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How did the fans deduced that the one who Gin talked about " Always doing as he pleases... that bastard irritates me" is Bourbon?

Who else could they talking about? They are about to snipe Scar Akai, who if not real Akai, must be a disguise made by someone. We see all known and alive Bo members in this case. If anyone else that BO know about but don't want to shoot. It should be another BO, and should be Bourbon. Gin also say the one that irritates him is the Holms-like person that should only exist in novel, which fit Kir description of Bourbon.

In order to understand this scene, one need to decipher Vermouth hidden conversation with Gin. The wiki say it better than me

The conversation between Gin and Vermouth about getting the boss's approval can be interpreted as Vermouth informing Gin of Bourbon's plan to disguise as Akai with Vermouth's help and test the reactions of the FBI agents. In that scene, there is a panel with no speech where Vermouth faces Gin and whispers something to him. This signifies a conversation between Gin and Vermouth that the readers were not allowed to hear. At this time, Vermouth informs Gin that Scar Akai is Bourbon in disguise, and that she helped with that disguise as part of a plan to test the FBI's reactions to him to see if Akai is still alive. Gin asks if Vermouth got authorization from the boss to go through with this plan and disguise Bourbon as Akai. Vermouth affirms this and explains that the boss is cautious and wants to make doubly certain the FBI didn't plan a trick with Kir to fake Akai's death.

KingCzar wrote:How did the fans deduced that the one who Gin talked about " Always doing as he pleases... that bastard irritates me" is Bourbon?

TLDR: When 704 was released, many fans made the assumption at the start that Gin was talking about Bourbon (even if they weren't sure who Bourbon was). When alternate theories that Gin could have been discussing someone else came up months later, none caught on because they were attached to theories that were quashed.

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I jumped in the time machine to the old forum's original threads about the Red Shirts case to figure this out. ...


After a one week break, the spoilers for 704 hit (August 23, 2009). The next few months were spent figuring out how the case finale impacted various theories.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Due to Gin using difficult grammatical constructions which are confusing to the poor translators, I am not sure what Gin meant by the Sherlock Holmes quote and thus am waiting to stand corrected, but it sure sounded like Gin said that the person he saw was that detective-like person who always acts on his own: aka scar Akai = Bourbon. Darn it Gin, less talking in riddles more stating things unambiguously please!

James Rye wrote:

Rellik wrote: When Gin was talking about that great detective, i get the idea he was talking about Okiya...

i mean he definitely doesn't know the existence of Conan, Okiya is a 'great' detective, and i don't find it strange if Okiya and Gin had like a clash before.

and when Okiya said that he saw scar akai on this floor and it wasn't the person he thought he was, anyone think that he thought scar akai was rena?
(though i dont think Okiya = Eisuke, because if Okiya does have a past with Gin, i think it would have been for a very long time - and i don't think Eisuke fits the bill)

P.S Why isn't Rena shot yet? xD

I also thought that he means Bourbon. Maybe Bourbon contacted the Boss who give vermouth the order to back off Gin and the others. Could be the bitter coffee? XP
When Okiya is Bourbon, he probably have the idea that Rena is under the eyes from Gin, so no.^^
But if Okiya is Bourbon then who is burned Akai cause he cannot be the real Akai?!
Rena isn't shot cause they still need her and Akais Identity isn't completely confirmed?

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:

Rellik wrote: P.S Why isn't Rena shot yet? xD

Gin doesn't want to ruin the upholstery...

... just kidding. Gin couldn't see Okiya because of the crowd, but I thought it sounded like Gin was talking about Bourbon. I think Gin realized after watching Scar Akai for a bit that he was Bourbon, not Akai, even though Gin said "Akai Shuuichi" at first. If Gin seriously thought scar Akai was Akai Shuuichi, he wouldn't have lowered his gun since Shuuichi being alive would have confirmed that Hidemi (Kir) was a spy. If in the next chapter Gin's suspicion seems to have lowered and the B.O. hasn't started a manhunt, I think that will be fairly conclusive evidence that Gin doesn't think scar Akai is Shuuichi. (Considering scar Akai is right handed and acting in a manner that is harmful to Hidemi, the chances that he is the real Akai seem to be nil.)

conankun92 wrote:The Sherlock Holmes that Gin mentioned was referring to Bourbon. This is because Bourbon was described to be quite a detective. And Vermouth apparently received orders from The Boss to not act because Bourbon is apparently still inside.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: •He is stalking the FBI and appearing before them as Akai, probably to judge from their reactions whether the real Akai is still alive. Gin seems to think this is insubordinate, "Hmph... Always doing as he pleases... that bastard irritates me. " Gin's line also implies that Bourbon doing things on his own is a common occurrence.

....

•Bourbon is skilled at detective work and information gathering. Gin's comment about "a detective like Sherlock Holmes" indicates his skills are high, and this is Gin's opinion which has to count for something. His deduction at the red shirts case wasn't as complete Okiya's and Conan's, but he may not have had access to the internet and therefore info on the snowy mountains case with his "borrowed" phone.

Most people assumed that Gin was talking about Bourbon because Bourbon was said to be a detective-like person by Kir earlier and the conversations logically connected. Initial theories about Gin speaking of the real Shuuichi Akai were squashed pretty quick when it was pointed out that Gin just passively drove off without hurting Kir. Who Bourbon was, Okiya or Scar Akai, affected how people interpreted Gin's lines. Eventually several people did call into question who Gin was referring to, but the idea never stuck...

Toichi wrote:

Conan324 wrote:

Toichi wrote: One more thing that bothers me is how did Akai as Okiya changed himself altogether. And the other question that Gin making a reference to sherlock holmes while referring to that person, it just strenghtens the theory that Yusaku Kudo (shinichi's dad, novelist) could be the boss..

he was talking about scar akai and not thr boss.....

I guess I was wrong I din't follow the last 2 pages thoroughly.. I thought it was odd why he would at this stage.. Sheesh then he was referring to Bourbon.. I think it will probably be the next arc where we are going to see that showdown..

Misztina wrote:Why do you think that the "bastard, who irritates" Gin is Bourbon and not someone else?

Theory-time:
Let's assume that Scar Akai is not a member of BO, just someone who wants to lure out the BO. Since ScarAkai knew that he will be followed by the BO he warned Jodie in the department store to run away, because that place is dangerous. Note, that Okiya found out about Gin's and Kir presence much later.
Of course this can only work if we assume that Oiya is Akai & Bourbon at the same time, which is likely, but cannot be 100% confirmed.

By March 22, 2010, I must have thought about it some more, because I acknowledged there was a theory Gin could have been speaking of someone else when I put together the aggregate post for the Scar Akai = Bourbon theory.

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Gin’s comments about scar Akai suggest Scar Akai is Bourbon. If Gin isn’t talking abut Okiya who is Akai (who Gin doesn't know about) then that leaves scar Akai as the subject of Gin’s monologue. (704.13) (704.14)
Gin: “Hmph... Always doing as he pleases... that bastard irritates me.”
Kir: “Eh? Who?”
Gin: “……… Just as you said…Someone you wish was only in a novel… A great detective, like Sherlock Holmes…”
Gin's line about scar Akai “always doing as he pleases...” implies that Bourbon is doing things on his own, which Gin said Bourbon tends to do. (703.03)

There may have been more debate about Gin's lines after this (maybe when Sera popped up), but prevailing opinion during the year after this case strongly shifted to Scar Akai = Bourbon and Okiya = Akai. Someone would have probably pointed out that Gin's lines were a logical continuation of the dialogue from Kir's earlier remark, and that there were holes in other theories.

Apologies that this turned out somewhat egocentric. It is easier to track my own dialogue vs other convos, so I might have missed something.

Thank you for shedding a light in my problem:)

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I concluded that (being the editor for at least part of that case in manga form and the anime version) was pretty simple. Foremost, there really wasn't anyone else that would make sense, and secondly (and most importantly) it served to help set the scene and set up the Bourbon character. If he were talking about someone else, Bourbon would be a real sideshow. At that point, we already knew that Scar Akai and Bourbon were one in the same and deduced his motive for appearing as Akai ("he was testing the reactions of those close to Akai to see if they actually thought he was dead"). I never entertained that he could be talking about someone else, as Kir mentioning that Bourbon was an expert at gathering intel and then Gin saying this person was detective-like, it all fit perfectly whereas all other theories just seemed too full of holes for me. (Kind of like "Okiya is anyone but Akai"; if you try hard enough, you can come up with something, but only if you ignore all of the clues that are meant to lead to the right conclusion)

Bourbon was being set up as a "good-bad" guy already (not dissimilar to Jodie and Kir before him), so every time Gin said anything that amounted to "this guy isn't really quite like us", it just further served as confirmation that Bourbon would be 1) a good guy in the end and 2) would give reason for him to not always act in the Org's best interests. By the end, with that sniping scene, there wasn't any doubt about any of the above, in my mind at least.

In essence, Gosho virtually never glorifies an out-and-out villain, culprit, or bad guy. In the very instances where he does, it's always accompanied by a trade-off where Conan and company are still right there with them at the very least. So, if he spends time beefing up a good-bad character and humanizing them, you can bet they're going to turn out good in the end.