Why do people dislike Ran?

[kkslider5552000]

Finally. I've been working on this for a while and had been planning it for some time now. Finally, it is posted. Still a bit nervous like I'm gonna be graded or something. But it is done, and I hope you enjoy. Also, big props to Sonoci. In more ways than one she was extremely helpful.


Ran is one of the more controversial characters of Detective Conan. While she has plenty of fans in the fan community (in Japan or otherwise), she has a good amount of haters as well from what I've seen. So as a diehard fan of Detective Conan, surrounded by diehard fans of Detective Conan, I feel it would worthwhile to explore why she gets the type of reaction she does. I don’t promise this will be some brilliant observation that will change how you perceive fiction or any hyperbole like that, but I will try to make this intelligent, interesting and (hopefully) fair. I hope you enjoy this little essay of mine.

Now first thing I have to address, right up front, is that Detective Conan is probably not the ideal anime to choose to examine the depths of characters. When you think of characters worth taking a close look at in this medium, something like Death Note or Evangelion would be far more likely topics, even for most fans. Detective Conan characters I’d dare say are often borderline secondary or just tools for the story of a case once it comes time to focus on the murder mysteries. However, despite that, they are still very much actual characters that people really get into and I know these characters are genuinely worthwhile and good. But they are definitely more likable and fun rather than particularly (or at least consistently?) complex or creative. At least, that’s how I’d put it. My brief look into Kindaichi was a good example of how Detective Conan’s characters are so much more interesting by comparison. That series clearly has good murder mysteries but what I saw didn't make me care about any character in even the slightest. So even at worst, I really like a majority of the recurring cast of the series and I can safely say that the female lead to my favorite anime that I've been watching since 2008 is worth this essay.

But now let’s just discuss this character. Now, Ran’s personality is not that complicated. At seventeen years old, Mouri Ran is your somewhat average yet endlessly idealistic teenage girl, who does a good job at not being some extreme character. She has patience while still being sad and frustrated because of her scenario where that’s truly tested. She can kick ass without being untouchable or some ice cold, flawless, karate master. She can be intelligent but not close to the levels of convenient know-it-all that this series relies on. This is a good, flawed but not useless, character (at least in theory).

So, despite not being my favorite character or even close, I did like Ran. Nowadays, I’m not sure I can say that. In the past year or two, I’ve just stopped enjoying Ran as a character at all, which is quite a bad thing for the female lead of my favorite anime. Now I have much to discuss before going to the exact point I started to turn against her character, so let’s start with potentially disproving the previous paragraph. Any interesting parts of Ran as a character are often overshadowed by a number of things. A major example is how despite defeating criminals using karate, more often than not she’s not allowed to really show off her skills. Agasa’s inventions are to blame, as Conan gets those shoes specifically because he was disappointed with needing to be saved by Ran in the 2nd episode of the series. In the long run this might not have been the best choice as Ran could have been good as the brawn to Conan’s brains. Even some of the times later in the series where her karate makes a difference she’s joined by, and arguably overshadowed by, the strength of certain other characters’ martial arts. So basically every single time Makoto makes an appearance for example. As that is often seen as one of her more notable traits, this is not a good idea unless being overshadowed is used in the story correctly. Of course it doesn't help that the movies tend to make her role, at least during the climax, as the damsel in distress to be saved by Conan despite Ran’s karate talents, but I feel like that’s a bit unfair considering Gosho did not write those movies. So while that has helped my perception of this, I am not using that to confirm anything about the character. But those movies, along with the animation in the Openings, do still make an impact on people.

However, her ability to kick ass being a bit ignored does not quite compare to her personality in terms of disappointment. To put it bluntly, Ran is not that compelling or interesting really. One of my problems is that her character is too serious. Any legitimate drama of Conan and Ran’s situation has been explored, and they’ve added nothing new to keep you invested. But she’s not allowed to be fun or ridiculous like certain other characters so what scenes she does get are often just boring. Even what little happened in London felt like for a minute it was going to continue beyond that case, but as it has only been mentioned instead of actually followed up on, it just disappoints me and has been a factor that has made me less invested in their silly love story. Sadly it seems like Gosho has run out of ideas in this regard, and it’s suffered because of that. At this point, the only way I could see myself caring again would be for Ran to actually know his identity. Ran actively investigating Conan and leading to this event would solve quite a few problems, which is why at this point I think that’s the direction they should go. Unfortunately, I believe it’s likely that this will happen so late in the series that there won’t be a chance to fully use that concept for story purposes or even as a new status quo for the series.

This leads me to another similar problem, Ran and Shinichi’s relationship. This is something I’d be more willing to forgive if the series wasn't so long and it wasn't considered such an important aspect of the series. Most of these issues are common in the type of series I tend to enjoy; the love interests where they’re too shy to tell their feelings and things always get in the way when they try to do so. Now, while there have technically been confessions in this series (in some ways, the episode 2 confession is actually brilliant) they don’t tend to change the idea that tends to happen in romances in these type of manga/anime. The two people that clearly want to be with each other, but for some reason or another, aren't. Just put the two in a relationship, as an actual couple, and make stories about the relationship instead of having cute moments to replace real development or something that hasn't already been done to death in this series. It isn't like the writing of romance in this series has ever been particularly amazing (not that I would know much on that genre), so as far as I’m concerned it’s gotten pretty bad for me to be sick of this relationship story (though it’s not as bad as that Chiba story, don’t get me started on that lazy waste of time).
I still enjoy Heiji and Kazuha’s relationship, which has somehow had far less development, but it’s because the characters have chemistry. Their interaction is really fun. Yeah, it’s basically just the hot headed guy and tsundere girl couple, but I like that when it’s done well and fun to watch and it is. They are enjoyable to watch and I certainly won’t say Shinichi and Ran haven’t had enjoyable scenes that are comparable but it’s not as frequent. I feel like maybe the issue is that there is a relationship and chemistry as characters between Conan and Ran. The idea is maybe that Conan and Ran know each other better because of their situation and thus it will all work when the identity is revealed. It could be, as Shinichi often is intentionally hiding information from Ran and not being too honest. I kinda doubt it though. Also, can I point out that these are relationship scenes more than they are relationship stories? Just a thought I've had for a while.

Before I go on, I will be a bit fair and talk about some scenes and parts of the story I really like involving Ran. As stated before, I think Ran’s confession scene in episode 2 was brilliant. It made for some great dramatic irony having Conan learn that the girl he likes, likes him back as soon as he is in a situation where he is no longer himself. There are quite a few cute moments in the early years I think really work (I can’t hate Ran between the cute sweater scene and being scared to sleep alone with a bandaged murderer around). Ran suspecting Conan stories are great. Desperate Revival’s sad yet hopeful ending, especially with what happens with Conan and the music is fantastic. Ran in episode 400 is fantastic, using her brain to try to figure out a password to find out if Conan is Shinichi once and for all and her attitude is kinda awesome during it. I’m seemingly in the minority that actually liked the London case and what development there was. There’s AO sort of stuff like OVA 8 or Magic File 5 intentionally (I think?) making fun of Ran’s idealism and love, which almost makes her more likable. Also, while this is 95% because Kid saved this movie and it’s an interesting plot idea, I really liked what they were doing with Kid tricking Ran into thinking that he’s Shinichi in Movie 14. Of course I have to mention Haibara and while I fully admit I love pretty much anything involving Haibara, the almost subtle relationship between Ran and Haibara is really interesting and I hope it plays a major role in the future. This all demonstrates to me that her character can be good but she’s not allowed to be.

With that out of the way, there’s an issue I've been struggling to talk about involving this character and how she is written. That is to say, as clearly as possible, that the writing of Mouri Ran is sexist. Yeah…it’s…kinda sexist. Now before I say anything else, I do not believe that Gosho Aoyama himself is some sexist asshole or whatever. He unintentionally wrote a main female character in a sexist way, which is not exactly new for shonen, or writing as a whole. It is probably difficult and just unlikely for anyone to avoid writing something unintentionally offensive towards the opposite sex if they write so frequently. Considering some of his other female characters, he could certainly be worse. But regardless, that is still an accusation perhaps more serious than anything I've said. So let me try to justify it.

Oddly, for the sake of this essay, it is best I discuss the last thing I've discovered relevant to this first and discuss the first thing I discovered, last. Sonoci was very helpful for this subject so I’ll just quote her:

“It's sad, but Sonoko is more of a complex character than Ran is. Because she's allowed to be herself. Her attitude is not like it is because she's "supposed to" be that way, she's the way she is because she wants to be.”

This is what I think I was missing in trying to make this feel fully justified, as I’m never a fan of things being called sexist so easily. But it is true that the core of this issue is that the writing of Ran is bad enough that she’s not allowed to be written well. The reason for this is simple. Ran is not allowed to BE her own character, she is Shinichi’s love interest and everything she does revolves around him without thought being put into what she wants beyond Shinichi. In a better story this could be resolved in two ways. One of which would be to have Ran become less dependent on Shinichi, either by finding the line between her love being important to her and having her own life or by just flat out getting away from the relationship. The other option would be for the story to acknowledge how worrisome revolving your life around some boy could be. Otherwise, I don’t think she has much of a chance of being a good character as her character is “the idealistic teenager love interest for our protagonist”. That’s not complex, but it is distressingly close to a gender switched equivalent to what Twilight did.

Shinichi himself can come across as a sexist character as well. A major example of that would be the last Eisuke scene where Conan’s identity is revealed to him. Ignoring that Eisuke had known this for a while, Conan reveals who he really is because Eisuke wanted to confess to Ran and Conan refused to let that happen. It implies that Shinichi won’t allow her to deal with that pretty harmless situation. But the thing is that I’m still ok with that scene. Shinichi is jealous at best, sexist at worst but while not intentional I’m sure, that fits pretty well with Shinichi/Conan. He’s always come across as a good guy whose ideals and intelligence can make him kind of a jerk, so him being a bit sexist arguably adds to the character. Not all good characters need to always be good or completely innocent, it keeps things interesting. But the problem is that I honestly believe Ran would be completely ok with all of this, barring maybe feeling a bit bad for Eisuke. Ran would just be happy because of Conan/Shinichi acknowledging his feelings towards her without even thinking about if he actually respects her. In theory, a certain part of the paper airplane case that happens shortly afterwards should at least somewhat contradict that theory, but no, it just comes across to me as out of character the more I think about. That’s a shame as I remember really liking that. Unfortunately, this makes me think that the reason some people think the rare scenes where Ran is legit angry at Shinichi and/or jealous towards some girl (episode 10 being the obvious example) wouldn't happen is because Ran isn't allowed to be that angry or jealous either despite being a teenager in love. That might not be true at all, but it is another thought I just had while writing this.

But that whole Eisuke thing was not why I thought the writing was going sexist places or was all that sexist to begin with. I’m undecided whether I blame this more on this episode hurting my perception of the character that badly or if this was just such a slow point in the series a while after I had fully caught up and needed to wait for new episodes (thus giving me more time to think about individual cases and whatnot). But episodes 592 and 593 (The Tori's Pledge of Monkeys and Rakes) are pretty inexcusable. It was bad enough that the case was boring and forgettable in the middle of a wasteland of story or character development (even by usual standards). But it is so sexist; I need another paragraph just to describe it.

In this story, Ran gets a fortune on a piece of paper that says to be a traditional Japanese woman instead of tomboy-ish and gaudy if she wants the boy he likes to like her back. But that’s no big deal, it’s obvious that she’ll learn to be herself by the end and it’s just a dumb and obvious moral of the episode. But then she figures out to be more like herself…because the piece of paper was actually switched by Sonoko. The fortune meant for her basically said “never give up, be yourself and you’ll find true love!” She then kicks the culprit (who was the one to read it out loud because why not?) so hard that he is knocked out and can be arrested.

I’m sorry, what? What?! Are you kidding me?! That is just awful! This is one of those things I thought was bad at first but the more I thought about it, the more awful it became. That is straight up offensive to women, no other way to look at it. Just to add to this, it’s implied that before she found this out, she wasn’t going to fight back against the guy who was going to attack her with a knife. I’m not even joking. Not only does this suggest that the only way a woman (or a teenage girl) can be herself is if a fortune says it’s ok, it suggests that dying would be preferable to a girl not being ideal for the man she likes. There is no acknowledgment in any form that her dying in this scenario wouldn't fit until the paper is confirmed to be fake. This isn't a story about how Ran is hopelessly obsessed with this, it’s a story about how Ran is the ideal teenage girl for our genius detective protagonist. Ran shouldn't have an opinion in this apparently, just keep following the advice for stupid reasons. Even as someone who would never call himself a huge Ran fan, I’m offended as a fan of the series, good writing and as a person who respects the opposite sex. Again, I don’t think Gosho was trying to be sexist, but that’s how it comes across. It is a really bad portrayal of women/teenage girls and I would say Gosho should have thought way harder about the implications of it. Regardless of that, this makes Ran to look phenomenally stupid. It is literally suicidal, or at least too close to it. You’re gonna die because you believe in a piece of paper that told you a boy won’t like you if you act a certain way? Not only that, but for a boy who Is not even there (as far she knows anyway). Ran…you’re one of those girls that reference Romeo and Juliet but don’t know how it ends aren't you? Thankfully I don’t think the series can top that nonsense. I hope.

There is one last thing beyond that though. I feel like the final thing beyond sexism that’s made me realize that I’m not much of a fan of Ran anymore is that we have a far more enjoyable karate girl. Her name is Sera. Sera is actually fun, has a sense of humor and self-awareness, is really intelligent and can help during the crimes, and can kick ass at least as well as Ran or even Makoto. Her relevance to the plot isn’t high school romance; it’s about her connection to one of the coolest characters of the entire series. This means she’s actually directly relevant to the ongoing plot that, when it’s allowed to be, is arguably the most engaging part of the whole series. However, to be a bit fair, I honestly think Sera is without a doubt, the best and most enjoyable recurring character Gosho has made in a decade, so it would be tough competition either way.

I feel like I should be honest and say that one of the main reasons I wrote this was as a test for myself, to prove that I could write something worth reading that was also a worthwhile piece critiquing a work I genuinely love. No matter what, I won’t be convinced this was good enough even for the small audience that will actually read this, but I should be happy I didn't actually give up on this like certain other projects I wanted to do in my own time and gave up on too easily. I have not even needed a thesaurus! But, I do have other reasons. I wanted to, I suppose, vent my frustrations with Ran as she is the main female character of my favorite anime series and I’m not a fan of hers anymore. I don’t hate Ran, but I am disappointed and I want to believe before the series is over that she can be written in such a way that she’s “redeemed”. Ran deserves better. It’s certainly not impossible, and events of the past couple of years seem to indicate that Gosho does listen to fans. With all that said, I hope that other people can also put their thoughts into reasons why they do or don’t like the character (or other aspects of the series), as I’d like to think intelligent discussion about this would be nothing but a good thing.

[User 4869]

OMG TLDR.

OK. I promise to gradually read this. But without read I say this.
People have certain attributes they like or dislike. One thing we can agree with is Ran cries easily, but whether this mean she s adorable or annoying depend on the people. So dont get work up too much by that

(From a person who worked up so much about a certain character)



Edit. The thread went in a way i didnt expect. So I say this
TCDC
Too complex, didnt comment


Except. I notice that in a long series like DC. I see some characters turn from annoying to be more likeable , or vice versa. Vermouth and harbara post 345 are no match for their pre 345 counterpart in term of development and depth. Only Vermouth is save recently with some BO cases.
Ps.(If I can stop editing) I dislike the case with that fortunetelling too. I find I cant say "I like Ran" as easy as before because of case like this.
Ps2(Evidently, I can stop editing). I think this tread should be named "What do you think about how Ran is portray" or something along the line.

[red.orchid]

Thank you for a good piece of writing! I genuinely hated the Tori case as well, with Ran actually believing in the stupid fortune and only fighting back, finding out that it wasn't meant for her >_< (the case was boring, which didn't really help). I really really dislike her to be portrayed as a damsel in distress in almost all Movies, not to mention her animation in OPs and EDs and such always makes a negative connotation. I don't like her to be that obsessed with Shinichi either, strangely. How could she know he's the best for her without trying to date other boys? She avoids getting acquainted with other boys and she's not even married to Shinichi yet! That makes her so so unreal in this series, and I guess that's the reason Shinichi always takes her feelings for granted, which I dislike. Ran isn't an interesting characte, I agreed, (at least not by the definition that you would refer to Haibara or Sera), but I love her, and Gosho is making her image worse. Sexism, I think, is the right word.

[bash7353]

First, kkslider5552000, let me tell you that considering what posts we usually get from you, I'm positively surprised by your first original novel. It made for a nice reading…

Now, the sexism thing is something that I've noticed as well, but not just I'm terms of Ran. Characters like Sonoko, Kazuha are also depicted in a way that you could easily accuse Gosho of being a sexist. I actually have read people arguing that, and I believe their points have merit. The reasons why it can feel as if certain characters are for some reason "inferior" is because they tend not to contribute to the main thing in this series: deductions and solving crimes. All the detectives in Detective Conan that sometimes help Conan or Shinichi or enter a deduction showdown with him are male (Heiji, Kaito Kid, sometimes Okiya points out important things) and Shinichi/Conan himself is also male, obviously. The first and thus far only time Gosho decided to change that pattern is when he introduced Sera, who I agree is one of the greatest characters Gosho has created, and not just because she breaks the above-mentioned pattern.
To be fair, there are quite a few strong female characters as well. Kir, Vermoth, Jodie and Sato come to mind. However, all but Sato appear mostly in cases relevant to the overall plot, and therefore not nearly as often as Ran, Sonoko or even Kazuha. And also, I don't believe you can somehow offset portraying characters in a sexist way by just also having strong female characters as well - no matter how many there are or how strong they are.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I also see the sexism you're describing, though I don't really think it's only been there since recently. It's been there all along and it's not just exclusive to Ran.

I don't really agree with this, though:

[...]
Shinichi himself can come across as a sexist character as well. A major example of that would be the last Eisuke scene where Conan’s identity is revealed to him. Ignoring that Eisuke had known this for a while, Conan reveals who he really is because Eisuke wanted to confess to Ran and Conan refused to let that happen. It implies that Shinichi won’t allow her to deal with that pretty harmless situation. But the thing is that I’m still ok with that scene. Shinichi is jealous at best, sexist at worst but while not intentional I’m sure, that fits pretty well with Shinichi/Conan. [...]

The implication never was that Shinichi is sexist here, but rather Eisuke. The idea that he can confess to Ran only after getting Shinichi's permission, and if he's turned down he isn't allowed to tell her at all is one that Eisuke has come up with, not Shinichi. Conan just replied to the question the way that he saw fit. Granted, it would have been more progressive and at the same time would have protected his identity, if he'd just said something along the lines of "Why do I (Conan) care about what's going on with your love-triangle? I don't have any stake in this." But I don't really see any sexism in the the way he actually decided to respond.
It should be noted, though, that this argument only stands if we believe that Eisuke didn't ask these sort of questions in order to confirm his suspicions that Conan might be Shinichi, and Shinichi just happened to fall for it but rather because he actually feels Shinichi gets a say in his love life.

As far as Ran knowing Conan's identity is concerned, I've mentioned in another thread that I see hints it might happen in the next couple years. But while it would change a lot of the dynamics of cases where Ran is involved, I don't think that would change all that much of what you mentioned you don't like about the portrayal of Ran's character. If it does happen, I hope Gosho has Ran figure it out herself with Conan this time being unable to employ a clever trick to somehow convince her that her suspicions are once again wrong rather than letting Conan/Shinichi just tell her.

[kholoudsafir]

That was interesting, I read it all.

As most of you know I am one of the strongest fans of Ran and one of the reasons I have mentioned is the similarities between us.
I believe that her being boring and serious is the responsibility laid on her shoulders at an early age. Heibara shares the seriousness, but her sarcasm ,makes up for it and makes her lovable. I had a similar experience as Ran, at teenage I was living with my dad and my younger sister, no one had great expectations from me, but the idea of responsibility took me head to toe and yes I was a boring serious teenager. So, in my opinion Ran's portrait is a realistic one.

I agree that Ran's potential interesting personality or character development was taken over by Sera and the plot she brought with her,
Not that much of a spoiler

Spoiler:

The plot is getting more complicated these days thanks to Sera as her role did not finish after the Mystery Train

.
Personally, I do not think Sera is a better character than Ran, she is just different, I do not think it is fair to compare them.

I am sad to say that like Slider, I haven't enjoyed Ran since a while and the Mystery train was the last straw for me. I was joking with my sister saying that the DBs are having more active role than Ran.
I am reading the whole thread of Chekhov's theories and there were hopes that the Bourbon arc and Ran suspicions will go parallel together and the Bourbon arc was revealed and Ran... well what can I say

Spoiler:

until now in the manga things are not so promising regrading Ran

I am hoping the Gosho has a pleasant surprise for us some time

[k11chi]

I dont really dislike her... Honestly I think Ran in chapter 1 was used as a template for SO MANY ecchi series (dark haired girl that does martial arts with tight ass and pushing personality or whatever) and even before DC there existed some of those, so that's definitely a + where that went
But what I dont like isn't her normal girl persona but
actually I gotta think about that sec

[Kudo Shinchi]

Firstly, thanks for the interesting topic, slider, its always great when we have topics like these where actual in-depth discussion can take place. Now, about Ran...I like her as a character, and I've never actually felt anydislike towards her. To be honest her only problem these days is that she doesn't do much, and that Gosho's writing of her hasn't been the smoothest. You've elaborated on that and about how certain scenes with her can be seen as offensive to women, but it really all boils down to that. Unfortunately this kind of issue is common in most shounen manga, and I'd say Detective Conan has fared far better in that department when compared to certain others, like Orihime from Bleach, who went from being a fairly fun, cute female lead to a plot device who's only role in the story is to heal people so they can go fight some more and get beat up again (seriously, she barely even functions a even a love interest anymore). Compared to that Ran's role has not degenerated that much. She has plenty of depth and can be a wonderful character, its just that Gosho has been juggling so many characters, cases, plotlines and that DC is restrained by a status quo that Ran has been given the shaft the past few years.

(This might be off-topic, but I just thought I'd mention that I honestly think DC's characters are far more complex than Death Note's, generally speaking. I won't deny that Death Note's plot and themes are excellent material to use for analysis and the like, but aside from Light and L, the majority of the characters are pretty lacking as individual characters IMO. They were basically tools for Light to use, with very few exceptions. It was a series that was always more plot-driven than character-driven.)

Anyways, let's tackle the biggest issue you brought up, which is the sometimes sexist writing we see in regards to Ran. Again, this is fairly common in shounen manga, though I'm not saying that excuses it. As you mentioned, though, it was most likely unintentional by Gosho, as is almost always the case with other mangaka as well. Pretty much all the scenes you mentioned are sexist in their implications, not really in their actual intentions. Its likely Gosho doesn't even realize that they could be interpreted in a way offensive to women. But since I'm not the best at discussing this sort of thing, I'll refrain from elaborating any further.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the thought that Ran's only purpose as a character is to be Shinichi's love interest. If you're discussing her post-Vermouth arc, maybe I can agree with you, somewhat, but before is a totally different story. Ran was indeed introduced as Shinichi's childhood friend and love interest, but eventually her role in the story expanded beyond that. Aside from being giving her plenty of character development in plenty of cases, development that actually related to who she was as a character and not to her relationship with Shinichi, Ran also became an integral part of the Vermouth arc. Ran's importance in this plot arc should not be downplayed.

Aside from the extensive focus on her and Haibara's relationship throughout the arc, she was directly involved in both the Akai plot and the Vermouth plot. We got foreshadowing that she had met Akai before, and that was expanded on in the New York case, as was her her connection to Sharon Vineyard. Her similarity to Akemi was brought up multiple times, something which was a major factor in Haibara's relationship with her. Ran wasn't forgotten in the arc's climax either. Considering her role throughout the past 150 plus episodes since the Pisco case, it was thematically appropriate that she played a big role in the climax as well, which she definitely did, dodging sniper bullets (not the most realistic scene but who cares it was great) and saving Haibara from Vermouth. Ran literally risked her life here, and stood her ground even when Vermouth started firing bullets at her. For me, this was Ran's crowning moment of awesomeness, and it was the culmination of the complex relationship between her and Haibara that had been developing throughout the arc. and also tied back to her saving Vermouth's life, an action which saved her now. This whole thing is what really shows that Gosho can write excellent character arcs, and that Ran is indeed a great character when he lets her be one. Best thing about all this is that almost none of it has to do with Shinichi. It has to do with Ran's backstory, her relationship with Haibara, with Akai, with Vermouth, and most importantly, her as a person. All brilliant stuff.

After the Vermouth arc Ran's role noticeably shrank, after being such a big part of the preceding arc. Still, the Cellphone arc focused on basically just Conan, and maybe Haibara, to the exclusion of literally anyone else, so that was fine. Besides, we had the episode 400 suspicion arc, and that was great, and in hindsight the larger purpose of that episode is even more brilliant (have Conan get two phones which are likely key to the Akai fake his death plan). I any case, I really feel like Gosho doesn't get enough credit for at least trying to give Ran some kind of purpose in each arc. Regardless of your opinion on the actual execution, people should at least acknowledge the effort, because he did.

Now, his solution for fitting Ran into the Kir arc probably wasn't the best (have Eisuke as a potential love rival) so yeah...but I think Ran's role in the Bourbon arc has been far more interesting. Aside from episodes 592-593, which were indeed not up to par to Gosho's usual stuff and were blatantly offensive (although that whole period in the late late 500s was just a weak spot for Detective Conan in general, honestly), Ran's role has been growing, although very subtly. The obvious development is the London case, which ties into her realtionship story, and which I honestly really liked, especially because there was some nice drama between Shinichi and Ran and one of the most bizarre confession scenes I've ever seen (which I consider a good thing ). But the other more subtle one is her growing suspicion of Conan. This has been hinted at since the case where Ran asked about Heiji's charm (late 500s) and Conan and Shinichi's fingerprints. I've already said elsewhere why this suspicion arc is so different from the others, so I won't elaborate on that. However, considering how Ran has been collecting actual evidence this time through her observations, I think that its possible she'll be coming to a certain conclusion soon, one she will hopefully figure out on her own. Ran's developing suspicion arc has been running parallel to the main Bourbon plot for several years now, and it would make sense for both to come to a climax at the same time. One can hope...

A lot of people seem to believe that Ran won't find out Conan's identity until the very end, during or after the series climax. But then again, a lot of people believed that Shinichi's confession wouldn't happen until the end of the series, and lo and behold it happened smack dab in the London case. A lot of people believed that Gosho would drag out the whole Sato/Takagi/Shiratori drama out forever, and what do you know, it was resolved in the 500s, nearly two hundred episodes ago. And I don't think anyone seriously thought that Gosho would be daring enough to place an active, enemy BO member around Conan daily in the form of Bourbon, a plot event that has not been ignored (how could it be?) since it occurred. Basically, my point is that we don't have Gosho figured out, contrary to what some may believe. We don't know what he's planning or how he's going to write his story, so we shouldn't assume that something can't happen just because we are so used to the status quo, one that has been steadily crumbling for a while now. Maybe Ran will actually figure out Conan's identity in the Bourbon arc, and already be in the know througout the the final arc.

I was going to write more about Ran and Shinchi's relationship, but that can wait for later, I guess. Hope all my rambling above is even somewhat coherent

[k11chi]

^honestly even though I didn't like the "2nd half" of Death Note I think L is the worst character in the entire show, he has no personality whatsoever. (I don't care if you people get all butthurt over this) I can't say that Near has either but he was a coward and knew it. Most of the stuff we got to know about L came from some interview with the author, in which suddenly it was stated how L is the smartest by far, when you look at the "stats" made before, Light is smarter, L had way more experience too. (supposedly, his "intelligence" was nothing more than pure hype in the end, so whatever)

However in Manga despite everyone going around how the plot is so much important than the drawings, I think the way the artwork is executed can affect a great deal on how the characters are portrayed and the storyline/plot itself.

Have you read HunterxHunter? That's one of those action shounen that gets massive praise for the story, but when you look at the drawings... I think it could work better if it was a light novel series instead.

So I think the art difference in Death Note is massively better than DC, especially in the Anime, and the way the characters look affect their... overall characteristics

I don't care much about character development because for some reason everyone has been talking about it on every freaking site lately like it's the most important thing, when short stories have no need for character development, how about rather develop the plots and storylines you have? And why always give characters the most cookie cutter personality and then go about it like it's a masterpiece when the character gets development, or is a mess?... Like most action shounen, Attack on Titan was most hyped anime of the year, it's good. the characters aren't. The manga has the most inconsistent art i've seen where characters look different every chapter and it's monthly... Cage of Eden finished last year, it was amazing. The characters were terribad, again


Anyway as for Ran I think what I could see as a bad thing is that she's physically powerful instead of mentally, so when she's with Sonoko, Sonoko having that fiery attitude normally, Ran is more.. unnoticeable pretty much

Yes what your saying about Gosho makes sense, and now that we have a break for Heiji case Im going to pray to god that we will see more of the Hattori family, last time we had the Vampire Mansion case, which was just purely a normal case, nothing character related. Gosho doesn't reuse these things in row for the character arcs so please god give me Heizou in the next case.

Actually yeah, the Vampire Mansion case had some pretty fantastic background art, hints in the artwork and important details so that's one of the highlights in DCs art that I didn't remember, also another thing I gotta give props to Gosho is that he has meaningful panels and long pages(even if you don't like the content) opposed to something like pages of big words only, reused flashbacks, copy/pasted moments, 2/3 panel pages, which make the chapters extremely short

[Juzagal]

Ouch.

[kkslider5552000]

I dont really dislike her... Honestly I think Ran in chapter 1 was used as a template for SO MANY ecchi series (dark haired girl that does martial arts with tight ass and pushing personality or whatever) and even before DC there existed some of those, so that's definitely a + where that went
But what I dont like isn't her normal girl persona but
actually I gotta think about that sec

Well true, but it isn't like being above ecchi character stereotypes is some great challenge or anything. That would be like praising a rock band for being better than Creed, you would hope so.

People bringing up the hints that she seems to maybe know his identity...yeah, they've been hinting at that for years now, and this would be the 5th time we've used this story. Unless I actually see that go anywhere, I really don't care about it.

[Misztina]

It's great that you have brought up this question, I think, time to time we just have deal with Gosho's way of treating Ran.

Her character is too much cornered. Okay, she is the "big sister" type, according to Gosho who is fond of these type of girls. But her personality isn't coming through. She was strong in mind, to figure out that Conan is Shinichi, strong in soul to bear with waiting him to tell her before Desperate Revival and she is strong physically too.
I definitely felt like her and Shinichi's situation was perfectly pictured in the scene from the "Missing mother with a mole"-case part one (chapter 401), where they were likened to a TV movie pair. And from this point on it just got ridiculously flat. The confession in London was sweet, but also very weird. Ran actually squeezed a confession from Shinichi. Now it is supposed to be her time to confess her feelings, however... does she know Shinichi? Or what he is dealing with? Nope. Their relationship doesn't work and won't work if Ran is kept in the dark too much. She (and Shinichi too) cannot always rely on Vermouth's good heart towards them.
Ran is able to, and she should be a real partner to Shinichi. I don't think Shinichi is being "sextister" than an average 17 year old boy/guy. Obviously one has a blind eye for their love interest. He thinks of her as a damsell in distres and that is why the story is focusing on her being very naiv and need for for help. Other characters already realized that Ran has some good stuff underneath, she is just being a good girl, as if it was a sort of socially role for her. So, my point is, that Shinichi's point of view of everything, including Ran, is the story's point of view for most of the time.

For Ran to act differently we need to get rid of Shinichi/Conan. Like before the Halloween Party case, when Conan was focussed on Haibara and Vermouth and lived at Agasa's, Ran, a bit behind the scenes, started to act on her own. She went as far as investigating Jodie from her car. It's like Conan's (and Shinichi's)presence put her into the "sleep-mode". I don't know whether this is intentional on Gosho's side or not. If it is, then it is brilliant, if not, it is a lucky funny thing. So I hope Conan gets stuck in a BO prison and Ran gets her act together and smashes in there and kicks BO's a&# so hard, that Gin would knee in front of her begging to stop and gives up everything.
This won't happen however I hope we get rid of Conan for a few chapters so Ran could acctually be herself.
But if it is like this, I mean that Ran is "oppressed" when Conan/Shinichi is around, isn't that a bad relationship? No wonder people ship Shinichi x Shiho, they are more equal and normal. And actually have the chemistry.

So we just have to wait for the character development of Ran, maybe for the 20th anniversary?

[k11chi]

The way Ran was in "The Tori's Pledge of Monkeys and Rakes" was just awful, but in a story like Death Note, where you apparently go for the good characters, can you really say Misa Amane was better?

[kkslider5552000]

The way Ran was in "The Tori's Pledge of Monkeys and Rakes" was just awful, but in a story like Death Note, where you apparently go for the good characters, can you really say Misa Amane was better?

I've heard some people complain about Death Note being very sexist so there is that. Honestly, most of my thoughts going into Death Note are the exact same praise everyone gives Death Note. Which is probably why I don't make long essays about Death Note.

But her character was far more important for the plot and far more interesting things come from that at least. Especially compared to post-Vermouth arc DC.

[sonoci]

Here we go! This is a topic that I'm quite passionate about (anything with characters and/or subjective stuff) so warning:

This is gonna be long.

I'm going to put my replies to separate posts in spoiler boxes, to make things easier.

Spoiler: User 4869

OMG TLDR.

OK. I promise to gradually read this. But without read I say this.
People have certain attributes they like or dislike. One thing we can agree with is Ran cries easily, but whether this mean she s adorable or annoying depend on the people. So dont get work up too much by that

(From a person who worked up so much about a certain character)

I actually forgot about the Ran crying thing being something that people don't tend to like, and I don't believe that was even brought up in the essay.

Also, not sure how to say this, but when there's a huge chunk of text it's usually best to read the text before replying as a reply made before reading can end up a) not applying (Ran crying wasn't brought up at all) or b) already being addressed in the text.

It's not exactly a bad thing, per se, but it's just something I've noticed

Ps2(Evidently, I can stop editing). I think this thread should be named "What do you think about how Ran is portrayed" or something along the line.

I agree that this might be a good idea, but I'm curious why you'd say so. Is the current title misleading? Does it cause a gut reaction?

Spoiler: red.orchid

I genuinely hated the Tori case as well, with Ran actually believing in the stupid fortune and only fighting back, finding out that it wasn't meant for her >_< (the case was boring, which didn't really help).

It's good to see that you along with others (User 4869, slider, myself) don't really like that case. Now, there would be nothing wrong if someone did happen to like it, but the implications of Ran's actions in that case...are not good.

I really really dislike her to be portrayed as a damsel in distress in almost all Movies, not to mention her animation in OPs and EDs and such always makes a negative connotation.

Not only is it a negative connotation, it's arguably against her character. In the actual manga cases, Ran isn't in trouble nearly as much as the movies/OPs/EDs would have you to believe, and when she IS in trouble, she can usually get herself out of it. Heck, I remember in the early Clock Mansion case (where those two guys were trying to find some jeweled watch) when one of the thieves grabbed her, Kogoro and Conan looked concerned but that concern wasn't for Ran. They were basically like "Whoa dude, unless you have a death wish you should let her go!". It wasn't "Oh no, Ran needs help!" they were aware that she could handle it...and lately it seems that not only has the audience and Gosho forgotten that, the characters have too.

Shinichi has somehow forgotten that Ran is pretty capable of protecting herself and for some reason has the thought that he has to protect her. This actually plays into sexism as the thought "Girls have to be protected" is a reoccurring problem. Can girls be protected? Yes, they can. Can girls get a hand in a tough situation? Yes, they can. Do they need protection, even if they've proven capable otherwise? No, and the thought that they need it, especially after proving they don't, is sexist.

Now, Shinichi thinking this way isn't the problem, as strange as that sounds. His sexism actually arguably makes him more complex and interesting. Characters can be sexist without there being a problem. The problem lies in how the series portrays their sexism, and the reason this is actually a problem in DC is that Shinichi's sexism is almost always played in a positive light. The whole "chivalry" thing is portrayed as sweet, despite it being unnecessary. I'd really like there to be a scene where Ran flat-out tells him that she's capable of handling herself.

I don't like her to be that obsessed with Shinichi either, strangely. How could she know he's the best for her without trying to date other boys? She avoids getting acquainted with other boys and she's not even married to Shinichi yet!

For me, it's not even the fact that she hasn't tried to get closer to other boys, it's the fact that she doesn't seem to focus on her own life at all.

As an example of this, despite it not being canon, the OVA "Stranger in Ten Years" is a good example of how poisonous the perception of Ran can be. I actually brought it up while talking with slider, so I'll just quote what I said there:

"It was a dream, yeah, but even then seeing her wait ten years for him...was almost somehow expected. There wasn't even really any hint that she tried to move on. I know it was a dream that Conan/Shinichi had that wasn't even Gosho's writing, but it did show that outside sources thought that this was something that Ran might do...even as an adult.

Viewers watched, and many agreed. Many even, myself included the first time I watched, found it sweet.

But something like that being believable and "sweet" is actually kind of toxic. For Ran, a 27-year-old woman in the dream, to wait ten years for a childhood/teenage crush and not move on - especially since he had hurt her - is really kind of horrible.

It may not be canon, but it does show that much of the fanbase (again, myself included at first) didn't find anything strange about Ran not having anything else going on in her life for ten years. Like...how was her karate going? What even was her job? She literally had nothing going on in her life (again in that dream) other than waiting for him. That...is a sad existence, even in a dream."

That makes her so so unreal in this series, and I guess that's the reason Shinichi always takes her feelings for granted, which I dislike.

What's even more unreal is that Ran, in the end, would most definitely forgive Shinichi almost immediately for the things he's put her through. It's one thing to forgive him - that's believable, people make mistakes, they're flawed, things happen - but the fact that I'm almost 100% certain Shinichi will almost have no repercussions for what he put Ran through - and arguably for no reason at all (really, you think the BO won't get to her if you don't tell her?) - is absolutely horrible. It's a horrible message for adults and children alike, and it'll serve to undermine Ran's character while missing out on fantastic opportunity for Shinichi's development.

As it stands, Shinichi and Ran's relationship is actually really toxic. Not only is it slowly overtaking Ran's life, it hasn't really taught Shinichi any lessons. I used to ship the pairing, but that was back when Ran would scold Shinichi and tell him off - it seemed that Ran was a good counter to his flaws. But now Ran almost seems to be feeding his flaws, and that's not good at all. There are many ways that their relationship could turn healthy again, but I sadly doubt Gosho will go in that direction.

Spoiler: googleearth

Now, the sexism thing is something that I've noticed as well, but not just I'm terms of Ran. Characters like Sonoko, Kazuha are also depicted in a way that you could easily accuse Gosho of being a sexist. I actually have read people arguing that, and I believe their points have merit.

As someone who believes that Sonoko and Kazuha aren't actually portrayed in a sexist light, I'm interested in reading some of the points you've seen surrounding that. In exchange, I'll put my argument forth (at least for Sonoko's case) on why she actually (and possibly surprisingly) isn't portrayed in a sexist manner:

(again, quoted from the conversation I had with slider)

"For instance, take Sonoko. She's got quite a few stereotypes to her. Dad's little girl, obsessed with boys, loves fashion, etc. etc. However, Sonoko is a great character. She doesn't take shit from anyone, though she can understandably be afraid if someone attacks her. She acts selfish at times, but also shows great care and affection to those that are close to her.

It's sad, but Sonoko is more of a complex character than Ran is. Because she's allowed to be herself. Her attitude is not like it is because she's "supposed to" be that way, she's the way she is because she wants to be.

And I think that's part of the sexism problem here with Ran. Going back to the backbone I mentioned - "allow women to be what they want to" - for a while now Ran has not been allowed to be herself. Her actions almost completely revolve around Shinichi, which leaves her restricted, which is where the sexism comes from I think."

But yes, if you have any good points about how Sonoko/Kazuha/anyone else are portrayed in a sexist way, I would really love to read it. I'm the type that would prefer not to gloss over any sexism, so if I've missed some I'd be grateful if you could point it out

The reasons why it can feel as if certain characters are for some reason "inferior" is because they tend not to contribute to the main thing in this series: deductions and solving crimes. All the detectives in Detective Conan that sometimes help Conan or Shinichi or enter a deduction showdown with him are male (Heiji, Kaito Kid, sometimes Okiya points out important things) and Shinichi/Conan himself is also male, obviously. The first and thus far only time Gosho decided to change that pattern is when he introduced Sera, who I agree is one of the greatest characters Gosho has created, and not just because she breaks the above-mentioned pattern.

It is quite the problem that a large amount of the active characters in this series are male, but there are those few females (as you mentioned Sera, Kir, Vermoth, Jodie and Sato) that do break the mold, which is at best a step forward. However, as long as side-characters are interesting and consistent, there shouldn't be much of a problem, and for the most part there isn't.

I think the problem here is that Ran has been pushed into a passive role. She used to be a lot more active (think kicking the bad guys butt, helping with demonstrating the deduction, actively searching for Akemi when she thought she was dead, etc). It's gotten to the point that if Ran sudden gets active again (the convenience store case with her friend, the airplane case) it's seen as strange, despite it actually (arguably) being more in-character for Ran to be active.

Which is the problem: she's not allowed to be herself/active any more, lest she be seen as strange.

To be fair, there are quite a few strong female characters as well. Kir, Vermoth, Jodie and Sato come to mind. However, all but Sato appear mostly in cases relevant to the overall plot, and therefore not nearly as often as Ran, Sonoko or even Kazuha. And also, I don't believe you can somehow offset portraying characters in a sexist way by just also having strong female characters as well - no matter how many there are or how strong they are.

I think there's a problem with the logic here that I see quite often. Mostly dealing with the phrase "strong female characters". I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding here with the term, so I'll quote (again) something I said in the discussion with slider I had:

"

I'm sometimes unsure about how female characters are written, first of all. I tend to wonder, is it actually sexist that this character is like this or is this character...just like this and that's ok/tolerable at times even if she's not some strong female character or whatever?

This line of thinking is really great, and is actually one of the first steps to understanding feminism. Asking these questions is what people need to do more often, and finding these answers help further understand just what feminism is aiming for. I'll answer your question here, though I'll admit I'm no "feminist professor" but I think I can give a good enough answer to clear up some of your uncertainty.

A lot of (mostly male but can be female too) writers - whether it's a book, a comic, a show, what have you - get confused at the term "strong female character". When women ask for a "strong female character", they don't necessarily mean "a character that is a physically/mentally strong female". What they actually mean is "a female that has a strong character". In other words, what they're asking for is complexity. A good quote to consider that may help clarify:

Screw writing “strong” women. Write interesting women. Write well-rounded women. Write complicated women. Write a woman who kicks ass, write a woman who cowers in a corner. Write a woman who’s desperate for a husband. Write a woman who doesn’t need a man. Write women who cry, women who rant, women who are shy, women who don’t take no shit, women who need validation and women who don’t care what anybody thinks. THEY ARE ALL OKAY, and all those things could exist in THE SAME WOMAN. Women shouldn’t be valued because we are strong, or kick-ass, but because we are people. So don’t focus on writing characters who are strong. Write characters who are people.

~taken from this post on tumblr if you'd like to read the rest of it

The backbone of feminism is essentially "allow women be what they want". In other words, there is not a problem if there is a physically weak female character who lives up to most female stereotypes, strange as that sounds."

I've actually seen the argument too that by giving a female character physical strength for no reason, it's actually moving backwards and becoming sexist - because there can be the implication that "she's not a good character unless she can kick some ass" which is where the "strong female character" problem derives from. Writers focus too much on the "strong" and not enough on the "character". Gosho is no exception.

I don't really agree with this, though:

[...]
Shinichi himself can come across as a sexist character as well. A major example of that would be the last Eisuke scene where Conan’s identity is revealed to him. Ignoring that Eisuke had known this for a while, Conan reveals who he really is because Eisuke wanted to confess to Ran and Conan refused to let that happen. It implies that Shinichi won’t allow her to deal with that pretty harmless situation. But the thing is that I’m still ok with that scene. Shinichi is jealous at best, sexist at worst but while not intentional I’m sure, that fits pretty well with Shinichi/Conan. [...]

The implication never was that Shinichi is sexist here, but rather Eisuke.

As someone who had problems with the scene, I'm going to point out that yes there are also implications of Eisuke being sexist but there are also those that Shinichi is being sexist. The nature of implications is that they change from person to person, and they all have merit. So if anyone at all saw implications of something in a scene, then that implication exists.

And it's funny because you actually sort of prove that there are implications of Shinichi being sexist in that scene.

The idea that he can confess to Ran only after getting Shinichi's permission, and if he's turned down he isn't allowed to tell her at all is one that Eisuke has come up with, not Shinichi. Conan just replied to the question the way that he saw fit. Granted, it would have been more progressive and at the same time would have protected his identity, if he'd just said something along the lines of "Why do I (Conan) care about what's going on with your love-triangle? I don't have any stake in this." But I don't really see any sexism in the the way he actually decided to respond.

There is (at least through my eyes) heavy sexism on Shinichi's part in this scene. For one thing, you actually point out that Shinichi did not have to answer the way he did. As you said "he replies in the way he saw fit"...but that reply plays into the sexism of the sentence, and, as you said, Shinichi saw that as a fit way to answer. He did not see the sexism, he responded instinctively. His response and the fact that he did not choose to answer in a non-sexist way, heavily implies he is sexist.

Especially since his answer revealed his identity. One way to look at it is that Shinichi was so convinced that he had to "protect" Ran, so crudely possessive of her in that scene, that he saw it fit to reveal his identity to Eisuke just to "protect" her.

For a better read on what I thought of that scene and where I'm coming from, I would suggest reading this post I wrote a long time back. Most of my feelings in that post still apply.

As far as Ran knowing Conan's identity is concerned, I've mentioned in another thread that I see hints it might happen in the next couple years. But while it would change a lot of the dynamics of cases where Ran is involved, I don't think that would change all that much of what you mentioned you don't like about the portrayal of Ran's character. If it does happen, I hope Gosho has Ran figure it out herself with Conan this time being unable to employ a clever trick to somehow convince her that her suspicions are once again wrong rather than letting Conan/Shinichi just tell her.

It would be quite bad for her to just be told. But the thing is that the dynamics would Ran would become more active if she were to find out herself. As I mentioned, she's become passive, which is part of the problem, because it's not really in her original character to be passive.

Will respond to more later, but for now I need to eat and do homework :x

[k11chi]

The way Ran was in "The Tori's Pledge of Monkeys and Rakes" was just awful, but in a story like Death Note, where you apparently go for the good characters, can you really say Misa Amane was better?

I've heard some people complain about Death Note being very sexist so there is that. Honestly, most of my thoughts going into Death Note are the exact same praise everyone gives Death Note. Which is probably why I don't make long essays about Death Note.

But her character was far more important for the plot and far more interesting things come from that at least. Especially compared to post-Vermouth arc DC.

Meh I guess the complaints are because of that... . .. . . I can't remember the name..... Yes, the last moment with Naomi Misora, which was either one of the best moments for some. However for me it was just over-the-top offensive in all ways, using this... character (not at that moment.. was like a robot) as a -not even a plot- device

But she wasn't the supposed lead female, Misa was... She had alot of importance to the plot driven story, but those moments she had and the things she did were just what the hell, bro?

But yes it's not really anything new or special in pretty much any shounen (except that Naomi Misora part, it's too much)