Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOILERS!

Post any Detective Conan news, events, questions, and the like about the anime, manga, movies, or OVAs that don't belong elsewhere here.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by HADAA »

Ocelot wrote: The inspector almost looked like an alien.
That's all you need to know about this episode.  ;D
LAWLZ to that  ;D

I personally do love AO's however, because I actually engage in the process of trying to figure out who the culprit is. I can't do that with manga based anime cases because either I've seen the manga, or people already talked before the anime version airs. Just one of my pet peeves  ;)

And yeah, they have to keep the manga ahead of anime for I'd say at least one year ahead, otherwise they'd ended up cancelling the anime like that of Kindaichi did.
Last edited by HADAA on August 12th, 2009, 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by miakakiri »

AO's can be fun, but:
1) Ow....."Everlasting Luv" was NOT ment to be sung by a woman, it just sounds BAD.
2) Ran is OOC! She's not so unobservant as to take that long to spot the missing drum. And if there was a body, she'd call the police (probably call Sato-keiji or Takagi-keiji on her cell) and THEN go get her dad. The instant the guy sent her to "go get Mouri!" I figured he was the killer. Usually when you discover a body, you yell for the police and an ambulance to be called, not a PI.
3) How did the security guard not notice Ran rushing past and think something was off? And therefore come to investigate?
4) Oh, yeah, the band doing the lead-in to the OP was LAME. I showed my husband and he was like "Gah, that's dumb."
5) Speaking of the OP...I REALLY hope we get a new one soon. I mean, I love the animation (many Shinichi pictures! And lots of him with Ran!) and the melody is cool, but the lyrics are just...gah! Enough with the "aeverlasting" spelling mistake already!

I am looking forward to DCTP's next release, whatever it might be. And I am very much looking forward to more new eps in September. The "White Witch" case?
I have finally started to actually publish my story! For the moment, expect a new chapter each month.

The Case of the Midnight Channel
"When a strange letter summons the Mouri family to Inaba, Ran is expecting a case. She's not expecting it to involve the TV, though.
If Naoto investigated everyone who came to visit Inaba, she'd have little time for real cases. When Yukiko reports that the Midnight Channel is back, however, she starts to wonder if the visitors are connected. Especially when the image clears, unveiling yet another mystery."

Short version: I'm taking various DC/MK characters to Inaba (where Persona 4 takes place) and dropping them through the TV to face their Shadows!
Cross-posted:Case of the Midnight Channel at Archive of our Own.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by Akonyl »

miakakiri wrote: 2) Ran is OOC! She's not so unobservant as to take that long to spot the missing drum. And if there was a body, she'd call the police (probably call Sato-keiji or Takagi-keiji on her cell) and THEN go get her dad. The instant the guy sent her to "go get Mouri!" I figured he was the killer. Usually when you discover a body, you yell for the police and an ambulance to be called, not a PI.
maybe you're right on how she didn't immediately call the police, but I think you're overestimating how observant people are as to her not noticing the drum thing.

Like, watch this card trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

while some people can see the card trick the first time through, many people also don't, Ran's probably the same way.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by Eve »

Akonyl wrote:
miakakiri wrote: 2) Ran is OOC! She's not so unobservant as to take that long to spot the missing drum. And if there was a body, she'd call the police (probably call Sato-keiji or Takagi-keiji on her cell) and THEN go get her dad. The instant the guy sent her to "go get Mouri!" I figured he was the killer. Usually when you discover a body, you yell for the police and an ambulance to be called, not a PI.
maybe you're right on how she didn't immediately call the police, but I think you're overestimating how observant people are as to her not noticing the drum thing.

Like, watch this card trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

while some people can see the card trick the first time through, many people also don't, Ran's probably the same way.
Spoiler:
Hmmm.... That vid is weird.... first it focused on the card, and when the camera is back up, his shirt changed from yellow to black.... Isn't that cheating????

He did the same more than once!!!! *Her shirt changed when the camera focused on him* Then the *table cloth changed when the camera focused on her* *It's obvious when she held the card up, they switched the deck on card* but they also *changed the curtain when he focused on the card*....

This guy cheated XDDDDD :o

About Ran and her observant skill, didn't she solve that case involving her friend? You can't really say we're over estimating her... not to mention, it's quite weird she'd run and call her father, rather than calling the police first... she goes with Mouri and Conan in places where cases happened before, the first thing they usually yell would be "Call an Ambulance and/or Police" ... she should has at least thought of how weird that that guy asked that....
Last edited by Anonymous on August 12th, 2009, 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by Akonyl »

Khinkhun wrote:
Akonyl wrote:
miakakiri wrote: 2) Ran is OOC! She's not so unobservant as to take that long to spot the missing drum. And if there was a body, she'd call the police (probably call Sato-keiji or Takagi-keiji on her cell) and THEN go get her dad. The instant the guy sent her to "go get Mouri!" I figured he was the killer. Usually when you discover a body, you yell for the police and an ambulance to be called, not a PI.
maybe you're right on how she didn't immediately call the police, but I think you're overestimating how observant people are as to her not noticing the drum thing.

Like, watch this card trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

while some people can see the card trick the first time through, many people also don't, Ran's probably the same way.
Spoiler:
Hmmm.... That vid is weird.... first it focused on the card, and when the camera is back up, his shirt changed from yellow to black.... Isn't that cheating????

He did the same more than once!!!! *Her shirt changed when the camera focused on him* Then the *table cloth changed when the camera focused on her* *It's obvious when she held the card up, they switched the deck on card* but they also *changed the curtain when he focused on the card*....

This guy cheated XDDDDD :o

About Ran and her observant skill, didn't she solve that case involving her friend? You can't really say we're over estimating her... not to mention, it's quite weird she'd run and call her father, rather than calling the police first... she goes with Mouri and Conan in places where cases happened before, the first thing they usually yell would be "Call an Ambulance and/or Police" ... she should has at least thought of how weird that that guy asked that....

well yeah, that's the entire point of the video. :P

the idea is that while focused on the cards, you may not pay attention to the colors of various things around them, as you didn't think they were important. The video isn't actually about the card trick at all. There's also been a few studies done on it by different places, like one that some people at harvard did where they actually managed to switch people behind a counter with 75% of people not noticing.

So I'm just sayin it's not too farfetched that ran didn't notice the drum disappearing when she wasn't paying attention to it in the first place.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by Eve »

Akonyl wrote:
well yeah, that's the entire point of the video. :P

the idea is that while focused on the cards, you may not pay attention to the colors of various things around them, as you didn't think they were important. The video isn't actually about the card trick at all. There's also been a few studies done on it by different places, like one that some people at harvard did where they actually managed to switch people behind a counter with 75% of people not noticing.

So I'm just sayin it's not too farfetched that ran didn't notice the drum disappearing when she wasn't paying attention to it in the first place.
Hmmm... I didn't even finish the vid (pretty sure he'd show more change later... but the cheating ticked me off somehow :P)... XDDD and I spotted those different... and I'm not that observant or anything... it just he underestimate the normal human mind ^_^...


Ohhh.... They didn't noticed because 75% of those people ..... I don't know... statistic doesn't tell the location and the type of people ^_^

And Ran did pay attention... she looked around the set and said "So this is how they arrange their set"... glancing around at,  first the the HUGE DRUM Which by the way is red... and pretty much stood out screaming "Notice me!" LOL ;D
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by ssjup81 »

Is it wrong that I missed the drum too?  To be honest, I totally forgot about it until she said that something seemed like it was moved, then I recalled that something was there, but not exactly what.  Guess I'm not very observant either.

The only thing I was 100% sure of was who actually did it.  I figured that out early since his story didn't seem to fly.
Last edited by ssjup81 on August 12th, 2009, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by TheBlind »

Akonyl wrote:
Khinkhun wrote:
Akonyl wrote:
miakakiri wrote: 2) Ran is OOC! She's not so unobservant as to take that long to spot the missing drum. And if there was a body, she'd call the police (probably call Sato-keiji or Takagi-keiji on her cell) and THEN go get her dad. The instant the guy sent her to "go get Mouri!" I figured he was the killer. Usually when you discover a body, you yell for the police and an ambulance to be called, not a PI.
maybe you're right on how she didn't immediately call the police, but I think you're overestimating how observant people are as to her not noticing the drum thing.

Like, watch this card trick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE

while some people can see the card trick the first time through, many people also don't, Ran's probably the same way.
Spoiler:
Hmmm.... That vid is weird.... first it focused on the card, and when the camera is back up, his shirt changed from yellow to black.... Isn't that cheating????

He did the same more than once!!!! *Her shirt changed when the camera focused on him* Then the *table cloth changed when the camera focused on her* *It's obvious when she held the card up, they switched the deck on card* but they also *changed the curtain when he focused on the card*....

This guy cheated XDDDDD :o

About Ran and her observant skill, didn't she solve that case involving her friend? You can't really say we're over estimating her... not to mention, it's quite weird she'd run and call her father, rather than calling the police first... she goes with Mouri and Conan in places where cases happened before, the first thing they usually yell would be "Call an Ambulance and/or Police" ... she should has at least thought of how weird that that guy asked that....

well yeah, that's the entire point of the video. :P

the idea is that while focused on the cards, you may not pay attention to the colors of various things around them, as you didn't think they were important. The video isn't actually about the card trick at all. There's also been a few studies done on it by different places, like one that some people at harvard did where they actually managed to switch people behind a counter with 75% of people not noticing.

So I'm just sayin it's not too farfetched that ran didn't notice the drum disappearing when she wasn't paying attention to it in the first place.
Ran noticed the drum which is why she knew something wasn't right the second time. If the drum didn't register in her brain, she would of never had a suspicion something was different the second time around.

The video was fun but the horrible quality of youtube videos and small viewing area is what probably makes the majority of the users not notice the changes. They are very obvious, so if seen in high quality with a normal viewing area most users would get them easily.
miakakiri wrote: I am looking forward to DCTP's next release, whatever it might be. And I am very much looking forward to more new eps in September. The "White Witch" case?
Anyone that doesn't read the manga would probably assume this was a AO case. The way it is set-up makes you want to bang your head against a wall.
Spoiler:
That Sato..is like her brain marches to a different tune. I'm certain one day she is going to leave her house and forget that Takagi is standing in front of her car and kill him.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by kirite »

Khinkhun wrote:
About Ran and her observant skill, didn't she solve that case involving her friend? You can't really say we're over estimating her... not to mention, it's quite weird she'd run and call her father, rather than calling the police first... she goes with Mouri and Conan in places where cases happened before, the first thing they usually yell would be "Call an Ambulance and/or Police" ... she should has at least thought of how weird that that guy asked that....
Actually something interesting about that.  For me since I was planning to be a paramedic I would know xD

Usually in a stressful situation where someone is dying or dead there will usually be a person who takes charge and order people around.  The group of bystanders who are there during whatever accident or event to cause this are usually so stunned/shocked/scared they'll do whatever the person who seems like they know what they're doing tells them to do.  For example there was this one car accident scene I went to, the person was upside down unconcious in a vehical and for some weird reason people were trying to drag him out in a way that would probably break his neck (poor guy).  When we ask them wtf are they doing some nice lady who's ordering everyone around comes and says "oh but the vehical might explode so we decided to save him". 

I guess the moral of this lesson is that most people don't use common sense in stressful situations.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by soratothamax »

kirite wrote:
Khinkhun wrote:
About Ran and her observant skill, didn't she solve that case involving her friend? You can't really say we're over estimating her... not to mention, it's quite weird she'd run and call her father, rather than calling the police first... she goes with Mouri and Conan in places where cases happened before, the first thing they usually yell would be "Call an Ambulance and/or Police" ... she should has at least thought of how weird that that guy asked that....
Actually something interesting about that.  For me since I was planning to be a paramedic I would know xD

Usually in a stressful situation where someone is dying or dead there will usually be a person who takes charge and order people around.  The group of bystanders who are there during whatever accident or event to cause this are usually so stunned/shocked/scared they'll do whatever the person who seems like they know what they're doing tells them to do.  For example there was this one car accident scene I went to, the person was upside down unconcious in a vehical and for some weird reason people were trying to drag him out in a way that would probably break his neck (poor guy).  When we ask them wtf are they doing some nice lady who's ordering everyone around comes and says "oh but the vehical might explode so we decided to save him". 

I guess the moral of this lesson is that most people don't use common sense in stressful situations.
They panic and think of what to do. since Ran's daddy is sort of with the poilce if you will, Mouri can hold off the crime scene until the police arrive. It registered in Ran's brain something was missing. I agree. It happened with my mother recently.......

Everyone isn't like Shinichi, who notices things the moment they're gone....then again, Ran isn't usually observant, and she usually gives up and calls Shinichi to help. Even Jodie-Sensei picked up on that. Ran doesn't care for details as much as Shinichi does, who has to know all the facts before he solves the case. The plot holes to me seem evident, but not outright noticeable. Some people murder and try to cover it up quickly or frame someone else in an instant. And they try to remain calm. I think it was obvious who killed the girl.

The Japanese police force are made to look so stupid.....
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by sstimson »

Jd- wrote: THIS TOPIC CONTAINS SPOILERS WITHOUT TAGS, OMG! (NOT THAT THIS CASE WASN'T ENTIRELY TOO OBVIOUS ANYWAY, BUT A WARNING HAS BEEN ISSUED!)

slider-chan usually makes these, but I couldn't wait to post something so here we go. I'll save it for the end of the post to INCREASE THE SUSPENSE. :P

Now, first of all, let's pose a question about this case. From the top, we have to go over the criminal's method:

+ He helps pack away the equipment.

+ He then confronts the woman, proceeds to press her against the wall, strangles her, kills her, etc.

+ He then packs her body into the bass drum case and removes the hand from the mannequin and places it in the guitar.

+ He then approaches Mouri (conveniently present, may I add), lures away Ran (whose presence is even more convenient), and then goes downstairs to discover the body.

The key point to the entire plot: his 'alibi' witness, who happens to be Ran. If it hadn't been for Ran being present, he'd have nothing more than his own word to say there had been a body there--and even then, there's no way to introduce the body switch trick if it's just him standing there. Some might say he could get the guard to play the Ran role... But of course that's not going to work. Even if the guy told the security guard to fetch the police and maybe an ambulance, there's no way the cop would just take his word for it and not check the body/turn on the lights. Even more, had the guy said this to the security guard, the police would have to take notice of it later.

Was he somehow planning on Mouri to be there that day? Because, if it had not been for him telling Ran to get Mouri, no matter who else the his fellow witness was, there wasn't really a positive way to ensure they'd forgo the security station and run all the way back to the roof. No, more likely, they'd run to the security guard first thing without thinking about. Ran has special circumstances (teenage girl with famous detective father), so we'll let her slide.

Thus, we come to the question of... WHEN... did he plan all this? From what transpires later in the episode, we can see it's a crime of opportunity and passion, despite him knowing that something was up with two of his bandmates and another band. While he did seem upset at this beforehand, it was her harsh words about him and his BREAKERZ cover band that put him over the edge.

Did he see Mouri yelling and, while performing, somehow come up with the mannequin and bass drum plan? Did he plan the entire crime right on the spot?

I thought of two more pretty solid issues with the eppy as well, but I'll hold off as this is definitely enough to get started. Obviously the discussion is tilted a bit, but I think a case can be made either way. AND AS SUCH, A CASE WE WILL MAKE.

BUT NOW ONTO THE FUNNY!


While working on the episode and before I sent it to QC, I saw a particular part that gave me a fairly hilarious idea for when the QC was underway.

At the point where Chiba walks in holding the mannequin and says, "Mouri-san... I've brought what you asked for," I just could help but add something to the screen. So, when the QC came to be and it was being watched, this showed up on the screen at that exact point for the giggles...
Spoiler:
Image
It went over well. It was fun. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. :-*

In a Different thread I mentioned that this Ao reminded me of an Story called "Evil under the Sun" by Dame Christie. In it...
Spoiler:
the killer rows to a point with a carefully though out witness. They see what looks like a body on the beach. He stays with the "body and sends the witness to get help. The body they saw was a live girlfriend of the killer. After the killer send the boat back, his girlfriend ran the other way back. The killer calls his victim and then kills her while making her look like the earlier scene
When Ran left I though the victim is about to get killed. But that did not happen this time Jd, I believe you have your events in the wrong order.
1) The "Murder 2" event on the 8th Floor.

I am going to assume for now to make things easier that the killer remembers the story "Evil under the Sun" and decides to use that Idea.

The next step to temporary hide the body and then "volunteer" to help put away the drum. While putting away the drum the killer hide the victim in the drum and then moves it outside the green room. Now I not sure if on the way to see Mouri and get his witness he pass the models hand. Let's say he does . He then find a way to hide it in his guitar case and part two is complete. That he brings ran to the room and quickly sets the scene. He then gets Ran to enter the room and see "The Hand" Now he sends her to Mouri to get enough time to move the body but he makes the mistake of not replacing the Drum but instead he puts the drum back inside the drum case.

That is what Ran sensed was wrong the Drum on top of its case. One other Important point. Even with this plan and without the crayon, or the Case mark, This case would have been solved by the police pretty easy. From the marks on the neck, it is pretty clear the killer did not wear gloves. It becomes a case of  find the fingers and prints to match those on the neck and by taking all possible involved prints and checking against those involved the guilty one would have been found.
Last edited by Jd- on August 15th, 2009, 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by Jd- »

Sidenote: I edited your post a bit to move the spoiler tag, Timsonsonson, just to make sure no one took any spoilers toward Evil Under the Sun from the first few lines. Hope you don't mind~

Anyway, yep, I responded in the other thread but we may as well move that discussion here:
Jd- wrote:
sstimson wrote: Did this Episode remind any one else of AC's "Evil under the Sun" That is how I figured our who might have done it but not how. It  does seem similar to the before mentioned though
Maybe a little, I guess, but almost entirely because of the plot's centerpoint being time. Christie utilized the importance of the person's exact whereabouts in regards to their time alibis (and their company) numerous times over the years; the best of which was likely in Hickory Dickory Dock (a trick that's been copied so many times since that it's impossible to be fooled by it these days :P).
Any number of the AOs (especially the 1-parters) are known to draw directly upon some of the classic tricks and plots of yesteryear, including many of the ones made famous in Christie's works. There was a time I thought of making a list of all the borrowed/inspired bits, but I haven't even finished Marple yet (likely never will, grew a bit tedious) so that's looking unlikely. One of the most common plots for the AO episodes is to highlight certain characters, like with Mouri in 540-541 and Ran in this case, which did happen with Poirot himself.

Interesting write-up, though, sst. Did enjoy. :-*
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by ranger »

Conan324 wrote: whoever writes the AO is sure not creative
*Gosho walks in

"hey guys! I decided to mess around and dabble with the guys who work on the anime! yeah I wrote that episo- *looks at this thread*

*gosho slowly heads for the door
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by sstimson »

Conan324 wrote: whoever writes the AO is sure not creative
I kind of disagree. Borrowing for the classics is likely to be very common.What is clever was the way setting, and the reverse Look (a model's hand (Genius!)) . This Idea is good. Where it was weak is this was not a case where "a great detective" was needed. A little better writing is needed. I myself am not crazy about where the Great Detectives look at a case where to them it like I need you to tell my where I put my keys. If I remember right Detectives like Poirot and Holmes has turn down case as no interest and too easy.  It might have been better if Conan Dart missed and hit Takagi instead. Then we could see a good Officer doing his job. I think Takagi has the Potential to be one of the greats. Without Conan's help, I remember a case where he rushes out to save the bad guys life. He put that case together in his head and know what would happen if he did not act and how to act. It would be great to see more cases like that
Jd- wrote:
sstimson wrote: Did this Episode remind any one else of AC's "Evil under the Sun" That is how I figured our who might have done it but not how. It  does seem similar to the before mentioned though
Maybe a little, I guess, but almost entirely because of the plot's centerpoint being time. Christie utilized the importance of the person's exact whereabouts in regards to their time alibis (and their company) numerous times over the years; the best of which was likely in Hickory Dickory Dock (a trick that's been copied so many times since that it's impossible to be fooled by it these days :P).
Thanks. Adding HDD to my reading list. Reverse for me most of the Marples and just a few Poirots read
Last edited by sstimson on August 15th, 2009, 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detective Conan 544 Discussion + ...A Plot Hole!? (SPOIL

Post by TheBlind »

Conan324 wrote: whoever writes the AO is sure not creative
It's probably several writers and it's not that they are not creative but more that they have a smaller canvas to work on. Here are all the limitations I think enter the equation when writing a AO:
  • The idea must be ran by Gosho or his team to confirm that you aren't stepping on his toes
  • Nothing dramatic can be done with the main characters to keep the continuity
  • Things usually have to be 100% cleared up or "reset" by the end of the episode
  • Cases have to be simple or borrowed from a previous work to keep the deadline
  • Some episodes could feel out of place by the time they air due to something happening in the canon
With all that against you, you really can't blame the AOs for sometimes lacking(some of them are actually decent) but I agree that a few of the latest AO's seem like it was the last thing they had to do before going on vacation.
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