Discussion of character trends in DC storytelling

GinRei · Post by **GinRei** » October 30th, 2011, 8:26 pm

sstimson wrote: Maybe as I did elsewhere, I need to point something one to you. But first none of the the BO have been shown to kill anyone. They got someone else to kill the ghost captain. They left a bomb that Conan kick away. They killed Pisco off screen. Conan foiled a murder attempt by using sprinkers, and a soccer / football.

Don't pull that crap. We've very well been shown that most of the members have murdered others. Just because it doesn't literally show them pulling the trigger on-screen doesn't mean we don't know it happened. However, there's been nothing yet to imply that Bourbon has killed anyone. There's such a thing as an "Intelligence Division", which just gathers information. All Kir told Jodie about him is that he's skilled at information gathering, inspection, and has keen insight. All Gin told us is that he's secretive, hates Akai, and thinks he's the only one who can kill him. That doesn't necessarily mean he's killed before, just that he thinks himself above everyone else.

Next look at Gosho presentation of news characters.

I can't even pretend to take you seriously. You're talking about characters introduced in the first chapter as "new characters", and comparing them to a character introduced in chapter 793. This is utterly ridiculous.

My point is at the beginning with maybe Conan's Dad being the exception, you can tell the good from the bad. Look at how they are drawn, Conan's action with then, the number of lines and how they act. That waiter acts good, so bourbon (if he exist) he is not.

Akai acted like a villain. Jodie acted like she could be Vermouth. Araide acted like a good guy, even when it was Vermouth disguised. First impressions aren't as they appear. Isn't that what your prior argument was, about red herrings and all? Yet now you're championing an argument that uses first impressions and red herrings as a basis of proof.

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » October 31st, 2011, 7:02 am

you are missing the point.It is not how the characters appear or act later, you get most of the clues when they FIRST appear and interact with Conan the first case their in.

Spoiler:

Started out looking bad (touch Sokono) but was actually helping her and stood her ground in her fight with Ran.(chapter 768 page 4) At the end of the chapter we get a hint about her. And the next chapter tell us more about her.At the end of the case, she is pictured as a class mate of Ran. Note she is given a lot of lines and it is clear she is very smart But most BO member look a little evil and do in no way look nice. It is clear from this first case she is good.

Tequila -evil looking, Six lines. Nasty personality and of course a one shot. Very different from the nice good ones (Chapter 114 page 12)

Sabura - Haibara feel the pressure and you think one of the three must be BO but then it leaves, That should mean since the three are still there, that NONE of those three are BO. The BO is in the background and unseen. That is our first hint about him (Chapter 622 Page 12) . He is finally talking to the Police (Chapter 623 Page 7). He sounds like what he claims. He is a student at an university. And he is kinda drawn neutral, not really looking evil or good, kinda of in between. Him talking about his color also shows neutral. But He is not cold hearted. After all, he watered the flowers, and he feel better when he see green like trees in the mountains. I get the feeling he is a loner and like things to be quiet. These hints goes even more towards him not being bad. When he starts talking about Holmes ( Chapter 623 Page 13 ), he is smiling. That might suggest he is on the side of good as he would be more on the villains side if he were bad. More evidence comes up by how he learns about Asaga. Note he is quiet until he hears the word " Professor". If he was a BO guy want to spy on Haibara, he should have been more forward about getting a place near there. Also think like this. He should know where Kogorou Office is, as he is famous, so if he was bad, why is he staying there? Why not stay much nearer to either of his targets. I am sure the BO could make it very easy to setup where they want using heavy handed tricks if need be. That by it self is more proof that he is not BO. And since he is a student, it makes sense for him to be interested in helping one. By doing that, he gets a tutor of sorts.

Jodie (Chapter 270 Page 5). The first thing we learn watching her (not the comment before that) Is that she is good with a gun. But there is another a key clue there as well. She does not mind being in the spot light. Most of the people like that or maybe all turn out to be good. The look on her face while she is shooting is not an evil glee, it is more of a this is fun. I do not think the BO would be this open about how good they are at shooting. So another suggestion about her not being BO. More clue about her being good. She does have a good reason for wanting her day activity keep secret. And she is very out going. She gets quite a lot of lines and is very friendly. So far we got a whole lot of signs of her being good. Next chapter she how she reacts to the police, she is not hiding at all. Again she is even very out going with them. More evidence of being good. Also as part of the last chapter we also learn she is good at driving. At this point (Chapter 271 Page 15) we get a glimpse of her true character. She like Conan knows a lot. Suggesting she might be a detective. We get yet another major hint towards the end when Jodie talk to Sonoko about "A Female American Police Woman" which of course as we learn later is exactly what Jodie is.(Chapter 272 Page 17)

Araide (Chapter 234 Page 7) Again we got a person who does not look evil, has a out going personality and is nice. He is friendly and Kind. Later in the case he can see he cares about others like the way the helped the maid with her hurt arm. He looks like he might be a bad guy as he in a way at time fighting the police, but still he was straight with them and not hiding. And then we got Ran. Her reaction to him is interesting. She goes through all that just for a sweater for Shinichi.And when you add his grateful comments at the end, it becomes clear he is on the side of good.

Two for the price of one First the one shot Pisco. Old looking, a little like James Black and grated on the surface look maybe even nice, but these are still clues of his true character (Chapter 240 page 5). First at the start with the police he got only two lines. Later there is no question about him being a bad guy as he and Gin have a talk.

Next Vermouth (Page 240 Page 4) She has a bout her an evil beauty. She has only one line and that is through an interpreter. At the end of the case there is no question as she is in the car with Gin, We also learn she is a actress and just flew in. Clearly Bad

Still looking for the first Akai appears

caribou · Post by **caribou** » October 31st, 2011, 9:44 am

Partsu wrote: What if he is Bourbon BUT will end up as good guy?
maybe his parents brought him up in BO and he can't get out?
Who says Bourbon has to be total Bad guy?

maybe Amuro wants to be Detective and lives normal good guys life unless order comes from BO and he does what he must to stay alive?

Who's with me?

I'm kind of with you on this, I don't think the Good-Bad division has to be so black-and-white. We know that Bourbon 1) hates Akai, and 2) is a really really good detective. I think he might be a mercenary type, like he probably just joined the BO since they have the common goal of getting rid of Akai, but he can go back to his detective work after accomplishing that?

I don't think wanting to kill Akai necessarily makes Bourbon evil (and here the Akai fans will bury me alive). How much do we really know about Akai anyway? Sure he's working for the "good" side (though personally I'm still hoping for the twist

) but it doesn't mean he can't be flawed or he can't have done anything wrong.

sstimson wrote: you are missing the point.It is not how the characters appear or act later, you get most of the clues when they FIRST appear and interact with Conan the first case their in.

Spoiler:
Sera
Started out looking bad (touch Sokono) but was actually helping her and stood her ground in her fight with Ran.(chapter 768 page 4) At the end of the chapter we get a hint about her. And the next chapter tell us more about her.At the end of the case, she is pictured as a class mate of Ran. Note she is given a lot of lines and it is clear she is very smart But most BO member look a little evil and do in no way look nice. It is clear from this first case she is good.

Tequila -evil looking, Six lines. Nasty personality and of course a one shot. Very different from the nice good ones (Chapter 114 page 12)

Sabura - Haibara feel the pressure and you think one of the three must be BO but then it leaves, That should mean since the three are still there, that NONE of those three are BO. The BO is in the background and unseen. That is our first hint about him (Chapter 622 Page 12) . He is finally talking to the Police (Chapter 623 Page 7). He sounds like what he claims. He is a student at an university. And he is kinda drawn neutral, not really looking evil or good, kinda of in between. Him talking about his color also shows neutral. But He is not cold hearted. After all, he watered the flowers, and he feel better when he see green like trees in the mountains. I get the feeling he is a loner and like things to be quiet. These hints goes even more towards him not being bad. When he starts talking about Holmes ( Chapter 623 Page 13 ), he is smiling. That might suggest he is on the side of good as he would be more on the villains side if he were bad. More evidence comes up by how he learns about Asaga. Note he is quiet until he hears the word " Professor". If he was a BO guy want to spy on Haibara, he should have been more forward about getting a place near there. Also think like this. He should know where Kogorou Office is, as he is famous, so if he was bad, why is he staying there? Why not stay much nearer to either of his targets. I am sure the BO could make it very easy to setup where they want using heavy handed tricks if need be. That by it self is more proof that he is not BO. And since he is a student, it makes sense for him to be interested in helping one. By doing that, he gets a tutor of sorts.

Jodie (Chapter 270 Page 5). The first thing we learn watching her (not the comment before that) Is that she is good with a gun. But there is another a key clue there as well. She does not mind being in the spot light. Most of the people like that or maybe all turn out to be good. The look on her face while she is shooting is not an evil glee, it is more of a this is fun. I do not think the BO would be this open about how good they are at shooting. So another suggestion about her not being BO. More clue about her being good. She does have a good reason for wanting her day activity keep secret. And she is very out going. She gets quite a lot of lines and is very friendly. So far we got a whole lot of signs of her being good. Next chapter she how she reacts to the police, she is not hiding at all. Again she is even very out going with them. More evidence of being good. Also as part of the last chapter we also learn she is good at driving. At this point (Chapter 271 Page 15) we get a glimpse of her true character. She like Conan knows a lot. Suggesting she might be a detective. We get yet another major hint towards the end when Jodie talk to Sonoko about "A Female American Police Woman" which of course as we learn later is exactly what Jodie is.(Chapter 272 Page 17)

Araide (Chapter 234 Page 7) Again we got a person who does not look evil, has a out going personality and is nice. He is friendly and Kind. Later in the case he can see he cares about others like the way the helped the maid with her hurt arm. He looks like he might be a bad guy as he in a way at time fighting the police, but still he was straight with them and not hiding. And then we got Ran. Her reaction to him is interesting. She goes through all that just for a sweater for Shinichi.And when you add his grateful comments at the end, it becomes clear he is on the side of good.

Two for the price of one First the one shot Pisco. Old looking, a little like James Black and grated on the surface look maybe even nice, but these are still clues of his true character (Chapter 240 page 5). First at the start with the police he got only two lines. Later there is no question about him being a bad guy as he and Gin have a talk.

Next Vermouth (Page 240 Page 4) She has a bout her an evil beauty. She has only one line and that is through an interpreter. At the end of the case there is no question as she is in the car with Gin, We also learn she is a actress and just flew in. Clearly Bad

Still looking for the first Akai appears

they are interesting observations but I don't think you can really generalise just based on that... like what I said above, I don't think the good-evil division has to be so clear-cut. Of course there are people who are way at the extreme end of Bad, the evil-looking people who are, in fact, evil. but those are one-dimensional. Why can't there be a character who works for the BO but is 'good' in every other way? He could be friendly, likes kids, rescues animals from trees, etc etc. But he just has to assassinate a big politician every now and then. it's just all in a day's work.

doublemoonlight · Post by **doublemoonlight** » October 31st, 2011, 3:28 pm

sstimson wrote: you are missing the point.It is not how the characters appear or act later, you get most of the clues when they FIRST appear and interact with Conan the first case their in.

Spoiler:
Sera
Started out looking bad (touch Sokono) but was actually helping her and stood her ground in her fight with Ran.(chapter 768 page 4) At the end of the chapter we get a hint about her. And the next chapter tell us more about her.At the end of the case, she is pictured as a class mate of Ran. Note she is given a lot of lines and it is clear she is very smart But most BO member look a little evil and do in no way look nice. It is clear from this first case she is good.

Tequila -evil looking, Six lines. Nasty personality and of course a one shot. Very different from the nice good ones (Chapter 114 page 12)

Sabura - Haibara feel the pressure and you think one of the three must be BO but then it leaves, That should mean since the three are still there, that NONE of those three are BO. The BO is in the background and unseen. That is our first hint about him (Chapter 622 Page 12) . He is finally talking to the Police (Chapter 623 Page 7). He sounds like what he claims. He is a student at an university. And he is kinda drawn neutral, not really looking evil or good, kinda of in between. Him talking about his color also shows neutral. But He is not cold hearted. After all, he watered the flowers, and he feel better when he see green like trees in the mountains. I get the feeling he is a loner and like things to be quiet. These hints goes even more towards him not being bad. When he starts talking about Holmes ( Chapter 623 Page 13 ), he is smiling. That might suggest he is on the side of good as he would be more on the villains side if he were bad. More evidence comes up by how he learns about Asaga. Note he is quiet until he hears the word " Professor". If he was a BO guy want to spy on Haibara, he should have been more forward about getting a place near there. Also think like this. He should know where Kogorou Office is, as he is famous, so if he was bad, why is he staying there? Why not stay much nearer to either of his targets. I am sure the BO could make it very easy to setup where they want using heavy handed tricks if need be. That by it self is more proof that he is not BO. And since he is a student, it makes sense for him to be interested in helping one. By doing that, he gets a tutor of sorts.

Jodie (Chapter 270 Page 5). The first thing we learn watching her (not the comment before that) Is that she is good with a gun. But there is another a key clue there as well. She does not mind being in the spot light. Most of the people like that or maybe all turn out to be good. The look on her face while she is shooting is not an evil glee, it is more of a this is fun. I do not think the BO would be this open about how good they are at shooting. So another suggestion about her not being BO. More clue about her being good. She does have a good reason for wanting her day activity keep secret. And she is very out going. She gets quite a lot of lines and is very friendly. So far we got a whole lot of signs of her being good. Next chapter she how she reacts to the police, she is not hiding at all. Again she is even very out going with them. More evidence of being good. Also as part of the last chapter we also learn she is good at driving. At this point (Chapter 271 Page 15) we get a glimpse of her true character. She like Conan knows a lot. Suggesting she might be a detective. We get yet another major hint towards the end when Jodie talk to Sonoko about "A Female American Police Woman" which of course as we learn later is exactly what Jodie is.(Chapter 272 Page 17)

Araide (Chapter 234 Page 7) Again we got a person who does not look evil, has a out going personality and is nice. He is friendly and Kind. Later in the case he can see he cares about others like the way the helped the maid with her hurt arm. He looks like he might be a bad guy as he in a way at time fighting the police, but still he was straight with them and not hiding. And then we got Ran. Her reaction to him is interesting. She goes through all that just for a sweater for Shinichi.And when you add his grateful comments at the end, it becomes clear he is on the side of good.

Two for the price of one First the one shot Pisco. Old looking, a little like James Black and grated on the surface look maybe even nice, but these are still clues of his true character (Chapter 240 page 5). First at the start with the police he got only two lines. Later there is no question about him being a bad guy as he and Gin have a talk.

Next Vermouth (Page 240 Page 4) She has a bout her an evil beauty. She has only one line and that is through an interpreter. At the end of the case there is no question as she is in the car with Gin, We also learn she is a actress and just flew in. Clearly Bad

Still looking for the first Akai appears

who said anything about how they turn out later we were talking about their first apperence in chapter/Episode. Akai: He was seen suspsious figure in his first apperence and he was one of suspects that were said to be in line with hijeckers, Jodie had plenty of 'hints' suggesting that she was vermouth in the way she says 'cool kid' and the fact that her fav drink is sherry. As for doctor Araide there was no hint in his first apperence that he had anything to do with BO or indeed plot at all. I agree that there are some spot on evil charecters like Gin and Tagelia but there are some charecters that are " more then meets the eye." Plus you can't tell me from just on Kir's first apperence you can tell she was CIA agent who was undercover do you?

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » November 1st, 2011, 9:42 am

I want to make this point. EVERY TRUE MEMBER OF THE BO, WE KNEW THE SAME CASE THEY ENTER THE STORY, THAT THEY WERE BO. That also includes the one shot members and member that were alive when they entered the story. Also I do know for a time Akai was a member, but as he as an FBI, and not a true member he does not count.
Also to the MODS, if this is the wrong place for this, feel free to move it where it needs to go.

GIN and VODKA - First shown Chapter 1 Page 15. BO revealed Chapter 1 Page 34

VERMOUTH - First shown Chapter 239 Page 10. BO revealed Chapter 242 Page 17

SHERRY - First shown Chapter 173 Page 3. BO revealed Chapter 178 Page 9

CHIANTI and KORN - First Shown 500 Page 9(Chianti), Chapter 500 Page 10(Korn). Bo revealed same page as first shown

KIR - First shown Chapter 499 Page 4. BO revealed Chapter 500 Page 2

ONE SHOTS

TEQUILA - First shown Chapter 114 Page 12. BO revealed Chapter 114 Page 14

PISCO - First shown Chapter 239 Page 10. BO revealed ( This time it is a little more imvolved Chapter 238 Page 15 Gin is talking to Pisco and on Chapter 242 Page 10 Is revealed who is Pisco.

CALVADOS - First mentioned Chapter 425 Page 18. First seen Chapter 433 Page 10. Bo revealed same as shown and mentioned.

AKEMI MIYANO - (First I still doubt she was active BO) - First seen Chapter 13 Page 4. BO Revealed Chapter 16 Page 11.

RIKUMICHI KUSADA - First point they are looking for a BO member. This can be seen at Chapter 596 Page 8. They soon find out who it is First seen Chapter 596 Page 14 (Photo), Person himself Chapter 597 Page 13. Bo revealed looking for Bo so known for sure at Chapter 598 Page 7.

Special Note about the others

Atsushi Miyano and Elena Miyano Are dead. We learn early that they worked on the Drug, So it is obvious that they are BO at the start.

RYE - Akai -Is an FBI Mole and and a real BO member. He was in the BO but as a spy against the BO.

Ki'ichiro Numabuchi - is another person who might work for the BO without really being BO. That is why as I see it he does not really count.

If I Missed anyone please let me know. By doing this I am trying to show that unless Gosho changed the way he does things, then as In the same case none of the new three were shown to be BO, then they are not BO.

As for Bourbon, most all really know how I stand of their non existence. Yes CALVADOS, was also mentioned and later shown (kinda of) , but he was a one shot, and was shown within nine chapter after being mentioned. Also he was mentioned by Vermouth, a real BO member, not a known spy against the BO, and who I still is believe is being used to feed Misinformation to the FBI and CIA.

Wakarimashita · Post by **Wakarimashita** » November 1st, 2011, 9:45 am

You finally have a good point there. However, just because it has been that way since the beginning does't imply that the pattern will automatically remain the same until the end.

Chekhov MacGuffin · November 1st, 2011, 12:20 pm

Wakarimashita wrote: You finally have a good point there. However, just because it has been that way since the beginning doesn't imply that the pattern will automatically remain the same until the end.

Exactly, this pattern is the kind that will be broken in the case of the right kind of disguise or motive/"who's side are you" on mystery. Consider the following pattern where plot related characters' allegiances are only revealed after a space of time after their introduction. (Exact page numbers unavailable because of my current location)

!Araide starts with presumed good identity - first mentioned when switched to drama club in 251.4 - revealed bad in 432
Jodie starts with unknown allegiance hinted bad - first appearance in 270 - revealed good in 432
Akai starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 325 - revealed good in 434
James Black starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 325 - revealed good by proxy because of Akai in 434
Kir starts with enemy allegiance - first appearance in 499 or 500 - revealed good in 603/604 ish (unable to check precisely)
Eisuke starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 508 - revealed good for sure in 603/604 ish (unable to check precisely)
Camel starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 599 - revealed good in 603 (This is something of an outlier as it is the shortest identity mystery so far by a lot)

Okiya starts with unknown allegiance hinted bad by Haibara's sense- first appearance in 622
Scar Akai starts with presumed good (because of the assumption he is the real Akai according to manga sidebars) or unknown allegiance - first appearance in 677
Sera starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 768
Amuro starts with unknown allegiance hinted good for now- first appearance in 793

We may not have to wait long on Amuro's reveal if 800 is the beginning of the end of the Bourbon arc.

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » November 1st, 2011, 5:48 pm

You post might be misleading, which is why I am replying

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Wakarimashita wrote: You finally have a good point there. However, just because it has been that way since the beginning doesn't imply that the pattern will automatically remain the same until the end.
Exactly, this pattern is the kind that will be broken in the case of the right kind of disguise or motive/"who's side are you" on mystery. Consider the following pattern where plot related characters' allegiances are only revealed after a space of time after their introduction. (Exact page numbers unavailable because of my current location)

!Araide starts with presumed good identity - first mentioned when switched to drama club in 251.4 - revealed bad in 432

Correction: First appearance in Manga is (Chapter 234 Page 7). He is not reveal bad. In Chapter 433 Page 5 It is revealed that for an unknown amount of time,he has been with the FBI. Vermouth acting as him during this time is the Bad one not him.

Jodie starts with unknown allegiance hinted bad - first appearance in 270 - revealed good in 432

Here I must disagree. We have only had two possible members of the BO that were open and friendly Akemi, and Kir. The BO as I showed earlier does not fit this mold. They are mostly Evil looking, and closed. As I said earlier, Jodie appearance at the start is clearly open and friendly, even with the Police (Chapter 273 Page 3). Please Compare that with how Gin is with the Police (Chapter 1; Page 21, 22, 24, and 28 (Look hard at 28, you can clearly see they are trying to hide)

Akai starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 325 - revealed good in 434

First Picture 287 Page 11. Revealed to be FBI and good Chapter 380 Page 4

James Black starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 325- revealed good by proxy because of Akai in 434

Note James does indeed start in Chapter 325 Page 3. But at the End Chapter 327 Page 18 He becomes related with Akai so He would be also revealed to be good at the same page (Chapter 380 Page 4)

Kir starts with enemy allegiance - first appearance in 499 or 500 - revealed good in 603/604 ish (unable to check precisely)

First shown Chapter 499 Page 4.Good revealed The scene repeated completely (chapter 604 Page 6) was started for real in Chapter 599 Page 16 and Spelled at Chapter 604 Page 8.

That is all for now might fix the others later

Eisuke starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 508 - revealed good for sure in 603/604 ish (unable to check precisely)
Camel starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 599 - revealed good in 603 (This is something of an outlier as it is the shortest identity mystery so far by a lot)

Okiya starts with unknown allegiance hinted bad by Haibara's sense- first appearance in 622
Scar Akai starts with presumed good (because of the assumption he is the real Akai according to manga sidebars) or unknown allegiance - first appearance in 677
Sera starts with unknown allegiance - first appearance in 768
Amuro starts with unknown allegiance hinted good for now- first appearance in 793

We may not have to wait long on Amuro's reveal if 800 is the beginning of the end of the Bourbon arc.

doublemoonlight · Post by **doublemoonlight** » November 1st, 2011, 7:20 pm

Jodie did appear to be secretive and had hints that she might be veroumth in disguise as she said " cool Kid" and is also seen muttering Vermouth's key words " secret makes women women." Sure she was friendly and stuff to Ran and Sonoko during her time as English teacher, but there were hints that she might be BO. Plus Some BOs like Vermoumth who is well trained in acting is not likely to slip up her act just because there is a police. Please note that Vermouth as Ariade did not act suspicious under police in her first apperence as Aride.

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » November 1st, 2011, 10:19 pm

doublemoonlight wrote: Jodie did appear to be secretive and had hints that she might be veroumth in disguise as she said " cool Kid" and is also seen muttering Vermouth's key words " secret makes women women." Sure she was friendly and stuff to Ran and Sonoko during her time as English teacher, but there were hints that she might be BO. Plus Some BOs like Vermoumth who is well trained in acting is not likely to slip up her act just because there is a police. Please note that Vermouth as Ariade did not act suspicious under police in her first apperence as Aride.

If you think, there has never been a REAL Araide, you are wrong, the first one was the real one as was shown when Jodie questioned Vermouth about that case and showed than Vermouth was not there as she missed very important details in the case (Chapter 423 Page 11 and Chapter 423 Page 16) and Chapter 433 Page 5.

His next appearance, there are clues that the switch has been made. Remember he is a doctor and on site, could provide a medical opinion. But does he do that? Does he act like he did in the first case. No he stays in the shadows and only has two lines. (Chapter 256 Page 13) and (Chapter 257 Page 4). He as I see it does none of the openness in the first case. There are clues it you look for then, that Vermouth has taken his place. His behavior to me looks wrong in this case. Remember I was saying in their apperance you could most of the time tell the good from the bad.

Lets next look at a case with all three in it. Akai, Jodie, and the fake Araide. First clue is about the fake Araide as Haibara reacts to Vermouth as him. We should know then and there that the other two are a least a lesser evil then her, like Haibara says in this chapter (Chapter 287 Page 9) Note that in the next page, she is trying to keep this quiet. Then there is Jodie, who we will learn later know Araide at this point is a fake and is Vermouth. See how lively and out going she is. Again, one of my observations, is that most BO are closed, rude, and try to hide, Kinda of like what Vermouth is doing. But not Jodie, she want the whole world to know she is there, and that is not BO like.(Chapter 287 Page 11) We are first shown Akai. Remember if we are looking for the clues, they are there, and we should know that this character is less of a threat then Vermouth. Notice Jodie actions on Page 16 and 17. Would a bad person take such a chance to help others? Also remember Vermouth is play acting a doctor who in most cases would say something about the event like " you do not need to shot anybody", but she is silence. Also she is playing a man and yet role reversal it is the woman Jodie protecting the man. More clues about the true character of Jodie. However, she (Vermouth) seem to like Conan, which mean there is a good chance he she knows Conan is Shinichi. And when the Bad guys threaten to Kill him then she does step up in a big way (Chapter 288 Page 6) . Note how Jodie is carefree and nice. She tries to keep up Conan's spirit and tries to help Haibara who does things the way most BO does, try to hide. (Chapter 288 Pages 9 & 10). Again notice it is Jodie woh acts in Chapter 289 Page 10. Even towards the end of the case we get this. Jodie being out going and friendly. Vermouth finally acting like a doctor. And Yes for now Akai acting weird. Yet in the same case I saw something very interesting. Chapter 288 Page 15, and Page 16. More proof that Vermouth knows Conan is Shinichi and the look as Akai is heared toward the front that he give Jodie and the notebook. A very minor hint that he might not be so bad after all.

Maybe my review of those cases will show you more where to look for the clues to who is Good and Who is bad.

Partsu · Post by **Partsu** » November 2nd, 2011, 4:20 pm

I agree with some points in all those...
first: Chekhov you should address Araide and Vermouth-Araide differently
second:sstimson if your theory of the lines is hint how good/bad person is...what do you say about Amuro T. that was introduced here? he's good? I half-agree...He's Bourbon(Bad One) in my eyes but he'll be good in the end...

Chekhov MacGuffin · November 2nd, 2011, 5:02 pm

Partsu wrote: I agree with some points in all those...
first: Chekhov you should address Araide and Vermouth-Araide differently

I did distinguish them. The chapter I listed was the first time Vermouth-disguised-as-Araide was mentioned. Maybe people aren't familiar with the notation but !Araide means not-Araide. Using ! to mean not is a shorthand derived from programming.

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » November 2nd, 2011, 5:06 pm

Thanks, But I on the completely good for Amuro. No problem talking to police, lots of lines, looks good, nice though clueless character. I am think he might be an Eisuke type character. Who knows, maybe he looking for Sera.

@chekhov. I sorry about the confusion. The comment you replyed to from Partsu, I believe was for doublemoonlight.

@Partsu : I was trying to show above that the first Araide was the real one to doublemoonlight who seemed to believe that vermouth was his the whole time and the real Araide never existed. Repeating in short what I said. The Real Araide acted different then the fake Araide. The real one was more vocal and involved with the police, the fake one was in the shadows when the Police are around.

Partsu · Post by **Partsu** » November 2nd, 2011, 6:22 pm

o-kay...then I'm out of this topic until I can think of something to say...
except that I think Amuro is not Eisuke type...
he's more like Vermouth...with some Eisuke and some more Detectivenes added in...

Spoiler:

sstimson · Post by **sstimson** » November 2nd, 2011, 7:39 pm

After relooking at the case in question, I have this thought. It is a question of whether the Real Araide had already agreed to be part of the show. I think that vermouth would be very unlikely to appear on stage as I showed that when the police were around, she was staying in the shadows, therefore we can not known for sure if the Araide showned at Chapter 251 page 4 was the real one or vermouth. I am of the opinion that vermouth would want to stay in the shadows and only would have acted that way if the Real one had already agreed to do it. Again, the Real one has that kind of character. Vermouth has a character where no one really see her. She like most BO seem to hide. Again as I showed in my review of the case of the school play with Ran, there are signs that Vermouth has entered the stage and so the comment of looking good should only be attached to real one. I will give Chekhov this, If one looks, one can find the real story. All the pieces were there before the Halloween party. Akai Good, Vermouth acting as Araide, Jodie Good. There were all there.