Why do people dislike Ran?

[Kudo Shinchi]

If we're talking about how much Ran contributes to episodic stories (since the DB don't contribute to plot) then she does so plenty of times. She actively sabotaged Sera's plan in the hostage case, she and Kazuha helped apprehend the culprit in the Vampire case, she assisted Sera in investigating a suspect boyfriend in another case, and so on. More so, Ran's subtle ongoing suspicion arc that unfolded over the course of the Bourbon arc lends her every word and action greater significance than what might first appear. Maybe it's just me, but I've certainly felt her presence in recent years.

Also, unless my memory fails me, Keiko is not really a good example. Ran is a better character than her in every conceivable way,and Keiko was never intimately tied to either the plot or other characters besides Yusuke in the way that Ran was in the Vermouth arc. More to the point, I don't think it is a must that Ran must contribute meaningfully to any case she appears in simply because she's there. She does so some of the time, and when she does its usually in a major way.

I believe the quotes from Haibara that I've given above address very concisely many of the problematic aspects of Conan's approach to his predicament. Yes, Haibara is a bit hypocritical for noting them but not discouraging Conan anyways, but the point is that the narrative pointed them out through her, which in turn means Gosho is aware of them, which in turn means that he will likely acknowledge them and focus on them when the time comes.

Finally, I believe its awfully presumptuous of us to declare that something "should" have happened at a certain point, without the foresight that the author doing the actual writing has. The London arc is a case-in-point, actually: at the time, some people declared it a wasted opportunity since Gosho used it for romantic development instead of tying it into the plot (since Haibara's British for example) and that it should have happened during the Kir arc so that Conan's denial of Eisuke would be more poignant. Considering the numerous British hints and allusions that have been running throughout the series ever since the London arc, though, and the way that it itself subtly foreshadows and ties into later events in the Bourbon arc, it's clear that Gosho knew what he was doing. He had the knowledge and planning that we as fans of the series lacked. We don't know how Gosho plans to go about exposing Conan's identity to Ran. Perhaps the vision he has in mind means it must play out a certain way at a certain time, which is why it has yet to occur, even if delaying it causes some damage to the characters.

If the subtle but numerous hints of the past few years are anything to go by, though, it'll be happening sooner rather than later.

Btw, just to be clear, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Conan's approach is problematic, Ran has become a little stale (but can still be fun and interesting), and it's high time that she found out. But as I mentioned earlier, we should be aware of the profound changes this will bring to the manga, and also be aware that Gosho likely has a plan for it that we aren't aware of, all things that could explain why he hasn't done it yet.

[Antiyonder]

Kudo Shinchi:

1. The DBs may not be significant to the plot, but they are still arguably active in their appearances.

2. To hopefully make my case on whether Ran is greatly useful or so-so, there are currently 783 aired episodes of this point. Half of that would basically be 391 episodes.

Now can you say without hesitation that Ran's contribution whether it to the overall plot or moments in the episodic story are 50% or more? If yes, I could definitely concede on the matter. If no, then I would argue that her contributions lack some proportion.

3. You're right. At the end of the day, Gosho might actually have a very good ace that I myself for example have yet to consider.

But for while we have mostly been discussing the reason for the status quo to remain from an in-universe perspective, I think it might help the discussion to provide more imput on the creative side.

Finally, I believe its awfully presumptuous of us to declare that something "should" have happened at a certain point, without the foresight that the author doing the actual writing has. The London arc is a case-in-point, actually: at the time, some people declared it a wasted opportunity since Gosho used it for romantic development instead of tying it into the plot (since Haibara's British for example) and that it should have happened during the Kir arc so that Conan's denial of Eisuke would be more poignant. Considering the numerous British hints and allusions that have been running throughout the series ever since the London arc, though, and the way that it itself subtly foreshadows and ties into later events in the Bourbon arc, it's clear that Gosho knew what he was doing. He had the knowledge and planning that we as fans of the series lacked. We don't know how Gosho plans to go about exposing Conan's identity to Ran. Perhaps the vision he has in mind means it must play out a certain way at a certain time, which is why it has yet to occur, even if delaying it causes some damage to the characters.

For starters, I find my stance justified on the grounds that:
1. Yeah, to a certain point the writers actually know best, but:
- A good writer is capable of not only accepting criticism, by being able to critique their own shortcomings. Case in point. Lets say that the series lasted six months as per the original game plan.

Had that been the case, I would certainly agree that Ran's character would be fine as is. But 20 or more years? I think giving her more of a role is a wise move.

- If a writer make a move more for the sake of the all mighty dollar, than art, then I would argue that their artistic integrity is compromised. I don't begrudge him for wanting to

2. A good bulk of the stories actually could play out the same with Ran being in on the secret. While stories like the Shiragami and London arc certain requires her to be in the dark for plot related reasons, they tend to be the minority in a show that's close to reaching 800.

Heck, I almost think that some storyline based episodes like 375 and 425 could work for the most part with modifications.

3. Not saying that Keiko is a good character. Just that she was part of a show which didn't go on for even half a single decade and thus any staleness or problems are quite minimal.

4. Unlike something like say Haibara providing more secrets of the Organization to Conan, Ran finding out that Conan is Shinichi is something that gives the best of both worlds in that the change is something that will show for a long time, but doesn't compromise the ability to do the series for a few more years or even another decade.


Sure there might be some stories that require Ran to be in the dark or at least appearing to be so, but aside from that, it would be nice to see some other possible imput/speculations as to why Ran being in the loop would be problematic from a creative standpoint. Cause unlike the in-unverse reasons, I can't think of any other possible factor.

[Kudo Shinchi]

1. I agree. I was trying to demonstrate that Ran is often the same.

2. I wouldn't be able to, since to provide a confident answer we would need to conduct an in-depth examination of every single case Ran's appeared in and define what exactly constitutes "activity." That's something that neither of us have done, so we can't really say either way.

I think that you are misunderstanding me to an extent. I don't think there are really any really compelling creative reasons to not let Ran into the know. I agree with you that it would really pump some fresh blood into the show and open the doors to so many potentially great stories and situations. I've simply been providing reasons as to why it hasn't happened yet up to this point. I am a full supporter of it happening, and I believe based on recent hints that it'll be happening sooner than we may think.

[Antiyonder]

Acknowledged.

Additionally lets go back to the in-unverse reasons for a moment. Basically Conan insists on keeping Ran in the dark for the sake of protecting her and because she may be a blabber mouth who will compromise her cover.

But if there's another interpretation that I find to be a sound one from The Mystery of Conan Edogawa fan fic? Even at the time the fic had been written, Conan and company has spent a considerable amount of time and resources into keeping Ran in the dark.

If the time comes that Conan is to come clean rather than trying to throw off her suspicions again, it means admitting that the time and effort put into maintaining his secret was futile, and that at the end of the day he strove to maintain it simply because it's easier to do.

It's a fan fiction interpretation, but the story really does nail the character in their behavior and history.

That being the case, I think it could be applied to the creator himself. For whatever reason, Gosho has gone out of the way to keep this status quo intact for years, even when the reasons given don't hold up at all or as much as they might of back then.

So why does he do it? Because if you think about it, changing this status quo after all of this time is basically an admission that keeping it intact was questionable and that his previous decision to do so was really all for nothing. That and maybe like some people who read/watch something, change scares him.

Overall this comment isn't really me agreeing or disagreeing with you, just a thought that came to mind and wanted to see what you think of it.

2. "I am a full supporter of it happening, and I believe based on recent hints that it'll be happening sooner than we may think."

Maybe you could recap those hints again, just for discussion sakes?

At any rate I remember some of your comments that suggested that Ran is currently suspicious. Namely the fingerprints on the charm from the Shiragami arc.

The problem with that is Kazuha pointing out a flaw in Ran's question, in that Heiji might have visited Shinichi without her being present. And if we are to believe that Ran will finally be brought into the loop through her own detective work, then she will need to:

A. Produce evidence that Conan himself cannot rebuke.
B. Approaching him in a fashion that leaves him with no time to get help from Haibara, Agasa, Heiji or his parents.

And for the reasons I mentioned, the fingerprints on the charm already is shaky as Kazuha provides a solid dispute on the matter.

In contrast, Heiji:
A. Had indisputable evidence in that someone with the deductive abilities of Shinichi Kudo was solving the case, while imitating his voice (minus the accent).

B. Made sure not to arouse Conan's suspicion until he could corner him with accusation in manner that leaves him unable to get help.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

There's another interpretation that I find to be a sound one from The Mystery of Conan Edogawa fan fic. Even at the time the fic had been written, Conan and company has spent a considerable amount of time and resources into keeping Ran in the dark.

If the time comes that Conan is to come clean rather than trying to throw off her suspicions again, it means admitting that the time and effort put into maintaining his secret was futile, and that at the end of the day he strove to maintain it simply because it's easier to do.

It's a fan fiction interpretation, but the story really does nail the character in their behavior and history.

That being the case, I think it could be applied to the creator himself. For whatever reason, Gosho has gone out of the way to keep this status quo intact for years, even when the reasons given don't hold up at all or as much as they might of back then.

So why does he do it? Because if you think about it, changing this status quo after all of this time is basically an admission that keeping it intact was questionable and that his previous decision to do so was really all for nothing. That and maybe like some people who read/watch something, change scares him.

Certainly a valid interpretation, but, as the story admits, it only became pointless after the beginning of the story, most likely after the Desperate Revival arc. Just to say, I agree with you about Ran needing to find out, but Shinichi's/Conan's legitimacy in keeping Ran in the dark had more validity during the Conan and Haibara arcs. It still wasn't right, but I found it less condemnable than it is, now.

The fingerprints on the charm from the Shiragami arc.

Kazuha provides a solid dispute on the matter.

Solid? Why would Shinichi have any reason to touch Heiji's charm?

Here's a good (at least, I consider it to be) record of Ran being suspicious in the Bourbon arc, and references during the Cell Phone and Kir arcs to her last suspicion arc: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 063&type=3. This is what Kudo Shinichi was talking about.

[Antiyonder]

Solid? Why would Shinichi have any reason to touch Heiji's charm?

Good point. At the very least though, I wouldn't consider it to be the best basis to confront Shinichi on. Even if there's no apparent reason, it's not out of the question that Heiji and Shinichi might have worked on a case without the girls in tow, and the latter having a reason to touch it. (And just so it's said, yeah I'm aware of the suggestive tone of my post)

Compared to Heiji making the discovery based on Conan not only displaying the same deductive mannerisms that Kudo has, but also having a voice changing device? Kind of weak sause.

Here's a good (at least, I consider it to be) record of Ran being suspicious in the Bourbon arc, and references during the Cell Phone and Kir arcs to her last suspicion arc: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 063&type=3. This is what Kudo Shinichi was talking about.

Thanks. I'm giving it a read right now, and will hopefully find some good observations there.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

At the very least, though, I wouldn't consider it to be the best basis to confront Shinichi on. Even if there's no apparent reason, it's not out of the question that Heiji and Shinichi might have worked on a case without the girls in tow, and the latter having a reason to touch it. (And just so it's said, I'm aware of the suggestive tone of my post)

Compared to Heiji making the discovery based on Conan not only displaying the same deductive mannerisms that Kudo has, but also having a voice changing device? Kind of weak sauce.

Indeed—but, in the Shiragami case, Shinichi/Conan accidentally takes the temporary antidote in the cabin and eventually dons the Shiragami's clothes to catch his imposter. Before his transformation finishes, though, he must've climbed out of the cabin's window... and only as a child could he have climbed out, since he was locked in, and only a child could've fit through the window.

Plus, about the charm, Shinichi/Conan clearly touches it—even if it's contended that Shinichi touched it, also, wouldn't there, then, be two sets of fingerprints? The absence of Shinichi's fingerprints and the presence of Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints has suspicion potential. If Ran decides to find a way to have it analyzed...

[Antiyonder]

At the very least, though, I wouldn't consider it to be the best basis to confront Shinichi on. Even if there's no apparent reason, it's not out of the question that Heiji and Shinichi might have worked on a case without the girls in tow, and the latter having a reason to touch it. (And just so it's said, I'm aware of the suggestive tone of my post)

Compared to Heiji making the discovery based on Conan not only displaying the same deductive mannerisms that Kudo has, but also having a voice changing device? Kind of weak sauce.

Indeed—but, in the Shiragami case, Shinichi/Conan accidentally takes the temporary antidote in the cabin and eventually dons the Shiragami's clothes to catch his imposter. Before his transformation finishes, though, he must've climbed out of the cabin's window... and only as a child could he have climbed out, since he was locked in, and only a child could've fit through the window.

Plus, about the charm, Shinichi/Conan clearly touches it—even if it's contended that Shinichi touched it, also, wouldn't there, then, be two sets of fingerprints? The absence of Shinichi's fingerprints and the presence of Shinichi's/Conan's fingerprints has suspicion potential. If Ran decides to find a way to have it analyzed...

Both are actually pretty good points. First one I didn't even think of until reading that page, and the other well, I would hope that the charm is merely going to be the first of many strong hints, but I really can't argue much about the validity with that detail in mind.

And I have to say while I'm going to keep my expectations mild, I'm almost more hopeful than before that Ran will finally get to act on her suspicions and not be turned away again.

If that turns out to be the case, the only matter of concern will be the overall reaction. Another reason I tend to plug TMoCE as a read is because while funvince grants Conan some understanding and sympathy for his situation, he doesn't whitewash the fact that the depths of his deception is a jerk move and that the ends don't always justify the mean,

I mean I don't need Ran to be a sobbing, screechy mess, but I would hate for her reaction to be of someone reacting to a minor inconvenience.

[Kudo Shinchi]

@Gosho being afraid of change...It’s an interesting thought, but for now is just more speculation on the author’s intentions/state of mind. Maybe Gosho is afraid of change…or maybe he has a plan and goal and the time isn’t right yet, or maybe he knows he can’t put forward such a change yet in the current climate for reasons we are not aware of, and so on and so forth. However, I don’t believe changing the status quo would be evidence of the uselessness of how it was before, more like a confirmation that things couldn’t remain the same any longer. Who knows, perhaps Gosho plans to intentionally show the futility of Conan’s actions when it comes time for the reveal. Without further evidence, though, all of the above is really just speculation, even if it’s interesting to consider. However, I won’t deny that it is still important to entertain such thoughts since they can explain why certain things are how they are (and is what I’ve been doing to an extent so far).

Here's a good (at least, I consider it to be) record of Ran being suspicious in the Bourbon arc, and references during the Cell Phone and Kir arcs to her last suspicion arc: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 063&type=3.

Absolutely brilliant content in that link, many thanks for posting it; there were some things in there that I hadn't noticed or did but completely forgot about. This basically shows that the build-up to the next suspicion arc has been on-going for roughly a decade now...which is pretty unbelievable, and simply strengthens my feeling that this one will be the last. Since that page only covers until Sera's appearance, though, I'd like to point out the other hints that have been dropped since then, for the sake of thoroughness:

-Episode 649, Ran wonders to herself why Shinichi is speaking on Conan's phone
-DNA testing is on Ran’s mind. See Amuro’s introductory case, where she suggests to Conan quite directly that it can be used to expose a person’s identity even if they try to conceal it. The moment is played for laughs, but it does startle Conan and show that Ran has thought about such a thing.
-Episode 690, Sera gives Ran guidelines and advice as to how to corner someone with unshakable evidence; Ran actually takes down notes on her phone.
-Ran directly and blatantly expresses doubts about Conan’s identity in episode 691, when she notes his similarity to Shinichi as a child and even grabs him in order to ask him for confirmation for his identity, with “Conan-kun, right?” She follows this up by noting, out loud, that he and Shinichi look very alike. This tells us that this particular fact is also on Ran’s mind. Also, in this same case Ran sees Conan's soccer ball and realizes he's the one who used it for the first time, and notices his bowtie thanks to Sera pointing it out. She also questioned Conan's claim that Shinichi talked to him over the phone since she has just been speaking with him moments ago. Agaid, I have to emphasize the importance of episodes 690-691; they provide crucial clues as well as important pieces of information to Ran that could become very important down the line.
-Things get even more suggestive in the aftermath of the Mystery Train case, when Ran seems to have decided subconsciously that Conan really is Shinichi, and her attitude towards him changes as such. Consider the Romance Novelist case, when she asks Conan if there is anyone he likes. Two things stand out: first, that she is way too interested in a first grader’s possible love interests, and second, that she is blushing a lot for some reason. Why?
-See the first episode of the Scarlet Showdown, 781. Ran is eagerly looking around for Conan because she thinks he would want to watch Yuusaku’s award ceremony. Kogoro points out, quite correctly, that there isn’t any reason that Conan should care about Yuusaku’s award, since they have no connection to each other in any way. The message here is clear: Ran is subconsciously associating Conan with Shinichi.
-Generally speaking, Ran seems to take Conan's deductions more seriously and doesn't give him much trouble when he asks for something to assist him in his investigation.

I'm sure there are other things I've missed. The above, in conjunction with the material covered in the link, posted earlier, should provide overwhelming evidence as to Ran's developing suspicions. The Scarlet Showdown one shows that this is still very much a relevant plot thread, even now. The hints and clues have become more blatant over the past few years, usually a sign that things are coming closer to a conclusion.

[Serinox]

-Things get even more suggestive in the aftermath of the Mystery Train case, when Ran seems to have decided subconsciously that Conan really is Shinichi, and her attitude towards him changes as such. Consider the Romance Novelist case, when she asks Conan if there is anyone he likes. Two things stand out: first, that she is way too interested in a first grader’s possible love interests, and second, that she is blushing a lot for some reason. Why?

First of all, I agree with all of your points, good list. Love it. But, to add to this point, you shouldn't forget that Sonoko is also speculating about Conan's love interest and from her thoughts seems quite disappointing that they didn't get a real answer from him. And Ran blushing is simply due to the fact, that she almost always blushes when there is romance stuff involved (she also blushes during HeijixKazuha stuff etc.) and the fact, that she suggest that she might fall for him if there is no one.

Then again, that suggestion is almost suspicious again...

[Startold]

The spoiler cbox user Ran5-5 (who owns the Facebook page "The Red Thread" whose album is being discussed on this topic) asked me to post this:

"Thanks for reading and discussing the album. It will be widened and update soon with some significant add-ons, comparative material and new manga facts, until progressively covering the last volumes."

[DCUniverseAficionado]

The spoiler cbox user Ran5-5 (who owns the Facebook page "The Red Thread" whose album is being discussed on this topic) asked me to post this:

"Thanks for reading and discussing the album. It will be widened and update soon with some significant add-ons, comparative material and new manga facts, until progressively covering the last volumes."

Glad to hear it—with 14 volumes published since the last album post, I'm sure there's a bit to add.

And I have to say while I'm going to keep my expectations mild, I'm almost more hopeful than before that Ran will finally get to act on her suspicions and not be turned away again.

If that turns out to be the case, the only matter of concern will be the overall reaction. Another reason I tend to plug TMoCE as a read is because while funvince grants Conan some understanding and sympathy for his situation, he doesn't whitewash the fact that the depths of his deception is a jerk move and that the ends don't always justify the means.

I mean I don't need Ran to be a sobbing, screechy mess, but I would hate for her reaction to be of someone reacting to a minor inconvenience.

Her reaction to the truth is going to be pretty important—hopefully, Shinichi/Conan will be affected by this, and Ran won't be consumed by rage or despair. In TMoCE, she brushes aside his offering to leave her as penance. She's firm, but not spiteful and bitter.

[Uchiha Shadow]

After reading all those points about Ran discovering Conan is Shinichi, I guess that's what Gosho meant when he said that Ran will discover it slowly.

[Silverbullet96]

After reading all those points about Ran discovering Conan is Shinichi, I guess that's what Gosho meant when he said that Ran will discover it slowly.

Jesus, Gosho should really stop giving spoilers. He even said Yuusaku and Agasa are not the BO boss. It's a mystery anime, it would be better if he gave the fans more to think about.
Also I love how 'it would be more beneficial that Ran would know the truth' is seen as a fact here right now, that we're discussing about what's wrong with Gosho cause he's not pulling the trigger.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I wonder why people bring up the "her parents are seperated" card when discussing how hard her life is. Her parents are just being a bunch of Tsunderes, its nothing serious.
You keep giving past examples of her not being scared of people, but I don't see how that tells us she won't be scared of an even more dangerous group of people.
She has screamed like your average woman countless times when she has seen a dead body.
Well, whatever. This discussion isn't really going anywhere so I'm out.

"Average woman".
You can be glad that you said you're out of the discussion now.