Detective Conan 701-704 (The Jet-Black Mystery Train) Discussion Thread

[Shinichi Edogawa]

And of course commercial is not stranger to quality, but I am not blind, after 20 years DC is not finish, it's not only because Gosho likes this series...
And DC is, for the plot, based on the wait (or expectation), it's one of the bases (for the plot, not for the cases).

But I like DC a lot for the cases of course, it's more important than the BO, it's like columbo, it's the interest of this manga.

[Kor]

There's definitely a major commercial element in Conan, regardless if that was the intention when it was created.

With that said...

I actually think that I know why Amuro hates akai. Maybe he liked Akemi since he's childhood (maybe they were friends like shin'ichi and ran , or something like that) and he thinks " akemi died because of Akai Shuicihi " .-.

Back when it was first stated that Bourbon also hates Akai (Gin hated him before it was cool), I also said the same thing, only sarcastically, because that is probably the worst motivation Bourbon can have. I hope Gosho can go beyond his urge to childhood-freinding any other characters.

I'm fine with it being long, and honestly, I like the idea of Bourbon being an *awesome* detective (since the battle between Conan and BO is one of wits).
It'll be just awesome to see what they'll come up with triyng to defeat each other. I can't wait for it!

I would have been fine with that, had we actually seen Bourbon being an awesome detective, cause here's the thing - the series already had a bunch of "awesome detectives" - Conan, Heiji and Akai (and Yusaku on rare occasions). Adding in this overall arc not one, but two additional detectives kinda feels redundant.
Yeah, Bourbon's thing is that he's a detective from the B.O., and we're told that he's like this really great detective, but I felt he was really underwhelming so far. He really wasn't such an effective villain so far.

I thought he made it clear in a couple of his interviews that he has more Bo characters he wants to introduce, and then he'll start writing towards an ending afterwards.

I'd take anything he says in the interviews regarding the ending with a grain of salt. There are more factors than just what he "wants to do".

Before the Bourbon arc we only had 5 known Black org members that are alive. Clearly he's gonna continue to expand his organization.

But he doesn't necessarily need to focus a total arc on each person he'd want to introduce. Pisco was there for a very limited time, but he was very effective in his role.

We have yet to see any scientist who are continuing the drug creation

We don't have to. It'd be enough if we're told the project's still going on. Also, I don't see how we can have a full arc focusing on a scientist, considering he's a scientist and not a field agent.

and we haven't seen any guys who fund the organization since Pisco.

But we know there are people who fund the organization, so we don't actually need to see that stuff.

@Shinichi Edogawa - you have an "edit" button, so please use that instead of double-posting.

[DetectiveKir]

I would have been fine with that, had we actually seen Bourbon being an awesome detective, cause here's the thing - the series already had a bunch of "awesome detectives" - Conan, Heiji and Akai (and Yusaku on rare occasions). Adding in this overall arc not one, but two additional detectives kinda feels redundant.
Yeah, Bourbon's thing is that he's a detective from the B.O., and we're told that he's like this really great detective, but I felt he was really underwhelming so far. He really wasn't such an effective villain so far

.

I think we've already seen many examples of Bourbon being an excellent detective, and I've only watched the anime so far. In the Beika mall heist, he solved the red shirts case easily, without half the information Conan was given. During Amoro's introductory case, he clearly understood what was really going on early on, but decided to test Mouri's wits, by intentionally showing him evidence, and not interrupting when the victim was about to destroy evidence. In detective's Nocturne, he easily figures out that someone has infiltrated the detective agency, and is clearly hiding in the bathroom, then later on he's able to notice the shoes missing, the bugs affecting the phone call, and the hidden password.

The only reason I see anyone considering him underwealming is because his detective skills aren't just spoon fed to you like Heiji's or Shinchi's. That's because he spends most of his time, testing the people around him, and doesn't seem to feel any moral obligation to intervene in cases. As we've seen, he'll only give a true deduction when he's in a situation where it's threatening his plan, like during the Beiki mall situation. So his detective skills really haven't been underwhelming, as long as you pay attention to the evidence he picks up in cases, and what he intentionally ignores, to see if Mouri/Conan will be able to figure it out. He's not going to confidently blurt out his deduction, because he doesn't really care what happens to most of these people. Bourbon is a schemer, he's not a moral detective, so unless you're paying attention it's easy to miss all the things he does during cases.

That's a reason why Goshu's has chosen to let guys like Gin and Date tell the reader about his abilities, because if you're looking for them to be displayed the same way as the "Morally Good detectives" in the series, you're gonna miss a lot of his observations, and actions that slowly reveal how brilliant he is.

Gin: "Like you said, one who you wish only existed in novels. A detective like Sherlock Holmes"

Date "That Info's fake, I was always second. I never beat him in brains or brawn. He was a kind, tall and thin man, a bit like you.

& In reference to Amouro always being 1st in the police academy

But he doesn't necessarily need to focus a total arc on each person he'd want to introduce. Pisco was there for a very limited time, but he was very effective in his role.

I never said, all Bo members need their own arc. But introducing them takes some sort of special/arc, where they're heavily involved in the plot.

We don't have to. It'd be enough if we're told the project's still going on. Also, I don't see how we can have a full arc focusing on a scientist, considering he's a scientist and not a field agent.

No I don't agree with you, I think not showing us any scientist who are continuing Sherry's project would be bad writing. Goshu's better than that so I'm confident he'll continue to expand his organization. It's important to me as a reader too see the people who continue to work on this miracle drug, even after the Miyano family has all disappeared. When writing an organization this unique, all these implied roles in it must be explored, rather than left untouched, or it'll leave readers feeling unsatisfied.

That'd be nearly as bad to me as just saying the computer programming goal, is still going on, but not showing us anyone who's working on it. It would be bad writing, and Goshu's proven he's much better than that.

Again whole arcs, aren't necessary. But when the scientest are introduced, Sherry's reason for lying to Conan about the floppy disk with the Drug's data, will most likely be explored, along with the history of the Miyano family

But we know there are people who fund the organization, so we don't actually need to see that stuff.

I think we have to. The people who fund the organization are important to the plot development of the organization. Just saying that there's people within the organization that fund it, isn't sufficient because it's extremely vague, and doesn't tell us anything about the occupations these guys are in. Just like with Pisco we have to see these guys occupations, and how big a role they play within the organization.


This is why I think Goshu's gonna continue to do justice to the Black org, because I think he's not gonna leave any stone untouched, when it comes to exploring the different aspects. He's most likely gonna show us Bo members that occupy a vast number or roles, and make sure the reader understands all the inner workings of the org, from the beginning to how it stands now. That's good writing, I expect nothing less. He understands that 6 coded members, with some of them sharing the same role (Korn and Chanti), isn't nearly sufficient enough for the large syndicate that was referenced earlier in the series. The more effectively the members are built up in the org, the more satisfying Conan's victory over them will be.

Not every org member has to be as spectacular as Bourbon, Gin or Vermouth. We could have guys who are simply loyal, but still pose a threat, like Vodka or Tequila. That's the beauty of the org, it's unique, and people occupy very different roles.

Like I said before I'm predicting about 10-12 total coded members before the Boss is introduced.

[Adel34]

I don't like how they made Bourbon hang around Conan and become friendly towards the main characters, it ruins my whole image of the BO as bad guys getting rid of everyone who gets in their way. It doesn't feel like Bourbon even belongs to the BO. And I hate the fact that Conan barely does anything about the situation, but I already talked about it in the other thread about him.

This whole episode lacks the "scary" part of it, NOTHING was scary or suspicious in this arc, nothing. From all the BO-related cases, this has to be my least favorite. Also, there's one other thing... where the heck did Kid get Sherry's mask and clothes?

[DetectiveKir]

I don't like how they made Bourbon hang around Conan and become friendly towards the main characters, it ruins my whole image of the BO as bad guys getting rid of everyone who gets in their way. It doesn't feel like Bourbon even belongs to the BO. And I hate the fact that Conan barely does anything about the situation, but I already talked about it in the other thread about him.

This whole episode lacks the "scary" part of it, NOTHING was scary or suspicious in this arc, nothing. From all the BO-related cases, this has to be my least favorite. Also, there's one other thing... where the heck did Kid get Sherry's mask and clothes?

He's working undercover to gather information from the people around the main characters, specifically Akai who he still questions his death. Did you expect him to just randomly shoot them to eliminate them? What purpose would that serve to achieving his goal? When Vermouth disguised herself as Aride to go undercover, should she have suddenly treated all the main characters like crap? You don't gain trust going undercover, if you're not friendly with the people around you. Bourbon's the top detective of the Bo, so going undercover, and gaining trust, should be something you expected. Unless of course you expected him to go undercover and purposefully make enemies, to make it harder for him to achive his mission, because you want every Bo member to act like Gin?

Seriously, criticizing a detective, for doing effective detective work... sounds like quite a nit pick. Bourbon's specialty is information gathering, so he's doing what he does best. Members occupy completley different roles in the organization,guys like Bourbon and Vermouth are great at getting information, whiles a guy like Gin has been shown to make excellent plans and have an extremely keen eye. That's what makes the organization powerful, and that's what gives them the ability to eliminate their enemies. They have guys who specialize in information gathering, deals, assassinations, oversight and many other roles, all working under a Boss who's described as being "Cautious as hell". It's because they have guys effectively filling all these roles, that the organization has lasted for Half a century.

I don't read the manga, but like I stated earlier, nearly any action Conan takes towards Bourbon, would reveal how deeply Conan is involved against the Organization. And Bourbon is said to be one of the most perceptive members of the Bo, so it's not like he's going to fall into some ridiculous trap.



I think it's obvious that Yukiko was the reason why Kaito Kid was able to disguise as Sherry. The disguising kit Vermouth found was most likley a decoy, so she wouldn't suspect that they already disguised Kaito Kid as Sherry

[Adel34]

He's working undercover to gather information from the people around the main characters, specifically Akai who he still questions his death. Did you expect him to just randomly shoot them to eliminate them? What purpose would that serve to achieving his goal? When Vermouth disguised herself as Aride to go undercover, should she have suddenly treated all the main characters like crap? You don't gain trust going undercover, if you're not friendly with the people around you. Bourbon's the top detective of the Bo, so going undercover, should be something you expected. Unless of course you expected him to go undercover and be hostile towards the main characters, to make it harder for him to achive his mission, because you want every Bo member to act like Gin? Seriously, criticizing a detective, for doing effective detective work... sounds like quite a nit pick. Bourbon's specialty is information gathering, so he's doing what he does best. Members occupy completley different roles in the organization.

The situation with Vermouth was different. First of all, she was disguised as someone else whereas Bourbon isn't. Second of all, the viewers didn't know that Araide was Vermouth in disguise whereas everyone knows that Amuro is Bourbon. This whole fact that we all know who he is and so does Conan makes me don't like it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the dark side of Bourbon. Maybe they shouldn't have revealed his identity so early, because what will happen after this arc really doesn't make sense. And the point I'm trying to prove is that Bourbon still lacks that "scary and mysterious" part that other BO members have.

[DetectiveKir]

He's working undercover to gather information from the people around the main characters, specifically Akai who he still questions his death. Did you expect him to just randomly shoot them to eliminate them? What purpose would that serve to achieving his goal? When Vermouth disguised herself as Aride to go undercover, should she have suddenly treated all the main characters like crap? You don't gain trust going undercover, if you're not friendly with the people around you. Bourbon's the top detective of the Bo, so going undercover, should be something you expected. Unless of course you expected him to go undercover and be hostile towards the main characters, to make it harder for him to achive his mission, because you want every Bo member to act like Gin? Seriously, criticizing a detective, for doing effective detective work... sounds like quite a nit pick. Bourbon's specialty is information gathering, so he's doing what he does best. Members occupy completley different roles in the organization.

The situation with Vermouth was different. First of all, she was disguised as someone else whereas Bourbon isn't. Second of all, the viewers didn't know that Araide was Vermouth in disguise whereas everyone knows that Amuro is Bourbon. This whole fact that we all know who he is and so does Conan makes me don't like it. I'm really looking forward to seeing the dark side of Bourbon. Maybe they shouldn't have revealed his identity so early, because what will happen after this arc really doesn't make sense. And the point I'm trying to prove is that Bourbon still lacks that "scary and mysterious" part that other BO members have.

The biggest reason why Vermouth was disguised as opposed to Bourbon, is because Vermouth's face is easily recognized, because she's a famous actress. Bourbon has no need to change his face, because his face isn't know by anyone outside of Akai, who's supposed to be dead. Please, I was reading the huge Bourbon speculation threads, from last year and people were still claiming that Okiya was Bourbon, and up until this point people on youtube people still were claiming Scar Akai was Akai himself or a different person. Just because we post on a forum, that doesn't mean we represent the majority of Dc viewers. What will happen after this will make more than enough sense, because it seems obvious to me at this point, that it's builing up to some epic confrontation between Bourbon and Akai, that sheds light on their past. I think that became clear after Bourbon's final statements in mystery train, and the Akai eye scene.

Neither Kir, Tequila, Caldavados, Chanti or Korn ever gave me a dark mysterious feel. Doesn't make them any worse in my eyes. Bo members have extremly different personalities, not everyones gonna give off that mysterious " I want to kill everyone around you" feel.What make the Bo dark and mysterious, has always been their actions, and their willingness to kill people they deem a threat. Bourbon's real danger comes from his information gathering skills and detective skills. Even so, Gin's statement in the red shirt's case, that Bourbon belives he's the only one who can kill Akai,implies that he's also willing to kill his true enemies.

[Kor]

I would have been fine with that, had we actually seen Bourbon being an awesome detective, cause here's the thing - the series already had a bunch of "awesome detectives" - Conan, Heiji and Akai (and Yusaku on rare occasions). Adding in this overall arc not one, but two additional detectives kinda feels redundant.
Yeah, Bourbon's thing is that he's a detective from the B.O., and we're told that he's like this really great detective, but I felt he was really underwhelming so far. He really wasn't such an effective villain so far

.

I think we've already seen many examples of Bourbon being an excellent detective, and I've only watched the anime so far. In the Beika mall heist, he solved the red shirts case easily, without half the information Conan was given. During Amoro's introductory case, he clearly understood what was really going on early on, but decided to test Mouri's wits, by intentionally showing him evidence, and not interrupting when the victim was about to destroy evidence. In detective's Nocturne, he easily figures out that someone has infiltrated the detective agency, and is clearly hiding in the bathroom, then later on he's able to notice the shoes missing, the bugs affecting the phone call, and the hidden password.

The only reason I see anyone considering him underwealming is because his detective skills aren't just spoon fed to you like Heiji's or Shinchi's. That's because he spends most of his time, testing the people around him, and doesn't seem to feel any moral obligation to intervene in cases. As we've seen, he'll only give a true deduction when he's in a situation where it's threatening his plan, like during the Beiki mall situation. So his detective skills really haven't been underwhelming, as long as you pay attention to the evidence he picks up in cases, and what he intentionally ignores, to see if Mouri/Conan will be able to figure it out. He's not going to confidently blurt out his deduction, because he doesn't really care what happens to most of these people. Bourbon is a schemer, he's not a moral detective, so unless you're paying attention it's easy to miss all the things he does during cases.

I actually consider him underwhelming because the length of this arc really hindered him as a villain. Plus the fact that he had some traits that already belonged to previous characters - such as hating Akai.

That's a reason why Goshu's has chosen to let guys like Gin and Date tell the reader about his abilities, because if you're looking for them to be displayed the same way as the "Morally Good detectives" in the series, you're gonna miss a lot of his observations, and actions that slowly reveal how brilliant he is.

Gin: "Like you said, one who you wish only existed in novels. A detective like Sherlock Holmes"

Date "That Info's fake, I was always second. I never beat him in brains or brawn. He was a kind, tall and thin man, a bit like you.

& In reference to Amouro always being 1st in the police academy

The problem here is that I don't feel Bourbon lived up to the expectations of such statements yet. Moreover, however good Bourbon might be, based on the past confrontations, Conan is more than likely to get the better of him.
So as a character that haven't left a huge impact on me personally, I can't say I expect that much. It'd be great to be wrong.

I never said, all Bo members need their own arc. But introducing them takes some sort of special/arc, where they're heavily involved in the plot.

And I think that if you have too many of those arcs, eventually they won't feel special anymore, but just repetitive. Gosho could just as well introduce a B.O. member in a very generic case, and we'd only know 50 chapters later that this character was actually a B.O. member.

No I don't agree with you, I think not showing us any scientist who are continuing Sherry's project would be bad writing. Goshu's better than that so I'm confident he'll continue to expand his organization. It's important to me as a reader too see the people who continue to work on this miracle drug, even after the Miyano family has all disappeared. When writing an organization this unique, all these implied roles in it must be explored, rather than left untouched, or it'll leave readers feeling unsatisfied.

Why do you need to know who's working on it? Unless any of the people who work on it have some bearing on the plot, they don't need to be introduced. It's much more important to focus on the actual drug and Haibara's history. By adding in more people who work on the drug, it'll take away more of Haibara's relevance (and we sure could have her be relevant again).
Dare I say, the B.O. is really not all that unique. It's secretive, but it's also quite generic. What makes it interesting as opposed to other fictional organizations, is that almost 20 years in, and we still know very little about it. While I'm pretty sure we'll get more details on the BO eventually, I don't expect Gosho to go into full details about all of the behind the scenes regarding the B.O.

That'd be nearly as bad to me as just saying the computer programming goal, is still going on, but not showing us anyone who's working on it. It would be bad writing, and Goshu's proven he's much better than that.

But I didn't say that, so I'm not sure why you talk about it. Also, if you're ever going to say what's "bad writing", please provide an explanation. That statement by itself is sort of a blanket statement.

Again whole arcs, aren't necessary. But when the scientest are introduced, Sherry's reason for lying to Conan about the floppy disk with the Drug's data, will most likely be explored, along with the history of the Miyano family

You don't necessarily need new characters to be introduced for the sake of exploring Haibara's past. We already have two capable characters who can tell us about it and the drug - Haibara and Vermouth. If we're tackling good vs. bad writing, there's this thing that you shouldn't introduce new characters, if you already have existing characters who can fill the role or purpose of the new characters you want to introduce.

I think we have to. The people who fund the organization are important to the plot development of the organization. Just saying that there's people within the organization that fund it, isn't sufficient because it's extremely vague, and doesn't tell us anything about the occupations these guys are in. Just like with Pisco we have to see these guys occupations, and how big a role they play within the organization.

And my argument is - no, we don't. We don't need to know what are the occupations of people who fund the organization or who exactly are the people who fund it. We already know that they have lawyers, politicians, key figures, etc.
Also, I'm unsure what sort of plot development exactly the organization is going through, as well as how knowing the funders' identities is important to this plot development.
We don't need to know every little thing about who cooperates with the organization, we just need to know the overall picture about those people. What I think we do need to know is the motivation and the intentions of the organization, as well as the motivation of the one leading it. My point is, the organization itself is much more important than the people who are part of it. While letting us know specific details about those people can be nice, I find it unnecessary in the grand scheme of things.

This is why I think Goshu's gonna continue to do justice to the Black org, because I think he's not gonna leave any stone untouched, when it comes to exploring the different aspects. He's most likely gonna show us Bo members that occupy a vast number or roles, and make sure the reader understands all the inner workings of the org, from the beginning to how it stands now. That's good writing, I expect nothing less.

What you're describing sounds like excessive writing, not good writing. Gosho can go through all the hierarchies, members, roles, behind-the-scenes-stuff, etc. But going into so many details could derail not only the plot, but the organization itself. The "fantasy" about the organization could be broken if we learn too much about it.
This kind of reminds me of a Hebrew proverb which basically means: While overlooking every detail you might miss out the big picture.

He understands that 6 coded members, with some of them sharing the same role (Korn and Chanti), isn't nearly sufficient enough for the large syndicate that was referenced earlier in the series. The more effectively the members are built up in the org, the more satisfying Conan's victory over them will be.

Not every org member has to be as spectacular as Bourbon, Gin or Vermouth. We could have guys who are simply loyal, but still pose a threat, like Vodka or Tequila. That's the beauty of the org, it's unique, and people occupy very different roles.

Like I said before I'm predicting about 10-12 total coded members before the Boss is introduced.

I'd refrain from saying what Gosho understands, since you're kinda implying that you know what he thinks, and that sounds a bit pretentious.
I'm willing to argue that the Org has been established already as pretty powerful, so I don't feel I need 6 more members to be introduced in order to feel satisfied about Conan defeating the BO. I'm not opposed to the idea of adding more members, as long they have a purpose and relevance of their own.

Also, there's one other thing... where the heck did Kid get Sherry's mask and clothes?

This confrontation overall was VERY convenient for the sake of Conan, and the plan of using Kaito Kid in the first place is rather contrived.

[DetectiveKir]

I actually consider him underwhelming because the length of this arc really hindered him as a villain. Plus the fact that he had some traits that already belonged to previous characters - such as hating Akai.

I can't ever consider a character, underwhelming because of the length of an arc. I can consider the arc itself underwhelming, and the pacing bad, but if the character continues to prove his worth in his appearances throughout the arc, then its no reflection on him. It's to be expected that he'd share a common enemy with other Bo members, that's because there's very few enemies the Bo hasn't eliminated. The two main ones are Sherry and Akai, so all the major Bo members from Gin to Vermouth to Bourbon, are going to share a hatred for one if not both of these two characters. Sherry's the traitor and Akai's the silver bullet.

The problem here is that I don't feel Bourbon lived up to the expectations of such statements yet. Moreover, however good Bourbon might be, based on the past confrontations, Conan is more than likely to get the better of him.
So as a character that haven't left a huge impact on me personally, I can't say I expect that much. It'd be great to be wrong.

I think the examples I gave in the earlier post, show that when Bourbon has appeared he's lived up to those expectations if you examine his observations and actions during cases. Unlike the other detectives in the series, you have to examine his actions further, to see exactly why he's a great detective. It's the little things done during a case that help build up his character.

And I think that if you have too many of those arcs, eventually they won't feel special anymore, but just repetitive. Gosho could just as well introduce a B.O. member in a very generic case, and we'd only know 50 chapters later that this character was actually a B.O. member.

The arcs will always feel special Imo, as long at there distinct, and pose a different problem or threat to the main character, and add a different piece of knowledge about the organization. I have no reason to doubt Goshu can achieve this. On that note, an 3 episode arc focused on a Bo scientist, would be very different from one focused on a fundraiser, just by their very nature.

Why do you need to know who's working on it? Unless any of the people who work on it have some bearing on the plot, they don't need to be introduced. It's much more important to focus on the actual drug and Haibara's history. By adding in more people who work on the drug, it'll take away more of Haibara's relevance (and we sure could have her be relevant again).

Knowing who's working on it, and what they're trying to achive now, helps to demonstrate why the Bo has been able to last for over half a century. If the Miyano's left, and no one has taken over the project, it reflects negatively on the organizations abilty to replace their members with equally capable recruits, and continue to work towards their goals in drug creation.

But I didn't say that, so I'm not sure why you talk about it. Also, if you're ever going to say what's "bad writing", please provide an explanation. That statement by itself is sort of a blanket statement.

Any villain organization, that isn't fully fleshed out, is bad writing IMHO. Especially one like this, that is a sum of so many members fuffiling different diverse roles, that all come together to push the organization towards its goals.

You don't necessarily need new characters to be introduced for the sake of exploring Haibara's past. We already have two capable characters who can tell us about it and the drug - Haibara and Vermouth. If we're tackling good vs. bad writing, there's this thing that you shouldn't introduce new characters, if you already have existing characters who can fill the role or purpose of the new characters you want to introduce.

Legitimate point.

And my argument is - no, we don't. We don't need to know what are the occupations of people who fund the organization or who exactly are the people who fund it. We already know that they have lawyers, politicians, key figures, etc.
Also, I'm unsure what sort of plot development exactly the organization is going through, as well as how knowing the funders' identities is important to this plot development.

Knowing who these funders are, and having a clear understanding of the influential people behind the organizations operation, is extremely important for developing an organization which is powerful enough to be hunted in Japan, by both the Cia and the FBI. The people behind the scenes, who gives this organization the legs to be such a huge threat in both America and Japan, are definitly important story wise. Especilly if Conan is planning on completley taking down the organization

What you're describing sounds like excessive writing, not good writing. Gosho can go through all the hierarchies, members, roles, behind-the-scenes-stuff, etc. But going into so many details could derail not only the plot, but the organization itself. The "fantasy" about the organization could be broken if we learn too much about it.
This kind of reminds me of a Hebrew proverb which basically means: While overlooking every detail you might miss out the big picture.

I think what I'm describing is a fully fleshed out organization, where the reader understands the majority of the aspects that make the organization what it has been for 50 years. Nothing angers me more than when I feel villians, are just there as a roadblock for the main character, and aren't fleshed out in the plot.

I'd refrain from saying what Gosho understands, since you're kinda implying that you know what he thinks, and that sounds a bit pretentious.
I'm willing to argue that the Org has been established already as pretty powerful, so I don't feel I need 6 more members to be introduced in order to feel satisfied about Conan defeating the BO. I'm not opposed to the idea of adding more members, as long they have a purpose and relevance of their own.

Ah, that wasn't my intention. I was simply trying to state the direction I see Goshu going in based on what he's given us about the organization so far.

And I don't think the organization has been fleshed out nearly enough to this point. We've seen no current scientist, no one working on the computer program primarily since Tequila, we have 2 snipers, one undercover Cia member, Vodka, then Gin, Bourbon and Vermouth. I need more to satify the image of the Bo I got from the early Haibara/Akemi episodes.

[dumytru]

I actually consider him underwhelming because the length of this arc really hindered him as a villain. Plus the fact that he had some traits that already belonged to previous characters - such as hating Akai.

To me it's just wrong to consider a character underwhelming just because of the length of the arc.
Bourbon hating Akai is indeed kinda wierd. He kinda loses points on originality as a character.

The two main ones are Sherry and Akai, so all the major Bo members from Gin to Vermouth to Bourbon, are going to share a hatred for one if not both of these two characters. Sherry's the traitor and Akai's the silver bullet.

I don't think Bourbon hates Sherry. He thinks of her as a traitor, but that's all.
His hate against Akai is different, it's something personal.
But then again, Akai is his rival in love, that turned out to be a snooping dog, his hate is justified.

Bourbon has appeared he's lived up to those expectations if you examine his observations and actions during cases.

I agree with you on that, he's pretty clever, and that's why I can't wait for the next confrontations!

Introducing other members of the BO

They don't need a whole arc, remember this guy?
But I think that they should be introduced only if they help moving the plot forwards, otherwise it'll be something like trivia.
I trust Gosho will figure something out. He's awesome at what he's doing.

Uh, at the end it'd be really nice, and obviously neccessary to introduce all the members, or well, at least show them.
The viewer/reader should have an idea about how big this organization is just by their number.
*imagine a scene where all the members are being arrested, I hope we'll see something like this at the end*

Knowing who these funders are, and having a clear understanding of the influential people behind the organizations operation, is extremely important for developing an organization which is powerful enough to be hunted in Japan, by both the Cia and the FBI. The people behind the scenes, who gives this organization the legs to be such a huge threat in both America and Japan, are definitly important story wise. Especilly if Conan is planning on completley taking down the organization

I think Gosho would introduce them only if they push the plot forward. Or at the end (as I said earlier).


Anyway, this is Gosho's story, we can only watch it and entertain ourselves.
By the way, DetectiveKir why do you spell his name "Goshu"?

[Kudo Shinchi]

I remember all the controversy this case generated back when it was released in the manga. Over a year later and it continues to do so.

I personally loved it. Fun mystery, cool setting, good suspense, lots of nice plot, some long awaited revelations (especially the piece regarding Elena's tapes, glad Gosho didn't forget about it)and it was great seeing Yukiko and Vermouth finally reunite, albeit as enemies this time. Only complaint would be the climax, which while I don't think was bad, probably could have been handled a bit better.

The anime adaptation was great, barring 704, which was ok. It could have used better art and better music, which is a shame since it should have been the best episode. Oh well, its still good.

Even now, though, I still don't completely understand what exactly took place on the Mystery Train. Was Conan aware that the BO would be there or not? What was the text he received in the second episode that sent him into such a panic? It was never made clear whether Conan was prepared for the BO coming or not. I mean, he couldn't have known Bourbon saw Shiho and was boarding the train, and yet he had Okiya and Yukiko on the train anyways, as if he were prepared for the possibility. The rather weak plan involving KID that he made on the go seems to suggest that the BO being on the train was something he didn't expect, otherwise he would have planned better. So yeah, that aspect of the case still confuses me. Maybe I just need to go back and watch the case more closely to get my answer, but it would be nice if someone can clear this up for me.

[DetectiveKir]

Even now, though, I still don't completely understand what exactly took place on the Mystery Train. Was Conan aware that the BO would be there or not? What was the text he received in the second episode that sent him into such a panic? It was never made clear whether Conan was prepared for the BO coming or not. I mean, he couldn't have known Bourbon saw Shiho and was boarding the train, and yet he had Okiya and Yukiko on the train anyways, as if he were prepared for the possibility. The rather weak plan involving KID that he made on the go seems to suggest that the BO being on the train was something he didn't expect, otherwise he would have planned better. So yeah, that aspect of the case still confuses me. Maybe I just need to go back and watch the case more closely to get my answer, but it would be nice if someone can clear this up for me.

Here's the sequence of events I believe took place on board Mystery train, but I still have a couple things I need to confirm.

0. The reason why Conan decided to go on the train in the first place, without changing his plans, was because, he, Akai and Yukiko were making a plan to fool Bourbon into beliving that Sherry died aboard the train; which would effectively stop the organizations hunt for her.

1. Conan most likely tried to convince Ran and Sonoko not to board, but realized it was pointless because of Sonoko's obsession with Kaito Kid, and to actually stop them he'd probally have to reveal himself. Conan also realized any way he tried to prevent the Detective Boys, from getting on the train, would tip Haibara off, to the information about Bourbon he's been hiding from her ever since Jodie called him. As a result Conan decided to bank on the idea, that as long as Bourbon was on board the train, the Bo wouldn't blow it up .

2. Conan was already aware of Bourbon's identity before going on the train. The reason why I say this, is because Akai saw Bourbon's face in Detectives Nocturne, so it's safe to conclude, that since they were rivals he would recognize him. And as we know Akai and Conan should be sharing information.

3. Conan was aware that Bourbon would be boarding the train, as Akai probably shared with him information about Bourbon going through the computer.

4. Conan and Akai weren't aware that Bourbon was working with Vermouth. This is important because Conan would assume that no Black org member would be able to recognize Ai in her current form, especially if they were basing it off the hooded picture uploaded by the Detective Boys. However, with Vermouth coming on board it meant Sherry wasn't safe simply by being a child.

5. The text message Conan received, that changed his attitude on board the train, was from Akai, claiming that Amuro was already on the train, so Vermouth was most likely the one disguised as Scar Akai.

6. Once Akai, Conan and Yukiko realized that Vermouth was on the train they tried to figure out a way to outsmart her, and keep a step ahead of her. This was all being planned through text messages. Conan realizes that Vermouth must have a reason for not wanting to kill Sherry whiles she's a child, and wants to use that weakness as a way to save Haibara.

7. Whiles investigating the case, Conan realizes that Kaito kid and his accomplish are disguised on board. This is when Conan realizes that disguising someone as Sherry would give Haibara the space she needed to leave the train safely. However, Akai belives that Vermouth who's a master of disguise will see through this easily, especilly if it's Yukiko.

8. They realize that someone disguising as Sherry could fool Bourbon, who isn't as familiar with Sherry's face as Vermouth is.

9. So Conan decides to use Yukiko to keep Vermouth distracted long enough so she never gets a chance to see Sherry, and see through the disguise. This is also when he decides that he'll have Kaito Kid disguised as Sherry rather than Yukiko.

10. During this time Akai and Yukiko set up the fake make up kit, and suitcase, to distract Vermouth. They also provide Kaito Kid with the Wig of Sherry's hair, because they belive Vermouth would assume that Yukiko having brown hair wouldn't need a wig to disguise as Sherry, and therefore wouldn't worry if it was missing.

11. After all the preparations are completed, Yukiko intentionally baited Vermouth by bumping into her in the hallway. Vermouth immediatley sees through her disguise, and checks the guest book to discover what room's she's staying in. Vermouth then disposes of the fake make up kit, and suitcase, as planned. Yukiko and Conan then work together to distract her for an extremly long period of time.

12. During this period Bourbon meets up with Kid disguised as Sherry, and is fooled by seemingly legitimate answers provided by Haibara. Bourbon had no direct relationship with Sherry in the past so he's not able to see through the disguise, as Vermouth would. He also doesn't know Sherry enough to know that her reaction, to his presence, isn't how she normally would react in a situation like this.

13. Finally, Akai realized earlier on, that if Bourbon took Sherry hostage, and met up with Vermouth when the train stopped, the plan would fail, and Kaito Kid would be in huge danger. As a result Akai decides he'll use a grenade, so that Kaito Kid can pull an escape in the few moments he's separated from Bourbon's eyes.

[Puto]

Of course, the question then becomes 'where the hell did Akai get a grenade from?'

[DetectiveKir]

Of course, the question then becomes 'where the hell did Akai get a grenade from?'

You know what.. Akai being Fbi and having a grenade on him does make sense, since Bourbon can have everything from a bug detector, to C4, to a screwdriver, to guns, to a phone on him at the same time lol.

[Kudo Shinchi]

@DetectiveKir Thanks, that actually sheds more light on the case and helps make the situation more clear. Gosho didn't explain what was going on on Conan's side of things, leaving it to the audience to piece it together; this seems like a plausible explanation.

As for where Akai got the grenade from, I can buy him having it on him in case of an emergency. Detective Nocturne made it obvious that he at least keeps a gun on him at all times (when he leaned out of Agasa's car during the car chase, he was reaching into his jacket in what looked like the position one who was reaching for a gun would be in).