Ok I need to rant now (plot related)

[sstimson]

You also get a yes, but

Agreed, but only after the book is read front to back. When the reader is reading for the first they should be kept in the dark. The clue and hints need to hidden so well that it takes a very careful reading to find them. And even then the writer might have hidden those clues so well, it might take several readings

And nothing againist Chek, but why do spoilers before the end? So many of the great critics I have read are comments by those who study the works for days if not years. I have read comments about Shakespeare's work that even today people are doing what Chek does - trying to find hidden meaning. There a task for Chek. Look over Gosho works and tell us what the writer is trying to say, the morals behind Detective Conan, the secret story behind DC, why Gosho wrote as he did. Those kind of comments should be right up their alley.

What Chek is currently doing is kinda of like going to a movie and being told right after the starting credits have rolled that the sled is rosebud. I have been told that part of reading a book or going to a movie is to allow yourself to let go and enjoy the ride. How many people would ride a rollercoster if if was flat? I find IMO that the more twists and turns a mystery story has, the better to me, at least, the story becomes. I then at the end, want to go back and see how the detective solved the case following the clues and if necessary finding the hidden clues. Theories are ok as long as they are treated as theories with a clear disclaimer stating these are possibilities not necessarily the way it will end.My problem enters when this is not done. When people become the writer. When their theories become the only way it could happen. Then I want to see their theories crushed. I want the writer to regain control of their work and tell those like that." I am writing this as I want, not as you want me to".
Twist and turns can if done right bring life to a story.

[sonoci]

When the reader is reading for the first they should be kept in the dark. The clue and hints need to hidden so well that it takes a very careful reading to find them. And even then the writer might have hidden those clues so well, it might take several readings

For the first sentence...it's hard to explain but you're both "right" and "wrong" (since there is no real way to be "right" in this situation) The way I see it, a reader does need to be in the dark, but they should very easily be able to see the light that - while not necessarily the end - will progress them further into the story. Most readers want some sort of idea of what's coming next so that they can be interested in what's to come or to see if they're right. If they guessed right that's one of the greatest feelings ever, and if they guessed wrong that's where the twists come in. A good twist should be one that COULD have been seen coming but wasn't. A bad twist is thrown in without the hints.

Regarding the clues...I pretty much already touched on that  :-\ Most people need to read several times to get the clues. Also, I'm pretty sure Chekhov doesn't just immediately see the clues: she probably looks for them too. I believe the minor "misconception" if you will is that it isn't realized just how hard and long Chekhov works at her theories. Her difference from other fans is that she actually does thorough deducing...kind of like Conan/Shinichi would.

Which leads to

And nothing againist Chek, but why do spoilers before the end? So many of the great critics I have read are comments by those who study the works for days if not years. I have read comments about Shakespeare's work that even today people are doing what Chek does - trying to find hidden meaning. There a task for Chek. Look over Gosho works and tell us what the writer is trying to say, the morals behind Detective Conan, the secret story behind DC, why Gosho wrote as he did. Those kind of comments should be right up their alley.

I'm interested in your word "spoilers" here. Since what Chekhov has speculated on has not actually happened (in the way of Okiya = Akai) how could her theories possibly be "spoilers"? They are EXTREMELY well thought out and backed up, but technically until it actually happens there's that millifraction smaller than a pin head that "Hey, she could be wrong."

For the Shakespeare thing...have you heard of "Over Analyzation"? There can be many truths to the theories people have put forth on Shakespeare, but without the ability to actually talk to him...Who knows? Maybe Shakespeare just wanted to write about a guy acting crazy to kill his uncle (Hamlet) or two love birds that got what came to them for being so reckless (Romeo and Juliet). A quote here "Sometimes the most whimsical things come from the unknown". In other words, maybe the "messages" wrote themselves into the story and Shakespeare didn't even have to concsciously think of them.

Also...how are we comparing Gosho to Shakespeare? o_o

What Chek is currently doing is kinda of like going to a movie and being told right after the starting credits have rolled that the sled is rosebud. I have been told that part of reading a book or going to a movie is to allow yourself to let go and enjoy the ride. How many people would ride a rollercoster if if was flat? I find IMO that the more twists and turns a mystery story has, the better to me, at least, the story becomes. I then at the end, want to go back and see how the detective solved the case following the clues and if necessary finding the hidden clues. Theories are ok as long as they are treated as theories with a clear disclaimer stating these are possibilities not necessarily the way it will end.My problem enters when this is not done. When people become the writer. When their theories become the only way it could happen. Then I want to see their theories crushed. I want the writer to regain control of their work and tell those like that." I am writing this as I want, not as you want me to".

Well that first part suggests Chek has an insider source, but I'll ignore that  :P

While it's true that "enjoying the ride" is a way to enjoy the book, some such as Chek enjoy to look into things further. And...naught for nothing, but I've seen you theorize a few times yourself  :-X As for the rollercoaster thing, think of this: while rollercoasters have twists and turns, you can see what you're getting into before ever getting into one of the cars. IMO stories are/should be the same way.

As for theories being "the only way it could happen"...that's not necessarily the theorists problem. If Gosho is writing in such a way that analyzers such as Chek can pick up his clues and predict what he's going to do they're not "making it the only way it could happen" they're saying "this is what I'm thinking is going to happen because". If you've noticed...Chek have very long posts. She hasn't just said "Okiya is Akai. This is the only way it can be" and left it at that. She's theorized, revised, editted, looked over pages twice, cited her evidence, linked things together...and much more. She's done her work and her "reward" is people's belief and possibly it happening in the comic herself. Basically, in the end, a "good job"

A question: how is Chek making Gosho write the story the way she wants him to? She doesn't know him as far as I know. No one is forcing Gosho to do anything (other than maybe his editors).

Twist and turns can if done right bring life to a story.

This I cannot argue with...however, provided the "if done right" part remains true.


To finish off, I hope this isn't taken as some sort of serious debate or anything. I'm just chatting here (mind you a long chat, but still a chat) I'm not all that indignant in what I'm saying here and I won't blow my top if you decide to ignore me. If something somehow sounded rude, I apologize  ;) And...HOW DID I WRITE SO MUCH? O-o

EDIT:

Wuh-oh, bit off topic here...or are we? ...It IS about the plot being predictable or not which is kind of what the first post was about but... 

[sstimson]

First I am not going to ignore you and I try not to sound rude either. These are after all opinions, not facts

Being both right and wrong.

Let us try this. The reader should be keep in the dark but able to see what could happen in a few chapter. They should not be able to jump to the end at say I need they were the killer at page 12 ( unless the book only has 15 pages ). The writer job is to keep the reader moving forward and the foresight is a way to do that.

Chek, clues, and spoilers

Chek in her writing seem to make it look like that is the only way it could happen. As it is the only game in town and any other ideas to the contrary are not as provable, therefore they must be wrong. When this kind of thing happens and if the writer (Gosho) reads or hears any of the rumors, they may feel they have written themselves in to a wall and their way may work for the writer but suddenly if they write the way they were planning, it has become unsound and they might be feel forced to take the story a way they normally would not. It is then the writer has lose control of their story and may find it hard to get their story back to track.

On the other hand, if the writer has finished their work, then things and clues that people like Chek state and find can not longer influence the story and their work they becomes important as Easter eggs to hunt for. There is nothing wrong with theories as long as they are part of a forest of many different ideas and not the only one stated. I give an example - How Akai might have survived. Chek currently seen to go with the metal under the hat trick, while my new theory goes move the gun to graze the cheek trick. But of course my new theory shows how Akai could be Scar Akai and not Okiya. It to me anyway would be interesting to see her explore more branches. Like for example do what she does, but also add other but conflicting views, Like Akai is Sera, Akai is Conan(crazy but just for example), Akai is Okiya, Akai is Scar Akai, or even as Gosho has said and wrote Akai is dead. That opens loop holes and prevent the writer from maybe writing themselves into a wall. This is being tried in the court of opinion and it be nice to see the other side as well presented. I wonder how many court case where justice was not done because one was which might have been true could not explain themselves as the other side and so was handicapped.

As for theories being "the only way it could happen"...that's not necessarily the theorists problem. If Gosho is writing in such a way that analyzers such as Chek can pick up his clues and predict what he's going to do they're not "making it the only way it could happen" they're saying "this is what I'm thinking is going to happen because". If you've noticed...Chek have very long posts. She hasn't just said "Okiya is Akai. This is the only way it can be" and left it at that. She's theorized, revised, editted, looked over pages twice, cited her evidence, linked things together...and much more. She's done her work and her "reward" is people's belief and possibly it happening in the comic herself. Basically, in the end, a "good job"

And I would agree if this was a done work and not a work in progress. That would be true if DC was completely written and there was not chance of influencing the story. I read about how two different anime have ending a normal reader would not wish for and wish it could of happened a different way, but they did not. They ended in a violent and horror way. And yes the clues were they that they might end that way. Names of two of them in spoilers. Read them at your own risk.

Spoiler:

School Days, and Satou Kashi no Dangan wa Uchinukenai

I have read about certain stories where the writers were not allowed to tell their stories by either publicist, or fans. My point is a writer must be able to tell their story in their way without being influenced to change their story because of a fan who writes what could happen so good and proven that the writer is forced to change it as not to look foolish. It is a bit of if that had not happened, how would the finished product be different.  I know as the cases are so short, that jumping from page 5 to page 50 in Conan is unavoidable. but it should be possible to avoid jumping from page 5 to page 500.

This topic is about Ranting. Note they be less ranting if Chek words were not so well written. I know I am not as good as her in proving my case and so my case of speculation is thought to be crazy, but basically because too much speculation about what might be happening off page. Yet it does add a tree to the forest.

I hope this explain your question  

A question: how is Chek making Gosho write the story the way she wants him to? She doesn't know him as far as I know. No one is forcing Gosho to do anything (other than maybe his editors).

[kkslider5552000]

please kindly get your...interesting...ideas out of my topic sstimson

[sonoci]

please kindly get your...interesting...ideas out of my topic sstimson

Ah D: Sorry slider OTL Had a feeling the discussion was going off :V

So, sstimson, I believe I'm going to leave this at differing opinions so as not to waste anymore posts in here (I also need to write an essay so ehehe)

[Sherry86]

Maybe Sera is Bourbon and Akai's sister. That's why Okiya following Ai when he see Sera around, that's why Scar Akai save Conan from bank robber and that's why Bourbon hate Akai so much.

Another rant :
If Okiya = Akai, it means even if Conan and Akai work together, they didn't believe each other, judging from their behavior.
The conclusion : win against BO is just a dream because organized badness would defeat unorganized goodness.

[Stopwatch]

Their behaviour? Do you mean stuff like the listening devices Okiya had planted to keep an eye on Conan? Or something else?

[Kleene Onigiri]

I don't think this rant is justifiable (yet) :V
Ranting about the story being slow? Of course!
Ranting about romance parts? Sure!

But for this arc, there wasn't a conclusion yet D: So why rant if you don't even know what REALLY happens yet? Gosho can still throw in other clues and hints and make some twists etc. Or he could troll us all and give us the conclusion in 2 years first (lol). THEN RANT! XD

I agree with Chek here, Gosho is trying to tell the plot differently, with more obvious clues so that more people can figure them out, even for the ones that just read it weekly and don't reread what happened before. Gosho also makes his normal cases in 3 difficulties. Easy, which are usually with the DBs involved. Then middle, usually with Kogoro. And then the harder ones, usually with Heiji or Kid or other characters, that don't appear too often. (Red Wall case).
And also, like Chek said, if you just want to be surprised, don't read theories.

Personally, I'd be disappointed too if Sera turns out to be Akai's Sister and there is nothing more behind it. But I doubt that will be the case. Sera isn't needed just as the Sister. If she'd be just the sister, without a bigger meaning to it, just looking for akai, she would be pointless. Eisuke was used, to show us that Kir is actually a spy and on the good side.
We know Akai is with the FBI already. We know he's not dead, since Scar Akai was shown (and other clues). Gosho doesn't need Sera to show us this again. And he also doesn't need Sera to show us how's the real akai either, since Conan should know or he could simply use Jodie/FBI for that. Or even Kir.

The clues for Sera being Akai's sister are also quite obvious. So obvious, that there just need to be something else behind it.
It's like the cases where it's obvious who the murderer is. But the hard part would be, how did he kill his victim etc.
I think it's similar here. Everyone can easily figure out that she's his sister, but why is she here?
Gosho could also use that "Sera=Akais Sister" clues to mislead people from other clues. To make people think: "That's boring~" and then surprise everyone

Sera is also still quite a new character. Especially when you compare the time she's in the manga now, and how long Gosho is usually taking to put in various clues....
So I doubt it, that Gosho showed all clues about Sera and the arc yet. Yes, even with file 800 coming closer.

Sera could be for various stuff here. She could actually look for a spy in the FBI. She could be Akai's informant.
She could be Bourbon and be evil. Or she could be Bourbon and by a spy.

Personally, I think she could be Bourbon. But Chek mentioned some flaws:
- Usually, females get wine names and such.
But I still think Sera could have gotten or especially chosen Bourbon as a name. For once, she's a tomboy and mistaken as a boy easily. Before Kir, there weren't any cocktail names either. But Kir got the name (probably) because she's "Mixed", a spy in the BO.
So Sera could have gotten a "male" liquor name.
Or Sera wanted to have the name Bourbon. Since Akai loves to drink Bourbon, she could have wanted to have that name because she wants to be "loved" by her brother.
- She knows about Conan
That could be explained, when she's working together with Vermouth. Vermouth also knows Conans identity. But doesn't tell. Gin said Bourbon is doing things alone, meaning she's not in "Team Gin". And Vermouth is also doing things alone (before she was called back by Anokata). So she could be in "Team Vermy", especially since Sera always mentions that her mother has big boobs :x
Or Sera could be a spy with the codename Bourbon, so she wouldn't rat out Conan.

Tho this is all a theory by me now It's all a "could"
No one knows (besides Gosho) what exactly will happen. And that's the point. Maybe Gosho will make it boring, but maybe he'll do something awesome And I hope he does *.*

[caribou]

I think there is just a general frustration among some fans that the series is going downhill a bit. It's true what Chekhov pointed out that if, as a reader, I wanted more suspense and mystery, then I should probably stay off the forums It can't be helped that other people would notice things that I might not have noticed and therefore figured some things out.

BUT at the same time I do feel like the quality of the series is going down a bit because I'm not even excited to theorise or try to figure out the individual mysteries anymore. it's not about whether the case is plot-related or "filler". I didn't read Conan for the BO, my favourite cases in the series are just the normal cases that might be considered "filler". In the past I used to wait in anticipation for each new development or the resolution of the case because I couldn't wait to see what happened next, or to find out how the crime was actually committed!! But with the last 100 or so files I've been checking back on Conan more out of habit than out of real interest or excitement.

The same is true for the recent Bourbon/Sera arc as a whole. The frequency of the development is a problem for sure (I understand that it has to be spread out, but currently it is so spread out that to me it is beyond ridiculous). But more than that I think it's also that even WHEN there is a case with a BO appearance or a Sera appearance, it is of not much significance that it just doesn't bring much excitement to the arc anymore.

In conclusion, I'm kinda frustrated cos I am slowly getting used to being disappointed by DC recently. So even if I think to myself that Sera could be this or Sera could be that, or maybe the next case will be like this or like that, I end up with the sinking feeling that the end result will be disappointing. :X and I wish it wasn't like that and the series could be as interesting as before!

Just my two cents though, I don't know if it's just me or if anyone else feels the same??

[Tawi]

you nailed it caribou, same here...