Religious Themes in DC

[Shiromi]

I'm not religious, but I find religions fascinating. That's why I took a course on Japanese religions in college. It's really helped me understand the cultural context that Anime and Manga are in. Thanks to that course, here are somethings I've noticed, and I want to know if everyone sees the same patterns.

First and foremost, the detectives, all of them are Skeptics and logicians. Some of them are bad at, like Mouri Kogorou, but even then, supernatural explanations are dismissed out of hand. Because of the way logic, reasoning, and skepticism are championed in the series, it's tempting to label it as the main theme and ignore anything else in the series.

The supernatural does exist in DC - but any time it results in a murder, or is something that people are manipulating to get money out of it - it is proven fraudulent. The times that it is real in the series:

Kazuha's omamori, which is so powerful it saves Shinichi's life.
Heiji's dream about Shinichi being stabbed.
Ran's insanely good luck, and her apparent psychic intuitiveness. (When she guesses, she guesses correctly, or very close to the truth.)
Shinichi's ability to feel when someone is looking at him with malintent, especially Kaitou KID.
Haibara's ability to sense when BO members are near.

Shintou values are very important in DC. Often, Shinichi will lecture the killer about how they should have let go of their grudges and lived a long, happy life instead of dwelling on death and only looking forward to the end of life. This is a value that is quite counter to Buddhist values, which make one's whole life about getting an awesome next life. Then there is "makoto" - "truthfulness, sincerity", which is pretty much the basis of Shinichi's character and sense of justice.

Despite rejecting core Buddhist values, there's a slightly Buddhist angle, which is hard to tell if it's really there or just convenient for story-telling purposes. This actually started a game between me and a friend of mine when watching this show, called, "spot the asshole!" That person will be the victim. In almost every case, the victim has wracked up some kind of bad karma or deadly grudge from the people around them. Their deaths become partially their own fault, and we don't have to feel so bad about someone dying horribly. Compare this to Christian-culture based stories, and you're playing "find the martyr!"

Transhumanism was a big thing in the 90's, when this series started out. It's the main basis of "The Matrix" and "Ghost in the Shell". Back then, the idea that man and machine were starting to merge was new, frightening, and what everyone was thinking about. The B.O. is developing simulation software, computer viruses, and miracle drugs/cures for old age, all things pointing to a transhumanist goal.

Other than that, Vermouth likes to use Christian imagery, though she doesn't seem to really believe in it, and it may be more connected to her dramatic flare.

That's what I've noticed about this series. Any thoughts? Did I miss something?

[usotsuki]

It probably makes sense that Vermouth would use Christian imagery, given that she's an American...

Yeah, I saw the transhumanist element in the Org's objectives too.

[Jd-]

Good topic and discussion. I'll add more to it later.

Of course, I disagree that there are any actually (intentional) supernatural happenings of any kind in the entire Conan world. The instances you mentioned, as far as I'm concerned, are really just the employment of pretty standard dramatic license. That dramatic license is not in any way meant to imply anything supernatural and Gosho has made that pretty clear on several occasions. I would more say it's really just to package different avenues of drama with the usual formula instead of purporting anything legitimately "supernatural".

I'll post more about it later when I have some time.

[PhantomWriter]

Though Vermouth uses Christian imagery, there are also references to Greek mythos regarding her as well. That whole thing regarding "For the Fairest" and why Akai called her a rotten apple. It is implied she's like Eris, Greek goddess of strife and discord.

Haibara also makes both Christian and Greek references. She discusses the whole fruit of knowledge of good and evil at one point, talking about Adam and Eve. She also explicitly states to Conan that Ano Kata's phone number is Pandora's box. As soon as Pandora's box is opened, suffering is released into the world, after all...

[Shiromi]

Of course, I disagree that there are any actually (intentional) supernatural happenings of any kind in the entire Conan world. The instances you mentioned, as far as I'm concerned, are really just the employment of pretty standard dramatic license. That dramatic license is not in any way meant to imply anything supernatural and Gosho has made that pretty clear on several occasions. I would more say it's really just to package different avenues of drama with the usual formula instead of purporting anything legitimately "supernatural".

I haven't read much in the way of interviews with Goushou, and I don't know much about the mangaka's personal life, philosophies, or values, so I'll be interested to see what you have to say!

I usually apply dramatic license to things like a character sneezing when other characters are talking about them, that sort of thing. The dream-omen is a pretty common drama-ploy, but it was different in the case of Shinichi's stabbing. Because Heiji took the dream seriously, and because he made Shinichi wear the omamori Kazuha made him, Shinichi was saved. That's what makes me think that those particular events are meant to be taken as supernatural forces at work. Also, the way Heiji acted made me think that this wasn't the first time this had happened to Heiji, and he was really nervous about Shinichi calling him out on his superstitions; therefore, he spent more time making fun of Kazuha's superstitions. He didn't want to be seen as prone to confirmation bias - but he keeps the omamori on him and made Shinichi wear it anyways.

Dream-omens for dramatic story telling usually are at the beginning of the story, before anything else in the story, so you don't know that it's not a dream like in The Raven Chaser. In the Heiji-dream-omen, it was clear that he was remembering the dream, and it was introduced only after some of the rising action.

I don't doubt though, that Shinichi views Heiji's superstitions as confirmation bias, but since Heiji doesn't let it affect his detective work, he doesn't tease Heiji about it or bring it up as a character flaw (at least not that we've seen).

[Kor]

She discusses the whole fruit of knowledge of good and evil at one point, talking about Adam and Eve.

I actually think that is one of the dumbest moments for Haibara in the series, not because it's a bible reference, but because Haibara (according to the subs at least) seems to be aware there's no actual identification to the fruit in the story, yet she still tells the kids how the apple can tell between good and evil, and she did that for... arguing against Genta...? There are plenty of examples for apple-related stuff in mythology, so why use a mythological example for something that isn't even recognized as an apple?

[PhantomWriter]

I actually think that is one of the dumbest moments for Haibara in the series, not because it's a bible reference, but because Haibara (according to the subs at least) seems to be aware there's no actual identification to the fruit in the story, yet she still tells the kids how the apple can tell between good and evil, and she did that for... arguing against Genta...? There are plenty of examples for apple-related stuff in mythology, so why use a mythological example for something that isn't even recognized as an apple?

I am aware of that, but the fruit itself is generally assumed in popular culture to be an apple, even though it's much more likely it was supposed to be a pomegranate. Perhaps she was unaware of that, considering how ubiquitous that the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is assumed to be an apple? I also don't understand why she would argue with Genta like that.

[usotsuki]

I don't remember an Adam and Eve reference but I might just be dense, there are after all over 700 eps

The use of "apple" for the fruit in the Adam/Eve case comes from a pun in Latin; the neuter-gender form of the Latin word for "evil" is spelled the same as the Latin word for "apple" (malum).

[k11chi]

Yeah I remember how apples were everywhere in Death Note too..
Hmm... London case had that satan stuff going on.

[svon1]

perhaps i can answer some questions over other relgions histories ... i am some kind of hobby historian and i am self a roman pagan

most people dont know but the "world religons"
chirstians 1,500,000
islamic 1,000,000
budhism 1,000,000
are all together 3,5 billion of 7,5 billion humans (45%)
the most are still the old ways even in europe

there are still 130~140 million vikings(europe and canada)
12~15 million greeks
4~5 million romans
the celts the greeks and the romans are called pagan heathen cuz there basics in believe are the same

freedome is important in ancient european believes
that include the free choice if they want to believe or not
thats why it is so hard to tell how much they really have

[Shiromi]

I actually think that is one of the dumbest moments for Haibara in the series, not because it's a bible reference, but because Haibara (according to the subs at least) seems to be aware there's no actual identification to the fruit in the story, yet she still tells the kids how the apple can tell between good and evil, and she did that for... arguing against Genta...? There are plenty of examples for apple-related stuff in mythology, so why use a mythological example for something that isn't even recognized as an apple?

I am aware of that, but the fruit itself is generally assumed in popular culture to be an apple, even though it's much more likely it was supposed to be a pomegranate. Perhaps she was unaware of that, considering how ubiquitous that the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is assumed to be an apple? I also don't understand why she would argue with Genta like that.

A pomegranate? For some reason I thought it was a date, because those are really common around the Mediterranean Sea. But, there are a lot of 'magical pomegranate' superstitions and myths around the Mediterranean Sea too, so that'd make sense.

So, anyone know what Goushou has to say on the topic of psychic detective Heiji? Or any of the supposed-supernatural content in Detective Conan?

Also, someone needs to write Psychic Detective Heiji fanfic...

[Raifuujin]

Also, someone needs to write Psychic Detective Heiji fanfic...

* Raifuujin is reminded of this fic (though, it is a bit old)

[Shiromi]

Also, someone needs to write Psychic Detective Heiji fanfic...

* Raifuujin is reminded of this fic (though, it is a bit old)

Oh yeah, this one. I've read it, but it's not really the idea I was thinking of. I was thinking of writing Heiji as though he already has prophetic dreams. He'd try to stop his dreams from happening, but he can't move forward without evidence of a crime. It'd make for a suspenseful series, and I haven't seen anyone run with that idea.