Kaitou Kid's Role in the long run?

[sstimson]

First to temp bring this closer to on topic

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

The above is to prove that both went to learn from the FIRST KID!

You do not find it funny That Ran might have saved Sharon life at the studio ( yes she basically saved Rose but it was a 'Look out kind"  You should review the manga again. It was Ran who saved Rose by jumping to push her out of the way. Also, Ran was the one who noticed the armor falling in the first place. Vermouth never did anything.

I never Said SHARON did. My point was at the time there was not way to know who the statue might hit. The ponit was Sharon might have thought Ran movements and action might have saved her life. Look at her location. At the Time it fell, Sharon might have thought it could have hit her.

Another point. this page

Spoiler:

I find it interesting that Chris as least according to Sharon is as good as her. Another what if Vermouth was not Sharon but Chris?

Spoiler:

and Then the Killer ( will not say vermouth) almost kills her and then ask Ran why did you save me? If there were Sharon would they not know that is Ran's nature. Also I find it funny That the killer if Sharon could just out and out kill her friend's kid and his girl who might have saved her earlier?

So what? Vermouth can be ruthless. She is doing her job, eliminating interfering factors like she is supposed to. I think this incident was an important turning point for Vermouth's character. In any case it has been strongly established by info from after the case and Vermouth herself that she was the silver haired serial killer in New York in disguise trying to lure out Akai Shuuichi. See this discussion starting here.

So she lured him out but why. At that time there would have been no chance to do anything. But a very good chance of getting caught.
That would again work against  Bo Plans Right?

Also they say the Kid caught them

Spoiler:

I know you are going to say the switch happened later, but what if Chris took her Mother place that night?

[kirite]

Spoiler:

I find it interesting that Chris as least according to Sharon is as good as her. Another what if Vermouth was not Sharon but Chris?

That can be possible.  All we know is that "Sharon dressed in black" killed Jodie's parents and that the current Vermouth is Sharon.  It doesn't mean Chris was never Vermouth.

Also they say the Kid caught them

Spoiler:

I know you are going to say the switch happened later, but what if Chris took her Mother place that night?

But Yukiko has a conversation with Sharon the next day.  From Sharon's response we know she was at the theater with Yukiko and that she got saved by Ran dressed as the serial killer.  Why would you think Chris took Sharon's place that night?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Aaargh, please let's not flog this Vermouth issue. It is a fact that Sharon = Chris = Vermouth. They are all the same person and there is no indication that there was ever any real Sharon and Chris that Vermouth could take the place of. Sharon and Chris were simply roles created by Vermouth.

So she lured him out but why. At that time there would have been no chance to do anything. But a very good chance of getting caught. That would again work against  Bo Plans Right?

Vermouth was going to try to kill Akai by luring him out, but she underestimated him, it went wrong, and he managed to shoot her. The BO plan makes sense, it just that Akai is highly skilled and wound up on top in this situation.

Also they say the Kid caught them

Spoiler:

Not Kaito Kid, the kid refers to Shinichi who went into the building to look for the handkerchief Ran dropped and then followed the blood trails to Vermouth.

I know you are going to say the switch happened later, but what if Chris took her Mother place that night?

Yes, I am because we know the switch permanently took place when Sharon "died" and Chris came out in public at the funeral. Besides Vermouth was already doubletiming the roles much earlier than the NY arc anyway because it's clear Chris was already an actress while Sharon was still around.

[sstimson]

Spoiler:

I find it interesting that Chris as least according to Sharon is as good as her. Another what if Vermouth was not Sharon but Chris?

That can be possible.  All we know is that "Sharon dressed in black" killed Jodie's parents and that the current Vermouth is Sharon.  It doesn't mean Chris was never Vermouth.

Also they say the Kid caught them

Spoiler:

I know you are going to say the switch happened later, but what if Chris took her Mother place that night?

But Yukiko has a conversation with Sharon the next day.  From Sharon's response we know she was at the theater with Yukiko and that she got saved by Ran dressed as the serial killer.  Why would you think Chris took Sharon's place that night?

The callous way The"Killer" (Chris?) treated Ran. Her question of Why did you save me?
Ealirer Ran saved Rose with Sharon watching. That is why I wonder about it being Chris instead of Sharon. Chris would have no way to know how Ran would act. Sharon must have heard / been written about Ran " Shinichi" Girl Friend. As for the conversation. Chirs might have known her mom was meeting Shinichi's family and Sharon might have told her about the things that happened at the theatre.

Also I am being to wonder about Chris and Sharon being two different people. Chris in a way seems EVIL. Sharon on the other hand behaves Neutral. I can see Chris as a BO person. Her trick on her mother seems mean. I have a feeling that this night Sharon was being for nice and Evil Chris could not handle it. So she killed her mother and took her place and not long after that Killed her mother persona for real. Rememer these events only happened a year before the current story line.

Beside this would explain how Chris never took the drug and turned young.  It does answer a few questions

[sstimson]

Aaargh, please let's not flog this Vermouth issue. It is a fact that Sharon = Chris = Vermouth. They are all the same person and there is no indication that there was ever any real Sharon and Chris that Vermouth could take the place of. Sharon and Chris were simply roles created by Vermouth.

No lets do. Evidence a Fingerprint left on glasses matches Sharon. But as with Akai it could be faked. The Glasses Part would be real. The other is a piece of paper with a name and prints on it. That side could be faked.It is like Dental Records In AC's "One two buckle my shoe". The mermaid case is another example. Dental Records are changed so Party A becomes Party B.

So she lured him out but why. At that time there would have been no chance to do anything. But a very good chance of getting caught. That would again work against  Bo Plans Right?
Vermouth was going to try to kill Akai by luring him out, but she underestimated him, it went wrong, and he managed to shoot her. The BO plan makes sense, it just that Akai is highly skilled and wound up on top in this situation.

I disagree. Jodie after the Party showdown is still walking around. Why would she still be alive but he be killed? Yes I know he became a mole into the BO. But he did not bring them down by that. They are still in business. Yes the FBI has new Info but it is not enough to Bring down the BO. So why bring attention to them selves by that kind of plot. They have shown smarts at times. Are they dumb at times and smart at other times.

Again Pisco. You are going to claim he is dead just because you hear a gunshot. And after that nothing. Akai we are shown being killed. But he is alive and Pisco who only clue to his so call death is the sound of a gun shot. No body you are going to say it was set on fire, but A earlier fire would mean the Fire fighter are on the way to that room.

Also they say the Kid caught them

Spoiler:

Not Kaito Kid, the kid refers to Shinichi who went into the building to look for the handkerchief Ran dropped and then followed the blood trails to Vermouth.

I know it is not kid. Question: Why does a killer threaten to Kill Ran but runs from Shinichi?

I know you are going to say the switch happened later, but what if Chris took her Mother place that night?
Yes, I am because we know the switch permanently took place when Sharon "died" and Chris came out in public at the funeral. Besides Vermouth was already double timing the roles much earlier than the NY arc anyway because it's clear Chris was already an actress while Sharon was still around.

And there is no question that Chris is a BO member, but as I said above. There could be a question about Who shoot Jodie's Dad. With their mask almost prefect means that no one can be sure who that was. Remember this is a young gir at the time remembering how she thought things went down. Some would say the events of that night might effect how she would remember.

[scineram]

Comic relief.

[alicetama]

I remember reading once that Gosho originally only intended to have Kid appear once, as well as that the conclusion for DC has been decided since the beginning (although, stuff has probably been added since it was originally going to be a short series). With this in mind, I think Kid role will be more of a subplot if anything, like the MPD Love Stories. No real importance to the main plot, but instead it has its own plot.

Yeah, I think he would, if anything, be part of some sub-plot. But besides his own actual problem, in his own manga/anime, I currently don't know if he has any other involvement in DC.

He will have a lot of involvement in the ending of DC. (or so, I think)
It's mentioned somewhere in one of the plot descriptions of Magic Kaito, that his dad was killed by an ORGANIZATION.
And so, I think the organization is BO, and he's going to want revenge against them.(then again, this is just me.)

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

He will have a lot of involvement in the ending of DC. (or so, I think)
It's mentioned somewhere in one of the plot descriptions of Magic Kaito, that his dad was killed by an ORGANIZATION.
And so, I think the organization is BO, and he's going to want revenge against them.(then again, this is just me.)

Word of Gosho is that the Organization from MK and the one from DC are different.

[WolfenAmphithere]

Wow, had to search just to dig this thing up again, lol. I got to thinking about it again last night, that there's actually a lot of evidence in the DC manga alone of possible plot significance for Kaitou Kid:

Even though Gosho has stated that the two BO's aren't the same, Kaitou is still connected with the BO in DC through his father, who trained Sharon in disguise techniques. Sharon = Chris = Vermouth, who is a BO member [NY case and ]

We also know that Yukiko has met Kaito at least once when he was a young boy, and that Yuusaku has faced off against Toichi's version of Kid. (I personally think he may have even created his Night Baron character after Kid, though that part is only a guess). [both of these facts are mentioned in "Boy-Shinichi Kudou's Adventure", at least in the manga version]

Obviously, Kaito's identity isn't really something Conan is very bothered by, since he's much more preoccupied with hunting down the BO, but if he were to ask his parents about it, their combined knowledge might lead him to eventually ask Kaitou about his father.

We actually have all of the above facts from the DC manga itself, without any details from the anime, movies, or MK:
- We know Toichi is deceased during the Magic-Lover's Murder Case, because someone mentions him as a favorite magician and someone else points out that everyone listed so far is deceased.
- We know that Kuroba Kaito is Kuroba Toichi's son in Boy-Shinichi's Adventure
- We know that Kuroba Toichi is Kaitou Kid to Yuusaku, during the same case
- During the same scene with Kaito, we also know that Toichi is training Kaito at a young age to be a magician
- We can infer that since Toichi can't be the current Kaitou Kid, he must have found an heir, meaning that the Kaitou Kid who is Conan's rival is someone else, and this person is Kaito (obviously MK makes this 100% clear, but it's so highly implied during that scene in Boy-Shinichi's Adventure that most of us would probably figure it out without the MK manga)
- Kaitou has also been appearing more frequently recently than the BO, which is somewhat suspicious. His last appearance also had him mention his mother, indicating that she could be introduced for the first time in either series soon iirc

In addition to story elements indicating some importance, the fact that MK was put on hold in favor of DC, and then Kaito appeared as a long-term recurring character, tells me that from a business standpoint, Gosho may have made the decision after awhile to simply merge the two stories, since they were so similar to begin with and could easily fit together. Without asking Gosho himself we can't confirm this, but we know that DC was originally meant to be a relatively short series. After 72+ volumes, it's clear that he found that the popularity of the series was much greater than he anticipated and is finding it to be a good source of income. However, MK has only 4 volumes. With the abrupt art-style change partway through and an actual appearance from Shinichi, we know that he revisited the series briefly after DC had been running for a few years. The fact that he has not continued suggests that perhaps he was unable to boost it's popularity to rival that of DC, and has since decided to abandon it as an independent series indefinitely.

Since Gosho has stated that Conan was supposed to be a short series and that he had it all planned from the beginning, he's obviously edited his original story (unless he considers nearly 75 volumes "short"). Many characters, especially a lot of the police officers, the FBI, CIA, several BO members, and even Ai were not introduced for quite awhile. Many of these characters were probably absent from his original script, and those that were present were likely meant to appear much sooner. I wouldn't find it surprising if Gosho has made modifications to include Kaito in the main plot arc. After 17 years of working on a project, it's only natural to make adjustments.

Okay, sorry for the novel. To tired of staring at the contrast of black on white to proofread it, though, so I hope it makes sense.

[chinpokomon]

i hope he gets a part in the final BO showdown. i just finished movie 3 and although i know it was filler the last scene with their conversation was really showing basis for good coaporation in the future, but i can't help but wonder why put such an event like kaito find out kudo's secret in a movie? i don't know if kaido knows in the manga about kudo's secret but either way it kind of  confuses me as an anime viewer about the story.

[WolfenAmphithere]

No, Kaito doesn't know about Conan's identity either in the manga or the main anime; only the movies. Supposedly the anime staff did that, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gosho eventually joins the two series. I'd certainly like to see KID and Vermouth face off xDDD

[queenmisanagi]

It is my absolute fantasy that KID and Conan team up for the final showdown and that that the organization that killed Kaito's father (the original KID) is actually the BO. And that APTX 4869's secret ingredient contains particles from the gem that Kaito is looking for. But I think the more realistic thing to anticipate is that Kaito may have a role in the final showdown but it may not be major, like, maybe Conan will be on top of a building that's about to blow up (and he has nil gadgets because the BO destroys them or something) and KID who's been eyeing Conan for a while/on his way to a heist/flying around for fresh air then he would use his hang glider to get Conan out of there.. Something of that sort.

And then they're like, "Okay Tantei-kun, you're on your own now. Give them hell."

"I'll remember to thank you in your next heist. This doesn't change anything between us, KID. You're still a criminal."

Kid would smirk and fly off.

[Wakarimashita]

i hope he gets a part in the final BO showdown. i just finished movie 3 and although i know it was filler the last scene with their conversation was really showing basis for good coaporation in the future, but i can't help but wonder why put such an event like kaito find out kudo's secret in a movie? i don't know if kaido knows in the manga about kudo's secret but either way it kind of  confuses me as an anime viewer about the story.

It is my absolute fantasy that KID and Conan team up for the final showdown and that that the organization that killed Kaito's father (the original KID) is actually the BO. And that APTX 4869's secret ingredient contains particles from the gem that Kaito is looking for. But I think the more realistic thing to anticipate is that Kaito may have a role in the final showdown but it may not be major, like, maybe Conan will be on top of a building that's about to blow up (and he has nil gadgets because the BO destroys them or something) and KID who's been eyeing Conan for a while/on his way to a heist/flying around for fresh air then he would use his hang glider to get Conan out of there.. Something of that sort.

And then they're like, "Okay Tantei-kun, you're on your own now. Give them hell."

"I'll remember to thank you in your next heist. This doesn't change anything between us, KID. You're still a criminal."

Kid would smirk and fly off.

No, no, no ! Gosho has said both organizations are different and I really hope he will stick to that. Having Kid involved even in the slightest way in the end of DC would be utterly ridiculous. 

[WolfenAmphithere]

It is my absolute fantasy that KID and Conan team up for the final showdown and that that the organization that killed Kaito's father (the original KID) is actually the BO. And that APTX 4869's secret ingredient contains particles from the gem that Kaito is looking for.

You know, I've often wished for that too xD I doubt it, though.

And Wakarimashita, I don't think it'd be that far-fetched if he combined them. See my earlier post:

In addition to story elements indicating some importance, the fact that MK was put on hold in favor of DC, and then Kaito appeared as a long-term recurring character, tells me that from a business standpoint, Gosho may have made the decision after awhile to simply merge the two stories, since they were so similar to begin with and could easily fit together. Without asking Gosho himself we can't confirm this, but we know that DC was originally meant to be a relatively short series. After 72+ volumes, it's clear that he found that the popularity of the series was much greater than he anticipated and is finding it to be a good source of income. However, MK has only 4 volumes. With the abrupt art-style change partway through and an actual appearance from Shinichi, we know that he revisited the series briefly after DC had been running for a few years. The fact that he has not continued suggests that perhaps he was unable to boost it's popularity to rival that of DC, and has since decided to abandon it as an independent series indefinitely.

Since Gosho has stated that Conan was supposed to be a short series and that he had it all planned from the beginning, he's obviously edited his original story (unless he considers nearly 75 volumes "short"). Many characters, especially a lot of the police officers, the FBI, CIA, several BO members, and even Ai were not introduced for quite awhile. Many of these characters were probably absent from his original script, and those that were present were likely meant to appear much sooner. I wouldn't find it surprising if Gosho has made modifications to include Kaito in the main plot arc. After 17 years of working on a project, it's only natural to make adjustments.

[mangaluva]

He did once state that the MK organization and the DC organization were separate operations, but how long ago was that? Plans change, and logistically, having two trenchcoat clubs running around is just not feasible. Two words: turf war. Especially since they both seem to be after immortality in some form. Snake often comes off as incompetent, but he managed to kill Kuroba Toichi onstage and never have any suspicion attached to the death. Guess who else tends to make accidents happen to those who cross them?