Is Gosho losing his touch?

[KainTheVampire]

I'm pretty sure Bourbon said he was Scar-Akai and let Vermouth take the part at that time only

[secretbeauty101]

For some reasons Bourbon wanted Sherry alive, that's why he didn't shoot her. And I don't think Gosho doesn't want to let Bourbon shine. It's just not the time yet. Remember that he wants to start investigating Akai's death again. There might soon be a confrontation between him and Akai, which could be his chance to truly shine.

+10

I'm a bit confused, scretybeauty101

In your first post, you said this:

...my point is that everything since the start of Bourbon Arc has been so unbelievably predictable and anti-climatic that even though I don't want it to end I can't wait for the Boss to be revealed because that will probably be the least predictable element in the story especially since Chek hasn't managed to figure out who the boss is yet and neither have we.   

And yet just now you said:

...but that is not what I'm complaining about. I'm saying this because although this was clearly the Bourbon arc what part of it was really Bourbon? Most of it was really Vermouth adding a few touches here and there. Unlike Gin who runs on his own orders (and anokata) Bourbon did not. For example, we even see in some cases where Vodka, Tequila and Pisco worked alone but not Bourbon. If Bourbon is such an important character in the BO then why didn't Gosho let him shine like he did with Vermouth, Gin, Chianti, Kir, Korn. If he is really supposed to be that great then how comes we hardly saw any action from HIM?

My reply strictly dealt with your first post - the unpredictability issue - but now you just said that what was in your first post is "not what you were complaining about". I can't exactly reply to a complaint that wasn't touched upon. As much as I'm clairvoyant with my comics and such, I'm not a mindreader. If the posts on here don't represent what you're thinking, then I can't understand.

Anyway, I guess I'll move on to what the point apparently actually was.

Some pretty recent spoilers below, for anyone not completely caught up on the manga (though I'm not sure why you'd be reading this far if you were avoiding spoilers )

I'm saying this because although this was clearly the Bourbon arc what part of it was really Bourbon?

Walking around as Scar!Akai, doing research on Akai's death, saving Conan as Scar!Akai, luring out Sera, seeing who knew that Akai was alive (watching reactions of people that knew Akai), becoming Kogoro's apprentice, etc.

He actually did quite a lot.

Most of it was really Vermouth adding a few touches here and there.

I would personally say it'd be more farfetched if Bourbon was yet another master of disguise. Having Vermouth help out only made sense. He never spoke as Scar!Akai, and his plan involved walking around as Akai to gauge people's reactions. I would say calling only one aspect "most of it" would be a little out there. He went to Vermouth because he knew that she was capable of disguise and getting the files that he wanted to see.

Unlike Gin who runs on his own orders (and anokata) Bourbon did not. For example, we even see in some cases where Vodka, Tequila and Pisco worked alone but not Bourbon.

Having the BO be shown to only be people who "play by their own rules" would be boring. There's no order that way in the organization and from a story standpoint...it's just the same thing, over and over again. As for the "Bourbon doesn't work alone" thing, we've only technically seen him on one mission. Vermouth did the make-up, yes, but other than that, Bourbon mostly ran around on his own. It wasn't until the train case that they were truly working together.

If Bourbon is such an important character in the BO then why didn't Gosho let him shine like he did with Vermouth, Gin, Chianti, Kir, Korn.

He's only important because of the focus. Otherwise, he's probably a bit of a lower ranking member. And...hold up here, Chianti and Korn? I'm...confused again, how exactly did those two "shine"? All we know about them is they like to snipe things. ...End of story. :V

If he is really supposed to be that great then how comes we hardly saw any action from HIM?

As Gin said, Bourbon's a detective. His game field is that of thought, not violence or big action scenes. Not to mention, we haven't actually gotten to the climax yet. We can't expect the same thing from every BO character. Gin doesn't get along with him, and now I can see why: Bourbon is more like a fox. He's sly and uses tricks to get to what he wants, rather than bursting forward with a gun like Gin would. We also haven't been given Bourbon's true face and/or thoughts until now. For the Vermouth arc and the Kir arc, we knew what they looked like and what they were thinking. That's why we knew more about them and likely why there was more blow up action: there wasn't much intrigue in who they were or what they looked like. With Bourbon, he didn't technically say anything for 5 years. How are we supposed to get action from a person we don't know and who's not on the camera that much? For all we know, he crashed a plane and blew up a bridge on the side.

What I'm saying is: Bourbon is different. He's not supposed to be another cookie-cutter BO character. ...and I like that. 

Chianti and Korn did shine, from the moment they entered the story Gosho showed how important they were to Gin which meant they were important to the story, they're involved in assassination plots telling us that out of all the snipers in the BO they're the main ones meaning the most important ones considering Gosho is not going to introduce each and every sniper in the BO but he did with them which does make them important and since they became involved in the story we begin to see more of them in other cases as well. I understand that Bourbon is different from the other BO's, he is a sly fox and when it comes to dealing with things he prefers to stay cautious and acts swiftly unlike Gin. Considering the events in the recent files I assume Conan already knows who Bourbon is and I doubt he needed Amuro to admit to it. Its not just the fact that it was easy to predict it was just how anti-climatic it was. Everything about it to me lost that moment when we find out who the BO character is. I guess I just can't put it into words. But what I just want to say is that it was so anti-climatic that it was such a disappointment for me. I'm not trying to go into it too much, I was just expressing my thoughts and that's how I viewed it.

[ShinRan4ver]

Chianti and Korn did shine, from the moment they entered the story Gosho showed how important they were to Gin which meant they were important to the story, they're involved in assassination plots telling us that out of all the snipers in the BO they're the main ones meaning the most important ones considering Gosho is not going to introduce each and every sniper in the BO but he did with them which does make them important and since they became involved in the story we begin to see more of them in other cases as well. I understand that Bourbon is different from the other BO's, he is a sly fox and when it comes to dealing with things he prefers to stay cautious and acts swiftly unlike Gin. Considering the events in the recent files I assume Conan already knows who Bourbon is and I doubt he needed Amuro to admit to it. Its not just the fact that it was easy to predict it was just how anti-climatic it was. Everything about it to me lost that moment when we find out who the BO character is. I guess I just can't put it into words. But what I just want to say is that it was so anti-climatic that it was such a disappointment for me. I'm not trying to go into it too much, I was just expressing my thoughts and that's how I viewed it.

Gin don't really trust them under pressure-> Episode 425, when under fire from Akai Gin took the rifle from Korn to find the shooter instead of trusting him to take the shot. They are just there to do the sniping because Gin/Vermouth don't want to do it. they are treated very badly and not respected at all-> how Vermouth treated Calvados in ep 345, how Gin told Chanti to shut-up in ep425 etc. I wouldn't call that "letting them shine".

[secretbeauty101]

I still think they're quite important to the story and to the BO. Let's not forget that anyone whether they've been serving in the Org for long or not is very easily dispensable to the Organisation like how Gin wants to off Vermouth the moment she slips up or the way he offed pisco without a second thought. Heck even Gin himself may play a big role in the Org and the story but him as well can easily be offed by someone the moment he makes a mistake, considering all the less important BO characters like Calvados, Pisco and Tequila who were offed the moment they entered the story, Chianti and Korn are still around not to mention we started to see more of them in other cases as well not just one so shouldn't that count as an importance in itself?

[Stopwatch]

I still think they're quite important to the story and to the BO. Let's not forget that anyone whether they've been serving in the Org for long or not is very easily dispensable to the Organisation like how Gin wants to off Vermouth the moment she slips up or the way he offed pisco without a second thought. Heck even Gin himself may play a big role in the Org and the story but him as well can easily be offed by someone the moment he makes a mistake, considering all the less important BO characters like Calvados, Pisco and Tequila who were offed the moment they entered the story, Chianti and Korn are still around not to mention we started to see more of them in other cases as well not just one so shouldn't that count as an importance in itself?

Pisco was offed because he'd messed up and could no longer serve his purpose for the organisation. He'd've gone to prison if he'd've survived and possibly leaked info about the BO. So, he was offed, it wasn't because he was dispensable to start off with, but because he was a security leak and no longer useful.
Gin wanting to kill Vermouth is his own personal grudge against her, although I don't think he really disliked her before the Vermouth arc. Even when Vermouth was disguised as the waiter he wouldn't have killed her because he knew and expected her to escape. At that point, I guess you could say his relationship with Vermouth was like KID's and Conan's, they throw whatever they can at the other because they know they can handle it without being seriously hurt/dying. After ep 345 however, he seems to get susp of Vermouth and no longer trusts her which is the point where he decides he wants an excuse to kill her. Gin is loyal, maybe too loyal at times, but he also does a lot of things on his own (switching the target to Kogorou after finding the bug, though he did need the boss's permission for that) or for personal reasons (Sherry).
So, really, what you are talking about is two isolated incidents which have much different reasons behind them than what you say, at least imo.

[HADAA]

but [Gin] also does a lot of things on his own

Including going to an amusement park, having his partner send a child flying with an ass-kick, and riding on a roller coaster like a baws.

[Yurikochan]

I'm still praying for a twist since it wasn't technically revealed and there have been a few unexplained things that happened with Amuro/Okiya to make the theory not be true as the ending results.

If Okiya really is Akai, he ruined Akai for me. And that's just from one of the things I spoke about before.

So yeah I agree Gosho is losing his touch, cause he did the absolute obvious ( and in the most ridiculous way ever.)

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap over this, but I'm prepared. Excuse me while I go back to the amazingness of Jeffery Deaver now. ^^

[Feb914]

back in Vermouth arc, he took many people by surprise by lots of red herrings which turns out to be a bluff. Maybe he decided to double-bluff by giving the obvious on this arc, seeing how many speculations that turn out sour, his double bluff worked, until people cry for the obviousness

[Yurikochan]

^ If you could realize the parts I spoke about it makes some sense. Just because an artist draws an eye, on a character who acts totally unlike how he should be...Okiya has been ridiculously stupid and lax for more than one occasion. Knowing several police, government officials with  highest clearance, they wouldn't jokingly put someone in danger, or hurt other people.

Okiya is not Akai and will never be for me unless there is a darn good explanation for the things he has said/done lately. And I will hate the character if it stays that way. Because he made him stupid and ridiculous.

[El Huesudo II]

but [Gin] also does a lot of things on his own

Including going to an amusement park, having his partner send a child flying with an ass-kick, and riding on a roller coaster like a baws.

Don't forget making a chick "betray" her super cool FBI partner RIGHT THEN.

And "mixing a martini" with Vermouth once in a while. (Well, he doesn't do that literally on his own, but you get my drift. I would guess he wouldn't make his partner join on the fun... OR WOULD HE?)

Yeah, he does a lot on his owm.

[secretbeauty101]

I'm still praying for a twist since it wasn't technically revealed and there have been a few unexplained things that happened with Amuro/Okiya to make the theory not be true as the ending results.

If Okiya really is Akai, he ruined Akai for me. And that's just from one of the things I spoke about before.

So yeah I agree Gosho is losing his touch, cause he did the absolute obvious ( and in the most ridiculous way ever.)

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap over this, but I'm prepared. Excuse me while I go back to the amazingness of Jeffery Deaver now. ^^

I totally agree, I'm not complaining about how easy it started to get for me to figure out the cases but even the BO are becoming more predictable now. I got used to the BO acting so impulsively that even if Conan managed to deduce their plans before they actually happen there would still be an element of surprise that would blow us all away and this time it didn't happen. I love Gosho's style of writing I think its unique and creative however childish the plot really is but whatever happened to that 'SHOCK FACTOR' Doesn't mean I'm ever going to stop reading DC though, I am way in too deep lol :p

[El Huesudo II]

IMO, this arc had as much shock factor as any other. Just because Chek here is a master plotline detective doesn't mean the validity of the twist is any lesser.

This is a mystery series, not an action thriller. The clues are laid out before us, and some people get the meaning of them. That's kind of what's supposed to happen. Though sure enough, to any bystanders, this could seem like the series is getting predictable - but it always has been, and it's supposed to be. In a mystery work, we're the detectives.

As for the shock factor of the lesser cases, well, we've gotten used to the procedure. In other mystery/police series, this point is where the writers focus more on drama (like on Castle or House MD), or add different kinds of shock factor (like Law and Order: SVU and Criminal Minds), or resort to stupid stuff in order to raise the episode count (I'm looking at you, Bones; you too, The X-Files).

However, there are some series where the writers instead place the very structure of the show in the background and focus more on the plot (like what happened in the 3rd season of The Mentalist). That's what's happening right now in Conan: the plot has priority. If you notice closely, the main focus of the Bourbon arc is actually Bourbon, from the beginning and the whole "who could it be" thing (Chek you're the best), to the "okay we now know who he is, now what is he gonna do" that we're experiencing right now.

Judging by the tension level of the show after the Mystery Train arc, this case could have been a Detective Boys case one, to reduce the tension and focus on comedy again for a while. But it's not. Then, judging by the time of the year and the series's publication rhythm, this could have been a Hattori Heiji case. But, again, it's not. We have a case that puts the reader back into the tension zone: it's Bourbon. He's back, he's on the spotlight, and we don't know his intentions. This is why I say the focus right now is on the plot rather than in the cases.

If Aoyama-sensei decides to keep going this way, by the finale we won't even need to have a murder case anymore and the show will play out like Alias or 24.

[Wakarimashita]

If Aoyama-sensei decides to keep going this way, by the finale we won't even need to have a murder case anymore and the show will play out like Alias or 24.

I really really don't see that happening. Sometimes we have one or two chapters without a case of any kind but it never lasts.

[Feb914]

IMO, this arc had as much shock factor as any other. Just because Chek here is a master plotline detective doesn't mean the validity of the twist is any lesser.

This is a mystery series, not an action thriller. The clues are laid out before us, and some people get the meaning of them. That's kind of what's supposed to happen. Though sure enough, to any bystanders, this could seem like the series is getting predictable - but it always has been, and it's supposed to be. In a mystery work, we're the detectives.

As for the shock factor of the lesser cases, well, we've gotten used to the procedure. In other mystery/police series, this point is where the writers focus more on drama (like on Castle or House MD), or add different kinds of shock factor (like Law and Order: SVU and Criminal Minds), or resort to stupid stuff in order to raise the episode count (I'm looking at you, Bones; you too, The X-Files).

However, there are some series where the writers instead place the very structure of the show in the background and focus more on the plot (like what happened in the 3rd season of The Mentalist). That's what's happening right now in Conan: the plot has priority. If you notice closely, the main focus of the Bourbon arc is actually Bourbon, from the beginning and the whole "who could it be" thing (Chek you're the best), to the "okay we now know who he is, now what is he gonna do" that we're experiencing right now.

Judging by the tension level of the show after the Mystery Train arc, this case could have been a Detective Boys case one, to reduce the tension and focus on comedy again for a while. But it's not. Then, judging by the time of the year and the series's publication rhythm, this could have been a Hattori Heiji case. But, again, it's not. We have a case that puts the reader back into the tension zone: it's Bourbon. He's back, he's on the spotlight, and we don't know his intentions. This is why I say the focus right now is on the plot rather than in the cases.

If Aoyama-sensei decides to keep going this way, by the finale we won't even need to have a murder case anymore and the show will play out like Alias or 24.

after a very slow progression, GA is on the move. I hope that DB will finish quite soon, with an epic (non-rushed) final arc.. I'm just too afraid that 4chan or other entities ban publication of translated manga online and DC's finale can't be accessed to those not in Japan.

[Kor]

IMO, this arc had as much shock factor as any other. Just because Chek here is a master plotline detective doesn't mean the validity of the twist is any lesser.

This is a mystery series, not an action thriller. The clues are laid out before us, and some people get the meaning of them. That's kind of what's supposed to happen. Though sure enough, to any bystanders, this could seem like the series is getting predictable - but it always has been, and it's supposed to be. In a mystery work, we're the detectives.

As for the shock factor of the lesser cases, well, we've gotten used to the procedure. In other mystery/police series, this point is where the writers focus more on drama (like on Castle or House MD), or add different kinds of shock factor (like Law and Order: SVU and Criminal Minds), or resort to stupid stuff in order to raise the episode count (I'm looking at you, Bones; you too, The X-Files).

However, there are some series where the writers instead place the very structure of the show in the background and focus more on the plot (like what happened in the 3rd season of The Mentalist). That's what's happening right now in Conan: the plot has priority. If you notice closely, the main focus of the Bourbon arc is actually Bourbon, from the beginning and the whole "who could it be" thing (Chek you're the best), to the "okay we now know who he is, now what is he gonna do" that we're experiencing right now.

Judging by the tension level of the show after the Mystery Train arc, this case could have been a Detective Boys case one, to reduce the tension and focus on comedy again for a while. But it's not. Then, judging by the time of the year and the series's publication rhythm, this could have been a Hattori Heiji case. But, again, it's not. We have a case that puts the reader back into the tension zone: it's Bourbon. He's back, he's on the spotlight, and we don't know his intentions. This is why I say the focus right now is on the plot rather than in the cases.

If Aoyama-sensei decides to keep going this way, by the finale we won't even need to have a murder case anymore and the show will play out like Alias or 24.

after a very slow progression, GA is on the move. I hope that DB will finish quite soon, with an epic (non-rushed) final arc.. I'm just too afraid that 4chan or other entities ban publication of translated manga online and DC's finale can't be accessed to those not in Japan.

I believe you have the wrong idea of what 4chan is