Why I think the Fake Death Theory has Plot Holes!!!

[User 4869]

What lol refer from the anime is mostly right, so I going to clear up the part he? was wrong just so we won't have to go back to manga.

1 I think an Organization who would blow up a hospital just to kill one of their agents who was captured wouldn't stop at giving a female member a full-body check.<<<

They never intend to blow up the hospital, the spam bombs to force the FBI to move and to find out where Kir was. Remember, they prepare bombs that are easily detected (loud noise) and easily disposed (large countdown numbers).


2 What Kor and Chek refer to about Manga VS Anime. I think they mean the bomb didn't count from 29 seconds. Rather, the number are never show until last 3 seconds. If Akai escape, he probably do it when Kir turn to gaze at incoming police car. When Kir plant the bomb, no matter how long it is going to active, Akai is gone before that.
http://dctp.ws/V59-Reader/V59-1Read/A4.html

[kuro_shiro]

Even if a body is burned, forensics can tell when death occurred. And since the BO know precisely when the death was "supposed" to happen, It would only make sense for them to suspect a double body stunt once they heard about the akai "look-alike". Then try to steal the related reports from the police HQ. It would be easier than to snipe the "fake" Akai at noon when he's coming out of a mall!! And by their admission, their boss is "very cautious, he'd break a stone bridge to make sure it's solid", so looking into the dead body's reports should have been their first action once they get suspicious. So, if Conan and Co. deduced that, using Rikumichi's body would be a major flaw to their plan.

well as it turns out the answer is NO ,THEY CAN'T DETERMINE THE TIME OF DEATH.

file 313.14 says that estimating time of death requires some conditions or more precisely if body is not in right conditions after death then TOD would be impossible to determine or satisfactory after noting the error range.

burnt bodies means TOD can't be estimated.

Moreover, If Vermouth saw Jodie weeping and then they saw a "scar" Akai, the BO would immediately suspect that he tricked everyone including the FBI and go all out like they always do to know what's happened. Which is why I think Conan and Co. would use a trick other than a double body to evade that.

in that case ,kir would have died in file 704. but that's not the case
why??
simply because BO knows that akai is not scar akai. since BO which doesn't take chances think it, then it would be true.(there is no freaking way they let scar akai go just because they could not prove akai=scar akai)

also since akai has nothing to do with scar akai as plausible theories dictate
then it is impossible for conan to imagine his actions or existance. hence his prsence was not taken into account when the akai was faking his death

As for USING Rikumichi's body, am I the only one who thinks that isn't right, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one! As for points 1&3, again...you say he CAN guess how its going to happen and easily predict the camera use, I say I JUST CAN'T see that being the case. There is a difference between "I know how you work!" and "I can read YOUR MIND!!". So I still say that it was very uncertain and reckless. So he must've had another trick up his sleeves.

exactly what was reckless??

if BO trusted kir, then it would have been better as well .  however the possibility of BO trying to use kir to kill akai could have been foreseen as BO is not that trusting. hence it would have been better to take plan for that as well ,so conan and akai planned it beforehand and discussed it with kir.

from kir's conversation ,it was more than obvious that it was a trap to kill akai.
hence it marked that plan would be enacted.

as far as kir's camera location goes, akai has already checked that gin was not in vicinity while from conan's experience ,he knew that gin would be near and watching entire drama through camera.(becuse they don't trust kir and no other wy exists.)

well experience can help in predictions and guesses can also help

6
I think an Organization who would blow up a hospital just to kill one of their agents who was captured wouldn't stop at giving a female member a full-body check. Also, what if Gin gave her a different type or model of gun? Just because she was in the CIA doesn't mean she can just have all types of bullets on her just in case and make them disappear magically!!

read file again .

and what will full body check do.
kir could have shot in air  as easily and by akai's mechanism for fake blood in cap would have made gin in thinking that bullet struck in head.(same goes for the lung shot)

7
I am looking forward to your response. But like I said, THINKING "Porsche 356A.....so that's how it is?" simple means he just realized something for the first time! So if he can predict everything ahead of time like Holmes, he wouldn't have said that for sure!

wrong it says "Porsche 356A.. to think you wold come this far to get me"

8
I only used the anime-version to make the point that we don't know if there was blood on his shirt or not because of the black and white colouring. So I am not saying he definitely is the same Akai, I'm just saying there is that possibility. And the anime production team have meeting regularly with Gosho so who knows? He might have told them to do that on purpose!

well it is either this or that not half this and half that.
as long as possibilities go, there is no end until gosho says .
for time being i am certain that we can go with that he is not the same akai

[GreatDetective]

5- How would Conan and Akai plan shooting a dead corpse in the lungs and set it up in a bombed car to fake akai's death. Gosho centres the Conan and Akai characters around morals and justice, For me doing that to a dead corpse, even if a former BO member, is unacceptable and something the Conan we him would never approve of.

I don't think so. Conan woldn't mind indirectly causing the corpse of a criminal being shot, if this means saving someone's life. Remember what happened in chapter 113?

Spoiler:

My explanation to these is that Akai really faked his death!! There is ample evidence and enough hints than Okyia is Akai. What I mean is that there must be ANOTHER plan or something that happened behind the scenes that he used to fake his death. In other words, I do believe Conan planned something with Akai and Kir but I simply don't believe or "buy" the fake death theory that I see people discussing on the forums and Cbox.

Even if there was another plan, it had to be almost identical to the one we are discussing. A burning body WAS found so, if we assume Akai didn't die, there must have been a switch between Akai and an arranged corpse, and the switch must have taken place before Kir set the bomb, otherwise the missing blood trails cannot be explained.

And by their admission, their boss is "very cautious, he'd break a stone bridge to make sure it's solid", so looking into the dead body's reports should have been their first action once they get suspicious.

Well, trying to steal something from the police is not the most cautious action in the world.

[sstimson]

You may or not care what I think, but as I have different views and only possible things that might have happened, or at best very vague proof

1) Your question does not really matter. Why? Well Akai knew when he was to meet Kir. It was clear to him as it should become clear to you  that that is when the trap would happened. He set up before  hand with two blood packs and a bulletproof vest.Let me add to this. Kir has willing gone back to the BO. If Akai got a call from her saying she want to come back, he would for sure know it is a trap. Next If Kir shows up, then he should know she be the  'killer' as otherwise they make their move when he arrives. I am of the opinion that Akai setup not body. Remember the same kind of thing happened to camel and he had no body. No, I think the body came later after being shot, by the as I call them too convenient Policemen.
2) Is a question of why bother. If Kir is there, Akai know she will be the BO eyes, remember earlier she had her watching broach. When the FBI brought her to the hospital, they would have found it. As for the rest of your question. Remember Akai I think learned a lot about Gin while undercover in the BO which includes how Gin thinks.It about setting the trap. It you set it in a way to make your target on edge, you will have a harder time. If, on the other hand you put the target at ease, then your success is much greater. Both Gin and Akai would know this. Beside in such a obvious trap, the BO might not know if the FBI is using their trap to trap them, and I am sure they would not take that chance. The Bo set the trap in a way so the only BO who could get trapped would be Kir.
3) You ask about the head blood. Well, It is very important misdirection. You see my theory is that head shot was only a glancing blow, in other words there be no hole, or blood. That pack makes it appear that the head shot was real.
4)Back to the body. Well again it was set up for the press. Again there was a police car who I feel just too convenient It just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I am almost sure that Car was CIA. They are the ones who set the scene. It like a magic trick. You do not know what happened in between.
5)Remember 4.We do not know if that was a body. We only know it looked like one. the CIA could set it up however they wanted and at the same time make sure only the 'right' information came out.
6) As I got it fake bullets do not matter. Remember the second shot was a grazing one, nothing more.
7) I know this is unlikely, but we might not be hearing all he was thinking at that time. There is a very suggestive pause between thoughts after all.
8) Again remember two things Kir is controlling the camera and could very easy block it. Also again the same thing happened to camel. You are being fooled by an illusion. At this time Akai is playing dead and can move. Also this scene is more for us then the BO after all once Kir sets the bomb, she would then turn her back to Akai and the BO would not see anything happening after that.

[GreatDetective]

I am of the opinion that Akai setup not body. Remember the same kind of thing happened to camel and he had no body. No, I think the body came later after being shot, by the as I call them too convenient Policemen.
[...]
4)Back to the body. Well again it was set up for the press. Again there was a police car who I feel just too convenient It just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I am almost sure that Car was CIA. They are the ones who set the scene. It like a magic trick. You do not know what happened in between.
5)Remember 4.We do not know if that was a body. We only know it looked like one. the CIA could set it up however they wanted and at the same time make sure only the 'right' information came out.

Even assuming that the "too convenient Policemen" were part of the plan, i don't think they had anything to do with the switching of the bodies.
1) When Kir plants the bomb, there are missing blood trails and his face was turned. The switch must already have taken place at this point, probably when Kir took the bomb (from her car?) preventing Gin and Vodka from seeing Akai's body.
2) Before the police officers come, we see a panel with the bomb near a body dressed as Akai, and the timer reads 0:03. If we say Akai is alive, then it can't be him, otherwise he couldn't have saved himself in just 3 seconds.
3) When the policemen come, there is already a burning body in the car.

[KainTheVampire]

Interesting theories *nod nod* Not really sure what I think but I hope he's alive

Personally, I'm still hoping Akai is dead, but I doubt that's the case, unfortunately.

What the... D:

[Wakarimashita]

Interesting theories *nod nod* Not really sure what I think but I hope he's alive

Personally, I'm still hoping Akai is dead, but I doubt that's the case, unfortunately.

What the... D:

The 'killing a badass character but actually keeping him alive' is a bit overused.

[lol]

Interesting theories *nod nod* Not really sure what I think but I hope he's alive

Personally, I'm still hoping Akai is dead, but I doubt that's the case, unfortunately.

What the... D:

The 'killing a badass character but actually keeping him alive' is a bit overused.

I want him to be alive to be honest, and I am pretty sure he is. But not if that theory is the one Gosho is going to go forward with.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I just want to start by responding to the 5 points under "Explain to me these:"

My explanation to these is that Akai really faked his death!! There is ample evidence and enough hints than Okiya is Akai. What I mean is that there must be ANOTHER plan or something that happened behind the scenes that he used to fake his death. In other words, I do believe Conan planned something with Akai and Kir but I simply don't believe or "buy" the fake death theory that I see people discussing on the forums and Cbox.

This explanation doesn't account for the missing blood trails or the movement of Akai's body. These are the most critical of the clues, and the primary evidence for the main formulation of the Akai faked his death theory.

Even if a body is burned, forensics can tell when death occurred.

In all previous Detective Conan cases, a significantly burned body made it impossible for the coroner to determine a time of death. Other methods, like testimony and cameras were used to estimate a TOD. That's a DC "case rule."

And since the BO know precisely when the death was "supposed" to happen, It would only make sense for them to suspect a double body stunt once they heard about the akai "look-alike". Then try to steal the related reports from the police HQ. .. And by their admission, their boss is "very cautious, he'd break a stone bridge to make sure it's solid", so looking into the dead body's reports should have been their first action once they get suspicious.

As I explained in my previous post, why would they? Breaking into police headquarters has risks of its own. Vermouth did it without anyone's knowledge, but that in no way implies the boss would find the risk benefit ratio good enough to simply verify a deed done before one of his most trusted agent's eyes. And in case you are wondering why he would authorize Bourbon to do his thing, but not a break in to the police station, the boss does need to satisfy his people to keep them from running around on their own too much. Bourbon is obsessed with Akai, so the best way to keep Bourbon from doing anything incredibly stupid on his own is to let him come up with a reasonable plan under the watchful eye of a more senior member (Vermouth). That's one way to be a cautious and wise leader.

So, if Conan and Co. deduced that, using Rikumichi's body would be a major flaw to their plan...  It would be easier than to snipe the "fake" Akai at noon when he's coming out of a mall!! ... Moreover, If Vermouth saw Jodie weeping and then they saw a "scar" Akai, the BO would immediately suspect that he tricked everyone including the FBI and go all out like they always do to know what's happened. Which is why I think Conan and Co. would use a trick other than a double body to evade that. As for USING Rikumichi's body, am I the only one who thinks that isn't right, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!

I think I explained why it made sense to use Rikumichi's body above and in the original theory, so I'm going to skip a recap.

I have no idea what the logic is here. Regarding Scar Akai, in red shirts, Gin heard that Akai was supposedly alive and was confused and suspicious. Then he figured out Bourbon was dressed as Akai, so he let Kir live because everything made sense again and Akai really wasn't alive. I'm kind of confused by what your point is.  Can you explain this?

As for points 1&3, again...you say he CAN guess how its going to happen and easily predict the camera use, I say I JUST CAN'T see that being the case. There is a difference between "I know how you work!" and "I can read YOUR MIND!!". So I still say that it was very uncertain and reckless. So he must've had another trick up his sleeves.

If you read my explanation carefully, I said the plan had a reasonable but not guaranteed chance of succeeding. If the plan looked like it would fail, Kir would have really killed Akai. Conan, Akai, and Kir can can predict a good deal of the environment around the assassination for reasons explained earlier.

I think an Organization who would blow up a hospital just to kill one of their agents who was captured wouldn't stop at giving a female member a full-body check. Also, what if Gin gave her a different type or model of gun? Just because she was in the CIA doesn't mean she can just have all types of bullets on her just in case and make them disappear magically!!

You only need two blank cartridges of the most common "normal caliber" pistol sizes. No more, no less. That's not a lot assuming Kir knows the range of handguns she might receive (there are reasonable size and power constraints to expect - something she can handle well, nothing weird and hard to get a hold of). And like I said before, they aren't sure she isn't loyal, and the Organization has to balance its actions so it doesn't piss off its agents into defecting especially if they are already under stress and suspicion. If they had even slightly reasonable suspicion Kir was a traitor, they would have just killed her. Giving her an option to take a loyalty test shows that even the super cautious boss felt this was borderline.

I only used the anime-version to make the point that we don't know if there was blood on his shirt or not because of the black and white colouring.

Like I said, the anime is fail. They botch the missing blood trails. I won't accept any evidence based on the anime version of this scene because of that, and no one else with sense should either.

7a I did the other part with Kir's line already, so here is Akai's line.
I have down as my translation "So that is how it is..." We know Gosho saw fit to change this line between the Shounen Sunday version "To think you came this far to get me..." and the published volume version. What I notice first is that this line change is a lot more Akai's fake death friendly. He knew how far Gin would go to get him as he was faking his death with Gin's likely actions mind. This new version of the line makes Akai's line much more ambiguous. He could merely be acknowledging that his, Conan's, and Kir's predictions were spot on by thinking to himself "so that is how it is..." In any case, Gosho loves vague lines that can have multiple meanings, so unless all possible interpretations of the line contradict a theory (not the case for this one) there is no real value in them.

[sstimson]

I am of the opinion that Akai setup not body. Remember the same kind of thing happened to camel and he had no body. No, I think the body came later after being shot, by the as I call them too convenient Policemen.
[...]
4)Back to the body. Well again it was set up for the press. Again there was a police car who I feel just too convenient It just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I am almost sure that Car was CIA. They are the ones who set the scene. It like a magic trick. You do not know what happened in between.
5)Remember 4.We do not know if that was a body. We only know it looked like one. the CIA could set it up however they wanted and at the same time make sure only the 'right' information came out.

Even assuming that the "too convenient Policemen" were part of the plan, i don't think they had anything to do with the switching of the bodies.
1) When Kir plants the bomb, there are missing blood trails and his face was turned. The switch must already have taken place at this point, probably when Kir took the bomb (from her car?) preventing Gin and Vodka from seeing Akai's body.
2) Before the police officers come, we see a panel with the bomb near a body dressed as Akai, and the timer reads 0:03. If we say Akai is alive, then it can't be him, otherwise he couldn't have saved himself in just 3 seconds.
3) When the policemen come, there is already a burning body in the car

1) Yes It is a bomb, but what kind of bomb. I understand you think you know what it is by how it acts and looks. Again I will tell you, that you are falling for the illusion. Remember the demon dog case.Something that looked like it was on fire and burning was in fact NOT. Same here. Again no reason to switch bodies until just before the press come. You are seeing I think "smoke and mirrors" You can make things look horrible with out hurting them at all.
2) See #1. Also he could easy save himself even in 3 seconds. What if the bomb was only a smoke bomb and nothing more?
3) There is a burning car, but no necessarily a body. All you might see is a presetup clothes set up to burn at a set trigger. Try to see pass the illusion.
I just remember another case. The culprit set themselves on fire and got away unharmed. He did this with a wetsuit. Again see something is not the same as that for sure happening. The case with the burning culprit was with Heiji and Episode 263 Toyotomi's Castle

[Partsu]

I think Kir needed only one blank...if Akai used bulletproof vest...
otherwise I think
Chek is most likely right.
sstimson's theory has few holes in it but otherwise it could be right too...you never know until gosho flatout tells/shows us.
lol... you can't be serious...
BUT THEN AGAIN
I'm not very clever (with all these personalities taking space in my head)
so I should probably just shut up and see what more clever minds come up with...

[kuro_shiro]

it just hit me

the bomb placed by kir is near the head. so when exploded it will blast away the skull or atleast destroy it .


hence one strong point which said that "report will say that bullet was fired from side" is disproved here.

[GreatDetective]

I am of the opinion that Akai setup not body. Remember the same kind of thing happened to camel and he had no body. No, I think the body came later after being shot, by the as I call them too convenient Policemen.
[...]
4)Back to the body. Well again it was set up for the press. Again there was a police car who I feel just too convenient It just happened to be in the right place at the right time. I am almost sure that Car was CIA. They are the ones who set the scene. It like a magic trick. You do not know what happened in between.
5)Remember 4.We do not know if that was a body. We only know it looked like one. the CIA could set it up however they wanted and at the same time make sure only the 'right' information came out.

Even assuming that the "too convenient Policemen" were part of the plan, i don't think they had anything to do with the switching of the bodies.
1) When Kir plants the bomb, there are missing blood trails and his face was turned. The switch must already have taken place at this point, probably when Kir took the bomb (from her car?) preventing Gin and Vodka from seeing Akai's body.
2) Before the police officers come, we see a panel with the bomb near a body dressed as Akai, and the timer reads 0:03. If we say Akai is alive, then it can't be him, otherwise he couldn't have saved himself in just 3 seconds.
3) When the policemen come, there is already a burning body in the car

1) Yes It is a bomb, but what kind of bomb. I understand you think you know what it is by how it acts and looks. Again I will tell you, that you are falling for the illusion. Remember the demon dog case.Something that looked like it was on fire and burning was in fact NOT. Same here. Again no reason to switch bodies until just before the press come. You are seeing I think "smoke and mirrors" You can make things look horrible with out hurting them at all.
2) See #1. Also he could easy save himself even in 3 seconds. What if the bomb was only a smoke bomb and nothing more?
3) There is a burning car, but no necessarily a body. All you might see is a presetup clothes set up to burn at a set trigger. Try to see pass the illusion.
I just remember another case. The culprit set themselves on fire and got away unharmed. He did this with a wetsuit. Again see something is not the same as that for sure happening. The case with the burning culprit was with Heiji and Episode 263 Toyotomi's Castle

1) The bomb is a real bomb, Gin gave it to Kir. We only saw Gin giving a gun to Kir, but it is obvious it was him to gave her the bomb later.
2) Again, it isn't a smoke bomb, so Akai could not have save himself in 3 seconds. The switch have already taken place by this point.
3) See #1 and 2. You can clearly see it is not just presetup clothes, it is either a mannequine or a body, but the first option doesn't make sense. The bomb is near the body and the timer reads 0:03, so that body has to be Rikumichi Kusuda.

[Lawyer]

Just realised that the YouTube links does not work.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Just realised that the YouTube links does not work.

You don't need the video to understand lol's points.

For (7), lol wrote the lines below the video he wanted to point out.

For (8), it does not matter because the manga and the anime are drawn differently at this point, and the manga takes first priority because the anime makes mistakes.