Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 825-827 "Tennis Mee

[jalex26]

The BO is not as careful as you'd think. Hell, they tried to blow up AN ENTIRE HOSPITAL FILLED WITH PEOPLE for crying out loud. And that's not the first time they go to extremes.

If I remember correctly they didn't really plan to blow up the entire hospital. Their plan was to make the FBI suspect that that was the case so they could locate Kir using the tracking device inside the bombs. They even made the bombs so obvious. If you're talking about the Rikumichi guy, the bomb was fake.

[s.pel]

The BO is not as careful as you'd think. Hell, they tried to blow up AN ENTIRE HOSPITAL FILLED WITH PEOPLE for crying out loud. And that's not the first time they go to extremes.

If I remember correctly they didn't really plan to blow up the entire hospital. Their plan was to make the FBI suspect that that was the case so they could locate Kir using the tracking device inside the bombs. They even made the bombs so obvious. If you're talking about the Rikumichi guy, the bomb was fake.

I remember that then, when Gin was talking with Kir in the car, it was her who stopped the BO from blowing up the entire hospital, saying that she cared for the people who took care of her, but Gin actually was thinking of blowing up the building.

[jalex26]

The BO is not as careful as you'd think. Hell, they tried to blow up AN ENTIRE HOSPITAL FILLED WITH PEOPLE for crying out loud. And that's not the first time they go to extremes.

If I remember correctly they didn't really plan to blow up the entire hospital. Their plan was to make the FBI suspect that that was the case so they could locate Kir using the tracking device inside the bombs. They even made the bombs so obvious. If you're talking about the Rikumichi guy, the bomb was fake.

I remember that then, when Gin was talking with Kir in the car, it was her who stopped the BO from blowing up the entire hospital, saying that she cared for the people who took care of her, but Gin actually was thinking of blowing up the building.

You're right. I totally forgot about that. Haha. It's possible that Gin was only testing Kir, though.

[El Huesudo II]

Gin is kind of a loose cannon. He and his snipers couldn't care less about the mess they make unless that man tells them to can it. He actually likes the hunt and cares not about the lives he's ending; not to mention that he doesn't really care about secrecy when it comes to killing people unless the cops are around. (You know, the ones who actually CAN make arrests. Not stupid FBI black ops team who can't lift a finger.)

[ShinRan4ver]

Gin is kind of a loose cannon. He and his snipers couldn't care less about the mess they make unless that man tells them to can it. He actually likes the hunt and cares not about the lives he's ending; not to mention that he doesn't really care about secrecy when it comes to killing people unless the cops are around. (You know, the ones who actually CAN make arrests. Not stupid FBI black ops team who can't lift a finger.)

I think he don't really care if the Cops are around either if he can get rid of them, don't forget this time he planted enough C4 at the station to wipe out a whole brigade of cops & Suzuki Jirokichi just make sure Sherry is dead.

[Midi]

Conan will most likely tell the FBI about Bourbon's identity - hell, he might have already done so. However, the FBI cell pursuing the BO has no jurisdiction in Japan and is unable to make a legal arrest. This is the part that you apparently can't understand yet: What the FBI and Conan are doing is called a BLACK OPERATION. It's not legal. It's clandestine. It's secret. They can't get help from the authorities. AT ALL.

sstimson, is it that you really, really, REEEEEALLY want the action to move that fast? With the current state of events in the series, it simply can't. Be patient.

This. in fact, a breach of protocol and national security on this scale could even cause an international incident. Wars, cold wars and embargoes have been known to start for a lot less, and this is an entire clandestine cell of top FBI agents operating in a country without permission or jurisdiction. Not only is it completely illegal, but its a gold-mine for anyone wanting to create political strife. Threading carefully is really the first thing on these agents' minds, as they are in enemy territory on all sides (Which makes me think: what on earth were they thinking, sending someone as green as Camel to this operation?).

Again you are wrong here. There are events where the FBI or CIA no longer needs the Host country permission to act. The Bo and their agents are without question Terrorist. Guess what because of this fact, they can pursue them. It not a secret. The Bo suspects comitted terrorist acts and there are laws that allow them to act. It is called extraterritorial jurisdiction. Google it and read about it. An example using the british government Extra Territorial Jurisdiction (ETJ) for Terrorist Offences - Part 2 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003

Interpellating this is also tricky business. Despite the upgrades to cellphones and other clues that seem to update Conan to our times, no one can be sure which year Detective Conan is happening in at this point. Apart from the fact that, if the FBI is going this covert, they suspect higher ups in the government may get wind of them if they apply through legal terms, one is forced to wonder if '2003' has happened yet in Conan-calendar.

As for the BO being subtle.... no, they aren't, but they always calculate their risks very precisely. They planned to snipe a rising politician in front of a ralley of witnesses, blow up a hospital, had Kir murder Akai on a bridge with law and order witnesses not ten minutes away (note that she drives past them when they arrive on scene), and as kindly pointed out by ShinRan4ver, planned on sending an entire train station and all people in it sky high. However, for each of these actions that would instigate massive media attention, political pressure and a LARGE scale investigation, they had their derriers covered. It seems vague - random terrorist shoots politician, gas malfunctioning can be blamed for the hospital, carefully calculated execution time for Akai's car burning, and a placement of bombs in a way suggesting the assassination of Jirokichi was the bomber's intentions - but still doable for an organisation that seems to have no lack of resource. In each instant, a number of BO operatives were placed on scene, to act, possibly, as false testimonies and mislead investigations. As for operatives who are caught, one can safely infer that they get instructions much like the members of the original TV series 'Mission Impossible' team; if you're caught, not only are you on your own, but we'll be coming to terminate you as fast as possible.

That said, there are probably going to be a number of new cleaners at the station after this, all recently employed, or covering someone's shift, who will 'clean up' all the C4 planted on the sly. It's always interesting to imagine the solutions to Gosho's tiny plot holes. As Vodka said that Vermouth only took 'some' of the C4 - and revisiting the panel where KID exposes the stuff teaches us all that the term 'some' is relative - then there is a lot more of that stuff ready to be 'cleaned', and it doesn't exactly come a-dime-a-dozen either.

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

Oh and OT, but ... El Huesudo II ... I am staring at your new picture avatar with a mixture of amusement and horror, as I can't quite decide whether Lego-Conan looks cute as a button, or whether he's pointing his finger at me saying 'Next, I shall come for you, and turn you also into a tetris monster!'

[s.pel]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

[ShinRan4ver]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

The interesting thing is Okiya Subaru, Sera Masumi & Amuro Tooru are all Gundam themed names, Okiya Subaru is most likely an Alias since Okiya is most likely Akai, since Sera responded to Vermouth calling her Masumi so that's likely her real given name(Sera could still be an alias), and we have no definitive info on whether Amuro Tooru is a alias or not.

[jalex26]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

I think it is his real appearance or at least his real skin color, because in the latest manga we saw him playing tennis. If he was in disguise, the sweat would probably ruin it. I'm also wondering why Akai didn't tell Conan about Amuro. I don't see any reason for him to hide it to Conan.

[s.pel]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

I think it is his real appearance or at least his real skin color, because in the latest manga we saw him playing tennis. If he was in disguise, the sweat would probably ruin it. I'm also wondering why Akai didn't tell Conan about Amuro. I don't see any reason for him to hide it to Conan.

That's why I think that that isn't his real appearence :-/ Akai didn't recognize him, they were sure he was Bourbon only after he revealed himself on the train. If that is his real appearence, then
1. Akai never met him in person while he was in the Organization (which is unlikely, but still..)
2. or Akai had never seen him after he (Akai) changed his identity...so he didn't see him in file 800? it is possible, it was dark after all...but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?  ???

[s.pel]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

The interesting thing is Okiya Subaru, Sera Masumi & Amuro Tooru are all Gundam themed names, Okiya Subaru is most likely an Alias since Okiya is most likely Akai, since Sera responded to Vermouth calling her Masumi so that's likely her real given name(Sera could still be an alias), and we have no definitive info on whether Amuro Tooru is a alias or not.

Well, we are sure that Okiya Subaru is an alias. Concerning Sera, we can say that, being she Akai's sister, "Masumi Sera" can't be her real name. Now, since Vermouth called her "Masumi", is it possible that her real name is Masumi Akai? And if that's so, why would she be using a fake surname but a real  first name? Maybe things went like this: Akai's family lived in Japan, but when he started infiltrating the BO, the FBI suggested to move his family to the US in order to protect them. Then, Akai's cover is blown and the FBI put his sister (and the rest of the family) under the Witness Protection Program, changing her name. This makes sense because the FBI knows that the BO would try to kill not only Akai, but everyone related to him. We know that Vermouth called her "Masumi", but what I think it's strange is that...how could they know that she was Akai's sister? Did Akai himself tell them when he was in the Organization, putting her in danger? I don't think so... So perhaps, Vermouth (with the help of Bourbon's amazing detective skills) found out that she's Shuichi Akai's sister AFTER Akai left the BO (most likely after he was "killed"). Thus, if the FBI changed both her first name and surname, the only way Vermouth could call her back then in the train was "Masumi", because she actually doesn't know her real name. Or, Masumi is indeed her real name (the kanji for Masumi means "true") and she (or the FBI) changed only her surname in order not to be linked to Shuichi Akai.

[sstimson]

I was going to drop this but changed my mind.

Sera Should be a BO death list person. Vermouth clearly not only knew her, but also her relationship. There is no reason to think the BO does not know as well. There is no way for the BO to know what she was told to her by her brother. Yet she is still walking around. This is one example of where they did not do their job. They are leaving a potential witness to BO activities alive.

Yukiko and likely Vermouth have US green cards if not citizenship. That would bring in ETJ in to play ( An attack on US outside of the US ) a bombing being a terrorist act and one of the reason to bring ETJ in to play. As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

As for Sherry mask showing up, it almost a certainty. Call it a Chekhov Gun if you wish. Real life things like parachutes showing up in millions of square miles. This is even more likely if the mask landed any where near the place the video was taken. It would make a clear sign that the BO got lead into a trap. Things like that do show up and they cause all kinds of problems when they do.

Bourbon was the last one in the car before the explosion. I do believe they check the cargo before leaving. Those explosives had to be planted while the train was in motion. As it is very unlikely for an outsider to be able to plant them, that means it had to be done by a train passenger. And there is a list of them. Add the conductors who are in each car and watching that car and it gets narrowed down to either passengers in car 7 or car 8. Bourbon at best might claim he noticed the explosives and used some to prevent the train from being derailed. That still will leave the question of what was he doing there and why did he not tell a conductor as soon as possible.

Back to ETJ, there are treaties between countries about exactly that. The Japanese Government can not disagree that there was attack on a US resident and so they would allow a US investigation into the train bombing. The BO by their actions might allow the FBI to now legally operate in Japan. As for knowing about the BO. They do know as Conan and Jodie told them about them and Akai was sent undercover into them. They know the BO does like to use Terrorist methods to commit crimes. If Akai is alive and that possibility is still not a certainty, then he can tell the FBI more.

[jalex26]

Either way, this new file is very promising and there is a lot going on in it - both as regards to the interesting locked room murder itself, and the situation with 'Amuro' (for I highly doubt that is his real name).

speaking of this, do you think that is his real appearence? I mean, Akai/Okiya had seen him before the Mystery Train episode, right? if it's true that they're enemies, Akai should have known how he looks like (or maybe it's here that I'm wrong..) ...then why didn't he tell conan that amuro is a BO member AND Bourbon?

I think it is his real appearance or at least his real skin color, because in the latest manga we saw him playing tennis. If he was in disguise, the sweat would probably ruin it. I'm also wondering why Akai didn't tell Conan about Amuro. I don't see any reason for him to hide it to Conan.

That's why I think that that isn't his real appearence :-/ Akai didn't recognize him, they were sure he was Bourbon only after he revealed himself on the train. If that is his real appearence, then
1. Akai never met him in person while he was in the Organization (which is unlikely, but still..)
2. or Akai had never seen him after he (Akai) changed his identity...so he didn't see him in file 800? it is possible, it was dark after all...but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?  ???

It depends on what he meant by "it looks like God is helping us". Did he recognized him as a B.O. member or not? If he did then maybe he said that because he expects him to be there and is part of the plan, or if not then maybe he thinks that he's an ally and would be able to help them against the B.O. (since he saved Conan once)

[ShinRan4ver]

Sera Should be a BO death list person. Vermouth clearly not only knew her, but also her relationship. There is no reason to think the BO does not know as well. There is no way for the BO to know what she was told to her by her brother. Yet she is still walking around. This is one example of where they did not do their job. They are leaving a potential witness to BO activities alive.

Vermouth knows about Conan and Ai's true identity, but BO doesn't, this alone obliterate your daydream rampage attempt. In what universe did you pull out this Vermouth know= the whole BO knows BS?? Vermouth is know to keep secrets, Gin had mentioned this at least 4 times but apparently you chose to ignore. http://www.dctp.ws/V78-Reader/V78-7Read/A5.html in the bottom left panel Bourbon mentioned that Vermouth "is the only one who can completely immerse herself into the role of that man", this might be not be just about Vermouth's skill in disguise but also her understanding and knowledge about Akai and his family. The Shiho mask you mentioned can just as easily land in a river and get washed into the ocean and never ever ever get found.

[Midi]

I was going to drop this but changed my mind.

Sera Should be a BO death list person. Vermouth clearly not only knew her, but also her relationship. There is no reason to think the BO does not know as well. There is no way for the BO to know what she was told to her by her brother. Yet she is still walking around. This is one example of where they did not do their job. They are leaving a potential witness to BO activities alive.

Yukiko and likely Vermouth have US green cards if not citizenship. That would bring in ETJ in to play ( An attack on US outside of the US ) a bombing being a terrorist act and one of the reason to bring ETJ in to play. As for the date, it should be around at least 2005 ( YouTube was started that year ) and we have the Sherry video posted.

As for Sherry mask showing up, it almost a certainty. Call it a Chekhov Gun if you wish. Real life things like parachutes showing up in millions of square miles. This is even more likely if the mask landed any where near the place the video was taken. It would make a clear sign that the BO got lead into a trap. Things like that do show up and they cause all kinds of problems when they do.

Bourbon was the last one in the car before the explosion. I do believe they check the cargo before leaving. Those explosives had to be planted while the train was in motion. As it is very unlikely for an outsider to be able to plant them, that means it had to be done by a train passenger. And there is a list of them. Add the conductors who are in each car and watching that car and it gets narrowed down to either passengers in car 7 or car 8. Bourbon at best might claim he noticed the explosives and used some to prevent the train from being derailed. That still will leave the question of what was he doing there and why did he not tell a conductor as soon as possible.

Back to ETJ, there are treaties between countries about exactly that. The Japanese Government can not disagree that there was attack on a US resident and so they would allow a US investigation into the train bombing. The BO by their actions might allow the FBI to now legally operate in Japan. As for knowing about the BO. They do know as Conan and Jodie told them about them and Akai was sent undercover into them. They know the BO does like to use Terrorist methods to commit crimes. If Akai is alive and that possibility is still not a certainty, then he can tell the FBI more.

Hmmm, good point on the 'youtube' video.... but I still think it wouldn't really count? Don't get me wrong, I am not devaluing your reasoning because it makes perfect sense, only it may simply not apply. The thing is this; while Gosho seems to be updating technology as Conan goes along, he is also not updating the year in which it's happening. The children are still in the same class, the teens are still in the same class, and if one pays special attention to the landmark-dates, like Valentine's day or white day, they only happen once (the anime has two valentine's days.... but I'm not counting fillers). This seems to be a parallel universe Tokyo were the duracell bunny got hit by lightning, became Nicola Tesla and invented all the things it took us 15 years to come up with in a single sun-cycle. Things that do not help or advance the plot the way Gosho wants it to get left out; in fact, this act may very well be used if it ever works for Gosho - that would really be fantastic. But ultimately we can never know.

As for Akai... I've been on our Meitantei Chek's bandwagon for years now, and that last sneak-peek of his eyes signed the contract for me. You may still be correct, and we all got hoodwinked, but honestly, what are the chances? We only didn't get a massive reveal because Chek is such a Shinichi and ruined the ending for us (my tongue is firmly in my cheek), and nobody else, or nearly nobody, was expecting that. That little eye-peek was a massive shocker reveal, that if it was a red-herring, will have me rather confused, as it would be a veeeery odd move and narrative device.

In fact I will be rather disappointed if Okiya doesn't show up at all in this chapter. Giving Amuro time to shine is brilliant, but I really do want a resultion to that hint. Gosho's an utter tease though, and I'm thinking Okiya will appear in the last panels, if at all.

Still, you know, you make really valid points for the ETJ, and it makes you wonder if Gosho is going to use any politics at all. He seems to try to keep it kiddy-level, with the BO being vaguely evil, and a threat that is stated but often not really shown - except in the really exciting showdowns. People die, yes, but I've seen some fanfictions handle the repercussions of certain aspects of the narrative more thoroughly than Gosho does, 'Fallout', or 'When Pandora's Box is Opened' being two of them.

but then why did he say "it looks like God is helping us" on the Mystery train after he sees Amuro?

Perhaps he recognised Amuro, and therefore could safely think ahead of his strategies, since they had battled before?