Files 743-752 Discussion Thread

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

But it's more likely that Bourbon is a man. All of the female BO members' codenames were something to do with wine so far (Vermouth, Sherry, Kir, Chianti) and Whisky is pretty much the manliest drink there is.

That and Kir used male gender pronoun "kare" to refer to him when Gin was holding her in his Porsche. She could be wrong, but why be gender specific when there are non gender specific pronouns available?

[Dus]

Well, she will hardly know Bourbon's identity or Conan would know about it as well. She might just be jumping to conclusions. This might very well be a false lead. Because why should Gosho have Kir use a gender-specific pronoun (and thus give away Bourbon's gender) if there are non-gender-specific pronouns available?

But that's not really relevant to this arc as long as nothing else hints towards Minerva being Bourbon, anyway.

[GinRei]

That and Kir used male gender pronoun "kare" to refer to him when Gin was holding her in his Porsche. She could be wrong, but why be gender specific when there are non gender specific pronouns available?

Was that the same chapter where Gin called Kir, Chianti?  One of the few logic/continuity mistakes we had to fix in that general timeframe.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Well, she will hardly know Bourbon's identity or Conan would know about it as well. She might just be jumping to conclusions. This might very well be a false lead. Because why should Gosho have Kir use a gender-specific pronoun (and thus give away Bourbon's gender) if there are non-gender-specific pronouns available?

Because she knows he is a guy? Just because Kir knows he is a male, doesn't mean she knows his real identity and could tell Conan about it.

Was that the same chapter where Gin called Kir, Chianti?  One of the few logic/continuity mistakes we had to fix in that general timeframe.

Yep, but was the kare thing an actual mistake? Even if Gosho didn't mean to use a gender specific pronoun, wouldn't that make it a revealing slip instead?

[Dus]

Well, she will hardly know Bourbon's identity or Conan would know about it as well. She might just be jumping to conclusions. This might very well be a false lead. Because why should Gosho have Kir use a gender-specific pronoun (and thus give away Bourbon's gender) if there are non-gender-specific pronouns available?

Because she knows he is a guy? Just because Kir knows he is a male, doesn't mean she knows his real identity and could tell Conan about it.

Can't you use non-gender-specific pronouns if you know the person's gender in Japanese? She could simply have reffered to him as Boubon anyway.
I think there's a slight misunderstanding: It makes sense for Kir to use Kare if she knows that Bourbon is male. But why would Gosho want to give Bourbon's gender away? Only if he wants us to believe, that Bourbon is male.

[Abs.]

He may want us to believe that Bourbon is male.

Kir knows practically nothing about Bourbon, much less gender.

But it may be that she assumed Bourbon was male, leading to her use of the 'kare' pronoun.  Even Gin was like "kare who"?

[Eve]

He may want us to believe that Bourbon is male.

Kir knows practically nothing about Bourbon, much less gender.

But it may be that she assumed Bourbon was male, leading to her use of the 'kare' pronoun.  Even Gin was like "kare who"?

well I deleted that raw, do you still have that part? I wanna refresh my memory on that...

[Abs.]

Afterwards Gin uses "奴" to refer to Bourbon.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Afterwards Gin uses "奴" to refer to Bourbon.

It's a somewhat derogatory ungendered pronoun, right?

[Abs.]

Sort of.  Nakamori uses it to refer to Kid.

[Eve]

Afterwards Gin uses "奴" to refer to Bourbon.

It's a somewhat derogatory ungendered pronoun, right?

Yatsu.... I think so........

[RedPoppy]

I keep trying to figure out how the riddle might be related to the Book of Revelations, but my readings of it in the past never left me with an impression of anything coherent or sober happening and we don't have a bible in the house for me to check it up in. It might just be something about judgement.

That's been bugging me as well. Apparently, the Japanes DOES refer to the Apocalypse of John though. Has anyone ever tried a biblical approach?

Tried and came up short. There's a Saint John's church near the Waterloo tube stop close to the London eye. There's also a chapel of St. John in the Tower of London. That's the best I came up with...

I just came up with three possible associations:
A) The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, meaning there will be four murders (or four murderers?)
B)Judgement Day, meaning the murders won't be random but they will be punished for a specific crime.
C) The Apocalypse can also be interpreted as the final struggle between good and evil. That would mean we're in for the finale^^

Everything else about the Apocalypse is probably way too outlandish for the average Japanese reader.

I don't think that this crime will refer to Book of Revelation by St. John. The murderer actually said "Tell Scotland Yard. That's my Revelation." I guess he just meant that in the riddle he exposed his future crime or the circumstances which made him to do it. Something like that. If it was kind of crime based on religious obsession, there would be more quotes, themes from the Bible.
Of course, we could treat elements from the riddle as religious symbols like:
EGG = symbol of life (which in the riddle is actually boiled and cold as corpse sooo...it means somebody will be boiled to death??),
BELL = symbol of God's voice, warning (the sound of bell "rises" the murderer, so God's voice told the murderer to make a crime...?) etc. etc.

I don't think that Gosho would make so hard riddle with so many symbols. Btw why the murderer obsessed with religion would tell the children to ask Holmes for help?

[Abs.]

From the actual raw, it's "Tell Scotland Yard...  That's my Revelations..." in English (note the capitalized 'R')

Now, judging from that, and the Japanese translation using "黙示録" as well as that same being the title of File 744, it is specifically related to the Bible.  (Another translation of 黙示録 is "the Apocalypse" but given that Aoyama wrote "Revelations" we used "Book of Revelation" in the English translation of the Japanese translation of the English)

[GinRei]

Also, Gosho is like multiple members of the staff (minus Abs), and thought it was called the Book of Revelations.  After looking it up (due to Abs telling us to), we realized there's no "s" at the end.  WHO KNEW!?

[Dus]

I think Poppy might be on to something with the egg as the symbol of life. There's no mention of it in the bible, but it's Christian symbolism nonetheless.

If the guy talks about the 黙示録 (I assume it's not used in a metaphorical sense in Japan?) then this a)is a hint towards how this riddle is to be solved or b)indicates that that guy is a Christian, maybe even a Christian fundamentalist.
Maybe Poopy's even right about the bell.

Is anyone in here familiar enough with the bible to give us the gist of the Book of Revelations? Maybe there will be a series of assassinations/attacks, modeled after that book. All I can tell so far, is that the number seven play an important role so far, in particular seven seals.
Then of course there's the Beast and its number is 666. The beast could even be a reference to the BO, who knows.

If this is the case, then we're certainly in for a very long arc.