Gin vs. Ran: Who is smarter?

[sstimson]

[

Spoiler:

quote author=soratothamax link=topic=3436.msg112574#msg112574 date=1275080600]

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Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Takagi is smarter than Megure. He solved the A plot of a case which Haibara solved the B plot (Love Story 3), though it was a pretty obvious name puzzle (but it took an even longer time for Conan to figure it out). He can usually follow Conan's not-trying-to-sound-dumb-but-not-Sleeping-Kogoro-level-explication, not always, but more often than Megure. He's even thought ahead of usually-worried-about-suicide Conan and anticipated a suicide attempt (Love Story 7) while an attempted murderess gave an extremely hypocritical rant to victims not interested in seeing the culprit punished. He's correctly gainsaid a Megure theory with a factual observation (ugh, can't remember, probably a love story case again... and it might have been Shiratori he corrected). (Might be worth splitting Love Story Takagi and Megure's bitch Takagi into separate listings. Megure's bitch being Megure's level or even lower while Love Story Takagi is on Sato's level.)

Megure is just dumb (heh, in universe that's still probably 100-115 IQ at least). About the only good moment he's had in the whole manga is knowing what Go stones sound like. Even Shiratori has done better recently. Characters like Sato, Takagi, Ran, and Kogoro have a better record of following Conan's hints without Conan giving up and needing to use a puppet show. Megure isn't as stupid as Yamamura, but he's close to bottom rung. No way Ran, who has “pseudo solvedâ€

[Detective Prince]

[

Spoiler:

quote author=soratothamax link=topic=3436.msg112574#msg112574 date=1275080600]

---

Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Takagi is smarter than Megure. He solved the A plot of a case which Haibara solved the B plot (Love Story 3), though it was a pretty obvious name puzzle (but it took an even longer time for Conan to figure it out). He can usually follow Conan's not-trying-to-sound-dumb-but-not-Sleeping-Kogoro-level-explication, not always, but more often than Megure. He's even thought ahead of usually-worried-about-suicide Conan and anticipated a suicide attempt (Love Story 7) while an attempted murderess gave an extremely hypocritical rant to victims not interested in seeing the culprit punished. He's correctly gainsaid a Megure theory with a factual observation (ugh, can't remember, probably a love story case again... and it might have been Shiratori he corrected). (Might be worth splitting Love Story Takagi and Megure's bitch Takagi into separate listings. Megure's bitch being Megure's level or even lower while Love Story Takagi is on Sato's level.)

Megure is just dumb (heh, in universe that's still probably 100-115 IQ at least). About the only good moment he's had in the whole manga is knowing what Go stones sound like. Even Shiratori has done better recently. Characters like Sato, Takagi, Ran, and Kogoro have a better record of following Conan's hints without Conan giving up and needing to use a puppet show. Megure isn't as stupid as Yamamura, but he's close to bottom rung. No way Ran, who has “pseudo solvedâ€

[soratothamax]

[

Spoiler:

quote author=soratothamax link=topic=3436.msg112574#msg112574 date=1275080600]

---

Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Takagi is smarter than Megure. He solved the A plot of a case which Haibara solved the B plot (Love Story 3), though it was a pretty obvious name puzzle (but it took an even longer time for Conan to figure it out). He can usually follow Conan's not-trying-to-sound-dumb-but-not-Sleeping-Kogoro-level-explication, not always, but more often than Megure. He's even thought ahead of usually-worried-about-suicide Conan and anticipated a suicide attempt (Love Story 7) while an attempted murderess gave an extremely hypocritical rant to victims not interested in seeing the culprit punished. He's correctly gainsaid a Megure theory with a factual observation (ugh, can't remember, probably a love story case again... and it might have been Shiratori he corrected). (Might be worth splitting Love Story Takagi and Megure's bitch Takagi into separate listings. Megure's bitch being Megure's level or even lower while Love Story Takagi is on Sato's level.)

Megure is just dumb (heh, in universe that's still probably 100-115 IQ at least). About the only good moment he's had in the whole manga is knowing what Go stones sound like. Even Shiratori has done better recently. Characters like Sato, Takagi, Ran, and Kogoro have a better record of following Conan's hints without Conan giving up and needing to use a puppet show. Megure isn't as stupid as Yamamura, but he's close to bottom rung. No way Ran, who has “pseudo solvedâ€

[Cider]

re:Girl19
Haibara has been in plenty of cases. If she has more detective ability, she would have been using it, hence my choosing tier 4. Haibara is good, evidenced by her deduction about the potential targeting of trains in the Matsuda redux case. However, Haibara definitely isn't up there with Gin and Akai though. She might be if she had more experience and a detective bent like Shinichi, but she couldn't solve the red, white and yellow case or the Ikkaku rock case, vs. Subaru/Akai although she quickly followed along with Conan's logic. She also failed to come up with a good strategy of her own to try to outwit Vermouth during that arc's climax which is why I place her below Vermouth. Haibara is plenty intelligent and also decently case intelligent, just not as case intelligent as Akai - and Vermouth in my opinion.

I probably don't give Yukiko enough credit. I remember her mostly for leeching off of Shinichi's and Yuusaku's deductions although she did notice she was being tailed in the prescreening case.

I don't think Heiji or Kid is on the same level as Shinichi. I would put them in their own tier, between Shinichi and Akai/Gin. Shinicgi is clearly a better detective than Heiji and Kid is usually foiled by Shinichi as well. Eri is definitely not on the same level as Akai/Gin; she is very smart, but isn't amazing at solving mysteries.

I thought about making a separate category for Heiji and Kid, but I decided they both perform at very similar levels to Shinichi that I would mark them at the same level, even if I do think Shinichi has an edge on them both.

I said maybe for Eri in Akai and Gin's tier, but I think Vermouth's level would be more fitting. She has some pretty damn impressive deductions which require noticing minor details and she does it very quickly, especially in the earlier cases.

---

Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Hphmm, intersting list, Chev, but somehow than Gin and Akai are supposed to be in a higher tier than Heiji and Kid. They're both older and a lot more experienced, yet smarter, hpmhhh
And Vermouth should be in Gin's tier or higher, lol, cos after all she does realise things Gin can't xD

[soratothamax]

re:Girl19
Haibara has been in plenty of cases. If she has more detective ability, she would have been using it, hence my choosing tier 4. Haibara is good, evidenced by her deduction about the potential targeting of trains in the Matsuda redux case. However, Haibara definitely isn't up there with Gin and Akai though. She might be if she had more experience and a detective bent like Shinichi, but she couldn't solve the red, white and yellow case or the Ikkaku rock case, vs. Subaru/Akai although she quickly followed along with Conan's logic. She also failed to come up with a good strategy of her own to try to outwit Vermouth during that arc's climax which is why I place her below Vermouth. Haibara is plenty intelligent and also decently case intelligent, just not as case intelligent as Akai - and Vermouth in my opinion.

I probably don't give Yukiko enough credit. I remember her mostly for leeching off of Shinichi's and Yuusaku's deductions although she did notice she was being tailed in the prescreening case.

I don't think Heiji or Kid is on the same level as Shinichi. I would put them in their own tier, between Shinichi and Akai/Gin. Shinicgi is clearly a better detective than Heiji and Kid is usually foiled by Shinichi as well. Eri is definitely not on the same level as Akai/Gin; she is very smart, but isn't amazing at solving mysteries.

I thought about making a separate category for Heiji and Kid, but I decided they both perform at very similar levels to Shinichi that I would mark them at the same level, even if I do think Shinichi has an edge on them both.

I said maybe for Eri in Akai and Gin's tier, but I think Vermouth's level would be more fitting. She has some pretty damn impressive deductions which require noticing minor details and she does it very quickly, especially in the earlier cases.

---

Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Hphmm, intersting list, Chev, but somehow than Gin and Akai are supposed to be in a higher tier than Heiji and Kid. They're both older and a lot more experienced, yet smarter, hpmhhh
And Vermouth should be in Gin's tier or higher, lol, cos after all she does realise things Gin can't xD

I was also hesitant about Gin's placement under Heiji....even though Heiji and Kid are meant to be Kudo's rivals and as closely similar to his skill (though not as good). However, Akai and Gin got their own rivalry, and they are meant to be awesomely good characters. Akai seemed to always be on point as "the silver bullet" especially when he shot Gin, which Heiji probably never would've guessed to do. And to me Kid is a sneaky cat, but he is quite imaginitive, and fantsatical, which lowers his logical and sensible nature.

[randompi314159]

re:Girl19
Haibara has been in plenty of cases. If she has more detective ability, she would have been using it, hence my choosing tier 4. Haibara is good, evidenced by her deduction about the potential targeting of trains in the Matsuda redux case. However, Haibara definitely isn't up there with Gin and Akai though. She might be if she had more experience and a detective bent like Shinichi, but she couldn't solve the red, white and yellow case or the Ikkaku rock case, vs. Subaru/Akai although she quickly followed along with Conan's logic. She also failed to come up with a good strategy of her own to try to outwit Vermouth during that arc's climax which is why I place her below Vermouth. Haibara is plenty intelligent and also decently case intelligent, just not as case intelligent as Akai - and Vermouth in my opinion.

I probably don't give Yukiko enough credit. I remember her mostly for leeching off of Shinichi's and Yuusaku's deductions although she did notice she was being tailed in the prescreening case.

I don't think Heiji or Kid is on the same level as Shinichi. I would put them in their own tier, between Shinichi and Akai/Gin. Shinicgi is clearly a better detective than Heiji and Kid is usually foiled by Shinichi as well. Eri is definitely not on the same level as Akai/Gin; she is very smart, but isn't amazing at solving mysteries.

I thought about making a separate category for Heiji and Kid, but I decided they both perform at very similar levels to Shinichi that I would mark them at the same level, even if I do think Shinichi has an edge on them both.

I said maybe for Eri in Akai and Gin's tier, but I think Vermouth's level would be more fitting. She has some pretty damn impressive deductions which require noticing minor details and she does it very quickly, especially in the earlier cases.

---

Revised list so far...
Tier 0: Kudo Yusaku
Tier 1: Kudo Shinichi
Tier 1.1: Kaito Kid, Heiji (tier 1 and 1.1 have only has a slight edge on tier 2),
Tier 2: Akai/Subaru, Gin
Tier 3: Eri, Vermouth (they notice more details than the chars in tier 4)
Tier 4: Sato, Haibara, Jodie, Yokomizo Juugo
Tier 4≤x≤5: Kogoro when Serious (he seems to fluctuate a bit)
Tier 5: Takagi, Megure, Shiratori, maybe Yokomizo Sango
Tier 6: Vodka, Ran, Kazuha, Agasa (only because he doesn't notice many details), maybe Yokomizo Sango,
Tier 6.5: Kogoro most of the time
Tier 7: Yamamura, Shounen Tantei, Sonoko

characters to place: Yukiko, Eisuke,

Hphmm, intersting list, Chev, but somehow than Gin and Akai are supposed to be in a higher tier than Heiji and Kid. They're both older and a lot more experienced, yet smarter, hpmhhh
And Vermouth should be in Gin's tier or higher, lol, cos after all she does realise things Gin can't xD

I was also hesitant about Gin's placement under Heiji....even though Heiji and Kid are meant to be Kudo's rivals and as closely similar to his skill (though not as good). However, Akai and Gin got their own rivalry, and they are meant to be awesomely good characters. Akai seemed to always be on point as "the silver bullet" especially when he shot Gin, which Heiji probably never would've guessed to do. And to me Kid is a sneaky cat, but he is quite imaginitive, and fantsatical, which lowers his logical and sensible nature.

Yeah, KID is quite intelligent, though he can be not as logical during his "crimes," though the illogic in his crimes actually has logical backings.

[Detective Prince]

You know I always wondered. Since Yusuke is a better Detective then his son why isn't the show called Detective Yusuke 

I mean seriously he can be a big help...we need more of him at least

[Conia]

You know I always wondered. Since Yusuke is a better Detective then his son why isn't the show called Detective Yusuke 

I mean seriously he can be a big help...we need more of him at least

Since he knows about the BO, the drug and everything that happened to Shinichi, he could stop working and focus on helping his son

[kkslider5552000]

You know I always wondered. Since Yusuke is a better Detective then his son why isn't the show called Detective Yusuke 

Yusaku is actually Yusuke Urameshi?! That's awesome! 

[Detective Prince]

You know I always wondered. Since Yusuke is a better Detective then his son why isn't the show called Detective Yusuke 

Yusaku is actually Yusuke Urameshi?! That's awesome! 

I know right. See thats my point he can just spirit gun the BO. Simple as that

[Girl19]

Okay, okay, she was fooled like the rest of the DC world.

But considering the fact she knew him the better and longer.. Kinda unfair towards the rest of the DC world.

Yeah, now. He could have convinced he police even earlier, but in the manga he and Haibara made clear why the police isn't/shouldn't be involved in this whole thing yet.

It's like, imagine this: You witness a murder, see the murderer who shoots at you after realizing you were there. He sees that you get shot and assumes you'll die. Luckily you survive. After that the murderer checks your house whether you are still alive or not. It's totally pointless! Okay, not exactly pointless, because what Chekhov said, but you know, by the time you have already given the information of the murderer away.

The comparison is not really valid here.. Gin was a little bit more sure about Shinichi's death than he would have been if he had only shot him and left. Not to forget that the BO more likely checked Shinichi's house before he had the chance to tell the police. And it's not like the police would be able to take down the BO anyway..

I think the Haibara is smarter  then Shinichi. Reason 1) She has a degree or two while he is still in High school. Reason 2) Shinichi could never make an anti-drug which Haibara is doing. Reason 3) She is quiet and stays in the background. He other the other hand rushes as fast as he can in to cases before he really knows what is going on. Put it another way Haibara has more common sense then Shinichi. Reason 4) The way she totally played him in to think Agasa was dead when they first met. This was total genius.

I agree with you. I believe Haibara is smarter than Shinichi, she's also more mature and perceptive. But Shinichi is a better detective mostly because Haibara doesn't even care about being a detective, and because Gosho's scared to let her outdo the meitantei .

though Haibara has common sense, practicality, and a good sense of knowing what is hidden...also is a good judge of character and is very good at handling the feelings of others, she is not as logical as Shinichi, neither does she use the same deductive reasoning that Shinichi does. He also is sensible, but practical he is not. He does things in a large way. He's also impulsive and rash, and often blinded by his love of being a detective to the point he doesn't notice anything around him. Ai is rarely distracted by anything....

I can't agree. She's just as logical as he is. And she doesn't use the same deductive reasoning, shes uses her own reasoning.
Even though people tend to think that Haibara and Conan are similar because they're both smart and stuff, I think they're different and use different reasonings.

[Girl19]

Quasi solved? She got the culprit, and almost all of the explanation. The only thing she needed was proof, and Shin'ichi only gave her a hint about how to get it, he didn't tell her how, she got it herself. The only reason it doesn't prove anything to you is your entrenched bias.

If anyone's biased here, it's you. After all, you're the one who voted for Ran even though you admitted yourself that Gin's smarter.
And Ran couldn't have solved that simple case without Shinichi's help, no matter how small it was.
So I maintain what I said, she quasi-solved it.

I actually rated Gin and Haibara higher than Ran in my comparisons, by the way. Ran is just not as stupid as people keep claiming. The evidence is pretty strong if you actually pay attention to it.

She's not stupid, I agree with you, but she's not smart either. If anything, she's average. Although her naiveness makes her seem below average sometimes..

How is seeing through Conan in the 7th story with him "slow"? If anything, she's a bit crazy for even being able to think that way. (Agasa's natural law breaking inventions give her some excuse, though.)

She should have seen through him right after meeting him. She used to hang out with him all the time when they were young. Isn't he supposed to have the same face? Her reaction should have been "shocked by the stricking resemblance" then "realizing Shinichi's shrunk, probably by one of Agasa's crazy inventions, especially that Agasa was there".

You're too busy dismissing stuff out of hand to pay attention to what's actually been argued.

Back at you, actually.

Here's another awesome example of bias.

Spoiler:

Haibara thought an awful lot, but in the end, she didn't even get Kid's identity. She gets credit for being a detective when she resolves nothing but Ran only gets handwaved as "quasi solving" a case.

And, of course, Ran isn't allowed to have the non-competitive disinterested excuse, either...

Of course she isn't. How many times did we see Ran thinking about Shinichi and what he would do in such situation, trying to act like him and getting to know the same feeling of satisfaction/victory that he gets after solving a case? She obviously can't have the same excuse as Haibara. Forget about your "entrenched bias" a moment and remember that Ran actually tries to solve cases, Haibara doesn't. She just doesn't seem interested. She only feels the need to do so when Conan's not around, because she has to. And even then, when Conan's around once again, she'd stop and let him do his job.
And of course Aoyama won't let Haibara (or anyone else, for that matter) fully solve a KID case and find out about his identity. That's Conan's job. So the fact that Haibara was the detective during a KID case, even without getting KID's identity, still outweighs the case Ran quasi-solved. And don't forget that Aoyama rarely gives Haibara a chance. He gave Ran far more chances and I believe he'll give her other chances in the future because he still has things to prove about her; as for Haibara, it's already crystal clear that's she's very smart.

I doubt Gin is on Akai's level. Akai did very well infiltrating the Org. and luring Gin into a trap until Camel ruined it, and it looks like he pulled off another trick with Kir that had Gin fooled for a while at least. Gin is very smart, but don't let his natural suspicion/paranoia being coincidentally right fool you into thinking he's smarter than he really is.

Spoiler: not yet animated stuff touched on

Bourbon and Okiya can both parallel Shin'ichi's thinking. They are probably close to being equals, but Conan did better than Akai at a couple of points in Red vs. Black, so depending on who is an alter ego of whom, I'm rating Conan higher than all three by a touch.

You're not giving Gin any credits here. Akai was able to fool Gin and infiltrate the organization because he was helped by his comrades. And if he really pulled a trick with Kir, once again it would be "Akai-AND-Kir vs Gin". If anything, Gin is smarter than Akai because he always seems to find out about his tricks. The only way for Akai to win is to team up with Conan, which he probably did if Akai=Okiya.

Spoiler: In reply to the spoiled part

While I agree that Okiya can parallel Shinichi's thinking, probably even more than Heiji, if you ask me, I don't know about Bourbon. We haven't seen him, we don't know anything about him, and of course we don't know if Bourbon=Okiya. So how can you assume that Bourbon can parallel Shinichi's thinking?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Bourbon and Okiya can both parallel Shin'ichi's thinking. They are probably close to being equals, but Conan did better than Akai at a couple of points in Red vs. Black, so depending on who is an alter ego of whom, I'm rating Conan higher than all three by a touch.

While I agree that Okiya can parallel Shinichi's thinking, probably even more than Heiji, if you ask me, I don't know about Bourbon. We haven't seen him, we don't know anything about him, and of course we don't know if Bourbon=Okiya. So how can you assume that Bourbon can parallel Shinichi's thinking?

Bourbon has shown up assuming he's scar Akai - which is pretty likely at this point. Remember, scar Akai was responsible for sending Kogoro the cellphone deduction in the red shirt's case. He got everything but the names of the people, and may have only missed that part because the cellphone he "borrowed" wasn't capable of going online. Also, Gin himself said that someone, and judging by the context of the conversation is referring to scar Akai aka Bourbon - was a great detective like Sherlock Holmes. Gin's opinion has to count for something. If you need references for the scarAkai=Bourbon theory, check the stickied theory reference thread on the story discussion board.

[Girl19]

Spoiler: Manga spoiler reply to Girl19

Bourbon has shown up assuming he's scar Akai - which is pretty likely at this point. Remember, scar Akai was responsible for sending Kogoro the cellphone deduction in the red shirt's case. He got everything but the names of the people, and may have only missed that part because the cellphone he "borrowed" wasn't capable of going online. Also, Gin himself said that someone, and judging by the context of the conversation is referring to scar Akai aka Bourbon - was a great detective like Sherlock Holmes. Gin's opinion has to count for something. If you need references for the scarAkai=Bourbon theory, check the stickied theory reference thread on the story discussion board.

Spoiler:

I see now, but this is only assuming scarAkai=Bourbon..
I think I'll check that thread later on as I'm interested to know what people think about scarAkai.

[Detective Prince]

Yep, Eisuke could be pretty good, if they decide to return him to the story somehow.

Ew Eisuke was annoying I don't him back unless he comes to try to steal Ran Away....lmao get it?