CO2 sublimation rate = approx. 14% of total mass per hour at room temperature in the open (figure supplied by Gas Safety UK Ltd. - source: a study published in Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine 1977).

Note that 0.45 m3  is equal to 15.8916 cubic feet. Please explain why Conan is still Alive.

In summary 1) It sublimate fast meaning a simple ice cube size would be gone before they got out of the room.
                  2) The amount of gas released should have killed Conan.
                  3) If the gas is not kept in a certain type of container, it will sublimate and the vapor pressure will cause a small explosion. This would have been heard the night before.

[Kor]

Hattori... I dunno.

Hell, I'm responsible for a topic where I say "let's not mix Hattori into the Bourbon thing at all, please". He'll say Kudo, Amuro will go "wait, who's Kudo?", he'll get suspicious, he'll look into it, he'll most likely dismiss the idea of Conan being Shinichi because it's too hyping ridiculous, but he'll most likely have a look at Shinichi's house. You know, the one Akai is living in.

And all hell can break loose from there.

But this is just an assumption and relies on the words "what would happen if...". We can't know for sure Hattori will in fact say Kudo next to Amuro. Could it happen? Yes. But that alone doesn't mean it will happen.
At this point, though, I highly doubt Hattori would be the one to make Amuro realize something about Conan, since Amuro is already on the track in that aspect.