Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

snuzzle wrote:
James Rye wrote: Tagaki/Sato is a possiblity, but aren´t they in the murderer dezenat? This was robbery and body injurying so far, dunno if they have to come or not. But i wouldn´t mind seing them.^^
It's a murder now, the guy died in the last page.
Unless you have a spoiler for that, it's unconfirmed. He might have just passed out from blood loss. The wound looked like it was in a pretty bad place (Is there a good place in the torso to take a knife?); a bit too low for the heart, but I don't think a lung was hit since he wasn't coughing up blood. The next chapter will reveal the man's fate definitively.
Also I just realized something. The guy doesn't have the knife still in him, so the attacker must have run off with the weapon. (Unless it is on the ground nearby and Gosho hasn't given us a shot of it). If the attacker stabbed the guy, then grabbed the backpack with a bloody hand, then the blood on the strap would make sense, but why would the Tori man take his backback off in the first place? Maybe the stabbed guy tried to struggle with him for it.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on December 6th, 2009, 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Abs. »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: If the attacker stabbed the guy, then grabbed the backpack with a bloody hand, then the blood on the strap would make sense, but why would the Tori man take his backback off in the first place? Maybe the stabbed guy tried to struggle with him for it.
That, and the incongruity of the Tori-Man carrying around the past stolen articles, leads one to believe that someone besides the Tori-Man (who I say is the victim) had been collecting the cast-offs, brought them to the scene of this crime, and purposefully left the "evidence" behind.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Abs. wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: If the attacker stabbed the guy, then grabbed the backpack with a bloody hand, then the blood on the strap would make sense, but why would the Tori man take his backback off in the first place? Maybe the stabbed guy tried to struggle with him for it.
That, and the incongruity of the Tori-Man carrying around the past stolen articles, leads one to believe that someone besides the Tori-Man (who I say is the victim) had been collecting the cast-offs, brought them to the scene of this crime, and purposefully left the "evidence" behind.
Maybe the guy knows the Tori man and was going to confront him about it? That way the stabbed guy doesn't have to be an accomplice.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Read and Gold Phoenix »

snuzzle wrote: It's been pointed out in the manga and anime again and again, a lot of Japanese names and words can be taken from numbers or turned into numbers (wasn't there a whole episode or movie which revolved around Kogoro's friends being targeted in the order of their number-names?)

So maybe this nine has to do with the name of the Toro man. Maybe there are characters in his name for nine and monkey? I don't know a lick of Japanese... so if that sounds silly, then disregard ^^

I do agree though.... my first though was that the guy who got stabbed was the original Toro man (or one of the Toro men).
James Rye wrote: Tagaki/Sato is a possiblity, but aren´t they in the murderer dezenat? This was robbery and body injurying so far, dunno if they have to come or not. But i wouldn´t mind seing them.^^
It's a murder now, the guy died in the last page.
Oh he actually died? GOOOD! yes, bring in division one! ;D
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by GinRei »

I'm willing to bet that "monkey" doesn't actually have anything to do with the case, and is in fact a red herring that Conan has to decipher.  Mostly because the victim says "Saru" in katakana rather than kanji or even hiragana.  Conan's the one who assumes it to be monkey, and thinks it in the form of kanji.

Something's fishy in that!
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Abs. »

Ah but GinRei... Animals are often referred to in katakana, vs. kanji and hiragana.

Silliness under spoiler...
Spoiler:
MAYBE HE MEANT 12 MONKEYS and the biohazard guys have something to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Conan 48:69 »

There are 3 suspects in a case (as usual), first man named Hino Tatsuo whose face looks identical to monkey, second man named Sarukawa Hisami and Saru means monkey in Japanese and third man named Mizunoe Shinji. When Sonoko didn't know about Koshien, Conan-kun explains about Koshien halfway, Conan understands the criminal is connected to zodiac, as Koshien as Kou is sign of monkey in ten signs zodiac and Shi is sign of mouse in Chinese zodiac. Mizunoe Shinji's 申(Shin) refer to monkey is the ninth zodiac. So the criminal is Mizunoe Shinji.
Last edited by Conan 48:69 on December 8th, 2009, 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

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Abs. wrote: Ah but GinRei... Animals are often referred to in katakana, vs. kanji and hiragana.

Silliness under spoiler...
Spoiler:
MAYBE HE MEANT 12 MONKEYS and the biohazard guys have something to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A shocking truth !
Spoiler:
The guy who has been stabbed actually an agent on dangerous missions to the past to collect information on the virus, thought to be released by a terrorist organization known as the Army of the Twelve Monkeys
Yes ! it's foreshadowing the 14 movie about those biohazard guys :D
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

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I always knew the monkeys were planning to take over the world. I think it's our old head's luminous green mutant monkeys that he bred under the school and disguised as first years.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by NekoHaruko »

Conan 48:69 wrote: There are 3 suspects in a case (as usual), first man looks identical to monkey, second and third man's names have a word "monkey". When Sonoko didn't know about Koshien, Conan-kun explains about Koshien halfway, Conan understands the criminal is connected to zodiac, as Koshien as Kou is sign of monkey in ten signs zodiac and Shi is sign of mouse in Chinese zodiac. 申 refer to monkey is the ninth zodiac. So the criminal is 水江申次.
So... The next chapter is just for ShinRan moments then? Sure seems like that...
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Conan 48:69 wrote: There are 3 suspects in a case (as usual)
Now we get the suspects... too late for a poll.
Conan 48:69 wrote: first man looks identical to monkey, second and third man's names have a word "monkey". When Sonoko didn't know about Koshien, Conan-kun explains about Koshien halfway, Conan understands the criminal is connected to zodiac, as Koshien as Kou is sign of monkey in ten signs zodiac and Shi is sign of mouse in Chinese zodiac. 申 refer to monkey is the ninth zodiac. So the criminal is 水江申次.
My reasoning is pretty close to yours, with one minor difference. I haven't sorted everything out yet so there are some incomplete parts I will have to work on later.UPDATED (despoilered for easier searching)

Explanation of Koshien
From wiki: The name Kōshien (甲子園) comes from the Sexagenary cycle system. The year of the stadium's founding, 1924, was the first year kōshi (甲子) in the cycle. The Chinese sexagenary cycle is a rotating system based on two astronomical systems: the “celestial stem” which combines the classical five Chinese elements with Yin and Yang for a total of ten components and “Earthly Branches” which uses the same 12 component ordering system as the zodiac except that it was used for telling time. The sexagenary cycle is formed by taking the first item of the celestial stem and sticking it together with the first item on the “Earthly Branches” to make a “Stem Branch”. Then you take the next item on both lists… since the cycles are of unequal length you have to make 60 stem branches (i.e go through each list more than once) before you return to the first one.
“Kōshi” is broken up into Kō and Shi. Kō is heavenly stem number 1 (甲) and shi is Earthly Branches number 1 (子) which incidentally is the rat.

Suspect name games
Hino Tatsuo 火野辰男: Hino sounds very close to the kun'yomi reading of Heavenly stem number (HSN) 3 “hinoe” (火の兄) (Yang fire). Tatsuo sounds very close to the kun'yomi reading of Earthly Branch (EB) 5 “tatsu” (辰) for dragon. Suspect #1 is probably closest to stem branch (sb) 3-5 “Hinoe-Tatsu” (Yang Fire Dragon)

Sarukawa Hisami 猿川久巳: Before I go into any of the sexagenary cycle discussion, there is an obvious wordplay to point out. Saruwaka goes by the nickname “Kyuu” which can mean the number 9 because of the 久 in his name. Sarukawa also contains “saru” which means monkey of course so the connection to nine monkies should be obvious. Sarukawa would correspond to EB 9: the monkey “saru”. Also the character 巳 in Hisami is the same as the one used for EB 6: snake. Hisami sounds close to the word Hisaki (火先) meaning “flames, forefront of fire, or flame tips.” Fire would correspond with HS 3 or 4. For suspect #2 SBs 3-9 or 4-9 are probably the closest, but 3-6 or 4-6 might also fit.

Mizunoe Shinji 水江申次: Mizunoe corresponds directly to HSN 9 of the same name (水の兄). Shinji is closest to “shin” which is the Onyomi read of EB 5 the dragon (辰) and also the Onyomi read of our friend EB 9 the monkey (申). So suspect #3 can correspond to either SB 9-5 or 9-9.

In the name games, suspects #2 and #3, Sarukawa Hisami and Mizunoe Shinji, are the most suspicious. 9 monkeys best fits Mizunoe Shinji of course.

It is possible to consider the EB formed by calculating their birthyears according to the current date, but I doubt Gosho would base a puzzle around this as it would become defunct as soon as the year ends.

The alibis
If the stabbed guy was the Tori man for the first two fests, none of the suspects have a working alibi.

The running person
Conan mentioned the guy who was sweating after running. I'm not too sure about this. Mizunoe would be sweating from his run if he was the stabber. Mizunoe has his jacket untucked and completely unbuttoned. His collar is also strange; is it a turtleneck of just messy? The arms of his jacket are also creased excessively. The creases just seem to be the art style, nevermind. One of the other suspects was wearing warmer winter clothing with a scarf, while the other, who is in traditional clothing has on a furry traditional jacket and shows no sign of sweat marks around the neck of his light colored short as would be expected of someone running.

Timeline and details of the crime

Mizunoe was making illegal transactions which meant the passbook had evidence of book cooking. The Tori man stole Mizunoe's bag which had his ID and passbook, and he rifled through it along with the other bags and found the passbook. In the process of ransacking the items, he forgot which one was Mizunoe's. Mizunoe registered his items as stolen, but soon after doing so, the Tori man began blackmailing Mizunoe about some accounting irregularities seen in the passbook. Mizunoe and the Tori man set up a meeting to exchange money for the passbook and his other belongings.
Mizunoe prepared ahead of time a matching jacket, a hyottoko mask, and the knife since he intended to kill the Tori-man while dressed has him to remove suspicion from himself. Mizunoe was afraid that if the Tori-man had his identity uncovered, the police would look into him who reported his items stolen and may uncover evidence of the cooked books. Mizunoe took a business trip during the second rooster festival when he presumed the Tori-man would strike again so he would have an alibi in case he was caught by police as a suspect. The Tori man did indeed strike at the second rooster festival and lost a button when he ran into Ran.
Mizunoe came to the rooster festival dressed in the jacket. Along the way, he had a bento, and he probably stuffed the receipt in his jacket pocket since he looked for it in his pockets during the police questioning. The Tori-man meanwhile came in normal clothes with the daypack, having left the jacket with the missing button at his home. Not remembering whose belongings were whose or perhaps not caring, the Tori man just stuffed everything into random bags. When they met and Mizunoe stabbed the Tori man while dressed as the Tori-man himself, Mizunoe knelt down and began to rifle through the belongings looking for his passbook and wallet. The wallet he found, but Mizunoe didn't find the passbook before people saw him. --> Remember, the witnesses say they only saw the Tori-man leave the side of the stabbed guy, not actually stab him. Since the witnesses were in hot pursuit, Mizunoe was forced to throw the bag at them to buy some time to escape. In the bathroom, he discarded the jacket with the receipt for the bento still inside one of its pocket along with the knife and the mask.

The things that will nail Mizunoe is the receipt for a bento in the discarded jacket pocket and possibly also the ID not being replaced despite his wallet being stolen. In addition, the "Shin" of Mizunoe Shinji can be written with multiple characters so only someone who read the name (in the passbook for instance) would know it was the character for monkey (申) instead of one of the many other kanji that can be used to write it. The stabbed guy didn't have belongings for any of the other suspects so that eliminates them. The proof the stabbed guy is the actual Tori Man will be a jacket missing a button at his house.

The shadow guy
Kyogoku Makoto for sure. He would recognize Ran and may have heard Sonoko had her purse snatched last festival and that she might be going to another one. More likely he is there for a rake for success in fighting since Ran did mention the tournaments were imminent. Or maybe he wants the male version of the love love fortunes?
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on June 15th, 2013, 4:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Abs. »

#1 suspicious - Mizunoe because he still had his ID after having his wallet stolen.  Also, for some reason couldn't find his receipt for the bento he bought at the convenience store <-- this should not be a throwaway point!

#1 reason the stabbed guy is the Tori-Man - there was no indication that his identification had been in someone else's bag.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by snuzzle »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
snuzzle wrote:
James Rye wrote: Tagaki/Sato is a possiblity, but aren´t they in the murderer dezenat? This was robbery and body injurying so far, dunno if they have to come or not. But i wouldn´t mind seing them.^^
It's a murder now, the guy died in the last page.
Unless you have a spoiler for that, it's unconfirmed. He might have just passed out from blood loss. The wound looked like it was in a pretty bad place (Is there a good place in the torso to take a knife?); a bit too low for the heart, but I don't think a lung was hit since he wasn't coughing up blood.
Well, I guess technically, but look at his face, the way it got drawn in shadow like that. I think that's pretty good proof that he's dead ("the light went out" as they say.) But I guess there's a small chance he's still alive... but until the next chapter comes out, I will personally be assuming he's dead. :P
Last edited by snuzzle on December 8th, 2009, 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

snuzzle wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
snuzzle wrote:
James Rye wrote: Tagaki/Sato is a possiblity, but aren´t they in the murderer dezenat? This was robbery and body injurying so far, dunno if they have to come or not. But i wouldn´t mind seing them.^^
It's a murder now, the guy died in the last page.
Unless you have a spoiler for that, it's unconfirmed. He might have just passed out from blood loss. The wound looked like it was in a pretty bad place (Is there a good place in the torso to take a knife?); a bit too low for the heart, but I don't think a lung was hit since he wasn't coughing up blood.
Well, I guess technically, but look at his face, the way it got drawn in shadow like that. I think that's pretty good proof that he's dead ("the light went out" as they say.) But I guess there's a small chance he's still alive... but until the next chapter comes out, I will personally be assuming he's dead. :P
It's official, he's alive, but he just claims to not remember anything about nine monkeys.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on January 26th, 2010, 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nine Monkeys Tori Man Case (716-718?)

Post by James Rye »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Spoiler:
It's official, he's alive, but he just claims to not remember anything about nine monkeys.
Spoiler:
Ah, really? Now it´s getting interesting. ;D
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