(SPOILERS) Questions left unanswered at the end of the train

[sstimson]

You're diverting your point so I am not going to follow that. What I would like to debate about is "Why do you still think the Akai in Page 9 is not Okiya?" and nothing else. I do not care about whether their plan is to purposely put Haibara on the train to trap the BO or not, (According to Yukiko's original plan, they don't want to trap the BO anyway, they want to fool the BO into thinking Sherry is dead, so she had to be on the train but Yukiko would act as her corpse. But this is irrelevant so I color it white.) And I do not care about how you disagree with their plan. That doesn't change the fact that he is Okiya.

Please answer me: Why do you think Akai in Page 9 is not Okiya? How do you explain Okiya having Akai's eyes in Page 16? If you still think that Akai is "one of Kid's men," I'm saying that's impossible because Kid didn't know what happened at all (Page 14). I will not delve into any other questions other than this.

I thought I answered that. In my thinking two reasons. 1) no good way to change between the two. 2) Okiya job should be keep an eye and protecting Haibara.

KID was briefed a little bit. We Know Conan give him a picture. And Conan being the way he is and knowing KID will have to help himself as all others are tied down could also give him a picture of Akai and say that the bad guys seeing him will create confusion. Kid and his assistant could take it from there.

But also why risk bring him out to help KID of all people? Why remove protection from the BO target to help someone who is a decoy?

[caribou]

I kinda think the idea of someone being in disguise as Akai is just unfeasible just because no one has an Akai disguise. :/ (i.e. mask and wig) We know (or at least, that's what I think we know..) that KID/Yukiko/Vermouth disguises are prepared beforehand - Yukiko had a Sherry disguise because they were prepared to fake a Sherry death from the start (this is my assumption but I think a reasonable one), Vermouth had an Akai disguise but it comes with scars, whereas the Akai we saw had no scars. Therefore, from the view of feasibility, I would think that the only person who can appear as Akai unscarred, is Akai himself.

-> Technically, it could be Vermouth in the scarred Akai disguise, and make up to hide the scars, but why would Vermouth be dressing up and appearing as Akai anyway, and I think she was at the time preoccupied with Yukiko.

Also, neither "extradition" nor "extraterritorial jurisdiction" means that the FBI can come into Japan anytime and arrest someone who is wanted by them. Extradition simply means an accused person in, e.g. Japan being sent over to, e.g. USA pursuant to a request, or a legal treaty. But it is still the Japanese police who do the arrest and custody, unless they give the authorisation to the FBI to step in - something which the FBI does not have (yet) in this case. Extraterritorial jurisdiction just means an accused person, having been lawfully arrested and legally extradited to e.g. the USA, can be tried in a court of law in the USA for an offence with s/he committed in another country, e.g. Japan.

-> I don't dispute the fact that Conan will probably keep Jodie and the FBI up to date about what happens. But saying that the FBI ought to have arrested Vermouth and Bourbon is going a little too far.. They are far too experienced with the BO, they know that any BO agent that appears will be prepared to complete their mission without leaving behind any evidence. Who exactly were the witnesses to the attempted murder here? (1) Kid, who is not about to appear in front of the police any time soon, (2) Akai, who is still pretending to be dead, and (3) whoever was giving instructions/listening in to Kid - maybe Conan/Haibara - an elementary school kid. Even if the FBI appear at the station, they simply don't have enough to request permission from the Japanese police to search for and arrest BO agents. And as someone pointed out, the FBI is not even supposed to know that there is an agent known as Bourbon, or they would prejudice Kir's position. Capturing the BO would require a far more elaborate plan imo.

[El Huesudo II]

And as someone pointed out, the FBI is not even supposed to know that there is an agent known as Bourbon, or they would prejudice Kir's position. Capturing the BO would require a far more elaborate plan imo.

At this point, they'll need a plan to take them all out at once. Or a plan to get Kir out again before they begin to move.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I don't know why I am arguing here about already revealed things, but I am feeling masochistic today...

1) no good way to change between the two.

And if Okiya had an Akai wig with him that Yukiko prepared ahead of time just in case he needed it?
I still think Okiya's hair is likely a well stuck down wig though based on the quick change, but that's a personal opinion.

2) Okiya job should be keep an eye and protecting Haibara.

He had already done so, and either she was unconscious stuffed in a room somewhere safe or he had run her down on the plan and told her what to say. (Most likely the first option.) Yukiko was keeping Vermouth busy and Kid occupied Bourbon. There were no other BO members on the car.

KID was briefed a little bit. We Know Conan give him a picture. And Conan being the way he is and knowing KID will have to help himself as all others are tied down could also give him a picture of Akai and say that the bad guys seeing him will create confusion. Kid and his assistant could take it from there.

But also why risk bring him out to help KID of all people? Why remove protection from the BO target to help someone who is a decoy?

Read 824 again.

Sstimson, for the love of Gosho, just give up. This is going to sound harsh, and I know you tried really hard, but your theories turned out wrong at every turn. Rather than make yourself a fool by blundering on anyway, you should wisely stop and reflect on your thoughts and how you will change your approach to do better next time. Bourbon really existed, and wasn't Kir's contact. Vermouth did not collaborate with team Shin-chan. No extra BO, FBI, CIA, whatever agents have gotten closely involved. Okiya has done pretty much everything to announce he is Akai Shuuichi except rip off his glasses, put on a beanie, and do a jig on Amuro's car using an Accuracy International Arctic Warfare rifle as a dance cane.

^Yes that was Sonoci bait.

[sstimson]

Just #2 for now Chekhov. Check page 15 and I quote "She ,herself will be waiting in a separate room and will tell you everything you need to know, via an earphone" That means that Haibara is very awake and is involved in the plan. So it is not either. But knowing history, why do you believe that Conan will not appoint a guard to make sure Haibbara does not do something foolish. If Okiya is that guard then he is with Haibara at this time and as a person can not be in two places at once means that the "Akai" appearance can not be him. Are you really going to tell me that Conan is just going to allow her to be by herself with no protection? I would bet that if she was left by herself, that in order to protect her friends, would indeed do something stupid. Okiya must be with her the whole time to prevent that and as we know she is not asleep, he must be there to make sure she does not leave that room.

You can tell if you look if someone is just wearing a wig or not. If one is also the other, that a mask like when Vermouth acted like Radish is needed. The two to me look very different. The eye shape might point to Akai and this put him in danger. He need to change the max items, not the minimum to be sure to be safe. The time need to go between the two should be more time then you relies.

However KID being a master and sure to have a change kit could make one of his assistance Akai for a necessary distraction

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Just #2 for now Chekhov. Check page 15 and I quote "She ,herself will be waiting in a separate room and will tell you everything you need to know, via an earphone" That means that Haibara is very awake and is involved in the plan. So it is not either. But knowing history, why do you believe that Conan will not appoint a guard to make sure Haibbara does not do something foolish. If Okiya is that guard then he is with Haibara at this time and as a person can not be in two places at once means that the "Akai" appearance can not be him. Are you really going to tell me that Conan is just going to allow her to be by herself with no protection? I would bet that if she was left by herself, that in order to protect her friends, would indeed do something stupid. Okiya must be with her the whole time to prevent that and as we know she is not asleep, he must be there to make sure she does not leave that room.

Or Conan was lying and someone (him or Akai/Okiya) used a voice changer to impersonate Shiho's voice. Remember Haibara was sleeping on Agasa's shoulder. Why would she go to sleep after that? Also don't forget Agasa went to find her. Maybe Conan signaled Agasa to go look for her when Okiya made his move so she would not be left alone very long. Besides, Conan has left Haibara with no protection before; he locked her in Agasa's basement home alone once while Vermouth was trying to kidnap her.

You can tell if you look if someone is just wearing a wig or not. If one is also the other, that a mask like when Vermouth acted like Radish is needed. The two to me look very different. The eye shape might point to Akai and this put him in danger. He need to change the max items, not the minimum to be sure to be safe. The time need to go between the two should be more time then you relies.

Fast disguises are consistently shown to be near perfect in the DC world. This point doesn't stand in light of what characters have said and done in the past.

[sstimson]

Just #2 for now Chekhov. Check page 15 and I quote "She ,herself will be waiting in a separate room and will tell you everything you need to know, via an earphone" That means that Haibara is very awake and is involved in the plan. So it is not either. But knowing history, why do you believe that Conan will not appoint a guard to make sure Haibbara does not do something foolish. If Okiya is that guard then he is with Haibara at this time and as a person can not be in two places at once means that the "Akai" appearance can not be him. Are you really going to tell me that Conan is just going to allow her to be by herself with no protection? I would bet that if she was left by herself, that in order to protect her friends, would indeed do something stupid. Okiya must be with her the whole time to prevent that and as we know she is not asleep, he must be there to make sure she does not leave that room.

Or Conan was lying and someone (him or Akai/Okiya) used a voice changer to impersonate Shiho's voice. Remember Haibara was sleeping on Agasa's shoulder. Why would she go to sleep after that? Also don't forget Agasa went to find her. Maybe Conan signaled Agasa to go look for her when Okiya made his move so she would not be left alone very long. Besides, Conan has left Haibara with no protection before, but only when he suspected that no one else was trying to get to her. He locked her in Agasa's basement once while Vermouth was trying to kidnap her.

You can tell if you look if someone is just wearing a wig or not. If one is also the other, that a mask like when Vermouth acted like Radish is needed. The two to me look very different. The eye shape might point to Akai and this put him in danger. He need to change the max items, not the minimum to be sure to be safe. The time need to go between the two should be more time then you relies.

Fast disguises are consistently shown to be near perfect in the DC world. This point doesn't stand in light of what characters have said and done in the past.

What about the DB then? You going to leave them alone to get in to trouble. Haibara asleep is misdirection, A red herring. Conan has no reason to lie. Also Would not the best person to help KID act like Sherry be Sherry herself? I think KID being wanted by the FBI and Japanese Police would not want them near him. He want to be able to control his acting job and this would be done by someone that he trust like one of his assistants? Beside there is the time reaction factor. Is is very unlikely that Okiya would be near where the action is taking place. It is must more likely he and Haibara will be as far as possible from the action. That being so means that not only would Okiya have to go through the whole train he need to do it in seconds once he learns that KID needs help. But if KID got an assistant nearby , then they could make the appearance at a moment notice when KID say a code word like "I'll turn down that offer". Also note that at this time where Korogou and Asaga are. With the DB's It was Sera, not Haibara that was left alone. And as se is in no real danger and is not a danger to herself, that makes sense.

[El Huesudo II]

Or Conan was lying and someone (him or Akai/Okiya) used a voice changer to impersonate Shiho's voice. Remember Haibara was sleeping on Agasa's shoulder. Why would she go to sleep after that? Also don't forget Agasa went to find her. Maybe Conan signaled Agasa to go look for her when Okiya made his move so she would not be left alone very long. Besides, Conan has left Haibara with no protection before; he locked her in Agasa's basement home alone once while Vermouth was trying to kidnap her.

It would be wiser to have Haibara telling Kid what to say instead of knocking her out and using a voice-changer. It was the best bet. Haibara didn't need protection, as she was acting from within the dead man's car, no one would have bothered to look inside that car as people were being evacuated for their safety, Vermouth was being kept busy by Yukiko, and Bourbon was already facing "Sherry". No one would be looking for Haibara then, except for Ran, who was stalled by Agasa (who's in on Conan's plans most, if not all, of the time). If I'm right and Agasa was in on the plan, then he would have known where to look to find Haibara after the whole ordeal was over. As for why would she go to sleep after that, well, people get exhausted after a stressful situation. She could also have been faking sleep in order to avoid uncomfortable questions.

And yeah, we already know what happened when Conan left Haibara without protection before, she simply tracked him down and got herself into trouble. She was lucky to have an Angel by her side.

[Kor]

But if KID got an assistant nearby , then they could make the appearance at a moment notice when KID say a code word like "I'll turn down that offer".

Who is this assistant, then? Why would Kid need a second assistant? Did we see him somewhere in the case or was he just behind the scenes? For someone who isn't Akai he sure seemed to be able to give quite an "Akai" expression even though he has never seen him before. But wait, what if this Akai impersonator Kid assistant did a mistake? That would be a bummer right? Speaking of which, we don't see Conan in a flashback telling Kid "By the way, also in case you randomly have another assistant on the train for no good reason what so ever, please dress him up as this dude in the picture. Everyone thinks he's dead, so please tell your hopefully competent random nameless assistant that he has to be very careful and not reveal himself completely in case of trouble"
But at the end, the simplest and most logical explanation is that it was Okiya. With this explanation, you use only the tools you have from the case, and you don't need to invent a "never before seen nameless Kid assistant"

About whoever told Kid what to say - as I said in the beginning of the case, the info Kid got is info that Akai knew as well. Kidbara barely "acts" like Sherry here. Not to mention that he only talks at the start (and all of what he says has more to do with Akai's and Bourbon's relationship than anything that has to do with Sherry herself). In the rest of the conversation monologue it's just Bourbon talking on and on about his master plan.

[sstimson]

So you are saying it is impossible for KID to have setup his assistant as Akai? You are saying that Conan would leave Haibara alone even with her history of "trying to protect" her friends?

As for "mistake" how hard is it to smirk? That even though you are a Thief, you welcome a office of the law coming near you who likely knows who you are?

[Kor]

So you are saying it is impossible for KID to have setup his assistant as Akai? You are saying that Conan would leave Haibara alone even with her history of "trying to protect" her friends?

As for "mistake" how hard is it to smirk? That even though you are a Thief, you welcome a office of the law coming near you who likely knows who you are?

So you are saying that even though I asked perfectly reasonable questions, the only way you're going to reply is by asking me different questions? If your theory has any logical base, you should be able to answer at least a few of these questions.
Also you misunderstood what I wrote. The "smirk" bit and the "mistake" bit are two separate questions. I'll put it in a way you will surely understand:
1) For someone who has never seen Akai, how come your nameless Kid assistant gave such a convincing Akai expression?
2) What if this Akai impersonator Kid assistant did a mistake? Why would Conan trust a Kid assistant to do it all correctly rather than let's say....let the actual Akai do it himself (since you know, you have Akai on?

I can accept your answer of "it's easy to smirk" if you wish to go with that one, but you still have a....let's see....five other questions to answer.

In case you didn't understand the fifth question, it's basically:
Where was the flashback about Conan asking Kid to disguise his random assistant in an Akai costume? Why was it not there? After all it was part of the things that Conan told Kid, so why didn't it happen in Kid's flashback?

[sstimson]

Conan left KID to figure out how to keep himself safe. Think you are being asked to do something very dangerous. Why would you not try to get as mush intel as possible. Beside Conan almost said straight out You on your own.

Again Logical thinking. If KID has ever visited the USA, then as he normally does he would have stole something and thn returned it. But to do so he might have broke a different law like impression of a office of the law. It is possible the FBI has seen KID, and vise versa
so 1) My smirk comment. 2) Conan does not trust the assistant. Conan hopes (I would not say trust) that KID is prepared enough to be able to take care of himself. I think Conan basically left the details to KID on how to stay safe.
To try and again make you understand Conan ask KID to act as Haibara. He did not tell KID how to escape. KID in a way said as much.

[ShinRan4ver]

So you are saying it is impossible for KID to have setup his assistant as Akai? You are saying that Conan would leave Haibara alone even with her history of "trying to protect" her friends?

As for "mistake" how hard is it to smirk? That even though you are a Thief, you welcome a office of the law coming near you who likely knows who you are?

How would the FBI, who before this case had zero legal authority in Japan and couldn't even legally carry a gun all the sudden going to go all official and arrest Bourbon and Vermouth at the station?? Also the station is full of innocent bystands, if the Police did show up and Bourbon/Vermouth resist and it turns into a gun fight it would be a scenario FBI/Japanese Police would do everything in their power to avoid.

I would go back to Episode 425(at the end), where Akai mentioned he didn't shoot to immobilize the entire BO operation team by shooting their legs because escalating the situation could get civilians hurt, even though he had the clear advantage(he is beyond effective range both BO snipers and had already took one  of the sniper rifles out of action by shooting through its scope). By looking at FBI's M.O in episode 425 you can clearly see they look to corner single BO member where there aren't civilians and capture them without causing a scene-> their attempt to capture Kir which was botched by the boy who run on the road.

[aly_angelflight]

Reading over the chapter again... I noticed that when Conan was calling his mother, the victim's body was right behind him. Did he even leave cabin 8 in the first place?

[El Huesudo II]

Reading over the chapter again... I noticed that when Conan was calling his mother, the victim's body was right behind him. Did he even leave cabin 8 in the first place?

Isn't that the crowd panicking?