Ran's role changed? Other's too?

[kirite]

The BO can't be taken down without a good detective...

[....]

Although Ai's character has continued to stay static, she was part of the BO, which is the main plot. Really, the cases aren't the main plot. They were designed so Shinichi could find his main target:the BO.

[....]

Ran isn't involved with cases that much, neither is she apart of the BO that much. Anything she ever gets involved with will be because of Shinichi or Kogoro. Her own importance is based off of the importance of others....I feel if she was going to be a heroine, she should've been involved with the BO in some large way. But Goshyo makes all of his heroines pointless...the only problem any of his heroines have is telling the "childhood friend" they love them.....which is not the main plot at all.

Actually I think a crime organisation should be taken down by something like the FBI/CIA who would track all their movements and arrest their multiple leaders.  It's like having the Japanese police take care of cases using forensic evidence and their own detectives.  It'll take longer for sure, but not all cases requires the assistance of a Meitantei (or else we'll never solve any cases in RL).

I don't agree that the B.O. is Shinichi's only objective to solving cases.  I agree that it's the "big case" however alike Holmes' duels with his arch nemisis it's not the only case nor the reason for the main character's being.  The deduction, the murders, the murder tricks, the character development, etc... from other DC cases are important to the story. Of course Shinichi solved cases because he wanted to make Kogoro famous to come across the B.O.  However Shinichi also solves cases completely unrelated to the B.O. (like the ones with the detective boys) so it's not like finding the B.O. is his only reason for solving cases.

If Ran's involved in the B.O. in some way doesn't that make her too Mary Sue though ?  I think even normal people can be interesting under certain events (like their love ones being in danger).  

One of Ran's appeal to me is that she's a normal girl in a world full of genius detective and genius villians.  Dispite the fact she didn't ask for it the people she cares about tend to attract these things (Sonoko with murderers, Kogoro and Shinichi with dead bodies, Haibara with B.O. etc...).  It's interesting how a semi-normal person (not countring her concret breaking fist lol) will stand up in these type of conditions.  How would she protect the people she cares about?  She's only a normal girl who doesn't have any super hax mind powers nor is she does she have any background knowledge of how to deal with these kinda things.  It's like watching a zombie specialist loaded with gunz killing zombies versus an oblivious unlucky guy armed with broken bat trying to not to get killed by zombies.  It really depends on your personal taste I think ^^.

but the result of trying to make Shinichi "on top" all the time, it results in making everyone else suck at something they should be good at, and it happens everytime any character is faced with Shinichi.

Does that make sense? hope it does...

Don't worry you make sense, I completely agree.  His biggest 1up-ing of everyone comes his ability to know things better then specialist in that field.  Haibara with science.  Ran with history.  The entire FBI/CIA/Japanese police force with it comes to solving crimes and catching villians.  The only one he can't beat is his dad which is a reason why I think Shinichi doesn't want to follow Yuusaku to America (Hakuba Saguru also solves most of his cases in England away from his father).

[soratothamax]

Hide from the world in guilt, I could go along with, but it wasn't fear of monsters or whoever got Kazuha. (Still not sure she's really supposed to be crouching, is that her elbow or knee in the middle bottom panel?)  

I think she was there for a while, too. But, doesn't her being so sensitive and conscientious that it can be a liability in dangerous situations kind of justify Shin'ichi's reason for keeping the secret? (I think it's a vain attempt to keep her from changing/growing up, but if Ran really is that sensitive it's at least more justified than Haibara's stated reason.)

Heh and of course the real reason Ran didn't search effectively or ask for help was that Aoyama needed to give the culprit time to do the elaborate "web" for Kazuha. But, IMO, we'd need to see her in a situation where she really can push aside guilt until it's safe to take time to reflect before declaring this absolutely OOC. (OMG Ran is emo! She should be cold and professional like Motoko Kusanagi or she sucks as a heroine! Nah, as long as she's eventually allowed to grow form her expereinces, rather than continue to collect more and more plot convenient weaknesses.)

It does but it also contradicts many of her past actions, same actions that have Heiji thinking that she's strong enough to handle the truth & Haibara no longer doubting how strong she is. Two Ran's exist in DC.

Yeah the real reason was of course for the case but it could of been done in so many better ways then the one chosen like the usual "Ran appears just after the important conversation claiming something is wrong". As for Ran learning from her experiences, that would be good, but every time you think she's grown it usually results in a plot weakness forced on to her by Gosho.

I agree with you both Nyarl and the TheBlind. Shinichi probably does sense that Ran is too weak to handle the current situation. I mean, Ran hasn't really gone through THAT much. She's always lived a great life, like Shinichi. But Ran in actuality is tougher than Shinichi and knows more heartache (I can't believe I'm sayin this as a CoAi fan )......but she knows more heartache because she's not as rich as Shinichi, her parents are divorced, and she has more responsibilities. Because the situation was hard for Shinichi to accept, Shinichi assumes it will be hard for Ran to accept as well.

But it's cases like the one shown above that contradicts how strong Ran really SHOULD be by now. Really, she has been through more than Shinichi. she should be able to withstand situations better. But, again, they want her to seem like she "needs" Shinichi....

But there are some characters they just can''t get around the fact they are important. Like Haibara Ai..Shinichi can't outshine her in science with the drug or in her knowledge about the BO, though Goshyo has tried to make him outshine her. And she will always be an important character because somebody has to make him the antidote so he can return to being Shinichi so he can take down the BO. Now if it was just for Ran, he would wait until after he's taken down the BO to find the drug antidote. But he wouldn't be very successful without his actual body, so he would need someone to make him the antidote. The BO wouldn't hand it over...not before Shinichi takes them down, so someone has to give it to him to get his real body back. So, Haibara is hanging on that little "string" of importance, that Shinichi could never acquire....Same with Agasa, he makes all of Shinichi's inventions so that he can be a kid detective, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to track down the BO in the first place. It's hanging on that little "string" that makes them important.

I'm sorry, but Shinichi always outshines Ran when they are together. She seems to have no importance in cases at all. She doesn't take down bad guys as much, as she's become the D.I.D. and she really has no control over BO practices except that Vermouth likes her, which can also be said about Kudo's mother, Yukiko. She is just the girl Shinichi is trying to protect from the "nasty" world...And as far as the romance, shinichi and Ran are barely together. How many cases were they really around each other? It's usually Ran and Conan.....It's like Ran is just there.....

[kkslider5552000]

Shinichi is the most important character because he is the main character. This is pretty much a fact for any type of fiction ever.

[soratothamax]

Actually I think a crime organisation should be taken down by something like the FBI/CIA who would track all their movements and arrest their multiple leaders.  It's like having the Japanese police take care of cases using forensic evidence and their own detectives.  It'll take longer for sure, but not all cases requires the assistance of a Meitantei (or else we'll never solve any cases in RL).

I don't agree that the B.O. is Shinichi's only objective to solving cases.  I agree that it's the "big case" however alike Holmes' duels with his arch nemisis it's not the only case nor the reason for the main character's being.  The deduction, the murders, the murder tricks, the character development, etc... from other DC cases are important to the story. Of course Shinichi solved cases because he wanted to make Kogoro famous to come across the B.O.  However Shinichi also solves cases completely unrelated to the B.O. (like the ones with the detective boys) so it's not like finding the B.O. is his only reason for solving cases.

If Ran's involved in the B.O. in some way doesn't that make her too Mary Sue though ?  I think even normal people can be interesting under certain events (like their love ones being in danger).  

One of Ran's appeal to me is that she's a normal girl in a world full of genius detective and genius villians.  Dispite the fact she didn't ask for it the people she cares about tend to attract these things (Sonoko with murderers, Kogoro and Shinichi with dead bodies, Haibara with B.O. etc...).  It's interesting how a semi-normal person (not countring her concret breaking fist lol) will stand up in these type of conditions.  How would she protect the people she cares about?  She's only a normal girl who doesn't have any super hax mind powers nor is she does she have any background knowledge of how to deal with these kinda things.  It's like watching a zombie specialist loaded with gunz killing zombies versus an oblivious unlucky guy armed with broken bat trying to not to get killed by zombies.  It really depends on your personal taste I think ^^.

but the result of trying to make Shinichi "on top" all the time, it results in making everyone else suck at something they should be good at, and it happens everytime any character is faced with Shinichi.

Does that make sense? hope it does...

Don't worry you make sense, I completely agree.  His biggest 1up-ing of everyone comes his ability to know things better then specialist in that field.  Haibara with science.  Ran with history.  The entire FBI/CIA/Japanese police force with it comes to solving crimes and catching villians.  The only one he can't beat is his dad which is a reason why I think Shinichi doesn't want to follow Yuusaku to America (Hakuba Saguru also solves most of his cases in England away from his father).

I'm not really mad that she is a "Mary Sue." I like Ran's personality. just wish she had a bigger role. I think her appeal is that she's normal, but then again, there are others who are too like the Dboys....so it's like...she's one of them....But i don't like overly-caring girls in Japanese anime because it seems to be an unrealistic portrayal of women, like all women have to act like the "love the world, follow your heart and it will lead you home" types.

For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."

Even though Shinichi loves cases, he was mainly staying with the Mouris to go through many cases in hopes of tracking down the BO in one of those random cases...but yea, the DBoys are random....you are right about that.

Don't you just wish someone would upstage Shinichi sometimes? Geez!

[AICHAN]

For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."
 

i have to agree with that point...in every manga i read,it was the case...

[kirite]

For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."

Even though Shinichi loves cases, he was mainly staying with the Mouris to go through many cases in hopes of tracking down the BO in one of those random cases...but yea, the DBoys are random....you are right about that.

Don't you just wish someone would upstage Shinichi sometimes? Geez!

Practical, sensible...for some odd reason that description makes me imediately think of Haruhi (Ouran High Schoo host club xD). But I know what you mean.  As a feminist (yes I am a feminist) I know what you mean by liking female characters out of the unrealistion social norms portrayed in media.  I won't get into that though (since if I start I can go on for ages, I wrote lots of essay about it lol). 

With that said I'm from the old school xD.  For me Ran is a really big improvement already (but then I'm completely jaded like that).  Male mangakas have a tendency to only create girl characters that guys like.  It's not their fault, when you make a start a manga series you naturally want people to like it.  Ran isn't that "normal" though.  She does have the characteristics of girl characters created my time but I think Gosho isn't only catering her personality to please his audience.

I am interested in your portrayal of Haibara though.  If Haibara really ends up getting a death role I'll probably stop reading DC (it'll be like L's death all over again but a million times worse, I won't be able to take it)! 

Haha speaking of no romance, to tell you the truth when Haibara said "I'm 18 and perfect for you <3" to Shinichi, even though the scene was funny, a part of me was really really sad xD.  I was hoping she wouldn't be a girl to fall for the main character so easily (since they're the characters most likely to go through character decay and bashing).  But eh ConanAi is hillarious and Haibara's character remainds intact, I can't complain.

-----

Ahh the day that Shinichi gets upstaged by the people that he always upstages will be a very good chapter indeed.  Seriously just one moment, then I'll be happy Gosho-sensei!

Well actually it's why whenever Haibara teases him it's 100% pure win <3.

Though the only time where she really made him look "silly" was during an AO.

I guess AOs are useful for that sense... (like the AO about Ayumi's rival who loves dressing Conan up as a girl).

[Misztina]

For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."

Maybe these "motherly women" lead characters are some sort of a wish of the author's. In the rushy, grey, sad world, where everything upsets you *switch to man brain* you just want to have a sweet, nice girl, who always smiles, thinks of how she can make you happy, is happy herself not someone you have to extra cheer up etc. etc.
This is kinda egoistical, but afzter the usually 12 hours or more work, men (In Japan) probably need that. This is really unfortunate for those types of girls who aren't naturally optimistic and smiley ( smiley girls exist too, not only gloomy ones) and who can't hide their "bad" feelings and problems.

It was quite interesting to see how Gosho actually pointed out this problem in DC. Shinichi as Conan can see Ran's other side, the girl who "cries in the dark", who represses, hides her feelings in order to please others and without being a bother to them. This takes a lot of energy from motherly women characters and causes a lot of stress.

Characters like Haibara are neglected, and aren't recognised as posssible love interests. But I hope that she gets a chance from Gosho not only as a good friend, but as someone who can have a happy ending too, depite being such a character. I wouldn't mind if she had had been drawn to Shuichi when he was in the BO.

[TheBlind]

For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."

Telling Conan the Professor is dead, pointing a gun at Conan while he's in a hospital bed, pretending Conan has a deadly spider on his back, and always finding the perfect moment to hurt Conan's ego(where it stings him the most).
That's definition of a fun person in my book. .

On a serious note, the latest replies have all been a very interesting to read and cover a lot of good points that expand outside of DC.

[ranger]

[quote author = soratothemax] For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."
   

i have to agree with that point...in every manga i read,it was the case...
[/quote]

yeah, I agree as well...in almost any type of media, im always the guy whos rooting for the bad girl and the main character couple.  The bad/ evil girls are always much more interesting / better personalities / more sexier...etc etc.

I think a good example is in Spider-man.  I think it's reasonable to compare Mary Jane Watson to Ran sort of, and Black Cat to Haibara

[AICHAN]

[quote author = soratothemax] For some reason, i end up liking the girl thats got the deep, mysterious, interesting past, who isn't fun or lively or thinks the world is in a fantasy dream, who doesn't particularly let romance run her life, and has a bit of a "bad girl" tendency......To me, that's the makings of a different woman, and not the stereotypical smothering, motherly woman......they always seem to get the lead roles. And the ones that act more "realistic" or sensible tend to get the "death roles." Either that, or they never have a love interest, like they are less of a woman because they are "practical and sensible types..."
   

i have to agree with that point...in every manga i read,it was the case...

yeah, I agree as well...in almost any type of media, im always the guy whos rooting for the bad girl and the main character couple.  The bad/ evil girls are always much more interesting / better personalities / more sexier...etc etc.

I think a good example is in Spider-man.  I think it's reasonable to compare Mary Jane Watson to Ran sort of, and Black Cat to Haibara
[/quote]

LOL! a spider-man fan ! but it's true that when i see mary jane, she always remind me of Ran....  but i don't know who is Black cat to make a comparaison with haibara...

@the blind:i agree the latest replies were very interesting to read! (the other also but...XD)!

[ranger]

I'm not really a spider-man fan...well not a huge one at least, lol, i dont like comics that much :p but I've got basic knowledge around the superhero stuff.

Another good comparison could be catwoman and batman?  batman is like a vigilante (Conan) who strives for justice, while blackcat is a burglar (haibara) but they have a unique relationship (saving each other, etc)

gah, I always fall for the sexy bad girls in every fiction 

[kirite]

Hey don't be mean, Haibara's not bad D:

She never wanted to make APTX toxin or hurt anyone.

[AICHAN]

Hey don't be mean, Haibara's not bad D:

She never wanted to make APTX toxin or hurt anyone.

hehe... that's true,but she's not an innocent girl,she  has a "bad girl"side which is very cool!(it's a similarity with catwoman ,no?)

[ranger]

Hey don't be mean, Haibara's not bad D:

She never wanted to make APTX toxin or hurt anyone.

hehe... that's true,but she's not an innocent girl,she  had a "bad girl"side which is very cool!(it's a similarity with catwoman ,no?)

yeah that's what I meant, its kind of like a bad boy...you know acting like a badass lol, haibara isn't evil at all, her personality is just like that XD

[ssjup81]

I notice how Ran's character isn't given much opportunity to do much now, and the only reason i could see for that is that Gosho just can't think of anything to do with her character.

IMO, a lot of the characters' roles have probably changed due to the fact that the series have been going on for so long.  For instance, imo, Ai's character is more of a baby-sitter for Mitsuhiko, Ayumi, and Genta now compared to the earlier part of the series.

Ran seems to be just the love-interest now.  I mean, she always was, but even more so now.

I don't have too much of a problem with that, as far as Ran is concerned, but I wish more could be done with Ai since she's pivotal to the BO storyline.