What does the FBI know

[sstimson]

Again read or watch that case, and special note how Jodie questions about Haibara and Conan. Also while Chekhov might believe that the Pictures in Jodie's Bathroom were from Vermouth, I disagree. They look like they were taken by her and that means she has seen Shinichi in action. As I sure that the detective style between Conan, Korogou, Sonoko, and Shinichi are similar, she might even know that Conan is behind the Sleeping ... bit.

And I do agree with you about timing, which leads me to think we must have a mistranslation. After all there is no way I know of that Vermouth knew that Jodie knew that Dr Araide was her. So It not likely that Vermouth could have done as she said and dismissed all the FBI that Jodie would use to trap her, and as Jodie still has her cell, any such orders could be checked and found to be false. No that part at the moment also makes no sense

So to answer your question the best I can, I will say this. No one, not even Vermouth knew what was going to happen. Akai was there because he followed Jodie. I got a funny feeling that unknown forces cleaned up the events, and told the local police only what they need to know. That might explain how the FBI can do such things and get way scot-free. Again Vermouth might have watched the FBI practice a trap, but would she know the day they would spring it? Even if she knew the day she try her trick, and when it would happen, at the moment there is no evidence that the FBI also knew the date and thus the trap could only be set up in the amount of time that Jodie took to get to the trap place, it could not have been hours earlier. But I will say this that is not my final word on the matter.

As to your next point, in the start of the KIR case should prove that Jodie when she saw what Conan was doing, almost instantly changed her plan of the day and followed. That and her question to Vermouth do show a change in the way she sees Conan, Secretive and yet not. After all it is still his parents house and they could come at any time and look around, get things, etc. I got the feeling such a time has already come, and if so, there is a good chance that Okiya and Conan's parents meet, and that he is still there should tell you something. Okiya might be part of Conan's parents plan to make sure, that to a point, their son stays safe. Personal habits are hard to break. Akai personality seem to be hiding and secretive, while this new character Okiya is much more open. I can not see Akai out in the open watering Flowers because they need watering. He would be afraid of a bullet in the back. No Akai as Okiya does not fit for me, it seem too easy and I like to think writers would hide returning characters better then that. But Scar on the other hand seem just right to be Akai.

As for your last part, at  least when Jodie was there, we knew Akai was listening to the going ons'. If Vermouth's Bug was wireless then anyone knowing where to listen, could hear what was going on. Again it seem too easy for Jodie to just be close enough to get Haibara before Vermouth arrived. It could be she was lying in wait and listening to what Vermouth was listening to. Again I will keep looking for more evidence, But I am sure that Both Akai and Jodie know the truth, and at the moment the best answer for them knowing is that bug.

[Divin]

Again read or watch that case, and special note how Jodie questions about Haibara and Conan. Also while Chekhov might believe that the Pictures in Jodie's Bathroom were from Vermouth, I disagree. They look like they were taken by her and that means she has seen Shinichi in action. As I sure that the detective style between Conan, Korogou, Sonoko, and Shinichi are similar, she might even know that Conan is behind the Sleeping ... bit.

Of course those weren't Vermouth's pictures... stealing property while bugging a place is like leaving a card 'FBI was here'... 
But: Jodie has never seen Kogoro argue a case... when using Sonoko he gives the whole spoiled-arrogant-brat bit... and in all fairness: those four are by no means alike, when they deduce and argue... give some credit to Yukikos genes... he does some good acting with them

After all there is no way I know of that Vermouth knew that Jodie knew that Dr Araide was her. So It not likely that Vermouth could have done as she said and dismissed all the FBI that Jodie would use to trap her, and as Jodie still has her cell, any such orders could be checked and found to be false.

Actually, since Vermouth noticed the intrusion and bugging of her, i.e. Ariade's, chambers the inference that the FBI knows her to disguise as Araide isn't a difficult one.
I do agree that it was too easy for Vermouth to dismiss the other agents. Only explanation is that they didn't expect Vermouth to be one step ahead, meaning that Vermouth wouldn't know who Jodie works for and that a trap has been installed.

I got a funny feeling that unknown forces cleaned up the events, and told the local police only what they need to know.

I also had that thought, but I was less concerned with the FBI getting away unscolded, but with Calvados getting shot. I doubt that Akai would miss a weapon. Although the FBI getting of the hook so easily is another interesting question...

Again Vermouth might have watched the FBI practice a trap, but would she know the day they would spring it? Even if she knew the day she try her trick, and when it would happen, at the moment there is no evidence that the FBI also knew the date and thus the trap could only be set up in the amount of time that Jodie took to get to the trap place, it could not have been hours earlier.

Well... Vermouth could assume that they have to catch her redhanded, i.e. when she kidnaps Haibara. Otherwise they couldn't do anything against her. And Vermouth, of course, knew when that was going to happen.
Question remains, like I stated in my previous post, how the FBI knew of the party (invitations). A bug is one way to explain, but there are enough others and as far as I know, none is shown and proven.

As to your next point, in the start of the KIR case should prove that Jodie when she saw what Conan was doing, almost instantly changed her plan of the day and followed.

Actually, her plans were to spy on Kir, but she lost faith in that lead until she saw Conan's terrified expression on his way back. That she switched back to following her at that point is hardly evidence for her knowing Conan's true identity as she knows Conan to have some connection to the BO, which would reinstate her faith in her initial assumption of Kir.

No Akai as Okiya does not fit for me, it seem too easy and I like to think writers would hide returning characters better then that. But Scar on the other hand seem just right to be Akai.

Sorry for the following sarcasm: yeah... running into the BO shooting sight looking like Akai is way more secretive... 

I surely hope you are right that Okiya isn't Akai. I don't like your idea of him being basically a nobody in the whole plot either, but the whole "Mobile Suit Gundam" name equivalency frankly annoys the crap out of me. If Gosho doesn't use this to lead us on for at least one of the 3 (Okiya, Sera, Amuro) I will be really pissed.
I mean, next thing we know Bourbon and Sera were a couple and that is the reason why Akai and Bourbon hate each other. Furthermore Bourbon and Sera can telepathically communicate. 
Nevertheless Chekhovs argumentation on the whole matter is pretty solid. But since we can't see eye to eye on that matter I withdraw Conan's secrecy around Okiya as evidence for FBI-related discussions.

If Vermouth's Bug was wireless then anyone knowing where to listen, could hear what was going on. Again it seem too easy for Jodie to just be close enough to get Haibara before Vermouth arrived. It could be she was lying in wait and listening to what Vermouth was listening to.

First of all... if we start constructing possibilities I say that the bug's information were encoded... but to be a bit constructive: they didn't (necessarily) know Vermouth bugged the place, since they entered Araide's rooms before the 4-Porsche-case and that was the time where Vermouth bugged Agasa's place. And since Vermouth used headphones to listen to her bugs, the FBI wouldn't hear it.
To the second point: I forgot that the FBI stopping Araide in disguise on his way to Haibara wasn't canon. Leads me a bit off-topic: how strongly is Gosho involved in the animation process. It sure looked like an elegant way to explain the situation.

But I will say this that is not my final word on the matter.

I wouldn't have expected it any other way 


And to remind you of what I am actually arguing, because I fear that might not have come across very well:
I don't say Akai and Jodie don't assume, suspect or in their own opinion know, that Conan=Shinichi... my point is, they have no evidence to support whatever level of suspicion they have, let alone a confirmation by our meitantei himself...

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Again read or watch that case, and special note how Jodie questions about Haibara and Conan. Also while Chekhov might believe that the Pictures in Jodie's Bathroom were from Vermouth, I disagree.

There is no question that the pictures of Ran and Conan were photographs of Vermouth's pictures. Those uneven borders prove it.

Spoiler:

The rest of Jodie's pictures were originals. The ones taken by her are Shinichi, Teitan, and Araide at the school play in Desperate Revival. She may have taken the one of Mouri Detective Agency too, but Akai or another FBI agent might have as well because they staked it out.

After all there is no way I know of that Vermouth knew that Jodie knew that Dr Araide was her.

Divin explained it. Vermouth knew from the very beginning when Jodie raided Araide's office early on to take photos that she was compromised. (42-9 pg 11) Vermouth admits to leaving the picture of Sherry up for the FBI to find. (42-9 pg 11) 

I also had that thought, but I was less concerned with the FBI getting away unscolded, but with Calvados getting shot. I doubt that Akai would miss a weapon.

Abs. and I had this discussion once.It boiled down the fact that Akai had virtually no time to search Calvados. Calavados was shooting at Ran moments before (you can tell by the handedness of the man holding the rifle). In the time it took Vermouth to yell at Ran to let go of Ai, Akai disabled Calvados and disarmed him as best he could then rushed to get to Jodie. I would assume it's easy to miss something when rushing like that.

Again Vermouth might have watched the FBI practice a trap, but would she know the day they would spring it? Even if she knew the day she try her trick, and when it would happen, at the moment there is no evidence that the FBI also knew the date and thus the trap could only be set up in the amount of time that Jodie took to get to the trap place, it could not have been hours earlier. But I will say this that is not my final word on the matter.

Vermouth knew when the FBI would spring the trap because Vermouth herself was in control of the timing. Vermouth knew that the FBI expected her to take a pass at Haibara sometime. Remember, Vermouth's office was bugged, and Vermouth knew the office was bugged, yet she happily announced out loud she was coming for Haibara. (41-9) That was Vermouth intentionally pushing the FBI into coming up with a plan.
Vermouth had already identified the FBI agents, their addresses, and such by stealing the records of Kogoro, and observing the FBI who then staked out the agency (42-9 pg11), so Vermouth already knew where to look for them whenever they made their moves. All Vermouth had to do was send the party invitation letter to Conan, which the FBI heard about via the bugs at Agasa's, and then Vermouth would know the FBI would generally make the plan for tomorrow night (the night of the party) anticipating Vermouth would try to act during the party. Additionally, Vermouth anticipated that Jodie would try to get to Haibara first and then try to lure Vermouth into following her. All Vermouth had to do was follow some of the agents she identified before to find the location Jodie was going to lead Vermouth to later - the docks.
Vermouth then called as Araide during the party as Jodie expected, so then Jodie intercepted "Haibara". Vermouth played ignorant and followed.
I am surprised that Jodie didn't check in with her team right before intercepting "Haibara"; however, this is the same Jodie though that gave James a pot of flowers from the Black Org without finding the ticking bomb in it. She seems to have this pattern of being fairly competent most of the time, then messing up on stupid things because she wasn't careful enough.

[sstimson]

Ok may talk talk about this later but as this topic is basically what does the FBI know. I will take one of your phases and ask you if that does prove my claim - Akai and Jodie because of the BUG know the truth?

All Vermouth had to do was send the party invitation letter to Conan, which the FBI heard about via the bugs at Agasa's

Because if that is truth (And I think it is), then they heard Conan statement about Vermouth knowing Conan is Shinichi and Haibara being Sherry.

Is that correct and so my point is proven?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Because if that is truth (And I think it is), then they heard Conan statement about Vermouth knowing Conan is Shinichi and Haibara being Sherry.

Is that correct and so my point is proven?

Jodie definitely has all the clues and if she was listening to that bug, would have heard the truth for sure. Despite that, she still calls him "Cool Kid" and minds him like a child. She explains basic concepts like NOC to him, is extremely surprised that Conan came up with a plan to return Rena despite his impressive record, and says things like "Call to us in a loud voice and we will come rescue you." Jodie doesn't strike me as a particularly strong actor, so either she just treats Conan like a kid through habit, or somehow despite all evidence, hasn't put it together yet because she hasn't thought critically about it. She should know Conan is Shinichi, and maybe she does. The only thing troubling is that Akai has been shown to be the one listening to the tap, not Jodie, so I wonder if the conversation at Agasa's was filtered though him.

[Divin]

All Vermouth had to do was send the party invitation letter to Conan, which the FBI heard about via the bugs at Agasa's

Because if that is truth (And I think it is), then they heard Conan statement about Vermouth knowing Conan is Shinichi and Haibara being Sherry.

Is that correct and so my point is proven?

It is a possible scenario. All we know for sure is: there was a bug in Araide's place, Araide's phone was tapped and there was a bug in Agasa's place WHILE Jodie was there. Everything else is speculation on our part.

Jodie definitely has all the clues and if she was listening to that bug, would have heard the truth for sure. Despite that, she still calls him "Cool Kid" and minds him like a child. She explains basic concepts like NOC to him, is extremely surprised that Conan came up with a plan to return Rena despite his impressive record, and says things like "Call to us in a loud voice and we will come rescue you." Jodie doesn't strike me as a particularly strong actor, so either she just treats Conan like a kid through habit, or somehow despite all evidence, hasn't put it together yet because she hasn't thought critically about it. She should know Conan is Shinichi, and maybe she does. The only thing troubling is that Akai has been shown to be the one listening to the tap, not Jodie, so I wonder if the conversation at Agasa's was filtered though him.

Exactly because of this behaviour I doubt that there was a bug. But there is no evidence in the Manga for my view or yours (sstimson). But if we wanna list some possibilities (none of them backed up as these are all just theories):

• Agasa's place was bugged and this is how they learned about the party. Akai and Jodie know accordingly the truth.
• Agasa's place was bugged, but Akai was the one listening and told the rest of the FBI only as much as he wanted them to know. Akai knows.
• Place wasn't bugged. They learned about the party another way and ...

• [li]... Neither one knows.
• ... Akai found out, but has no proof. (Or Conan admitted it on the rooftop of the hospital)
• ... Both suspect it, but have no proof.

At least regarding Jodie I am fairly certain that she is ignorant to the fact. Ignorant in the sense of 'not knowing' and the sense of 'how can you not see it?!'. Her attitude towards Conan just doesn't fit.

[sstimson]

All Vermouth had to do was send the party invitation letter to Conan, which the FBI heard about via the bugs at Agasa's

Because if that is truth (And I think it is), then they heard Conan statement about Vermouth knowing Conan is Shinichi and Haibara being Sherry.

Is that correct and so my point is proven?

It is a possible scenario. All we know for sure is: there was a bug in Araide's place, Araide's phone was tapped and there was a bug in Agasa's place WHILE Jodie was there. Everything else is speculation on our part.

Jodie definitely has all the clues and if she was listening to that bug, would have heard the truth for sure. Despite that, she still calls him "Cool Kid" and minds him like a child. She explains basic concepts like NOC to him, is extremely surprised that Conan came up with a plan to return Rena despite his impressive record, and says things like "Call to us in a loud voice and we will come rescue you." Jodie doesn't strike me as a particularly strong actor, so either she just treats Conan like a kid through habit, or somehow despite all evidence, hasn't put it together yet because she hasn't thought critically about it. She should know Conan is Shinichi, and maybe she does. The only thing troubling is that Akai has been shown to be the one listening to the tap, not Jodie, so I wonder if the conversation at Agasa's was filtered though him.

Exactly because of this behaviour I doubt that there was a bug. But there is no evidence in the Manga for my view or yours (sstimson). But if we wanna list some possibilities (none of them backed up as these are all just theories):

• Agasa's place was bugged and this is how they learned about the party. Akai and Jodie know accordingly the truth.
• Agasa's place was bugged, but Akai was the one listening and told the rest of the FBI only as much as he wanted them to know. Akai knows.
• Place wasn't bugged. They learned about the party another way and ...

• [li]... Neither one knows.
• ... Akai found out, but has no proof. (Or Conan admitted it on the rooftop of the hospital)
• ... Both suspect it, but have no proof.

At least regarding Jodie I am fairly certain that she is ignorant to the fact. Ignorant in the sense of 'not knowing' and the sense of 'how can you not see it?!'. Her attitude towards Conan just doesn't fit.

Part One: If you are right, then you need to answer this question. How did Jodie know when to head for Asaga to get haibara? A bug makes that question easy to answer. And I will be glad to poke hole in that not

Part Two: Asaga Place was bugged at least at one time. It is clear both Vermouth and Akai were listening to events inside.
So #3 Place wasn't bugged. They learned about the party another way and ... is out
More suggestions for Jodie

Sharon being Chris being Vermouth and yet still young. Jodie knows that an anti-aging agent is possible as Sharon-Vermouth is the proof.
And remember her questioned (IMO for confirmation) about Haibara being Sherry, and Cool Guy being Cool Kid. REmember she seen both in action. She saw CONAN in action in the BusJack case.

I Wonder if Jodie might be acting that way to help protect Conan secret. The question becomes, does she act different when no one is around or when just the FBI is around vs when the general public is around or Conan's friends, Ran, the DB, Etc.

[Divin]

Part One: If you are right, then you need to answer this question. How did Jodie know when to head for Asaga to get haibara? A bug makes that question easy to answer. And I will be glad to poke hole in that not

That's easy enough. Araide's phones was tapped, thus she could listen to the conversation between fake-Araide and fake-Ai before he went to get her.

Part Two: Asaga Place was bugged at least at one time. It is clear both Vermouth and Akai were listening to events inside.
So #3 Place wasn't bugged. They learned about the party another way and ... is out

Sorry for the unlucky phrasing: place wasn't bugged by the FBI. The bug you mentioned was on Jodie, not planted in the house.

Sharon being Chris being Vermouth and yet still young. Jodie knows that an anti-aging agent is possible as Sharon-Vermouth is the proof.

Anti-aging and shrinking are two fundamentally different processes. And since Vermouth is a master of disguise she can't infer a de-aging process.

[Partsu]

how did FBI know the timing?
Phone call "Araide" made to "Haibara" about "getting to better doctor."
->FBI doesn't know (except maybe Akai as Okiya)

but I Believe that at least Akai and Jodie knows...
but Jodie can't help but to think and act like Conan is child...because he looks like one...
and even though she knows he's Shinichi it would be plausible that she doesn't think he knows EVERYTHING and thus explains them...

[sstimson]

how did FBI know the timing?
Phone call "Araide" made to "Haibara" about "getting to better doctor."
->FBI doesn't know (except maybe Akai as Okiya)

but I Believe that at least Akai and Jodie knows...
but Jodie can't help but to think and act like Conan is child...because he looks like one...
and even though she knows he's Shinichi it would be plausible that she doesn't think he knows EVERYTHING and thus explains them...

You are funny. Okiya was not in town yet. Whether or not Jodie or Akai told the other about the pickup, is a matter for debate. As I believe that Akai followed Jodie, I am of the opinion that Jodie listen and knew that Vermouth was on her way, and so moved then and there to get the prize.

And while so far have not found what I need (Yet), I think Jodie might treat Conan different when they are alone. Jodie, knowing the importance of Shinichi's secret, might treat Conan like a kid when others are around, And I think you might be able to see plenty of evidence that Jodie is a very good actress as she before the meeting with Vermouth was acting other the top when with others. When Heiji and Conan paid her a visit, I got the feeling, that they could see through her act.

[Partsu]

I meant that Okiya as Okiya has most likely figured out Conan=Shinichi.
he has all the clues and only thing he needs is believe that ppl can shrink...

[sstimson]

And if Okiya is who i think it is, then he knew from the beginning, even before he met Conan.

[D.]

And if Okiya is who i think it is, then he knew from the beginning, even before he met Conan.

And who do you think okiya is?

[sstimson]

Clues: Living in Shinichi House,
          His parents like to know what happening in his life and want to make sure he is safe.
          Okiya seem to be a good guy.
          Seem quite friendly with Asaga who know Shinichi's Parents
          While a Good guy, does not seem to be FBI

I see Okiya as (please do not laugh) A friend of Shinichi's Father who reports back to his parents and keeps an eye on Shinichi to be there if Shinichi needs help (Shinichi likes to do things without thinking). He likely heard some it not the whole story from Shinichi's Dad. There is also a possiblity he might be with Interpol as Shinichi Dad is a world traveler.

I find it funny that Shinichi parents like to keep an eye on him without him knowing, and as it is their house can come and go as they please. I think it highly likely they paid Shinichi a secret visit (between the pages) and likely stop to check on their house, yet Okiya is still there, and that would be unlikely unless Shinichi Parents knew the person there.

[D.]

And does this friend know about the BO? He did refer to them as wolves.
And why did he start living in an apartment and wait for it to go on fire because of someone else's doing and make the detective boys along with conan go to that boy's apartment with some incredible power?