Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
Post Reply
User avatar
Chekhov MacGuffin
Community Scholar
BAGA BGEGD EDBDEG A

Posts:
2684

Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

The context is that I'm having a debate with an IP related the the Boss of the Black Organization article, and I need to be sure I have my facts straight first.

Argument that the boss's number is an email address (copied from talk page).
I was the IP who did the edit, and I think we have enough proof to say it is an e-mail address rather than a phone number (in Japan each mobile phone have an e-mail address associated to it, and they use e-mail rather than SMS to send messages).

•In file 434 Vermouth receives an e-mail from the boss and replies with another e-mail, not by calling him/her (even though she whispers "Ok, boss" after reading the message): this is the first time Conan hears Nanatsu no Ko, even though he doesn't recognize it right away; Conan even tells Vermouth that if it will look like his heart stopped then the address to which she just sent the e-mail will be found out.
•In file 439 Conan thinks that if he had that address he could find out the boss' identity.
•In file 470 Conan confirms that Vermouth sent an e-email, and Agasa wonders if the numbers dialed are familiar to Conan because they contain letters often used by Conan in his messages: you can't use letters in phone numbers but you can in e-mail; it's true that Conan here search for the telephone numbering plan of Tottori, but only because he found out that the sound of the first four numbers used to make a phone call to someone who lives in Tottori (0858) is similar to the beginning of the sound of the boss' e-mail address (which, as we find later, starts with #969, whose sound is similar to 0858).
•In file 475 Conan confirms again that what Vermouth sent was an e-email and discovers that #969#6261 is the boss' e-mail address. A note by Gosho Aoyama says that in real life e-mail addresses can't have "#", but he decided that in the Conanverse they can to avoid pranks; of course if this was a phone number he would have done things differently, using a real telephone numbering plan (like 0858 for Tottori) and only using symbols that can't be used in the second part of the number to avoid pranks, but since e-mail addresses are (unlike phone numbers) totally unrelated from from where you live it doesn't matter where the impossible symbols are positioned in the number. Still in file 475, Agasa asks Conan if he sent an e-mail to the boss, which he denies; he sais that he wants Takagi to investigate that address, while Ai thinks the address is like Pandora's box.
•In file 479, Conan is about to write an e-mail: we can read the address (#969#6261, which by mistake became #696#6261 in the anime) but he hasn't started yet writing it, and he decides not to do so.
•In file 499, Conan sees Yoko calling someone, and thinks of the fact that now everytime he sees someone using a cell phone he is reminded of Vermouth and the boss' e-mail address, and also thinks of Ai saying the address is like Pandora's box. At the end of that file and the beginning of file 500 Conan hears Rena dialing Nanatsu no Ko and then she is called by Gin: she informs Gin that she only had a small problem which she just informed Anokata via e-mail. •Still in file 500, Ai asks Conan if he is sure that Rena is from the BO, and Conan answers that she sent an e-mail to their boss an then received a phone call from Gin.
•In file 595, Ran says Esuke told her he heard someone (Kusuda) dial an e-email address that sounded like Nanatsu no Ko. Eisuke mistook Kusuda for a colleague of his father because Ethan was a mole inside the BO, and thus sent various e-mail to an address that sounded like Nanatsu no Ko; Eisuke asked what was this sound, and Ethan answered he was sending an e-mail to "his boss" (the BO boss).
•In file 605 James says that it is better if Eisuke gets into the witness protection program since he knows the BO boss' mail address. --87.8.35.181 12:11, 12 December 2014 (CET)

The Italian manga sometimes uses "indirizzo di posta elettronica" ("e-mail address"), while other times uses "SMS", and I believe the former is correct and the latter is an imprecision; on the other hand, "numero di telefono" ("phone number") is never used. The Italian Wikipedia article about phones in Japan, which seems more complete on this point compared to the English Wikipedia, says (my translation) "One of the main features of Japanese cell phones is the constant use of e-mail on the consumer's part, to the detriment of SMS and in some cases even of the classic calls, especially in public places. An e-mail address is associated with each cell phone at the time of subscription to a telephone company: this operation requires a certificate of residence, an account in a Japanese bank or with a local credit card, an employment contract or the presence of a warrantor of Japanese nationality, other the the reguar passport; these requirement are similar to what is required for the stipulation of a lease. The concept of e-mail in Japan is mainly associated with cell phones, to the point that some young Japanese ignore the possibility of sending e-mail through a PC". So, we can conclude that Japanese use e-mail like we use SMS (explaining why some manga translations use "SMS" instead of "e-mail") but the phone number and the mail address are actually two different numbers: for example in file 340 Ran sends an e-mail to Shinichi using her cell phone, but in file 426 she complains about not having Shinichi's phone number because when he calls her he hides his number; she will not get his number until file 483. According to Agasa, letters can be used for e-mail addresses in Japan, but this doesn't prevent numbers to be used, I think. Plus, I don't see how Gosho could have intended #969#6261 to be a phone number, since phone numbers start with a telephone numbering plan, which "#969" is not: one thing is to start a number with a real numbering plan and then using impossible symbols like "#" to avoid pranks, another thing is using a non-existent numbering plan. You said "Nor do I think it is a coincidence that the length of the number is the exact length of a Japanese phone number (9 digits for a geographic number)", but if this is the case then Conan should have know right away that the number has 9 digits, while in file 470 he tells Agasa that the number has 8 or 9 digits. In conclusion, I think that if we write that #969#6261 is the boss' phone number we will confuse the reader, because that number has only been used to send messages to the boss, not to call him/her, and this is an important point: if Vermouth called the boss instead of sending a message in file 434, then Conan would have heard the boss' voice and would know al least his/her gender.
Argument that the number is a phone number
I think the problem I'm hearing from others I asked at the DCTP spoiler box is that the argument it is an email overly relies on the literal translation rather than looking at how the number is actually being used.
“ @Chek: The problem with calling it an e-mail address is that, even in Japan, e-mail addresses take the form of something@something.sth, like the rest of the world, while the boss' address is just numbers (with the # just there to ensure it's not real). If we then add in the fact that, as jimmy said, text messages (via phone) are called 'mail' in Japan, I'd call the number we have a phone number. Calling it an e-mail address certainly makes little sense. „

— Fujiwara in the spoiler cbox
The best evidence about how the address is actually being used suggests that it is a phone number that is being used for texting. You can't dial an email with a 9 digit keypad to make the nanatsu no ko sound (no .s or @s). Nor do I think it is a coincidence that the length of the number is the exact length of a Japanese phone number (9 digits for a geographic number), and has no @s. Promotional offers in Japan related to Conan (I recall one for M13) had people dial the boss's phone number to hear a pre-recorded message - which suggests that it is a phone number not an email. Also keep in mind the cellphone arc took place way back in 2003/2004, which was pretty early in the smartphone tech cycle.

Other mangas (forget which ones) use the convention # to replace phone numbers to make them unworkable. # is used because the pound sign is on a phone.
I will add to my side at least as I think of new stuff and keep the other party's arguments updated.
User avatar
b8ajenai
'lr;emkjkg

Posts:
83

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by b8ajenai »

Is the information we're provided any different if it's a mail address or a phone number? Like would one make it any easier to determine who the boss is? I guess if it's just a mail address, you would need to go through the phone company to find out what number it's attached to, if you wanted to get the area code of the number. And if you're doing that, why don't you just ask the phone company who owns that mail address (or number), rather than going that extra step.

So the "extra" info we'd get if it is a number is the area code. But, I'm not sure how helpful that is, unless Japan has some weird law where you must get a new number if you move. The Organization seems pretty capable to me, I think if they wanted they could get a phone from anywhere (probably under a fake name, so going to the phone company would probably only serve to alert the Organization that someone is looking for them).

As for it being a mail address, is it safe to assume that the operatives would have the Boss's email saved in their phone? Then they could start typing that Nanatsu no Ko until it autocompletes the address, explaining why there's no email symbols in the address. (I don't remember if there's any time where we explicitly see a message to/from the boss that doesn't have any email symbols.)


I actually have a somewhat related question- since this arc happened before phones had full keypads on them, do we know what text could be written if someone typed that in Japanese phone? If it's a mail address, then that might be some hint, right?
Image
User avatar
red.orchid

Posts:
1150

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by red.orchid »

This is definitely a very interesting matter which I've been wondering about for a very long time. Glad you guys brought it up for discussion!
Secret Santa 2015
Spoiler:
Image
Secret Santa 2016
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
Chekhov MacGuffin
Community Scholar
BAGA BGEGD EDBDEG A

Posts:
2684

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

It has to do with the implications. Until recently, you couldn't voice call with an email. If the boss was using an email instead of a phone number, then members would have to text him - there would be no voice call option. While "phone number boss" shows a preference for texts over voice calls which might imply there is a reason he doesn't want to be heard, you can't make that assumption with "email boss"; he could very well be using voice calls in certain situations, it's just that we haven't run across any of those situations yet. Also whether it is an email or a phone number will change the sorts of places where it is likely to be listed in the background and how the boss might be tracked down.

I'm collecting evidence still (slowly, life has been busy) because I don't want to get into a fight over wiki articles without building my case first, but I would appreciate any scenes that anyone can recollect that might shed light on this situation, like times when other characters definitely using texts between phone numbers were talking about it - (I want to see if the terms used are the same).

I had no idea that in other languages translators were using "email" instead of "phone number" to refer to the boss's contact info. The official English (Viz) is using phone number I think.
User avatar
usotsuki

Posts:
381

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by usotsuki »

Viz refers to it as an e-mail address.
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke
User avatar
b8ajenai
'lr;emkjkg

Posts:
83

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by b8ajenai »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Argument that the number is a phone number
Also keep in mind the cellphone arc took place way back in 2003/2004, which was pretty early in the smartphone tech cycle.
To debunk that one. The J-Phone came out in 2000 which could send pictures over email, so 2003/2004 is definitely not too early in the Japanese cell phone tech cycle for an email address on phone.


b8ajenai wrote:I actually have a somewhat related question- since this arc happened before phones had full keypads on them, do we know what text could be written if someone typed that in Japanese phone? If it's a mail address, then that might be some hint, right?
Mostly unrelated, but I re-watched episode 400 to get all the things they call the numbers, and interestingly enough, #969#6261, spells "Black, James Roy". At least according to Google Translate (apparently you don't need the first syllable of James). So, either total nonsense, or James Black really is the boss of the James Black's Super Evil Crime Gang (probably the BO's real name)!!
Image
User avatar
jimmy_kud0_tv2

Posts:
712

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by jimmy_kud0_tv2 »

b8ajenai wrote: and interestingly enough, #969#6261, spells "Black, James Roy".
Can you further explain this one ?
how did you end up with more letters than there are numbers?
I hope that I can find someway to contribute to the community even if it's just random crack theories and looking things up for people who can't find the information they need.
ImageImage
User avatar
b8ajenai
'lr;emkjkg

Posts:
83

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by b8ajenai »

jimmy_kud0_tv2 wrote:
b8ajenai wrote: and interestingly enough, #969#6261, spells "Black, James Roy".
Can you further explain this one ?
how did you end up with more letters than there are numbers?
# 9 6 9 # 6 2 6 1
= # ku ro ku # mu zu ro i
= # kuroku # muzu roi
= # 黒く # むず ろい
= # Black # James Roy

According to Google Translate, you don't need the "jei" sound in "jeimuzu" to get "James", you just need the "muzu" part.
Image
User avatar
unclesporkums
The one you'd never suspect...

Posts:
387
Contact:

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by unclesporkums »

Very interesting. Although, the head of the Org wouldn't work so hard at attempts to ruin his own syndicate, so it really doesn't make much sense.
"Let's decide once and for all, Vermouth! No more hide-and-seek!!" - Conan Edogawa

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/unclesporkums?feature=mhee
Deviantart: http://drmuttonchops3.deviantart.com/
Tumblr: http://unclesporkums.tumblr.com/
User avatar
b8ajenai
'lr;emkjkg

Posts:
83

Re: Is the Boss's number a phone number or an email address?

Post by b8ajenai »

unclesporkums wrote:Very interesting. Although, the head of the Org wouldn't work so hard at attempts to ruin his own syndicate, so it really doesn't make much sense.
Sorry this is kind of off-topic, but I'm not convinced James Black is trying to take down the Black Organization.

I rewatched Black Impact and Clash of Red and Black recently, and either James Black is really terrible at his job or he's not trying to take down the Black Organization. What I got from those is that Black can't control Akai (Black Impact: Akai ignores orders to chase Vermouth and instead stakes out the Mouri Detective Agency. Clash of Red and Black: Akai orchestrates his own plan right under James's nose).

In fact, in Clash of Red and Black, James tries to make decisions that are beneficial to the Black Organization. When the bomb flowers are delivered to James, he tries to pass them off to Akai (instead of some unnamed FBI agent, which would be the smart thing). If Akai actually followed James's orders, that would have had two possible outcomes: 1) Akai is killed by the bomb, 2) Akai is gone during the time that he's needed most, since he's clearly the best FBI agent. I suppose you could argue that at that time the most important thing was to get that bomb out of there, but everyone knew it was obviously just a decoy to get (some of) them to leave the hospital. Maybe Akai is the most familiar with the area, but the other FBI agents who have been guarding the hospital (not new guys like Andre Camel) should be pretty familiar with the place, considering how Andre hadn't been in Japan for years but still remembered pretty much everything about the area (and his past is that he's a bad agent, yet he disposes the bomb perfectly).
Image
Post Reply