New case (741-742)

[alicetama]

I voted for Chianti, for humors sake. After all, it could be someone who isn't introduced in the story yet.

And I think it would be interesting to see the first love of Chiba. i've always liked that guy.

[kkslider5552000]

Granted there are the Nyarls of the world but they should always be ignored or made fun of for being silly anyway.

From one stupid extreme to another! :DDD

Not being hilariously biased and serious is fun kids. :DDD

*gets popcorn out for Nyarl's hilarious response*

[baka1412]

Granted, as a tokusatsu lover like him, i wouldn't be surprised to see his first love was that Fairy Lady from Gamera movies

[Jd-]

How is that a logical criticism at all? "If Gosho feels it necessary to utilize his favorite plot device (implausible disguises), then we can only conclude the Org. plot isn't outstanding in the least," makes exactly as much sense, but both are ultimately empty assertion. "I don't like it," is a much more meaningful and honest way of putting it, if less pretentious (though, still possibly retarded before the story is out in any readable form).

Actually, that does make the same amount of sense and is an extremely common criticism of the series, is it not? The Black Organization plot is very often hit and miss and, as I believe our good friend dilbert has put it numerous times, it amounts to what is essentially a B-movie on that front. What makes it work, however, is the fact it's included in the context is the rest of the series. There, it does mean something, but the implausible disguises hamper the enjoyment and satisfaction most people take away from the series because, once you apply real-world logic to it, you get something that just doesn't withstand much scrutiny. As a result, the series loses some of the integrity one would expect from that which is supposedly grounded in absolute logic and modeled after pure, wordly reason.

As for the "retarded" comment, as offensive as that is: You do realize I'm kind of in the know on these stories, right? Like... I'm one of the people responsible for having them produced in English. I naturally get to see the translations and scanlations long before the public, so why assume so much? As for this file: This one is the same old story, and outside of one hint toward the plot that will eventually unfold, is likely going to be entirely unremarkable. If you are honestly trying to pretend that this hasn't been done before and each one of these childhood love stories is a unique and fresh experience, you are kidding yourself. This case may turn into something special, but this file is no indication of that. We'll see with the follow-up.

Beyond that, I really don't like to insult users, but you did have to say "pretentious". Really? You just assumed earlier in the thread that everyone complaining about this very, very, very tired plot device is an "anti-fan"--assigning yourself with an opinion automatically of greater worth than those you consider to be unfaithful fans that are supposedly out to get the series. Implying that people like the series any less just because they don't want to see Gosho run this into the ground is ludicrous. Criticism is a natural part of any good fanbase, and if you really just can't take people occasionally expressing their opinion on the less admirable traits of the series, you may want to re-evaluate what you're all about. I dunno; I just question whether you should really be worrying about anyone else being pretentious when, well, it sounds like you have some things to work out yourself. After all, you have written off everyone in here simply for disagreeing with you.

It isn't that people are overreaching or being pedantic with their criticism of the series, even: This plot is a multitudinous one in every sense--it's literally recurring and is absolutely prominent. We even had one for Matsumoto, outside of the ones for nearly all of the principal characters (Hattori, Kazuha, Ran, Shinichi, Agasa, Mouri, Eri, Yukiko, Shiratori, Kobayashi, etc etc etc etc). The reason I say it doesn't help Chiba's case is because he's now officially being lumped in with every other character that has one of these backstories, which is practically the entire cast. If Gosho wanted Chiba to be more important, he would have given him a backstory that made him stand out instead of one that made him fit in. That is why he's as one-dimensional as ever.

Most importantly, though... This isn't even including the ones that were plots in normal cases. This device has been used numerous times in any number of Gosho's stories now. When fans of novelists keep being subjected to the same old situations and scenarios, they express their displeasure about it. Does that make them any less of fans of the author and their work? Absolutely not. Why is manga so different?

Pretending that anyone who has a problem with any facet of the series is an "anti-fan" is just dismissive and doesn't really set a good example for others that will come upon the series later. Keep that in mind, maybe.

[kkslider5552000]

The Black Organization plot is very often hit and miss and, as I believe our good friend dilbert has put it numerous times, it amounts to what is essentially a B-movie on that front. What makes it work, however, is the fact it's included in the context is the rest of the series. There, it does mean something, but the implausible disguises hamper the enjoyment and satisfaction most people take away from the series because, once you apply real-world logic to it, you get something that just doesn't withstand much scrutiny.

I thought the reason the Black Org plot works is its ridiculously slow but steady pace and Gosho being awesome at suspense more than anything. (granted, what you said is also true and probably also ties into what I said)

I really don't see the problem with the disguises. When they are made exclusively by an extremely powerful criminal organization that NEEDS to be stealthy and not known by anyone, an actress who is married to a famous mystery writer (Yukiko), and a scientist that makes inventions that sometimes almost shouldn't exist (Agasa). And really, while I don't want to series to become too absurd, the only way the series can end in a satisfactory way that answers a ton of questions is gonna be science fiction-riffic, which is far more absurd than disguises. (although I don't exactly know a lot about similar disguises in real life admittedly)

also no offense, but do most fans really care about the disguises being implausible? I can honestly count on one hand the amount of people that I've heard dislike that EVER. Most are like "WTF ARAIDE IS VERMOUTH?!" etc

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Jesus Christ make him stop! For the love of god make him stop!
I am so sick of all this lovey dovey crap!

Welcome back Blaze, long time no see. Now if only I could convince Sandam to stop lurking...

---

I'm gonna wait on the translation in hopes this first love business is more complicated than it looks before passing judgment on overused plot devices. Most of the known known female recurring characters in the ballpark of Chiba's age who might fit the bill are: Kobayashi, Sato, Yumi, Azusa Enomoto, Yui Uehara, Yoko Okino, and heck I'll even throw Phantom lady/Kaito's Mom on the list. I'm leaving Eri, Yukiko, Akemi, and Hidemi Hondou off since they look a bit different as kids. Finally there are a few non-recurring chars to consider. Chiba is a bit of a kid's show lover, so I'm going to add Tomomi Sakaguchi from the Tragedy of Gomera case (128, V13.8-10). She's shows feelings for murder case culprit Shugo Matsui

Spoiler:

We also have Natori Mishio who played Kamen Yaiba's first love interest from the Onsen muder case (722, V69.4-6). She's tied up with her manager Tanzawa who was the murder case culprit.

Spoiler:

I may have forgot someone so I'll keep reviewing. Of course an unseen third party is possible. Maybe Chiba will be forced into a jailhouse romance?

Yumi, Yui, and Yoko have a symmetrical hairstyle. Kaito's mom is a question mark, although in the anime she has symmetrical hair. Sato and Kobayashi have more closely matching hairstyles to the girl. Azuha has long bangs and so is a possibility because cutting them might reproduce the appearance of the girl.
Yumi may have restyled her hair, but Kobayashi pre-haircut or Sato are candidates which would make for an interesting love triangle. The other two non recurring char candidates are both attached to someone who committed a murder thus making it more interesting.  We'll see how things go with the translation.

44.4-6

Later edit:

Granted, as a tokusatsu lover like him, i wouldn't be surprised to see his first love was that Fairy Lady from Gamera movies

I was scooped!

[Nyarl]

Actually, that does make the same amount of sense and is an extremely common criticism of the series, is it not? The Black Organization plot is very often hit and miss and, as I believe our good friend dilbert has put it numerous times, it amounts to what is essentially a B-movie on that front. What makes it work, however, is the fact it's included in the context is the rest of the series. There, it does mean something, but the implausible disguises hamper the enjoyment and satisfaction most people take away from the series because, once you apply real-world logic to it, you get something that just doesn't withstand much scrutiny. As a result, the series loses some of the integrity one would expect from that which is supposedly grounded in absolute logic and modeled after pure, wordly reason.

Well, that's actually an argument. You are kinda full of it about the absolute logic stuff though, taking the series too seriously. Conan is a self-conscious parody of several genres. It generally plays fair with the reader in the sense its not just absurdist, but it does ask you to suspend disbelief in many of the same areas supposedly serious films/novels/television shows also do. It's never even tried to be ultra worldly realistic, and often pokes fun at the various tropes it uses (ie, the "who's the jinx" conversation many detective-stumbles-across-murder series desperately need, the Clark Kent glasses which didn't work on the bad guys). The masks that are perfect disguises are part of that, too (it's been a while, but I think the old Mission:Impossible series used implausibly perfect impersonations a few times). Aoyama still gives plenty of hints that made it fair for the reader in the mystery context. You can dislike their repeated use, but proclaiming them to be some sort of objective flaw is pretentiously attempting to pass off an aesthetic preference as a criticism of real flaws (yes, there is such a thing as flawed writing, it's not all just aesthetics... take the end of Eisuke's story... it didn't make sense... it made past events even more confusing... it's very safe to say that was flawed unless someone can make sense of it).

This plot is a multitudinous one in every sense--it's literally recurring and is absolutely prominent. We even had one for Matsumoto, outside of the ones for nearly all of the principal characters (Hattori, Kazuha, Ran, Shinichi, Agasa, Mouri, Eri, Yukiko, Shiratori, Kobayashi, etc etc etc etc). The reason I say it doesn't help Chiba's case is because he's now officially being lumped in with every other character that has one of these backstories, which is practically the entire cast. If Gosho wanted Chiba to be more important, he would have given him a backstory that made him stand out instead of one that made him fit in. That is why he's as one-dimensional as ever.

Here you're just spouting easily debunked nonsense. More than a few counterexamples is plenty to prove even your qualified hyperbole to be hyperbole (Sonoko, Shuuichi, Shiho, Sato, Takagi, Megure...). You are even lumping in false examples. Matsumoto? He got to chase down a serial killer, unless you're being an ass and meant his daughter. Yukiko? She met Yusaku at high school age, and wasn't with the Eri/Kogoro'Ruri triangle in grade school. Kobayashi/Shiratori isn't even the same childhood friend trope, it takes an even further abstraction to "met as children" to make them the "same". If you're going to do that, why not just abstract everything to "met before death" and call all romance ever written the product of the "same very, very, very, very tired plot device"? Disliking it is your prerogative, at any level of abstraction. Playing games with abstraction to claim the writing is somehow flawed or poor and the writer uncreative on the other hand is just pretentious.

[Edited by Jd-: Cursing]

[scineram]

WTF can't he just develop the story with Agasa's instead?

[Jd-]

I had considered you were being pinned with an unfair reputation; I don't keep up with enough of your posts to see, but I can tell why you come off as such a charmer. Normally, I would ban someone who was so undeniably abrasive (it must be said), but I don't really mind--just the way the internet is. If you keep it up with others, though, someone may do it. I did enjoy your saying "aesthetic preference" considering that's the least of the problems concerning the constant use of disguises. Keep on rolling with that, though.

My apologies on the wording for the Matsumoto one; I meant to say "with" Matsumoto there. However, the childhood thing is far, far more prevalent than you give it credit for. The writing is repetitive and uninspired simply because, in the run of the series, a great many of the characters tend to run together by sharing these similar backstories. That is why it is not particularly impressive or even interesting at this point. Chiba is just about to graduate to the upper class here--really is that simple. You can offer Sonoko, Akai, Haibara, Sato, Takagi, and Megure as counterexamples if you'd like, but by doing so, you've acknowledged that several others of the principal cast do share this trope, and as far as I'm concerned, Gosho feeling it necessary to use it more than even twice is him just straight up retreading. Does it not tell you something when -everyone- here was already fed up with the idea of Chiba getting a love story the second they heard it? It's because the rest of us know exactly what to expect, because we've seen it a dozen or more times now. (I'll add in Kid and Aoko from the beloved sister series, would hate for them to get overlooked and also wouldn't want to point out just how much Gosho bases his lead characters on one another as is the entire argument here; even for parallels, you would think the guy had a little more to go on).

Instead of the thoroughly unique backgrounds you would see elsewhere, they tend to be relegated to two or three types. Not to mention that, by the end, we will very likely have a Sonoko childhood love case. This childhood love cliche has ran its course, and again I point out that you haven't mentioned just how many times that this has come up in normal, everyday cases.

(Oh, and Shiratori & Kobayashi is the same thing we've seen so many times over and your oversimplification for "met before death" and such is nonsense, to be frank. I'm also pretty sure you've ran over your limit on the word "pretentious" for the day, without even responding to my comments on it from earlier.)

Beyond all of that, though: You are quite rude (today?), even by forum standards. I'm actually somewhat surprised considering you've been a member here for quite some time; seems as if you've grown a little jaded after all this time. I don't really visit this side of the forums often, but I really do hope you don't make a habit of it. There is no need to pretend people on forums are vehement, personal enemies of yours--most people, let's be honest, won't even remember you or anything you've said until the next time they see a post of yours that they feel the need to reply to. As a result, hopefully you don't feel so spiteful toward them in the future before you've even tried to speak with them on a normal level. I'm sure you've been frustrated by others in the past, but that's no reason to immediately start with the insults. (On that same note, why feel the need to direct cursing at people--on here, of all places--where Conan is concerned? We don't even mind curse words on here, mostly, outside of when they're directed at others. It's time to chill out, I think.)

P.S. I believe Chekhov has already sorted out the entire Eisuke saga if it has confused you. I don't recall any major holes in it. Some of it was very clumsily put together, sure, but it mostly worked in the fabric of the increasingly unbelievable Conan universe.

[Jd-]

eh long posts....another one of those threads were ill flag as read 

Short version: Not everyone is a fan of the repeated childhood love stories, Nyarl takes exception to that, isn't pleased, and all should be well eventually.

File will be out soon, so then the entire thing will get started all over again! All right!

[Nyarl]

WTF can't he just develop the story with Agasa's instead?

Hasn't been 10 years yet.

I had considered you were being pinned with an unfair reputation; I don't keep up with enough of your posts to see, but I can tell why you come off as such a charmer. Normally, I would ban someone who was so undeniably abrasive (it must be said), but I don't really mind--just the way the internet is. If you keep it up with others, though, someone may do it. I did enjoy your saying "aesthetic preference" considering that's the least of the problems concerning the constant use of disguises. Keep on rolling with that, though.

Oh, just ban me and get it over with. Since you didn't actually refute or even particularly address anything, I have to conclude I'm right about the pretentiousness of knowing better than the manga-ka what he should be writing. Bad enough the kids in the spoiler chat box would go on and on about Aoyama not writing what they want him to write being "uncreative" writing, but now that the folks who do the scanslations are harping on the "more BO, more BO, no more romantic comedy, more BO, anything else is bad, and that's not just aesthetics, look at how many agree with me, that's evidence its not just aesthetics" it's time to find greener pastures anyway.

Profanity removed- chekhov

[Commi-Ninja]

eh long posts....another one of those threads were ill flag as read 

Short version: Not everyone is a fan of the repeated childhood love stories, Nyarl takes exception to that, isn't pleased, and all should be well eventually.

File will be out soon, so then the entire thing will get started all over again! All right!

lol ty, and thats so true im so sick of these i want BOOOUUUUUUUUURBON

The drink or the character? 

[Commi-Ninja]

Sure, but you'll have to find him first.

(Umm.... even though he's supposed to be bringing it to you.... Well, whatever, he's Gosho.)

[GinRei]

Bad enough the kids in the spoiler chat box would go on and on about Aoyama not writing what they want him to write being "uncreative" writing

Complaining that others are complaining is still complaining.

but now that the folks who do the scanslations are harping on the "more BO, more BO, no more romantic comedy, more BO, anything else is bad, and that's not just aesthetics, look at how many agree with me, that's evidence its not just aesthetics" it's time to find greener pastures anyway.

1) It'd be nice to get a BO case at least once a year, especially when the last one was awful at progressing the story at all.
2) The romance hasn't been comedic in years.  If you want romantic comedy, check out Hayate no Gotoku or Onidere, both of which are also in Shounen Sunday.
3) No one said anything else is bad.  They said stop reusing the same storyline over and over.  Know how bad it's gotten?  All I had heard about this case was "Chiba love story", and I instantly realized it would include a childhood friend, and likely turn out to be Yumi.  There are exemptions to every rule, but when "love story" almost automatically means "childhood friend" it's pretty bad.
4) If you want to leave, then leave.  You shouldn't need to troll for a ban if you want to go.

[Eve]

can gosho bring me the drink?:P

Is it a trap? as soon as he shows up you will bound and gagged him until he spits out the entire plot? Please do