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Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 26th, 2013, 3:31 pm
by Citan
I've been wondering something ever since the Bourbon Arc started. The previous plot arcs all felt completely thought out. The plot twists made sense and were alluded to by previous events. Not so with the Bourbon Arc. Ever since his "Who Is Bourbon?" plot backfired it seems like Gosho has been ass-pulling plot twists ever since then to salvage the arc.

I say it "backfired" not because it sucked, but because it ended up being too easy. Gosho seemed to be trying to recreate the confusion of the Vermouth arc and it didn't work. Everyone easily figured out who Bourbon was, and everyone knew who Sera's brother was.
Spoiler:
Now suddenly Sera has a second brother never before alluded to in her previous appearances. He may have planned that form the beginning, but it just feels like Gosho pulled this out of nowhere to keep Sera mysterious and to live up to the hype of being "the most important character since Haibara".
I really hope I'm wrong about all this, but the the whole Bourbon arc has had such a different feel to it. normally every plot arc had one or two appropriately timed twists that you never saw coming (unless your name is Chekhov MacGuffin), but made total sense and seemed obvious on reflection. The Bourbon Arc seems to be far more scatter shot and has been rapid-firing plot twists at us over and over in hopes of restoring confusion and mystery to the proceedings. I can't help but have this sense that Gosho is desperately trying to get back out in front of the fans. I hope that's not the case.

Anyway, I just wondered what the rest of you thought about this.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 26th, 2013, 3:38 pm
by kkslider5552000
...er...yes...and no.

I personally think Gosho is too used to his own series...being what it is I guess I would say...to be panicking too much over everything but I think it's pretty likely that Gosho rewrote quite a bit of the arc during that long plotless part of it. Probably because Gosho has high standards for himself. So instead of making another 3 year arc, he improved it just enough so that it's the same exact quality when you take into account how absurdly and unnecessarily long it is. How ironic.

But I think it should be pointed out that the vast majority of Conan's audience are your average Japanese person who doesn't care at all about the plot, barring the general premise. I assume anyway. Probably comparable to how many Batman fans don't actually know about the events from the comics specifically.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 26th, 2013, 8:42 pm
by Kudo Shinchi
Interesting discussion. Well, to start, I agree completely that all of DC's previous story arcs were clearly planned down to the last detail before they were even written. Every twist, revelation, action, etc. felt completely natural and fit in with had been already established. The story arcs always had a "solid" feel, as they never felt that they were being slapped together as they moved along. The amount of foreshadowing was impressive, as was the coherent and structured way events unfolded. There are very few anime series I've seen that have had story arcs as solidly written. Gosho had it down to an art.

Now, the Bourbon arc. No, I don't think Gosho is panicking. The revelations regarding Scar Akai, Bourbon, Sera, and Okiya were as solid as expected, and fit in snugly with the clues we had been given. Even the more subtle hints/plot developments had been hinted before. For example, Okiya's line "Don't make that kind of face" that led Haibara to suspect him was first heard from Akai back in Clash of Red and Black, so it was basically a Checkhov's Gun waiting to be fired, and it was. Even the whole thing with Okiya covering his neck and possibly hiding something that could prove his identity was very subtly hinted in how Akai always wore long-collar shirts as well. All the mysteries regarding Sera, such as how its possible she has met Conan in the past, were hinted at in her first appearances, with the way she knew Conan's name before meeting him, blushes around him, and keeps mentioning her mom to Ran. Ran's developing suspicion arc was clearly planned from the start, what with Conan's fingerprints on the charm being used to prove the fake Shinichi was false, and how she's gotten suspicious of that. All the remarkabe planning and foreshadowing that we know Gosho for is still present in this arc. I agree he might have added a few minor plot points later that he didn't originally plan for, but overall I do believe the arc is unfolding more or less the way he planned it.

Fun fact: Sera's existence was very subtly hinted at in Clash of Red and Black; the FBI admitted Rena to the hospital under the guise of her being Akai's sister. So yeah, Sera didn't come out of nowhere.

I have more to say, so I'll post it later since I'm in a hurry right now.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 28th, 2013, 1:32 am
by Pmofmalasia
Fun fact about Sera that hasn't been mentioned yet (one which Wakarimashita loves) is that Sera wasn't ever actually planned from the beginning, she was a result of the Detective Koushien (sp?) case in which the female high school detective was the culprit. Apparently fans liked her character so much that the editor asked Gosho to create a similar character for the audience. So that probably says a bit about how much the Bourbon arc was planned out, given Sera's involvement. That's not to say that Gosho completely threw something together on the fly, I wouldn't be surprised if the length of the arc was partially for him to get the story in order so that he could incorporate this new character. There were probably also parts of the Bourbon arc that were already planned, but instead of scrapping or delaying them, he tried to work Sera in instead.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 28th, 2013, 10:34 am
by k11chi
Pretty funny if that's true because I liked the girl too...
Honestly though I wouldn't be worried about it

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 28th, 2013, 12:01 pm
by bluekaitou1412
I admit I did raise my eyebrow at the subplot of the
Spoiler: *Manga Spoiler*
"other brother".

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 28th, 2013, 12:03 pm
by kkslider5552000
Pmofmalasia wrote:Fun fact about Sera that hasn't been mentioned yet (one which Wakarimashita loves) is that Sera wasn't ever actually planned from the beginning, she was a result of the Detective Koushien (sp?) case in which the female high school detective was the culprit. Apparently fans liked her character so much that the editor asked Gosho to create a similar character for the audience. So that probably says a bit about how much the Bourbon arc was planned out, given Sera's involvement. That's not to say that Gosho completely threw something together on the fly, I wouldn't be surprised if the length of the arc was partially for him to get the story in order so that he could incorporate this new character. There were probably also parts of the Bourbon arc that were already planned, but instead of scrapping or delaying them, he tried to work Sera in instead.
This was all clearly for the best as Sera is the best new character Gosho has created in the past decade.

Gosho's originally planned plots and characters

Posted: September 28th, 2013, 4:11 pm
by Chekhov MacGuffin
Pmofmalasia wrote:Fun fact about Sera that hasn't been mentioned yet (one which Wakarimashita loves) is that Sera wasn't ever actually planned from the beginning, she was a result of the Detective Koushien (sp?) case in which the female high school detective was the culprit. Apparently fans liked her character so much that the editor asked Gosho to create a similar character for the audience. So that probably says a bit about how much the Bourbon arc was planned out, given Sera's involvement. That's not to say that Gosho completely threw something together on the fly, I wouldn't be surprised if the length of the arc was partially for him to get the story in order so that he could incorporate this new character. There were probably also parts of the Bourbon arc that were already planned, but instead of scrapping or delaying them, he tried to work Sera in instead.


This was supposed to be a short reply to your comment, but then it metastasized. My apologies.

In my opinion, Gosho had very few things planned in advance. If you follow his interviews you get this sense that Gosho very quickly developed a light plot suitable for a short series, but then had to suddenly build on the preexisting facts when he realized Detective Conan was going to run for a long time.

Here are a list of the plot elements that I think Gosho planned from early on:
1) Shinichi shrinking into Conan and moving in with his love interest Ran and fixing up Kogoro’s business. Shinichi will turn back after defeating the Organization.
2) The boss, his identity, his gimmicks, and his goal.
3) Gin and Vodka as henchmen; basically a bad guy Holmes and Watson set to act as the hands of the boss - who could not appear yet.
4) Shrunken Sherry the drug creator who would hide among the Detective Boys.
5) Vermouth, the disguise artist with an aging problem, hunting Sherry. She gets close to the protagonists.
6) Characters to flavor the storyline but not necessarily connected to the BO plot. They include Agasa (gadget maker), Sonoko (Ditzy Ran accompaniment), Hattori Heiji (The Hakuba-like friendly rival), the Kudo parents, maybe Eri, and the basic police like Megure and Yokomizo.

1) and 2) I think haven’t changed significantly since Gosho established the basics in his initial brainstorm session. Gosho said he came up with the plot very quickly, so it is easy to see why Detective Conan resembles Magic Kaito in many regards. Both are about a smart teen boy with a secret identity whose love interest is a girl with an incompetent father related to law-enforcement, and both have a mysterious organization with a goal to get youth/everlasting life/whatever. No, I don’t think the boss has appeared yet in DC yet. Note the boss never appeared in MK either even though it was much more childish a series. To me that says that Gosho, even back then, wanted an unknown figure. I am guessing this is the case in DC because the boss has a “gimmick” that Conan will need to figure out in order to find him, such as looking like a 7 year old.

3) Gin and Vodka have definitely changed. In a recent special chapter accompaniment, Gosho mentioned that all codenamed agents are supposed to be at equal levels. Early on, you can see this equality. Both Gin and Vodka do dirty gruntwork – handing off bombs, making deals, doing lookout. Gin doesn’t order Vodka around nearly as much back then, and he drives his own car. However, as the ranks of the Black Organization expanded, Gosho has abandoned that equality concept and put seniority divisions between codenamed members. Bourbon needs Vermouth’s permission to look at Akai’s files. Gin orders everyone around...

4) The changes to Gosho’s Sherry plot are probably the most interesting. Sherry did indeed wind up among the detective boys but 170 chapters or so later after she was first mentioned. Why did Gosho take so long? Likely because Conan was more popular than expected, so Gosho couldn’t rush the story (Orders from above would be to drag it out), and then the animators screwed up Akemi’s death in the anime on top of it. Gosho had to modify the existing plot so that Sherry's appearance wouldn't trigger events that led to the end of Detective Conan.
The delay had several side-effects. I think Haibara's plot was originally intended contain a more significant rivalry with Ran for Shinichi's affections than she shows in the current manga. Basically, I think Gosho intended Haibara to be more like Akako. This was shelved because RanxShinichi developments occurred while Haibara was sidelined and it would be more difficult to insert her in between them smoothly.
I think delaying Sherry also delayed and altered Vermouth’s appearance as well, since Vermouth is intimately tied to Shiho.

5) Gosho planned for Haibara to appear in the story first and Vermouth would then follow after her. The major problem was that Haibara was delayed. I think Vermouth was supposed to be Yoko Okino, but that changed when The Haibara Delay happened and the plot was modified to allow Conan to run on longer (Perhaps to accommodate Jodie's story and the ties to Yukiko.) There were multiple suspicious points about Yoko in her first chapter that fit with Gosho intending her to be Vermouth. See the spoiler box for a copypasta of Texascoffeegirl's theory. I don't support it at all, but does a good job of showing all the major details and why they implicate Yoko (her post was ruined by forum move).
Spoiler:
It's the first and probably last time, I open a thread. I am a fan of Detective Conan for over a decade now. Just a couple months ago, when we moved to our new home, I found my old DC mangas. Out of boredom and curiosity, I started reading the first Volumes again, caught the old “who is the big boss”-fever and ended up reading them all in a row. Yeah, all of them. Took me two weeks. Now I'm here, with a cup of coffee and in the mood, to share my funny and weird thoughts. No, I wont discuss what was discussed thousands of times in other forums.

I base my upcoming gibberish only on the mangas and the infamous interview Aoyama's in 2006 http://www.animey.net/specials/42 , where Aoyama said something that made me thinking. No, not the whole “Ai will be surprised'-whatever thing.
At some point, Aoyama was asked about the success of Detective Conan and whether he expected DC to last so many years.
No, of course, he didn't. How could he? Indeed, he thought DC will end after a couple of months or Volumes. So far, nothing unusual, but while reading the first chapters of DC, I realized: when those chapters were published, Aoyama had thought the story to end soon. Why is it important? Because that means Aoyama most likely dropped some important hints pointing to the BO very early. Actually, he dropped maybe 'one hint' within the first six chapters.

(BTW, reading all 700something chapters in a row, I have the impression, that maybe a year or a little bit more has passed in the story line. I know, sounds unbelievable, but that is the impression you get if you read everything in a row and not in a decade...)

We can assume, that Aoyama is a professional (lol, it's really late), meaning he had a rough story outline from the very beginning. The concept of Conan, Kogoro, the BO, them being an international organization leading at some point to the US. It helps that Shinichi's parents lived in the US and that being mentioned right away in the first chapter. It opened the international doors early. And before I go back to that maybe'hint', let me emphasize one of Aoyama's drawing styles: smoking. Certain characters or character-types smoke in the story. The cool (like Akai, Matsuda and some suspects) and the dangerous (like Akai and most of the BO, some other murderers). Well, and Kogoro. But he is another story. I think, we have seen pretty much all BO members smoking and drinking alcohol. In the DC universe, the purely innocent don't smoke and drink.

Which brings me to my key figure, my Irene Adler, so to say: Yoko Okino.

Yeah, keep laughing but keep on reading, I bet you will be a bit surprised.

It starts in chapter 6 Vol. 1, three days after the BO 'killed' Kudo Shinichi. Conan is eager to do something, but is advised by Prof. Agasa to keep his head down. Agasa: “If they find out, your body never showed up, they'll come looking for you. Just wait until then. You mustn't get impatient and make the first move.”

Well, if I learned one thing in the DC universe, it is when a case starts with a discussion about the BO, the case most likely is about the BO. So, Conan waits for their move – and meets Yoko Okino in Kogoro's office. I think it is amazing, that this woman/minor character was introduced so early, but than again it is not important. Something else is. Remember the first Yoko Okino case. The stalker who was killed/committed suicide in her apartment but turns out it was her former boyfriend from high school? So, short before Yoko, Kogoro, Conan and Co go to Yoko's apartment, Yoko's manager says to super-excited Kogoro to keep his voice down, cause nobody knows that Yoko Okino lives in that huge apartment complex. It is a secret. Indeed, Yoko states she moved to this apartment secretly cause she wanted to get away from the stalker. Since it was kept a secret, we can assume Yoko wasn't running around and telling people were she lives. We can assume, she didn't have many guests. The character of Yoko Okino seems to be the one of a beautiful, innocent (like Kogoro always states) young woman aka successful actress, scared, you know the story. The group enters her apartment, finds the murdered stalker and makes the first suspect, a female actress co-worker of Yoko, to come by to the apartment, too. She makes herself suspicious cause she uses that statue that was indeed a lighter and so on and so on. That is not the point. The point are three things that are not 'right' in Yoko Okino's apartment.

1.First of all. The lighter statue is the Statue of Liberty. Why would an innocent person like Yoko Okino whom we never seen smoking have a lighter in the form of the statue of liberty? The lighter indeed looks like something people would buy as a souvenir, very specific. Was Yoko Okino in New York and brought herself a souvenir? Maybe, but bot likely, cause a non-smoker would buy something else. Unless, somebody else she knew was in New York and brought her the lighter souvenir. Somebody, who smokes, somebody who visits Yoko on a regular base and misses a lighter in her apartment... well, who do we know lived in New York at this time, smokes, comes to Japan every now and then and is a famous colleague of Yoko, by herself? Name it, you get it.

2.Which leads to me to point number two. Chapter 9, Vol. 1 page 3, there is an ashtray on the table, right in front of the couch, where the lighter was nearby. Somebody sits on the couch, using the lighter. BTW, it is the same ashtray, Conan uses to knock out Kogoro since he doesn't have the tranquilizer-watch yet.

3.When Conan uses the ashtray, it is seen, that there are three cigarettes in there. Kogoro smokes one cigarette, but he is still holding on to his cigarette. The other female suspect smokes too, but she lost her cigarette shortly after lightening it. You can see her long, unsmoked cigarette in the ashtray. That leaves two other cigarettes in the ashtray that must have been there before Kogoro, Conan and Co arrived. We can assume, that our suspicious “smoker” (hello X-files) visited Yoko Okino shortly before. Well, it might have been the female co-worker, but she was careful not to be seen in Yoko's apartment. Why would she smoke in Yoko's apartment and leaving traces that somebody was there? And Yoko didn't seem bothered at all with cigarettes in the ashtrey.

To summarize, there is this young charming and recurring actress Yoko Okino with a New York souvenir in her apartment, an astray, although she doesn't smoke or smokes secretly (which would make her even more suspicious in the DC-universe). She contacts Mouri three days after Kudo was murdered and no body was found. She comes well along with Ran. Too many coincidences come together in one case, if you ask me.

And it doesn't stop there.

In Vol. 10, chap. 5, Shinichi Kudo appears again after drinking the Chines. alcohol. Vol.11 chap. 4 Conan is in serious trouble because of Kogoro who suspects Conan, but Kogoro is suddenly distracted by Yoko Okino who pops up at the Nichiura TV studio to see Kogoro. It is not a big thing, I know, but I think it is worth mentioning that she pops up at Nichiura TV, saying she works there and wanted to see Kogoro.

Throughout the story, Yoko Okino pops up on TV, radio, poster and so on and so on.

Vol. 48, chap. 9 page 3. When Yoko Okino uses her cell phone in front of Conan, Conan has a flashback of Vermouth. He blames it on him getting paranoid. What if he's not?

Same Vol. Same chapter, it is Yoko Okino who introduces Rena Mizunashi to Kogoro Mori, saying they are friends/colleagues. For crying out load, it was her, who invited Kogoro to the TV studio in the first place and made it possible, that they ran into Rena Mizunashi. Page 4, she literary drags Rena to Kogoro. It was Yoko who suggested to Kogoro to stop by at Rena's apartment. And for some reason, she mentions that she wont tag along with them cause she has work to do. How convenient is that? And has anybody ever paid attention to the older guy on page 5, who shows obvious interest in the conversation on the next table? Older dude, black suit, smoking?

Vol.53 chap. 552 page 16, Kogoro states he got many requests from Yoko Okino.

Chap. 562 page 7, Kogoro calls Yoko … he has her phone number.

Chap. 591 page 3, Yoko Okino doesn't trigger Ai's BO sense.

Chap. 595, Kogoro is watching TV, Yoko Okino sings, while she sings, crows are noisy outside … Kogoro starts humming the seven children song... this really is just coincidence...

… but throw everything together and keep in mind that Irene Adler was a beautiful actress, somebody who tricked Holmes till the very last second of the case... .


Is there somebody else out there, who thinks that this is weird (I mean Yoko, not me writing a novel at two o'clock in the morning.)?
If you think about it, Yoko would have made a much more interesting Vermouth than Chris because Yoko has a bigger presence in the story. Kogoro idolizes her, and her face is everywhere. Furthermore she would have been a real sleeper agent, one who Conan already knew from before rather than a random case suspect who is easier to pick out of the crowd.

6) Note that many of the flavor characters I listed have plot connections. Agasa links to Atsushi and Elena. Yukiko attaches to Vermouth. Hattori was caught up in the Eisuke and Kir investigation. The police now have a link to Bourbon. I don't think they were meant to originally have major plot connections (Yukiko aside), but because they were there first, when Gosho needed to build they were more likely to be roped into the plot.

Now that I covered what I think Gosho had planned from the beginning, I'll list what elements I think Gosho came up with in the middle of story.
1) Chris Vineyard as a replacement for Yoko. I explained this above. That said, Sharon Vineyard could have been planned from the beginning, which explains Yoko's Statue of liberty. The original story would have been when Sharon "died" she became Yoko.
2) Kaitou Kid, but not Toichi. I believe Kaitou Kid was meant to only be a fun crossover as was mentioned in an interview (No reference though so take my memory with a grain of salt please). I think Toichi's connection to Yukiko and Vermouth was planned as a cameo from the start.
3) Some of the FBI, maybe all of them. I think America was meant to be involved given the American connection through Yukiko. If any FBI were initially planned, I would pick Jodie first as a red herring for Vermouth. Akai and James Black are not essential to the rivalry between Vermouth and Jodie. Akai is connected to Akemi's death, but Akemi's motive for trying to leave the Organization was vague in the first place, so Akai could easily be an afterthought.
4) Araide might not have been necessary for the proto Vermouth arc, so I am not sure if he was created originally. If Araide was crafted in the beginning, I would expect his case to have the slightly more violent and startling feel of one of the early cases and for his existence to have been mentioned earlier. It doesn't really feel like to me IMO. If Vermouth was Yoko, then he wouldn't be necessary - Vermouth would have already had a cover.
5) Kir, Eisuke, and all the new Black Org that appeared in FBI vs. Org.
6) Bourbon. The connection to Takagi subplot cements his plot was not fully planned from the beginning either since Takagi is originally an AO char. I could see Gosho wanting to use the name and have a Detective BO early on in DC though.

Tossed storylines
Gosho apparently does toss certain storylines.
"Aoyama said we will see Araide again in big troubles because he will make an investigation on Vermouth (in USA if I remember it well)." - This could have been dropped because Araide didn't elicit fan favoritism and he is old - an arc with a teen like Eisuke would be easier to greenlight.

Other things
I'm not sure Gosho had Bourbon and Sera's exact character planned when he started the Bourbon arc. In fact that would explain the extremely long delay between the mention of Okiya and Bourbon, and Sera and Amuro's appearance. He took that time to work out the details of how they would fit into the plot.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 10:12 am
by User 4869
@bluekaitou1412
You info is manga only, just saying.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 11:22 am
by Jd-
This is an interesting topic.

Really, I don't think Gosho is in a panic just because, realistically, he can draw this out for as long as he wants. The status quo in Conan is the everyday cases, and he can keep those rolling as long as he needs to fan out the rest of the plot for a given storyline. The recent manga addition to the storyline is... interesting, and I do wonder when he decided to add it in.
User 4869 wrote:@bluekaitou1412
You info is manga only, just saying.
Took care of it, not a problem.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 11:33 am
by Iwamoto Yuri
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Gosho planned for Haibara to appear in the story first and Vermouth would then follow after her. The major problem was that Haibara was delayed. I think Vermouth was supposed to be Yoko Okino, but that changed when The Haibara Delay happened and the plot was modified to allow Conan to run on longer (Perhaps to accommodate Jodie's story and the ties to Yukiko.) There were multiple suspicious points about Yoko in her first chapter that fit with Gosho intending her to be Vermouth. See the spoiler box for a copypasta of Texascoffeegirl's theory. I don't support it at all, but does a good job of showing all the major details and why they implicate Yoko (her post was ruined by forum move).
Spoiler:
It's the first and probably last time, I open a thread. I am a fan of Detective Conan for over a decade now. Just a couple months ago, when we moved to our new home, I found my old DC mangas. Out of boredom and curiosity, I started reading the first Volumes again, caught the old “who is the big boss”-fever and ended up reading them all in a row. Yeah, all of them. Took me two weeks. Now I'm here, with a cup of coffee and in the mood, to share my funny and weird thoughts. No, I wont discuss what was discussed thousands of times in other forums.

I base my upcoming gibberish only on the mangas and the infamous interview Aoyama's in 2006 http://www.animey.net/specials/42 , where Aoyama said something that made me thinking. No, not the whole “Ai will be surprised'-whatever thing.
At some point, Aoyama was asked about the success of Detective Conan and whether he expected DC to last so many years.
No, of course, he didn't. How could he? Indeed, he thought DC will end after a couple of months or Volumes. So far, nothing unusual, but while reading the first chapters of DC, I realized: when those chapters were published, Aoyama had thought the story to end soon. Why is it important? Because that means Aoyama most likely dropped some important hints pointing to the BO very early. Actually, he dropped maybe 'one hint' within the first six chapters.

(BTW, reading all 700something chapters in a row, I have the impression, that maybe a year or a little bit more has passed in the story line. I know, sounds unbelievable, but that is the impression you get if you read everything in a row and not in a decade...)

We can assume, that Aoyama is a professional (lol, it's really late), meaning he had a rough story outline from the very beginning. The concept of Conan, Kogoro, the BO, them being an international organization leading at some point to the US. It helps that Shinichi's parents lived in the US and that being mentioned right away in the first chapter. It opened the international doors early. And before I go back to that maybe'hint', let me emphasize one of Aoyama's drawing styles: smoking. Certain characters or character-types smoke in the story. The cool (like Akai, Matsuda and some suspects) and the dangerous (like Akai and most of the BO, some other murderers). Well, and Kogoro. But he is another story. I think, we have seen pretty much all BO members smoking and drinking alcohol. In the DC universe, the purely innocent don't smoke and drink.

Which brings me to my key figure, my Irene Adler, so to say: Yoko Okino.

Yeah, keep laughing but keep on reading, I bet you will be a bit surprised.

It starts in chapter 6 Vol. 1, three days after the BO 'killed' Kudo Shinichi. Conan is eager to do something, but is advised by Prof. Agasa to keep his head down. Agasa: “If they find out, your body never showed up, they'll come looking for you. Just wait until then. You mustn't get impatient and make the first move.”

Well, if I learned one thing in the DC universe, it is when a case starts with a discussion about the BO, the case most likely is about the BO. So, Conan waits for their move – and meets Yoko Okino in Kogoro's office. I think it is amazing, that this woman/minor character was introduced so early, but than again it is not important. Something else is. Remember the first Yoko Okino case. The stalker who was killed/committed suicide in her apartment but turns out it was her former boyfriend from high school? So, short before Yoko, Kogoro, Conan and Co go to Yoko's apartment, Yoko's manager says to super-excited Kogoro to keep his voice down, cause nobody knows that Yoko Okino lives in that huge apartment complex. It is a secret. Indeed, Yoko states she moved to this apartment secretly cause she wanted to get away from the stalker. Since it was kept a secret, we can assume Yoko wasn't running around and telling people were she lives. We can assume, she didn't have many guests. The character of Yoko Okino seems to be the one of a beautiful, innocent (like Kogoro always states) young woman aka successful actress, scared, you know the story. The group enters her apartment, finds the murdered stalker and makes the first suspect, a female actress co-worker of Yoko, to come by to the apartment, too. She makes herself suspicious cause she uses that statue that was indeed a lighter and so on and so on. That is not the point. The point are three things that are not 'right' in Yoko Okino's apartment.

1.First of all. The lighter statue is the Statue of Liberty. Why would an innocent person like Yoko Okino whom we never seen smoking have a lighter in the form of the statue of liberty? The lighter indeed looks like something people would buy as a souvenir, very specific. Was Yoko Okino in New York and brought herself a souvenir? Maybe, but bot likely, cause a non-smoker would buy something else. Unless, somebody else she knew was in New York and brought her the lighter souvenir. Somebody, who smokes, somebody who visits Yoko on a regular base and misses a lighter in her apartment... well, who do we know lived in New York at this time, smokes, comes to Japan every now and then and is a famous colleague of Yoko, by herself? Name it, you get it.

2.Which leads to me to point number two. Chapter 9, Vol. 1 page 3, there is an ashtray on the table, right in front of the couch, where the lighter was nearby. Somebody sits on the couch, using the lighter. BTW, it is the same ashtray, Conan uses to knock out Kogoro since he doesn't have the tranquilizer-watch yet.

3.When Conan uses the ashtray, it is seen, that there are three cigarettes in there. Kogoro smokes one cigarette, but he is still holding on to his cigarette. The other female suspect smokes too, but she lost her cigarette shortly after lightening it. You can see her long, unsmoked cigarette in the ashtray. That leaves two other cigarettes in the ashtray that must have been there before Kogoro, Conan and Co arrived. We can assume, that our suspicious “smoker” (hello X-files) visited Yoko Okino shortly before. Well, it might have been the female co-worker, but she was careful not to be seen in Yoko's apartment. Why would she smoke in Yoko's apartment and leaving traces that somebody was there? And Yoko didn't seem bothered at all with cigarettes in the ashtrey.

To summarize, there is this young charming and recurring actress Yoko Okino with a New York souvenir in her apartment, an astray, although she doesn't smoke or smokes secretly (which would make her even more suspicious in the DC-universe). She contacts Mouri three days after Kudo was murdered and no body was found. She comes well along with Ran. Too many coincidences come together in one case, if you ask me.

And it doesn't stop there.

In Vol. 10, chap. 5, Shinichi Kudo appears again after drinking the Chines. alcohol. Vol.11 chap. 4 Conan is in serious trouble because of Kogoro who suspects Conan, but Kogoro is suddenly distracted by Yoko Okino who pops up at the Nichiura TV studio to see Kogoro. It is not a big thing, I know, but I think it is worth mentioning that she pops up at Nichiura TV, saying she works there and wanted to see Kogoro.

Throughout the story, Yoko Okino pops up on TV, radio, poster and so on and so on.

Vol. 48, chap. 9 page 3. When Yoko Okino uses her cell phone in front of Conan, Conan has a flashback of Vermouth. He blames it on him getting paranoid. What if he's not?

Same Vol. Same chapter, it is Yoko Okino who introduces Rena Mizunashi to Kogoro Mori, saying they are friends/colleagues. For crying out load, it was her, who invited Kogoro to the TV studio in the first place and made it possible, that they ran into Rena Mizunashi. Page 4, she literary drags Rena to Kogoro. It was Yoko who suggested to Kogoro to stop by at Rena's apartment. And for some reason, she mentions that she wont tag along with them cause she has work to do. How convenient is that? And has anybody ever paid attention to the older guy on page 5, who shows obvious interest in the conversation on the next table? Older dude, black suit, smoking?

Vol.53 chap. 552 page 16, Kogoro states he got many requests from Yoko Okino.

Chap. 562 page 7, Kogoro calls Yoko … he has her phone number.

Chap. 591 page 3, Yoko Okino doesn't trigger Ai's BO sense.

Chap. 595, Kogoro is watching TV, Yoko Okino sings, while she sings, crows are noisy outside … Kogoro starts humming the seven children song... this really is just coincidence...

… but throw everything together and keep in mind that Irene Adler was a beautiful actress, somebody who tricked Holmes till the very last second of the case... .


Is there somebody else out there, who thinks that this is weird (I mean Yoko, not me writing a novel at two o'clock in the morning.)?
If you think about it, Yoko would have made a much more interesting Vermouth than Chris because Yoko has a bigger presence in the story. Kogoro idolizes her, and her face is everywhere. Furthermore she would have been a real sleeper agent, one who Conan already knew from before rather than a random case suspect who is easier to pick out of the crowd.
What if Yoko is Anokata..?
(and in Odaiba they have a small statue of liberty... so...)
User 4869 wrote:@bluekaitou1412
You info is manga only, just saying.
Isn't the forum here based on the manga now? As far as I know DCTP is no longer involved in the anime division.

Giving my own opinion now, I think Gosho knows what he's doing. He has a main plot and makes up what comes in between, I don't think that makes him rushed or panicky, he's just taking the time to develop characters and make them fit in the story, most probably because they were not planned to fit in originally, but there is evidence for that last point is there? I think the clues he gave came naturally, because sometimes things in life seem obvious to others while sometimes they come out of the blue. You can't always know everything at once can you?

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 12:08 pm
by User 4869
Isn't the forum here based on the manga now? As far as I know DCTP is no longer involved in the anime division.
There a group friendly to DCTP that take over the anime subbing. kkslider5552000 still make his (or her) anime discussion thread base on that. So the rule remain the same. Story discussion for manga and General discussion for anything else.

Turn out that Citan post also contain the same information, and is the heart of the topic LoL.



As I post on this twice. I might as well say something too.
I never notice
Spoiler:
Sera fangs
until Conan point it out. i though "Gosho ass-pull this". Then re-check previous case and saw them LoL.

Another thing is, at the moment Mystery train acr being aired. DCTP was flood with newcomers talking about the case. Guess what? Most of them never read something broadly similar to Chek theory. "Hey, that Bourbon with Vermouth (in truth: Okiya and Yukiko)". "Okiya is Bourbon/Sera is Bourbon. Kir disguise as Vermouth Etc. IIrc Chek rates this arc a little easier that Vermouth arc. Its because there community now (But not then) Every one each notices and point information out make it look easy. Gosho plans Amuro appearance well (As Scar Akai) Once, I confuse cant be sure that that guy is Akai or not. But when you read a really thought out theory it clear you up.

Gosho might not expect fans to tears his mysteries to shred. I agree that information on
Spoiler:
Sera brother and her previous meeting with Conan/Shinichi
seem a bit forced. If this arc ended with mystery train, all thing clear. it wont feel so long, Im not sure if he plan from the start that Mystery train arc is not the conclusion of Bourbon arc

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 1:49 pm
by Iwamoto Yuri
User 4869 wrote:
Isn't the forum here based on the manga now? As far as I know DCTP is no longer involved in the anime division.
There a group friendly to DCTP that take over the anime subbing. kkslider5552000 still make his (or her) anime discussion thread base on that. So the rule remain the same. Story discussion for manga and General discussion for anything else.

Turn out that Citan post also contain the same information, and is the heart of the topic LoL.



As I post on this twice. I might as well say something too.
I never notice
Spoiler:
Sera fangs
until Conan point it out. i though "Gosho ass-pull this". Then re-check previous case and saw them LoL.

Another thing is, at the moment Mystery train acr being aired. DCTP was flood with newcomers talking about the case. Guess what? Most of them never read something broadly similar to Chek theory. "Hey, that Bourbon with Vermouth (in truth: Okiya and Yukiko)". "Okiya is Bourbon/Sera is Bourbon. Kir disguise as Vermouth Etc. IIrc Chek rates this arc a little easier that Vermouth arc. Its because there community now (But not then) Every one each notices and point information out make it look easy. Gosho plans Amuro appearance well (As Scar Akai) Once, I confuse cant be sure that that guy is Akai or not. But when you read a really thought out theory it clear you up.

Gosho might not expect fans to tears his mysteries to shred. I agree that information on
Spoiler:
Sera brother and her previous meeting with Conan/Shinichi
seem a bit forced. If this arc ended with mystery train, all thing clear. it wont feel so long, Im not sure if he plan from the start that Mystery train arc is not the conclusion of Bourbon arc
Oh, you mean puto? I don't really follow the moonlighters, my laptop can't handle their subs for some reason :x.
(and assuming that was a bit inconsiderate, sorry...)
Spoiler:
I think the mystery train is the end of the Who Is Bourbon Arc, starting a What Is He Up To Arc :x. Personally I'd be curious to find why he ended up with the BO in the first place and what will happen when he discovers Conan's identity.
I personally enjoy reading the files too much to think anything seems forced, I tend to think people love over-thinking things.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 3:35 pm
by Kor
User 4869 wrote: Turn out that Citan post also contain the same information, and is the heart of the topic LoL.
Edited it.
The fastest way to make us aware of spoilers is reporting on the posts.

EDIT: As far as the topic goes, as long as this series doesn't step into the Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle territory, I think we're fine.

Re: Is Gosho Panicking?

Posted: September 29th, 2013, 3:59 pm
by Chekhov MacGuffin
Kor wrote: The fastest way to make us aware of spoilers is reporting on the posts.

That Story D 2009 thread necroed by a spammer that I reported four times still hasn't been fixed 9 days out...