Details relating to the end of 894 (warning: spoilers)

[Yuki_JX]

When analyzing artwork for clues, it is easy to jump prematurely to a conclusion because you think something matches or is different, but the reality is that it is within the realm of natural variation for the artist. If you are going to analyze images effectively, you have to test the "null hypothesis" that in fact your art suspicions mean nothing. I think Jd- is saying that he hasn't done the work to make sure the art conclusions being drawn are well supported.

I want to point out this. The variations in height and thickness may vary in manga, but ratio & proportion is always an absolute rule in drawing manga. Ratio & Proportion will dictates the sex & age (baby, child, teens or adult) of the given character. If Subaru has a 1:3 ratio for head and shoulder all male adult like Subaru must have the same proportion (like Yusaku and Kogoro). If Mask Subaru has 1:2 ratio (head and shoulder) which is same ratio for female adult this confirms that sex for this character is female. The universal rule is Male has broad shoulder while Female has narrow shoulder, which applies in both manga and reality.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

When analyzing artwork for clues, it is easy to jump prematurely to a conclusion because you think something matches or is different, but the reality is that it is within the realm of natural variation for the artist. If you are going to analyze images effectively, you have to test the "null hypothesis" that in fact your art suspicions mean nothing. I think Jd- is saying that he hasn't done the work to make sure the art conclusions being drawn are well supported.

I want to point out this. The variations in height and thickness may vary in manga, but ratio & proportion is always an absolute rule in drawing manga. Ratio & Proportion will dictates the sex & age (baby, child, teens or adult) of the given character. If Subaru has a 1:3 ratio for head and shoulder all male adult like Subaru must have the same proportion (like Yusaku and Kogoro). If Mask Subaru has 1:2 ratio (head and shoulder) which is same ratio for female adult this confirms that sex for this character is female. The universal rule is Male has broad shoulder while Female has narrow shoulder, which applies in both manga and reality.

Right, but the point I am making about testing the null hypothesis is that there hasn't been testing to show that Subaru is consistently drawn with 1:3 shoulder widths, that reasonable women (Yukiko, Kir, Jodie, whoever) are consistently drawn with 1:2, and how disguise affects shoulder widths. Same goes for chin pointiness, and other aspects. If I am going to believe the theory, I need to know how common exceptions in the data are (Exceptions are fine as long as they are rare and "one-shot").

[Yuki_JX]

When analyzing artwork for clues, it is easy to jump prematurely to a conclusion because you think something matches or is different, but the reality is that it is within the realm of natural variation for the artist. If you are going to analyze images effectively, you have to test the "null hypothesis" that in fact your art suspicions mean nothing. I think Jd- is saying that he hasn't done the work to make sure the art conclusions being drawn are well supported.

I want to point out this. The variations in height and thickness may vary in manga, but ratio & proportion is always an absolute rule in drawing manga. Ratio & Proportion will dictates the sex & age (baby, child, teens or adult) of the given character. If Subaru has a 1:3 ratio for head and shoulder all male adult like Subaru must have the same proportion (like Yusaku and Kogoro). If Mask Subaru has 1:2 ratio (head and shoulder) which is same ratio for female adult this confirms that sex for this character is female. The universal rule is Male has broad shoulder while Female has narrow shoulder, which applies in both manga and reality.

Right, but the point I am making about testing the null hypothesis is that there hasn't been testing to show that Subaru is consistently drawn with 1:3 shoulder widths, that reasonable women (Yukiko, Kir, Jodie, whoever) are consistently drawn with 1:2, and how disguise affects shoulder widths. Same goes for chin pointiness, and other aspects. If I am going to believe the theory, I need to know how common exceptions in the data are (Exceptions are fine as long as they are rare and "one-shot").

No. you dont need any hypothesis and any complicated testing for that. Like what I said Ratio & Proportion is always an "Absolute Rule" in drawing manga you don't need any scientifical method cause its already widely known for manga/anime artist. The Ratio & Proportion doesn't need to be consistently 1:3 it may vary in 1:2.95 or 1:2.8 or etc, no manga artist will draw it in a very consistent as perfect as 1:3 ratio, cause will consume more time just measuring it evenly. The Ratio & Proportion may differ among the manga artist, a manga artist may use 1.25, 1:3 or 1:4 ratio for male depending of his/her style. You may test it, but I believe it will be the same. There will be a inconsistencies, considering the running time of Detective Conan as manga, the drawing style of Conan changed alot these past years.

how disguise affects shoulder widths

I remember when Vermouth pose as Ariade and use air balloon like jacket to imitate/copy Araide's body shape (including of course shoulder width) its example of almost perfect disguise. While in the case of Mask Subaru is different a good example of an amateur in disguise.

[Jd-]

I think all of this could be resolved by grabbing some random samples and showcasing the width ratios first-hand. If anyone has time, it'd be interesting to see either way.

[PhantomWriter]

A null hypothesis comparison sounds like a good idea, Chekhov, but we need to wait a few days for more information about Mask Subaru. My stuff is just tentative at this time. If new information arises, the theories and hypotheses everyone is positing need to change to accommodate the new information. That's basic scientific method and empiricism. *shrugs*

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

No. you dont need any hypothesis and any complicated testing for that. Like what I said Ratio & Proportion is always an "Absolute Rule" in drawing manga you don't need any scientifical method cause its already widely known for manga/anime artist...
The Ratio & Proportion may differ among the manga artist, a manga artist may use 1.25, 1:3 or 1:4 ratio for male depending of his/her style. You may test it, but I believe it will be the same.

I don't accept "I believe" without evidence to back it. That's why I proposed testing, which isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. Jd- proposed random sample. That's a good idea.

A null hypothesis comparison sounds like a good idea, Chekhov, but we need to wait a few days for more information about Mask Subaru. My stuff is just tentative at this time.

Waiting is for the best. You put the idea out and got people interested. Next chapter will likely be useful because there will probably be a lot more Subaru.

This situation reminds me of Scar Akai's scar and collage I made for that to showcase Gosho's level of variation.

[Yuki_JX]

I don't accept "I believe" without evidence to back it. That's why I proposed testing, which isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. Jd- proposed random sample. That's a good idea.

Anyone can see and test the evidences/proofs easily by reading/viewing the manga online and by using a finger, a pencil or a even a ruler to measure the ratio. I use the words "I believe" because this is what truth is all about. If you think that I dont have an evidence to begin with, then, I think you don't understand what I been pointing out ever since. My evidence is already written in any manga tutorial book who teaches about ratio & proportion. And my proof is already drawn in manga pages of detective conan.

My Desktop is broken so can't use a photoshop to show you guys what I'm talking about. So see it with your own eyes online.

[k11chi]

I don't accept "I believe" without evidence to back it. That's why I proposed testing, which isn't as complicated as you make it out to be. Jd- proposed random sample. That's a good idea.

Anyone can see and test the evidences/proofs easily by reading/viewing the manga online and by using a finger, a pencil or a even a ruler to measure the ratio. I use the word "I believe" because this is what truth is all about. If you think that I dont have an evidence to begin with, then, I think you don't understand what I been pointing out ever since. My evidence is already written in any manga tutorial book who teaches about ratio & proportion. And my proof is already drawn in manga pages of detective conan.

My Desktop is broken so can't use a photoshop to show you guys what I'm talking about. So see it with your own eyes online.

Well you can be sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial books you are talking about... This is 20 years old series.

I wonder how many mangaka actually care... Even if they do, seeing as how it has that weekly schedule and not even monthly manga do better anyway...
Here are few examples...
Gate->Gate takes 10 days to walk, 4 gates overall makes it 40 days and makes the Seireitei small country sized.
http://i1.minus.com/iQfUo5qu8vCm.png
560 meters?
Here's a different calc of the hill at the middle of that bigger scan.
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2583 ... h17519.jpg
This is supposed to be 660 meters. So the country sized place is smaller than part of the hill at the middle of it?

Another example...

Planet Namek
http://oi62.tinypic.com/28wf1w9.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/2m2ypvm.jpg

Planet Namek = 303 pixels
Spirit bomb = 52 pixels

Spirit bomb = 150 meters (generous)
Planet Namek = 874.038461538 meters



2nd: The planet shows clear curvature in just few hundred meters (you can see trees on those islands)

http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/24-0 ... d/2410.jpg
http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/24-0 ... d/2412.jpg

Yet it's stated to be bigger than the Earth.

More... If I scale from the Hachibi I can get huge star sized Naruto planet with country sized mountains, I can also get 1600km shinju from the ten tails... However if I scale it from the last weeks chapter I get it to be... 126.7 meters.



Also Goshos editor seems to be blind too so it must be hard to keep this up.
http://www.dctp.ws/V82-Reader/V82-2Read ... 63_014.png

[Yuki_JX]

Well you can be sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial books you are talking about... This is 20 years old series.

I wonder how many mangaka actually care... Even if they do, seeing as how it has that weekly schedule and not even monthly manga do better anyway...

Do you knew Gosho personally?? if not, how you can be so sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial in his whole life?? Mangaka needs a references to begin with it may vary from encyclopedia to a manga tutorial book. A beginner who wants to be a mangaka will pick manga tutorial as reference obviously. For veteran mangaka they learn their stuffs most by experiences, but there is no law stated that a veteran mangaka must not use/read/TOUCH a manga tutorial book, right? Manga Tutorial may serve as guide, a reminder, reference for all mangaka

Some Mangaka don't actually care and these carelessness is resulting/creating inconsistency in their work. But there also inconsistency created because of time pressure and poor research.

Most fans already knew about Dragon Ball and Bleach inconsistencies, which is both far to the genre of Conan which needs more consistency than a fantasy genre. And also I only mentioning/discussing the ratio & proportion of human body and how it can affect to the sex and age of the character FYI.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Well you can be sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial books you are talking about... This is 20 years old series.

I wonder how many mangaka actually care... Even if they do, seeing as how it has that weekly schedule and not even monthly manga do better anyway...

Do you knew Gosho personally?? if not, how you can be so sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial in his whole life?? Mangaka needs a references to begin with it may vary from encyclopedia to a manga tutorial book. A beginner who wants to be a mangaka will pick manga tutorial as reference obviously. For veteran mangaka they learn their stuffs most by experiences, but there is no law stated that a veteran mangaka must not use/read/TOUCH a manga tutorial book, right? Manga Tutorial may serve as guide, a reminder, reference for all mangaka

Some Mangaka don't actually care and these carelessness is resulting/creating inconsistency in their work. But there also inconsistency created because of time pressure and poor research.

Most fans already knew about Dragon Ball and Bleach inconsistencies, which is both far to the genre of Conan which is mystery who needs more consistency than the fantasy genre. And also I only mentioning/discussing the ratio & proportion of human body and how it can affect to the sex and age of the character FYI.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You seem to be treating these "rules" about proportion as if they were divinely ordained so Gosho must be following them. I said we should prove that's true before making assumptions by examining the art in a methodical and deliberate fashion. It's not something that difficult to do. All you have to do is pick a sample of sample of pictures and see which ones conform to the norms and which ones are exceptions.

Second Gosho has been noted to have some inconsistencies. He isn't perfect all the time.

Scar Akai's scar changed from panel to panel in the same case.

Spoiler: Scar Collage

Shinichi's bathroom door likes to reverse itself.

Spoiler: 812 handle on the right in the inside

http://dctp.ws/V77-Reader/V77-6Read/A10.html

Spoiler: 812 handle switches to the left

http://dctp.ws/V77-Reader/V77-6Read/A11.html

And Sonoko's shirt can jump through her arms.

Spoiler:

[ALAKTORN]

“And Sonoko's shirt can jump through her arms.”

That is so funny when you read Sonoko’s “Yes I can!” in the last panel. xD

Sorry for the pointless post.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

“And Sonoko's shirt can jump through her arms.”

That is so funny when you read Sonoko’s “Yes I can!” in the last panel. xD

Sorry for the pointless post.

It was even worse than normal because Gosho called attention to it one chapter earlier, and made the same mistake several times...

Spoiler: When Sonoko stands up

Spoiler: And then the straps disappear

Spoiler: and once more

Spoiler: MORE INVISIBLE STRAPS

Edit on another note, Yamamura has skinny shoulders. I'm guessing it is to make him look boyish and immature.

[Dyka_13]

Well you can be sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial books you are talking about... This is 20 years old series.

I wonder how many mangaka actually care... Even if they do, seeing as how it has that weekly schedule and not even monthly manga do better anyway...

Do you knew Gosho personally?? if not, how you can be so sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial in his whole life?? Mangaka needs a references to begin with it may vary from encyclopedia to a manga tutorial book. A beginner who wants to be a mangaka will pick manga tutorial as reference obviously. For veteran mangaka they learn their stuffs most by experiences, but there is no law stated that a veteran mangaka must not use/read/TOUCH a manga tutorial book, right? Manga Tutorial may serve as guide, a reminder, reference for all mangaka

Some Mangaka don't actually care and these carelessness is resulting/creating inconsistency in their work. But there also inconsistency created because of time pressure and poor research.

Most fans already knew about Dragon Ball and Bleach inconsistencies, which is both far to the genre of Conan which is mystery who needs more consistency than the fantasy genre. And also I only mentioning/discussing the ratio & proportion of human body and how it can affect to the sex and age of the character FYI.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You seem to be treating these "rules" about proportion as if they were divinely ordained so Gosho must be following them. I said we should prove that's true before making assumptions by examining the art in a methodical and deliberate fashion. It's not something that difficult to do. All you have to do is pick a sample of sample of pictures and see which ones conform to the norms and which ones are exceptions.

Second Gosho has been noted to have some inconsistencies. He isn't perfect all the time.

Scar Akai's scar changed from panel to panel in the same case.

Spoiler: Scar Collage

Shinichi's bathroom door likes to reverse itself.

Spoiler: 812 handle on the right in the inside

http://dctp.ws/V77-Reader/V77-6Read/A10.html

Spoiler: 812 handle switches to the left

http://dctp.ws/V77-Reader/V77-6Read/A11.html

And Sonoko's shirt can jump through her arms.

Spoiler:

I smell beef here

PS
dont mess around with Chek, shes lethal, loaded with experience and solid evidence :p

[ALAKTORN]

Spoiler: And then the straps disappear

Spoiler: and once more

Spoiler: MORE INVISIBLE STRAPS

That’s funny, I never noticed.

It looks better without the straps.

[k11chi]

Well you can be sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial books you are talking about... This is 20 years old series.

I wonder how many mangaka actually care... Even if they do, seeing as how it has that weekly schedule and not even monthly manga do better anyway...

Do you knew Gosho personally?? if not, how you can be so sure Gosho never even touched those manga tutorial in his whole life?? Mangaka needs a references to begin with it may vary from encyclopedia to a manga tutorial book. A beginner who wants to be a mangaka will pick manga tutorial as reference obviously. For veteran mangaka they learn their stuffs most by experiences, but there is no law stated that a veteran mangaka must not use/read/TOUCH a manga tutorial book, right? Manga Tutorial may serve as guide, a reminder, reference for all mangaka

Some Mangaka don't actually care and these carelessness is resulting/creating inconsistency in their work. But there also inconsistency created because of time pressure and poor research.

Most fans already knew about Dragon Ball and Bleach inconsistencies, which is both far to the genre of Conan which needs more consistency than a fantasy genre. And also I only mentioning/discussing the ratio & proportion of human body and how it can affect to the sex and age of the character FYI.

I really can't think of another series in the same genre that does it anywhere near the same way Conan does... Kindaichi has characters changing sizes all the time. One time Miyuki can be as long as Kindaichi and another time she's more than head shorter.

TGQ, Ayatsuri Sakon, Psychometrer Eiji etc