What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
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What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
obviously spoilers unless you've seen up to around episode 783 or so!
This is going to be less precise and less well thought out as my Ran rant but I feel like I've thought about this enough to make a worthwhile thread about this. I hopefully won't use these sort of topics exclusively to complain about every little thing because I do feel the series is at the very least way better than it could've been for a series that's been ongoing since 1994 (96 for the anime).
So while I won't say the Bourbon arc was hated or anything, we are clearly far away from the peaks of the series, only going back to that high standard once in a while. Now I'm worried this might be a bit obvious why but I'll go through it anyway. Feel free to add your own ideas!
-It was too long. Let's get the obvious one out of the way. It's pretty much the same regardless of whether I use the anime or manga but since I follow the anime, that's what I'll use. In the anime, the Bourbon arc started in the middle of 2008 and ended in the middle of 2015. That's a story arc that lasted for SEVEN GOD DAMN YEARS. Seven years for a single story arc, even one that had as many sections to it as this one (and we'll get to that) is crazy. Now this is not inherently bad if it keeps moving forward but....
-It took breaks. Now obviously while they've tried to avoid this at points in recent years (which to me as a blatant apology) there was a literal year and a half where THE PLOT WAS IGNORED. MID STORY ARC. The last time I saw such a blatant ignoring the plot it was because of Naruto's infamous 80 episodes of filler before the timeskip and that ALMOST KILLED THE ANIME. Something similar actually did kill Rurouni Kenshin's anime. It is just horrendous pacing in a series that isn't exactly quick paced in the first place, but this was insane. The fact that Gosho spent even a single chapter on Chiba's meaningless love story instead is still the worst thing Gosho has ever done. Worse than Haibara being taught a lesson by static electricity. Worse than Ran being willing to die because a fortune said a boy wouldn't like her otherwise. I don't say that lightly. Also, they were really stretching the definition of "plot development" with some of those Vermouth and Bourbon scenes for a while. Like mainly the ones before Makoto's last appearances.
-It had to be rewritten. I maintain (as mostly a positive point) that the second half of the Bourbon arc was way different than what was originally going to happen. The entire thing felt like it was answering critiques about the arc before that point and the large gap between Scar Akai's first two appearances and Sera's first appearance really feels like was the time Gosho spent to rewrite parts of this story arc. Obviously this is just guessing but it is the best and most logical explanation for why it would take so long to go back to a story arc when nothing like that level of a gap without even any worthwhile acknowledgment about the main story elements has happened before. Even the CELL PHONE ARC at least had some story elements and didn't happen in the middle of a story arc. Beyond that, I also wouldn't be shocked if Amuro wasn't originally going to be Bourbon. Or at least the same Bourbon character that was given to us. I feel a real disconnect between the 2008-2010 Bourbon arc and the 2012-2015 Bourbon arc (though unfortunately not enough for that year long gap to not be deeply annoying). Half of Sera's stuff isn't even relevant.
-The climax was basically split in half and had a large gap between them. The Mystery Train was essentially the climax of the Bourbon arc, finally revealing the identities of these characters. Which was still the best move and I was incredibly excited about Bourbon figuring out about Conan's secret (at least in some way) by the next case. I obviously knew it wouldn't lead to Conan being in any long term serious danger with his identity but it was still fun. But it feels like the Amuro's reveal 2 years later should've happened shortly after that case (or at least in less than a year). If anything, considering most of Sera's appearances after the Mystery Train are focused on that weird kid she is with, it would've flowed way better to have those cases all right after the real end of the Bourbon arc since I think the literal next case after the final Okiya/Amuro reveal stuff had story stuff with Sera and the kid. But seriously, imagine if the post-hospital Clash of Red and Black stuff happened around 2 years after the hospital section. Wouldn't that be a bit much? It's just weird pacing.
-Gundam naming scheme is dumb. I told my Gundam friend who has literally never seen this series and just by saying the characters' names he guessed their relationship. If I told him any basic information about these characters, he'd know everything. This is actually true.
-Too slow. This is something I've learned to accept about the series. It is simply a better series if you don't watch on a week to week basis. Even as someone with a ton of patience for this type of series, it's not the amount of episode it takes for a storyline to go anywhere. It's the amount of time you have to wait when you're caught up. You didn't wait 3+ years to watch the Vermouth arc to finish, you probably went through that entire story arc in a few months at most (and I know from experience it can be quicker than that!). But yeah, the simple reality is having a single story arc that does so little to the status quo yet lasts 7 whole years is entirely ridiculous even for this series.
-BOURBON IS A SPY. SEVEN YEARS. FOR KIR 2. WHAT. HOW DO I VILLAIN
I will say though that despite all these issues, I liked the Bourbon arc. It wasn't as good as the Vermouth arc certainly but it still had a lot of things I like about this stuff. Have a compelling and threatening mystery character do a thing that intrigues and you will probably keep me invested forever. At least in this series. Furthermore all three mystery characters are awesome. All the events were fun when they actually had a plot going on, regardless of any frustrations of when they happened or whether it was better for them to happen. But I do hope these mistakes don't continue going forward. I'm somewhat optimistic because I feel like Gosho is at least aware of his series' problems and complaints.
This is going to be less precise and less well thought out as my Ran rant but I feel like I've thought about this enough to make a worthwhile thread about this. I hopefully won't use these sort of topics exclusively to complain about every little thing because I do feel the series is at the very least way better than it could've been for a series that's been ongoing since 1994 (96 for the anime).
So while I won't say the Bourbon arc was hated or anything, we are clearly far away from the peaks of the series, only going back to that high standard once in a while. Now I'm worried this might be a bit obvious why but I'll go through it anyway. Feel free to add your own ideas!
-It was too long. Let's get the obvious one out of the way. It's pretty much the same regardless of whether I use the anime or manga but since I follow the anime, that's what I'll use. In the anime, the Bourbon arc started in the middle of 2008 and ended in the middle of 2015. That's a story arc that lasted for SEVEN GOD DAMN YEARS. Seven years for a single story arc, even one that had as many sections to it as this one (and we'll get to that) is crazy. Now this is not inherently bad if it keeps moving forward but....
-It took breaks. Now obviously while they've tried to avoid this at points in recent years (which to me as a blatant apology) there was a literal year and a half where THE PLOT WAS IGNORED. MID STORY ARC. The last time I saw such a blatant ignoring the plot it was because of Naruto's infamous 80 episodes of filler before the timeskip and that ALMOST KILLED THE ANIME. Something similar actually did kill Rurouni Kenshin's anime. It is just horrendous pacing in a series that isn't exactly quick paced in the first place, but this was insane. The fact that Gosho spent even a single chapter on Chiba's meaningless love story instead is still the worst thing Gosho has ever done. Worse than Haibara being taught a lesson by static electricity. Worse than Ran being willing to die because a fortune said a boy wouldn't like her otherwise. I don't say that lightly. Also, they were really stretching the definition of "plot development" with some of those Vermouth and Bourbon scenes for a while. Like mainly the ones before Makoto's last appearances.
-It had to be rewritten. I maintain (as mostly a positive point) that the second half of the Bourbon arc was way different than what was originally going to happen. The entire thing felt like it was answering critiques about the arc before that point and the large gap between Scar Akai's first two appearances and Sera's first appearance really feels like was the time Gosho spent to rewrite parts of this story arc. Obviously this is just guessing but it is the best and most logical explanation for why it would take so long to go back to a story arc when nothing like that level of a gap without even any worthwhile acknowledgment about the main story elements has happened before. Even the CELL PHONE ARC at least had some story elements and didn't happen in the middle of a story arc. Beyond that, I also wouldn't be shocked if Amuro wasn't originally going to be Bourbon. Or at least the same Bourbon character that was given to us. I feel a real disconnect between the 2008-2010 Bourbon arc and the 2012-2015 Bourbon arc (though unfortunately not enough for that year long gap to not be deeply annoying). Half of Sera's stuff isn't even relevant.
-The climax was basically split in half and had a large gap between them. The Mystery Train was essentially the climax of the Bourbon arc, finally revealing the identities of these characters. Which was still the best move and I was incredibly excited about Bourbon figuring out about Conan's secret (at least in some way) by the next case. I obviously knew it wouldn't lead to Conan being in any long term serious danger with his identity but it was still fun. But it feels like the Amuro's reveal 2 years later should've happened shortly after that case (or at least in less than a year). If anything, considering most of Sera's appearances after the Mystery Train are focused on that weird kid she is with, it would've flowed way better to have those cases all right after the real end of the Bourbon arc since I think the literal next case after the final Okiya/Amuro reveal stuff had story stuff with Sera and the kid. But seriously, imagine if the post-hospital Clash of Red and Black stuff happened around 2 years after the hospital section. Wouldn't that be a bit much? It's just weird pacing.
-Gundam naming scheme is dumb. I told my Gundam friend who has literally never seen this series and just by saying the characters' names he guessed their relationship. If I told him any basic information about these characters, he'd know everything. This is actually true.
-Too slow. This is something I've learned to accept about the series. It is simply a better series if you don't watch on a week to week basis. Even as someone with a ton of patience for this type of series, it's not the amount of episode it takes for a storyline to go anywhere. It's the amount of time you have to wait when you're caught up. You didn't wait 3+ years to watch the Vermouth arc to finish, you probably went through that entire story arc in a few months at most (and I know from experience it can be quicker than that!). But yeah, the simple reality is having a single story arc that does so little to the status quo yet lasts 7 whole years is entirely ridiculous even for this series.
-BOURBON IS A SPY. SEVEN YEARS. FOR KIR 2. WHAT. HOW DO I VILLAIN
I will say though that despite all these issues, I liked the Bourbon arc. It wasn't as good as the Vermouth arc certainly but it still had a lot of things I like about this stuff. Have a compelling and threatening mystery character do a thing that intrigues and you will probably keep me invested forever. At least in this series. Furthermore all three mystery characters are awesome. All the events were fun when they actually had a plot going on, regardless of any frustrations of when they happened or whether it was better for them to happen. But I do hope these mistakes don't continue going forward. I'm somewhat optimistic because I feel like Gosho is at least aware of his series' problems and complaints.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
I feel you, like many others do. I admit I even forgot Bourbon's existence until Rei's first appearance since I never suspected Subaru is Bourbon and Masumi is just too obviously Akai's sister
)
Bourbon was first mentioned in Vol.60, right about that time Subaru appeared. But Masumi just came in with Vol. 73, and Rei with Vol.75. After thirteen and FIFTEEN vols. Then the two of them weirdly continuously involved with the protagonists and Bourbon's identity was revealed just 3 vols after he actually appeared. I felt like I just lost my step and fell.
(The Vermouth arc also took 16 vols from 26 to 42 but it was breathtaking (I really didn't know who is who at that time) so I didn't mind
) )
And then after 7 more vols he turned out to be a spy. Yes, Rei is my favourite character so I don't want him to die at the end of the series but another spy just turns off my interest. Are there any more spies from MI6 or Interpol, Mr. Aoyama?
I didn't care about the Scar Akai sh*t since he just appeared from time to time (about 3 times in 15 vols right?), flied around the Akai-related characters for a while, then got buried in the unending plot-unrelated stuff.
The whole arc made me feel like I was walking lazily for a whole day then suddenly being dragged away by an airplane then thrown over a cliff .__.
Bourbon was first mentioned in Vol.60, right about that time Subaru appeared. But Masumi just came in with Vol. 73, and Rei with Vol.75. After thirteen and FIFTEEN vols. Then the two of them weirdly continuously involved with the protagonists and Bourbon's identity was revealed just 3 vols after he actually appeared. I felt like I just lost my step and fell.
(The Vermouth arc also took 16 vols from 26 to 42 but it was breathtaking (I really didn't know who is who at that time) so I didn't mind
And then after 7 more vols he turned out to be a spy. Yes, Rei is my favourite character so I don't want him to die at the end of the series but another spy just turns off my interest. Are there any more spies from MI6 or Interpol, Mr. Aoyama?
I didn't care about the Scar Akai sh*t since he just appeared from time to time (about 3 times in 15 vols right?), flied around the Akai-related characters for a while, then got buried in the unending plot-unrelated stuff.
The whole arc made me feel like I was walking lazily for a whole day then suddenly being dragged away by an airplane then thrown over a cliff .__.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
One of my problems re: Bourbon arc was that it didn't feel like Conan and co. was in any danger AT ALL, unlike previous BO arcs. Sure the Mystery Train was exciting, but "well, Conan prolly has a plan or two up his sleeve, and even though it seems they have zero chance of escape they'll be protected by plot armor and awesome cameos". While I expected that of course, it could've helped the arc a lot if it maintained a sense of looming threat even as the plot takes a backseat from filler cases (as in Clash of Red and Black). At least just to remind the audience that SOMETHING IS GOING ON even though for now we have an unnecessary love story about insignificant but funny characters.
(I dunno, Scar-Akai, Amuro, and Sera just weren't scary enough. I think you were even supposed to like the latter two even before the reveal. Unlike Vermouth—I like her precisely because I feel like her middle name is danger. Yes I'm aware she hasn't done or accomplished anything really really bad yet. But you just know she did a lot of horrible stuff prior the series and off-screen like Gin. And hey she's trying. She did want to mercilessly turn Haibara into barbecue.)
So yeah, it's like you said: it started out mysterious, meandered in the middle, and then concluded in a very unsatisfactory note, like some kind of summer fling.
Also, and on a very minor, personal note, I wish the opening themes matched the "feel" of the plot-related cases more. Openings are important for me because they set the mood of the show. I mean, I'm a huge fan of B'z and I liked Q&A's anime sequence for Mystery Train but it's hard for me to take a BO case seriously when it's fronted by the near-hilarious "somebody knows" and the Bourbon misspelling.
(I dunno, Scar-Akai, Amuro, and Sera just weren't scary enough. I think you were even supposed to like the latter two even before the reveal. Unlike Vermouth—I like her precisely because I feel like her middle name is danger. Yes I'm aware she hasn't done or accomplished anything really really bad yet. But you just know she did a lot of horrible stuff prior the series and off-screen like Gin. And hey she's trying. She did want to mercilessly turn Haibara into barbecue.)
So yeah, it's like you said: it started out mysterious, meandered in the middle, and then concluded in a very unsatisfactory note, like some kind of summer fling.
Also, and on a very minor, personal note, I wish the opening themes matched the "feel" of the plot-related cases more. Openings are important for me because they set the mood of the show. I mean, I'm a huge fan of B'z and I liked Q&A's anime sequence for Mystery Train but it's hard for me to take a BO case seriously when it's fronted by the near-hilarious "somebody knows" and the Bourbon misspelling.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
I don't disagree with this but even though I was certain who Okiya was, I still found him more of a threat to Conan than Eisuke. Even before I knew Eisuke was a good guy. The FBI were in major danger towards the end of THAT arc more than anything in the Bourbon arc but Conan himself...not so much. At least with Scar Akai and later Amuro there were points where Conan wasn't in complete control.bluekaitou1412 wrote:One of my problems re: Bourbon arc was that it didn't feel like Conan and co. was in any danger AT ALL, unlike previous BO arcs.
That being said, I do agree that too much of this arc was Conan knowing what's going on and not having to react. Not being in danger is one thing, but unless they made it a direct plot point, I don't see the appeal of a story arc where Conan knows what's going on but tells nobody. The Vermouth arc really only had Conan in control at the end, and that's without it actually feeling that way and EVEN THEN it was nearly completely ruined by Haibara.
The BO stuff works best when Conan and friends have to react.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
I think you hit the biggest problem with the first point. It was too long. I don't think I realized the time until someone pulled out the time stamp on spoiler translation from Akai's "death" chapter. Even Vermouth arc was ~4 years, and that one (if I recall correctly...) didn't have as many "hints" as this arc did. Unlike Vermouth arc, we knew something was off about Amuro from the get-go. I liked that difference. It made him mysterious and exciting, because you didn't know which side he was on. The closer he got to knowing more about Conan, the more exciting it was. And when he asked to see documents related to Akai's "death"? Definitely got me jump to edge of my seat in excitement. I mean he knew Date. How interesting it would be for someone who went to police academy to turn out to be BO member?
But then he turned out to be another spy... after all that wait. This would not have been the problem if there weren't so many "spies" in BO already. (Hey, maybe the "boss" is a spy too!) That's what makes it so unsatisfying for me. We already did that with Akai. Akai was mysterious, and appeared to be villain at first, but through bits and pieces at first (ex. Ran's memory of him wearing "FBI" jacket), we find out he's actually one of the good guys. So where does that leave Amuro? He's a spy within BO who hates another spy within BO(or maybe I should say "former BO member").
But then he turned out to be another spy... after all that wait. This would not have been the problem if there weren't so many "spies" in BO already. (Hey, maybe the "boss" is a spy too!) That's what makes it so unsatisfying for me. We already did that with Akai. Akai was mysterious, and appeared to be villain at first, but through bits and pieces at first (ex. Ran's memory of him wearing "FBI" jacket), we find out he's actually one of the good guys. So where does that leave Amuro? He's a spy within BO who hates another spy within BO(or maybe I should say "former BO member").

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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
what went wrong? a lot
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
@kkslider Well Eisuke was clearly motivated enough by something and we actually see him act on it while we have no idea what Okiya was/is thinking. So, Eisuke was scary because he was doing all these stupid/nosey things that might jeopardize everybody, while Okiya is/was scary because we're kept in the dark about his plans. Okiya obviously felt more dangerous at first, but his schtick got tiring after a while which is the same with Scar Akai.
And now that you've mentioned it, I completely agree about Conan not getting into enough trouble for me to care.
And now that you've mentioned it, I completely agree about Conan not getting into enough trouble for me to care.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
I mostly watched it in the anime for the most part since the beginning so the infinite apartment cases make it alot more annoying, but that's because the arc is that long so I guess it stacks up since they're all in one arc (for example I like most of the Rum arc apartment cases) and the manga doesn't have those that often so I'm kind of conflicted on it and sadly have to read the arc in full now that it's finally done with. I need to reread from end of shiragami(?) case.
I actually hated the Chimera Ant arc (took also like 7 years for Togashi to do) but it definitely had alot of highlights when you actually think through the events that go down. Since Gosho does actually put effort into writing things with his slow pacing there should be some gems here and there for sure.
I actually hated the Chimera Ant arc (took also like 7 years for Togashi to do) but it definitely had alot of highlights when you actually think through the events that go down. Since Gosho does actually put effort into writing things with his slow pacing there should be some gems here and there for sure.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Eisuke got written out of the series.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Easily problem #1. I'll say it again—if this arc hadn't gone on for so long, maybe 3 and 1/2 years to 4 and 1/2 years, instead, I don't think people would've taken such issue with it.kkslider5552000 wrote:-It was too long. Let's get the obvious one out of the way. It's pretty much the same regardless of whether I use the anime or manga but since I follow the anime, that's what I'll use. In the anime, the Bourbon arc started in the middle of 2008 and ended in the middle of 2015. That's a story arc that lasted for SEVEN GOD DAMN YEARS. Seven years for a single story arc, even one that had as many sections to it as this one (and we'll get to that) is crazy. Now this is not inherently bad if it keeps moving forward but....
That long plot break you're referring to lasted 17 cases (63 Files/40 Episodes). At the very least, over half of the cases in it could've been cut—some could've even been relocated to other points in the series—if not all but a few, say 3-5.kkslider5552000 wrote:-It took breaks. Now obviously while they've tried to avoid this at points in recent years (which to me as a blatant apology) there was a literal year and a half where THE PLOT WAS IGNORED. MID STORY ARC. The last time I saw such a blatant ignoring the plot it was because of Naruto's infamous 80 episodes of filler before the timeskip and that ALMOST KILLED THE ANIME. Something similar actually did kill Rurouni Kenshin's anime. It is just horrendous pacing in a series that isn't exactly quick paced in the first place, but this was insane. The fact that Gosho spent even a single chapter on Chiba's meaningless love story instead is still the worst thing Gosho has ever done. Worse than Haibara being taught a lesson by static electricity. Worse than Ran being willing to die because a fortune said a boy wouldn't like her otherwise. I don't say that lightly. Also, they were really stretching the definition of "plot development" with some of those Vermouth and Bourbon scenes for a while. Like mainly the ones before Makoto's last appearances.
For the fourth act of the Bourbon arc, a few cases could've been cut, and others could've had the relevant plot elements combined—have 2-3 cases become 1, instead.
Again, with that year and a half plot break, what could've been a three or even two act arc became a four act arc.kkslider5552000 wrote:-It had to be rewritten. I maintain (as mostly a positive point) that the second half of the Bourbon arc was way different than what was originally going to happen. The entire thing felt like it was answering critiques about the arc before that point and the large gap between Scar Akai's first two appearances and Sera's first appearance really feels like was the time Gosho spent to rewrite parts of this story arc. Obviously this is just guessing but it is the best and most logical explanation for why it would take so long to go back to a story arc when nothing like that level of a gap without even any worthwhile acknowledgment about the main story elements has happened before. Even the CELL PHONE ARC at least had some story elements and didn't happen in the middle of a story arc. Beyond that, I also wouldn't be shocked if Amuro wasn't originally going to be Bourbon. Or at least the same Bourbon character that was given to us. I feel a real disconnect between the 2008-2010 Bourbon arc and the 2012-2015 Bourbon arc (though unfortunately not enough for that year long gap to not be deeply annoying). Half of Sera's stuff isn't even relevant.
Shukichi might as well not have been introduced until this year in the manga, and next year, in the anime. The whole MG question could've been made a Rum arc one.kkslider5552000 wrote:-The climax was basically split in half and had a large gap between them. The Mystery Train was essentially the climax of the Bourbon arc, finally revealing the identities of these characters. Which was still the best move and I was incredibly excited about Bourbon figuring out about Conan's secret (at least in some way) by the next case. I obviously knew it wouldn't lead to Conan being in any long term serious danger with his identity but it was still fun. But it feels like the Amuro's reveal 2 years later should've happened shortly after that case (or at least in less than a year). If anything, considering most of Sera's appearances after the Mystery Train are focused on that weird kid she is with, it would've flowed way better to have those cases all right after the real end of the Bourbon arc since I think the literal next case after the final Okiya/Amuro reveal stuff had story stuff with Sera and the kid. But seriously, imagine if the post-hospital Clash of Red and Black stuff happened around 2 years after the hospital section. Wouldn't that be a bit much? It's just weird pacing.
He should've had Rei's fake name have no Gundam connection, but his voice actor would still present a problem.kkslider5552000 wrote:-Gundam naming scheme is dumb. I told my Gundam friend who has literally never seen this series and just by saying the characters' names he guessed their relationship. If I told him any basic information about these characters, he'd know everything. This is actually true.
Ties in with the "too long" problem.kkslider5552000 wrote:-Too slow. This is something I've learned to accept about the series. It is simply a better series if you don't watch on a week to week basis. Even as someone with a ton of patience for this type of series, it's not the amount of episode it takes for a storyline to go anywhere. It's the amount of time you have to wait when you're caught up. You didn't wait 3+ years to watch the Vermouth arc to finish, you probably went through that entire story arc in a few months at most (and I know from experience it can be quicker than that!). But yeah, the simple reality is having a single story arc that does so little to the status quo yet lasts 7 whole years is entirely ridiculous even for this series.
Too long and too slow. It was foreshadowed 2 and 1/2 years before the reveal, though.kkslider5552000 wrote:-BOURBON IS A SPY. SEVEN YEARS. FOR KIR 2. WHAT. HOW DO I VILLAIN
Indeed.kkslider5552000 wrote:I will say though that despite all these issues, I liked the Bourbon arc. It wasn't as good as the Vermouth arc certainly but it still had a lot of things I like about this stuff. Have a compelling and threatening mystery character do a thing that intrigues and you will probably keep me invested forever. At least in this series. Furthermore all three mystery characters are awesome. All the events were fun when they actually had a plot going on, regardless of any frustrations of when they happened or whether it was better for them to happen. But I do hope these mistakes don't continue going forward. I'm somewhat optimistic because I feel like Gosho is at least aware of his series' problems and complaints.
It was just the first time DC fans had seen something like it. The hints that Vermouth was Araide and Jodie wasn't were all there—people just weren't as accustomed back then as they were, now.Mina wrote:Even Vermouth arc was ~4 years, and that one (if I recall correctly...) didn't have as many "hints" as this arc did.
Mina wrote:But then he turned out to be another spy... after all that wait. This would not have been the problem if there weren't so many "spies" in BO already.
Two is a lot? (I'm not talking about dead ones (Ethan Hondo) or exposed ones (Shuichi))
...Mina wrote:(Hey, maybe the "boss" is a spy too!).
I wouldn't call his departure being "written out;" for example, take Araide—Gosho forgot about him. Then there's the interviews where he says things would be "interesting" if he came back.Shineko wrote:Eisuke got written out of the series.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
- usotsuki
Posts: 381
Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Sounds like Akira Toriyama and Lunch.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Two we currently know is not a lot, but you can't just ignore all the other ones. Kir, Bourbon, Rye, Scotch, Ethan Hondou (I think he was supposed to be a codenamed member, right?), all spies promoted to codename status by the boss, Sherry and Akemi Miyano went rogue, and Vermouth wants to see the Organisation fall too; furthermore, as Vermouth said in 898:DCUniverseAficionado wrote:Mina wrote:But then he turned out to be another spy... after all that wait. This would not have been the problem if there weren't so many "spies" in BO already.
Two is a lot? (I'm not talking about dead ones (Ethan Hondo) or exposed ones (Shuichi))

Now, I don't know the Japanese words, but "infestation" makes it seem like Gin thinks the problem is bigger than what we've seen so far. Even so, with all the undermining that has been going on so far, it's hard to take the Organisation seriously anymore. Rum needs to be a big thread again, otherwise it will just get really silly.
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
I think the problem is less that and more that we haven't seen enough of the Organization and the amount of people who are in it. If there were twice as many known, alive, not spy, codenamed (or at least named) members things would be a lot better. I also feel like they need to give the Organization a legit victory or do more to show how dangerous they really are as an organization. I mean, it isn't like this series is against introducing characters only for them to die anyway. It seems like a perfect story idea to introduce a detective who starts to find things out about the Organization only to be taken out.
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Kor
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Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Most of the things written in the first post are things plenty of people said a year and a half ago right after the arc ended in the manga. But sure, here are a few more things that went wrong in the arc.
The "confrontations" were lackluster. The Silent Clash (red shirts) didn't give us anything beyond a few more hints. The Mystery Train was completely illogical when you look at the actions of the characters. The Scarlet Showdown was kinda not the worst thing ever until it was revealed Amuro is also a spy and then it became the worst thing ever.
Practically everything about this whole arc revolved around Gosho repeating himself. Disguises, a sibling mystery (this arc even had two of those), a spy in the BO, a BO member who hates Akai, etc. We basically spent 7 years on more of the same stuff we've already seen, and worst of all, nothing was even achieved.
The BO has been completely undermined. As people commented earlier, with all of the spies and the rogue members, the BO is now more of a joke than a threat.
Gosho is tangling himself (intentionally or unintentionally, who knows) in the weirdest ways. For example, Akai says to Amuro he suspected him from the time he was in the organization of being a spy... which is apparently something he failed to mention to Conan, and that's a completely asinine way to generate conflict. This actually became quite a recurring problem at this point. Conan has plenty of allies at this point, but they suck at sharing information, and the more this weird dynamic continues, the more tangled and unnecessarily messy everything will become.
Speaking of tangled stuff, the weirdest aspect of the series right now is probably Sera. Here's the core issue - nothing about her or the pack of mysteries she brought into the series have yet to be even slightly meaningful to the story in any sort of way. She had zero impact as of yet, even though she's been given much much much much more focus than Eisuke. Worst of all, it's difficult to even tell what this character is about at this point - what the hell is her motivation? The other core issue is that besides not managing to have an impact, all the mysteries she brought in aren't really interesting and are overall pretty annoying to follow. In every possible way, Sera is a character Gosho thought of midway through the arc, inserted her to the story, but gave her a whole bunch of weird mysteries that don't really seem to matter (maybe besides the girl who lives with her, but that still hasn't been resolved). A few minor issues with this character is that she can also be pretty inconsistent with herself - for example, before Mystery Train she REALLY wanted to meet Haibara, like, she really did. She met her in Mystery Train and said she'd like to talk with her later again. After the train case... nothing, not even one single mention of Sera wanting to meet her again. Is there a reason Sera suddenly stopped caring? maybe. Have we been given such reason yet? nope. (oh, and I find Sera's characterization dumb overall too).
The "confrontations" were lackluster. The Silent Clash (red shirts) didn't give us anything beyond a few more hints. The Mystery Train was completely illogical when you look at the actions of the characters. The Scarlet Showdown was kinda not the worst thing ever until it was revealed Amuro is also a spy and then it became the worst thing ever.
Practically everything about this whole arc revolved around Gosho repeating himself. Disguises, a sibling mystery (this arc even had two of those), a spy in the BO, a BO member who hates Akai, etc. We basically spent 7 years on more of the same stuff we've already seen, and worst of all, nothing was even achieved.
The BO has been completely undermined. As people commented earlier, with all of the spies and the rogue members, the BO is now more of a joke than a threat.
Gosho is tangling himself (intentionally or unintentionally, who knows) in the weirdest ways. For example, Akai says to Amuro he suspected him from the time he was in the organization of being a spy... which is apparently something he failed to mention to Conan, and that's a completely asinine way to generate conflict. This actually became quite a recurring problem at this point. Conan has plenty of allies at this point, but they suck at sharing information, and the more this weird dynamic continues, the more tangled and unnecessarily messy everything will become.
Speaking of tangled stuff, the weirdest aspect of the series right now is probably Sera. Here's the core issue - nothing about her or the pack of mysteries she brought into the series have yet to be even slightly meaningful to the story in any sort of way. She had zero impact as of yet, even though she's been given much much much much more focus than Eisuke. Worst of all, it's difficult to even tell what this character is about at this point - what the hell is her motivation? The other core issue is that besides not managing to have an impact, all the mysteries she brought in aren't really interesting and are overall pretty annoying to follow. In every possible way, Sera is a character Gosho thought of midway through the arc, inserted her to the story, but gave her a whole bunch of weird mysteries that don't really seem to matter (maybe besides the girl who lives with her, but that still hasn't been resolved). A few minor issues with this character is that she can also be pretty inconsistent with herself - for example, before Mystery Train she REALLY wanted to meet Haibara, like, she really did. She met her in Mystery Train and said she'd like to talk with her later again. After the train case... nothing, not even one single mention of Sera wanting to meet her again. Is there a reason Sera suddenly stopped caring? maybe. Have we been given such reason yet? nope. (oh, and I find Sera's characterization dumb overall too).

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Posts: 1792
Re: What went wrong in the Bourbon arc?
Serinox wrote:Two we currently know is not a lot, but you can't just ignore all the other ones. Kir, Bourbon, Rye, Scotch, Ethan Hondou (I think he was supposed to be a codenamed member, right?), all spies promoted to codename status by the boss, Sherry and Akemi Miyano went rogue, and Vermouth wants to see the Organisation fall too; furthermore, as Vermouth said in 898:
Now, I don't know the Japanese words, but "infestation" makes it seem like Gin thinks the problem is bigger than what we've seen so far. Even so, with all the undermining that has been going on so far, it's hard to take the Organisation seriously anymore. Rum needs to be a big thread again, otherwise it will just get really silly.
The two dead ones we know of are no longer directly affecting the plot—indirectly, yes.kkslider5552000 wrote:I think the problem is less that and more that we haven't seen enough of the Organization and the amount of people who are in it. If there were twice as many known, alive, not spy, codenamed (or at least named) members things would be a lot better. I also feel like they need to give the Organization a legit victory or do more to show how dangerous they really are as an organization. I mean, it isn't like this series is against introducing characters only for them to die anyway. It seems like a perfect story idea to introduce a detective who starts to find things out about the Organization only to be taken out.
If we knew more about the Organization and had a vague idea, at least, of the overall membership, from top to bottom, then this spy thing wouldn't seem such a problem.
Sorry, I can't agree with that. If the BO finds out the truth about Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai, things will get bad for them real quick—that's how things have been since her initial appearance. The BO hasn't lost their threat—if they're to have a victory, it'll seem small compared to what Shinichi/Conan and co. consider a victory. This series isn't going to end with a BO victory, after all.Kor wrote:The BO has been completely undermined. As people commented earlier, with all of the spies and the rogue members, the BO is now more of a joke than a threat.
I'd hardly call a criminal organization that the CIA, the FBI and the PSB/PSIA can't get rid of and has lasted for fifty years a "joke," as you put it.
No, but this is a thread about the problems—I haven't seen one of those on DCTP or DCW. Anyone wants to know about what people found wrong with the Bourbon arc, they can look right here, for the thoughts and opinions of everyone who wanted to post.Kor wrote:Most of the things written in the first post are things plenty of people said a year and a half ago right after the arc ended in the manga.
I did make a poll about when/if the quality of Detective Conan declined, but it wasn't a thread asking why, though I did ask for elaboration on why, in that poll.
No disagreement, here. Gosho did allude to that "worst thing ever" nearly two and a half years before it was revealed, though—he wanted to do it.Kor wrote:The "confrontations" were lackluster. The Silent Clash (red shirts) didn't give us anything beyond a few more hints. The Mystery Train was completely illogical when you look at the actions of the characters. The Scarlet Showdown was kinda not the worst thing ever until it was revealed Amuro is also a spy and then it became the worst thing ever.
Practically everything about this whole arc revolved around Gosho repeating himself. Disguises, a sibling mystery (this arc even had two of those), a spy in the BO, a BO member who hates Akai, etc. We basically spent 7 years on more of the same stuff we've already seen, and worst of all, nothing was even achieved.
But would it have been as bad if the whole arc took as long or even less as long as the Vermouth arc?
Again, Rei's/Tooru's connection to the Japanese authorities was alluded in File 808, back in 2012—Gosho had that set up.Kor wrote:Gosho is tangling himself (intentionally or unintentionally, who knows) in the weirdest ways. For example, Akai says to Amuro he suspected him from the time he was in the organization of being a spy... which is apparently something he failed to mention to Conan, and that's a completely asinine way to generate conflict. This actually became quite a recurring problem at this point. Conan has plenty of allies at this point, but they suck at sharing information, and the more this weird dynamic continues, the more tangled and unnecessarily messy everything will become.
And what about him telling Shinichi/Conan what Bourbon looks like? He clearly knows.
Shiho/Ai being kept out of things since after the Vermouth arc hasn't helped matters—she needs to get involved in this. Even in the Kir arc, she knew what was going on with the titular character of the arc. She may not even know that Re/Tooru is PSB/PSIA.
Again, the "too long" and "too slow" problems with the Bourbon arc made this issue really stick out.Kor wrote:Speaking of tangled stuff, the weirdest aspect of the series right now is probably Sera. Here's the core issue - nothing about her or the pack of mysteries she brought into the series have yet to be even slightly meaningful to the story in any sort of way. She had zero impact as of yet, even though she's been given much much much much more focus than Eisuke. Worst of all, it's difficult to even tell what this character is about at this point - what the hell is her motivation? The other core issue is that besides not managing to have an impact, all the mysteries she brought in aren't really interesting and are overall pretty annoying to follow. In every possible way, Sera is a character Gosho thought of midway through the arc, inserted her to the story, but gave her a whole bunch of weird mysteries that don't really seem to matter (maybe besides the girl who lives with her, but that still hasn't been resolved). A few minor issues with this character is that she can also be pretty inconsistent with herself - for example, before Mystery Train she REALLY wanted to meet Haibara, like, she really did. She met her in Mystery Train and said she'd like to talk with her later again. After the train case... nothing, not even one single mention of Sera wanting to meet her again. Is there a reason Sera suddenly stopped caring? maybe. Have we been given such reason yet? nope. (oh, and I find Sera's characterization dumb overall too).
The dangling plot threads of DC have become innumerable with the Bourbon arc, and Masumi's appearance brought about more than a few of these plot threads—the plot threads concerning her aren't related to the BO, unless MG is keeping it from her. Either way, she doesn't even know about the BO.
The sooner we get the Shinichi/Ran/Masumi first meeting flashback, the sooner we can move on.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
