Thoughts: Will Shiho Miyano Return?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Ran who care about her dearly

ಠ_ಠ

I'd say jumping on someone in order to be a bullet shield is pretty good sign of caring. Ran was also the first one to notice Ai getting weak in the sun at the one beach case too - before Conan and Agasa. Ran repeatedly tried to introduce herself to Ai despite being "rejected" multiple times. People play up the Ai - Ran rivalry because of pairing wars and character hate, but the truth is they get along and care about one another.

[ranger]

Ran who care about her dearly

ಠ_ಠ

I'd say jumping on someone in order to be a bullet shield is pretty good sign of caring. Ran was also the first one to notice Ai getting weak in the sun at the one beach case too - before Conan and Agasa. Ran repeatedly tried to introduce herself to Ai despite being "rejected" multiple times. People play up the Ai - Ran rivalry because of pairing wars and character hate, but the truth is they get along and care about one another.

I always felt like the whole Ran and Ai relationship felt really tacked on.  I mean, you're right with the evidence that you're supporting - but, I mean, Ai disliked Ran for the longest time, and of all sudden opens up - simply because she looks like her sister?   Sounds like some pretty crappy character development.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Ran actually "cares about her dearly" and is not just acting like typical Ran.  For all the scenarios in which Ran helps Ai, you could probably replace Ai with any other character in the DC universe and she would probably do the same.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I always felt like the whole Ran and Ai relationship felt really tacked on.  I mean, you're right with the evidence that you're supporting - but, I mean, Ai disliked Ran for the longest time, and of all sudden opens up - simply because she looks like her sister?  Sounds like some pretty crappy character development.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Ran actually "cares about her dearly" and is not just acting like typical Ran.  For all the scenarios in which Ran helps Ai, you could probably replace Ai with any other character in the DC universe and she would probably do the same.

I don't think Ai ever disliked Ran, I think she was apprehensive about the Akemi thing you mentioned, but also because Ran blocked any relationship Ai might desire with Conan. That is Ai had no reason to dislike Ran for who she is as a person, but Ran was associated with unpleasantness. Haibara realized she had no reason to continue avoiding Ran for such flimsy reasons, especially since Ran seemed to care about her. It was part of Haibara's opening up, focusing on others more than her own security (both physical and emotional) character development, so I don't feel it was tacked on. Recall Haibara went from a more self-centered person ("I don't care about abstract notions like justice", I'm going to suicide to make everyone safe without thinking about their feelings about me dying at all), to one more willing to risk herself and endure the pressure of the Black Organization in order to maintain connections with the others who care about her ("Don't run away").

True Ran tends to be self sacrificial, but Ran notices Ai's feelings more often than she seems to for the other DB, and not just because Ai is weird like Sonoko notices.

@Sherry86, I'll get back to you. Long post will need to be long.

[Citan]

You have it backwards, Ranger. Ai was avoiding Ran at first BECAUSE she reminded her so strongly of her sister. She eventually let down her guard (As much as Ai EVER lets down her guard) to her.

As for the "Bullet-Shield" thing, well... A child was in danger, and Ran (Being Ran) would never just stand by and let a child be shot. You could probably remove Haibara and plug in any of the DBs in that same situation and she'd likely have done the same. So I agree with you there. PARTLY. If I remember it was AFTER that scene that the heat-sickness thing accured. So you could argue that the "Bullet-Shielding" incident was the catalyst that helped them bond. Maybe they're not as close as sisters or anything like that, but as Chekhov pointed out, Ran certainly seems to be better at reading Ai than anyone else lately.

PS : Drat. Chekhov beat me to the rebuttal.

[ranger]

Nah the heat-sickness thing was well before Ran saving Ai from a professional sniper who missed all his shots.

The whole Ran knows Ai best thing also seems kind of strange.  Out of everyone, why Ran? I mean they have hardly any interactions between each other - the fact is pretty much no one knows Ai well, not Conan or even Agasa who is essentially like a father/uncle to her.

Hm I would justify Ran blocking Ai's attempt at a romantic relationship with Conan as disliking her.  Just a tiny bit biased here But, I mean in real life, I would be pretty angry at the person who's dating someone I potentially like/love.

Then again, I do have a biased opinion on all of this; to be honest, even though Ai is probably the one character in DC that actually has character development, her growth has kind of made me start disliking her more and more.  What drew me in was this mysterious evil girl that was integral to finally getting close to the Black Org, not some minor character who babysits the children.

Before the climax/middle point of the series, Ai and Ran pretty much were looked upon as rivals/not friends.  But then, after that whole bullet shielding nonsense, it was like bam, thats all gone.  It just felt strange.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

The whole Ran knows Ai best thing also seems kind of strange.  Out of everyone, why Ran? I mean they have hardly any interactions between each other - the fact is pretty much no one knows Ai well, not Conan or even Agasa who is essentially like a father/uncle to her.

Ran is shown to be especially sensitive to everyone's feelings - except Shinichi maybe. She seems to have picked up on that Haibara isn't like the other kids - Conan included in this - and is a loner type who shouldn't be left alone.

Hm I would justify Ran blocking Ai's attempt at a romantic relationship with Conan as disliking her.  Just a tiny bit biased here But, I mean in real life, I would be pretty angry at the person who's dating someone I potentially like/love.

I think the relationship block was more imporant at first, but then took a backseat to the uncomfortable Akemi-ness when Ai got to know Ran better.

Then again, I do have a biased opinion on all of this; to be honest, even though Ai is probably the one character in DC that actually has character development, her growth has kind of made me start disliking her more and more.  What drew me in was this mysterious evil girl that was integral to finally getting close to the Black Org, not some minor character who babysits the children.

I have moved past a lot of character like-dislike in the conventional sense**, so I don't find the dark protagonist trope to be particularly engaging vs other types of characters. I think Haibara's development has been done well and treated with complexity not seen in other DC characters. Even in her relationship with Conan, at first Haibara comes on to Conan in part because he is a protector, but as Haibara has developed, she has since backed off of Conan, not only because Ran was there to block, but also because Haibara is now less centered on her own security. Now she likes Conan more for who he is rather than what he can provide her. I think this was a brilliant and surprisingly subtle move for Gosho who usually prefers his relationship dynamics to be blatantly obvious and relatively simple. This is why I lean AiCon: Not because I like Haibara more than Ran - I'm pretty neutral on that, but because the plot dynamics were treated better and more complexly, even though it hasn't worked out for Ai.
**By conventional sense I mean liking or disliking characters for their personality (annoying, stupid, cries a lot), their actions (gets into trouble, overconfident proclamations), emotional outbreaks, character type (ice queen, dark past, pretty boy), pairings, etc. I care more about their role in the overall plot, their global place in the character interaction web, and if they create good mysteries.

Before the climax/middle point of the series, Ai and Ran pretty much were looked upon as rivals/not friends.  But then, after that whole bullet shielding nonsense, it was like bam, that's all gone.  It just felt strange.

They were never really rivals; I think most of that sense comes from fan preference coloring them. Haibara might have felt a little rivalry over Conan because of the relationship thing, but by the time of Vermouth's climax, as I mentioned above, the relationship jealously declined soon after Haibara was introduced and was replaced by Akemi-awkwardess. Ran never had any rivalry sense of course, so it makes sense that she has absolutely no inhibition about helping Haibara.

---

RE: Sherry86
Rather than the usual serial quote thing I normally do, I'm going to try a different style of reply...

It's clear Shiho is happier as Ai. 99% of everything bad that has happened to her is a product of being Shiho and the enemies she has from that. Additionally, being Shiho has never brought her happiness in her Haibara life. When ever Shiho reflects on her Shiho years, it is the sad nostalgia of dead loved ones or the fear of the Black Organization. Shiho did try to commit suicide as an adult because of all the built up trouble, and the times she tried to commit suicide as Ai were caused by her adult past and the aforementioned fears.

The reason Shiho will lose a good chunk of her support network if she returns to being Shiho is because
1) She faces far more danger than Shinichi
2) The process of being prosecuted, hunted by the Org, witness protected, or whatever she does will by necessity limit contact and thus the support of those who care about her. Note this has nothing to do with those who were close to her (like Agasa) liking her less.

Shinichi has the support of the police and an acute detective sense to protect him. Shiho is a criminal, cared for by those close to her alone. There is no love for a traitor. Killing Shinichi won't help the Black Org in their endeavors after they have been exposed because law enforcement will rise to take his place. Killing Shiho on the other hand, a source of information, is more valuable.
In terms of a straight revenge target, traitors (and spies) take higher priority over straight "law enforcement types" like Shinichi. The reaction against someone seemingly loyal siding with the enemy was and is worse than the animosity towards enemies; the penalties for treason are some of the most brutal in history.

Add to this that Shiho will likely be prosecuted which will place her in jail among the criminals she was trying to escape from. Contact is strongly limited in jail, and comes at a much slower pace, so she will lose some of emotional support of Agasa, Shinichi, and the DB, whose parents I imagine would not like them associating with a murderer by proxy regardless of DB's feelings. This has nothing to do with them becoming emotionally detached as you thought I was suggesting. This is a system which limits and punishes associates of the investigated and convicted - and all that is on top of Japan's shame society. (Google that if you don't know what I mean.)

No, she wasn't. She always act like adults and talk like adults. All of her behavior screams adult. Even Sonoko noticed this. She want to be free from the Org, but she doesn't have any desire to become a child. Liking children doesn't equal to want to become one of them.

If Haibara wanted to return to being an adult, why has she not done so in the safety of Agasa's house? Haibara has never expressed anything ever about not wanting to be a child unlike Conan who comments about returning to Shinichi all the time. Sure sometimes she comments how her appearance gives her the goosebumps and she isn't used to it, but that doesn't mean she finds the entire situation negative.

You said that to the world where happiness means you have a lover? Nice one! Look at the heroin in that world! She's always crying because her lover wasn't by her side. Oh, and almost all of regular adult character in that world have lover. That world really full of love, don't you think so?

I think you are misreading this entirely. Having a lover in DC clearly makes characters happier, but the characters without them are not unhappy. (See Kobayashi before Shiratori for instance) If a character loses a lover (Sato), that's a problem, but not the situation I am talking about. DC is full of people with lovers, but that doesn't mean that Shiho is going to be sad because she can't have one until she grows up a few years first - Shiho is more mature than that. She likely had a pretty bad experience with one prior, so I'm sure she will be more mature and patient than most about relationships this time around.

Regarding the "Someone won't get true friend with some money and some lies." I think Agasa, Conan, and the DB count as Ai's friends.  Haibara has told them very little about her life. A lot of what Conan and Agasa know come from Agasa's knowledge, deductions, and the FBI, but as you yourself said and I agree with, they won't abandon her when they find out more of the truth of her past. That is because they believe in Ai's personality, and will place how she behaves as Haibara as more truthful and important than how she was as Shiho - a person who did terrible things on orders, and could do so because she played the cold, uncaring of others role to survive in that black hell. That is what I mean why Ai in some ways in less the lying life than her time as Shiho was.

I just knew there're scientist who didn't want to get appreciation from his/her hardwork. Even Atsushi wanted his research known by other scientist and he clearly didn't do it for fame.
Maybe Shiho has no desire for fame, but she will have desire for appreciation, especially from other scientist because the one who can appreciate scientist better is other scientist.

That's a pretty weak argument. Haibara is not the type who feeds off of the appreciation of others, and she can have the appreciation of those close to her like Agasa if she wants to talk science.

My optimism is based on Ai's words to Conan in Episode 130-131, she can endure being child and everything because Conan was there with her.

And Haibara's character has changed considerably since then, which I discussed with Ranger above. That Haibara and the current Haibara are no longer the same. Maybe early in the series she would have desired to turn back, but as her personality, ideals, and feelings towards others have changed, the life and future of Ai have flourished while Shiho has stagnated in the despair of the past.

[Misztina]

But wouldn't her supressed Shiho-past cause her even more damage if it remains supressed? Right now she is experiencing normal life, for which she is very thankful, however can she put her past behind?

I'm very curious about how Gosho will handle her character in the end, because both of her "states" Haibara & Shiho are good and bad in their own way.

[AICHAN]

But wouldn't her supressed Shiho-past cause her even more damage if it remains supressed? Right now she is experiencing normal life, for which she is very thankful, however can she put her past behind?

I'm very curious about how Gosho will handle her character in the end, because both of her "states" Haibara & Shiho are good and bad in their own way.

I'm curious too...The idea of erasing Shiho's identity and past is kinda disturbing for me...

[Citan]

But wouldn't her supressed Shiho-past cause her even more damage if it remains supressed? Right now she is experiencing normal life, for which she is very thankful, however can she put her past behind?

I'm very curious about how Gosho will handle her character in the end, because both of her "states" Haibara & Shiho are good and bad in their own way.

You act like there's a difference between them. Despite how much she badgers Conan to act like a child she doesn't do it so well herself. Personality-wise Haibara is just Shiho using another name. Many people change their names and do just fine. There's no indication she's repressing her past. That would indicate that she were subconsciously trying to block out her memories of Shiho. She obviously is not doing that, and if she chose to stay Haibara, I highly doubt she'd ever forget her "original life".

[mangaluva]

I don't think she's suppressing her memories of her life as Shiho. It's more likely that she's quietly torturing herself with them. She has heavily depressive tendencies, after all, and has commented on occasion that she thinks of herself as a murderer in a very blasé way. I think someday she'll be able to come to terms with it, so long as she's surrounded by people who love and support her- something that Ai has, and Shiho doesn't.

[Misztina]

No-no, that's not what I meant. Why is it only me who gets misunderstood, if I talk about them separetaly? Geez.

Anyways, I meant that as Haibara she does have a new "identity" (name, bckground, age), it is similar to being in a witness protection program. Let's say she stays a kid and will grow up as Haibara Ai. For outsiders she pretends she is a normal girl. I'm not sure whether the DB would know about her shady past and if they knew how would they handle that information. Let's say they will be okay with it. So?

By suppressing I mean that she is hiding it from others, not that she is trying to hide it from herself. And what Magaluva said, that she is torturing herself etc., that was what I meant.

[RWB]

I don't see the point of Shiho returning, really. Even if they somehow managed to destroy every single shred left of the organization(which is logically impossible, someone connected to them would always come away clean)... There is still no reason.

Everything happy that Shiho had is long lost. By returning to being Shiho, she would essentially go back to being a lonely outcast, and would lose all her friends outside those who know her secret.

Staying as Ai is the best thing that can happen, from a logical standpoint.


She has absolutely nothing to win by turning back... outside of competing with Ran for Shinichi? A duel that she does neither desire(as she really likes Ran), or have a chance of winning(and I say this as a big ConanAi fan)?


Heck, she can do that anyway if the two break up later in life(unlikely, but still). People break up even when they like each other(see Kogoro and Eri).


There really isn't any reason whatsoever for her to be Shiho. Period.

[AICHAN]

I don't see the point of Shiho returning, really. Even if they somehow managed to destroy every single shred left of the organization(which is logically impossible, someone connected to them would always come away clean)... There is still no reason.

Everything happy that Shiho had is long lost. By returning to being Shiho, she would essentially go back to being a lonely outcast, and would lose all her friends outside those who know her secret.

Staying as Ai is the best thing that can happen, from a logical standpoint.


She has absolutely nothing to win by turning back... outside of competing with Ran for Shinichi? A duel that she does neither desire(as she really likes Ran), or have a chance of winning(and I say this as a big ConanAi fan)?


Heck, she can do that anyway if the two break up later in life(unlikely, but still). People break up even when they like each other(see Kogoro and Eri).


There really isn't any reason whatsoever for her to be Shiho. Period.

I still disagree with that idea...If Shiho can be safe after the BO is destroyed she can stay with her friends and being happy again...By the way she is able to be friend with other people,she's not that desperate and she has changed...

She often says she's not a kid,I don't think she would like to be treated like a kid again while her mind is one of an adult...
I think this solution is too easy,it is not the best solution for me...and this has nothing to do with being an Aicon...

For me the best ending would be Shiho working for te FBI, like Jodie did,under her real name without lying to her friends about her past,her family...

Anyway i'm tired to repeat myself we'll see what Gosho will do in the end XDDD

[Kor]

For me the best ending would be Shiho working for te FBI, like Jodie did,under her real name without lying to her friends about her past,her family...

Hiring process

In order to apply to become an FBI agent, an applicant must be between the ages of 23 and 37. Due to the decision in Robert P. Isabella v. Department of State and Office of Personnel Management, 2008 M.S.P.B. 146, preference-eligible veterans may apply after age 37. In 2009, the Office of Personnel Management issued implementation guidance on the Isabella decision: OPM Letter.[54] The applicant must also hold American citizenship, have a clean record, and hold a four-year bachelors degree.

[mangaluva]

Personally, I'd like to challenge the assumption that Ai will never, ever, ever tell her friends about her past- specifically, Mitsuhiko, Genta, and Ayumi. I think it might be the kind of thing that she'd be able to let them in on in later life, in their late teens or early twenties, maybe. Because a) if they're still friends that long, then they will be close as it gets, and b) if they stick with being detectives, they're gonna see some pretty dark stuff anyway.

It's the kind of thing that she could confess to them, later on. And while she lies about her past, unlike Conan, she never really acts unlike herself; she hasn't affected any sort of personality change to blend in with the kids, aside from (sometimes badly) trying to hide her more depressive tendencies. It's even commented that it's just creepy when she acts like a kid. They may not know her past, but they know what kind of person that she is and accept and like her for it. In later years, she may well feel comfortable enough with them to tell them about it, or maybe she'll have moved past it so completely that it just isn't an issue for her. In the meantime, at least she's had a happy, peaceful (aside from random murders) childhood surrounded by friends who love and accept her.