Is Gosho Panicking?

[Commi-Ninja]

EDIT: As far as the topic goes, as long as this series doesn't step into the Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle territory, I think we're fine.

Agreed. TRC is extremely confusing. I mean, it's a good series, but keeping the characters straight? Nope, not gonna happen.

As far as Gosho panicking, I don't think so. I think, like others in this topic have said, that he has to add some things in as he goes along, but not that it's totally out of left field. Even if he has added characters he didn't intend to add way back at the beginning of Conan, it doesn't mean that those characters (and their ensuing plotlines) are then a cause for panic.

[Kudo Shinchi]

Also, as mentioned by another member, a lot of people here figured out the true identities of the Bourbon arc mystery characters, but the majority of people in other forums on the internet definitely had a harder time. I saw multiple people on the internet utterly shocked by the revelation that Okiya wasn't Bourbon. Any mystery, no matter how difficult, is easier when a a large group of people are discussing it together. Even if most readers figured out the identities of the mystery characters, why should that bother Gosho? DC is a mystery manga, with multiple clues pointing to the soultions to the mysteries it presents to the reader. If the readers figured it out, well, that's the point.

Besides, it is still my belief that Gosho never truly intended for the fact that Sera was Akai's sister to be a major or difficult mystery, and he pretty much blatantly stated it in interviews following Sera's intro, and wasn't very subtle about it in the manga either, what with the obvious bags under Sera's eyes. Gosho is not dumb; he'd know Sera's identity is obvious, especially since he used similar hints with Eisuke. Sera's real mystery is her back story and connection to Conan, which is getting elaborated on in the manga currently, and whose mysteries are not easy to figure out even to the people here. The twist mentioned probably isn't as out of the blue as it seems.

@Checkhov Interesting ideas. I think the Black Organization's planning agenda was planned from the beginning as well, or at least its bare outlines which were fleshed out later. There was an emphasis on programming and computers in relation to the BO up to Haibara's introduction (the Tequila case, the Night Baron virus.)It just didn't become a major part of the plot until the whole Itakura thing, but it had build up.

Also IMO I think Gosho planned out the majority of the rest of the story shortly after Haibara's intro, or generally around that time period. He probably took his original plans and fleshed them substantially prior to the beginning of the Vermouth arc. From the Vermouth arc's beginning we were bombarded about hints regarding Gin and Shiho's relationship, the APTX's true purpose, the first mention of Anokata, and throughout the arc we were introduced to FBI members, plot development on Haibara's parents, the BO's programming agenda, the deal with Vermouth, etc. There is heavy foreshadowing in this arc for future events and revelations, including Akai's relationship with Akemi (not revealed until near the end of the Kir arc), the BO's true purpose(not revealed yet), Vermouth's aging issues, past, motivations (still not revealed), plus tons of other stuff.

In retrospect its obvious the whole purpose of the Kir arc and the elaborate setup of Clash of Red and Black was that Akai fake his death at the end of it, which would lead to the more important Bourbon arc, where the mysteries left over from the Vermouth arc have finally become relevant again. Gosho probably always intended for a Bourbon-like BO member, but it is likely that he made a few changes/fleshed things out in the year and a half plot drought. I do think he always intended for three Bourbon suspects and the faking of Sherry's death since the arc's beginning, but needed more time to flesh certain aspects out. From what we've seen though Gosho seems to plan out his entire arcs, with all the little details and stuff, before he begins writing them, so his break from plot does seem a bit odd, unless he was planning for the arc after the Bourbon one simultaneously, which does seem likely.

[bluekaitou1412]

Whoop, sorry about that manga leak. My bad. I kinda dropped the anime right after DCTP stopped subbing it. -_-

I like the idea that Yoko was supposed to be Vermouth. I could remember pinning her as suspicious early on.

Spoiler:

Also I honestly think Okiya was really supposed to be Bourbon. I would like that.

[kkslider5552000]

Whoop, sorry about that manga leak. My bad. I kinda dropped the anime right after DCTP stopped subbing it. -_-

I like the idea that Yoko was supposed to be Vermouth. I could remember pinning her as suspicious early on.

Spoiler:

Also I honestly think Okiya was really supposed to be Bourbon. I would like that.

Spoiler:

I dunno, it seems likely that Scar Akai was always gonna be Bourbon. Especially with the names. God dammit Gundam.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Also, as mentioned by another member, a lot of people here figured out the true identities of the Bourbon arc mystery characters, but the majority of people in other forums on the internet definitely had a harder time.

This is the most annoying thing IMO. I don't think some people really appreciate the challenge of putting together a working theory that stands up a bit of questioning unless they have tried it themselves at some point. Unfortunately people seem to unconsciously equate someone got the right answer quickly to easy.

Any mystery, no matter how difficult, is easier when a a large group of people are discussing it together.

Yeah, DCTP would have destroyed the Vermouth arc had we been active. I don't remember how edogawa proboards did on the Kir arc, I wasn't really active on the forum scene back then.

Besides, it is still my belief that Gosho never truly intended for the fact that Sera was Akai's sister to be a major or difficult mystery, and he pretty much blatantly stated it in interviews following Sera's intro, and wasn't very subtle about it in the manga either, what with the obvious bags under Sera's eyes. Gosho is not dumb; he'd know Sera's identity is obvious, especially since he used similar hints with Eisuke. Sera's real mystery is her back story and connection to Conan, which is getting elaborated on in the manga currently, and whose mysteries are not easy to figure out even to the people here. The twist mentioned probably isn't as out of the blue as it seems.

Gosho's latest strategy is to have different difficulty levels for his mysteries to appeal to differing reader maturity. It is true that Sera had some suspicion about her early on with the whole Delete Ai scene (still hasn't been fully explained by the way). Still, she was the easiest to work out.
Amuro and Okiya were a bit harder. Those two had a Jodie / Araide dynamic, with Okiya taking the brunt of the suspicion and Bourbon playing not-related to the plot. The Gundam names were little hints to get people thinking in the right direction.
Scar Akai was harder than them because he had no gimmicks. It was straight up analysis of behavior consistency and looking at panels for clues. There were almost no hints from Conan about where the clues were or what is important to think about. On top of that, Scar Akai rescues Conan in his first case, which was a serious wrench for anyone to explain. The right-handed pistol shot was no gimme - you'd have to have noticed Akai was left handed, something which was not stated anywhere previous.
Akai's fake death was the hardest of all. No kid was going to get that right, and most adults wouldn't either. It was an extra challenge meant for people who realized Okiya must be Akai and had to figure out how he could be. Different people had most of the bits and pieces -Rikumichi's body, faked shots and blood, blood trails gone, cellphone is suspicious, but nobody really put it together until me and Kyuu had at it Phoenix Wright style. (Maybe someone else did earlier and I am forgetting. 2009 was a long time ago)

@Chekhov Interesting ideas. I think the Black Organization's planning agenda was planned from the beginning as well, or at least its bare outlines which were fleshed out later. There was an emphasis on programming and computers in relation to the BO up to Haibara's introduction (the Tequila case, the Night Baron virus.)It just didn't become a major part of the plot until the whole Itakura thing, but it had build up.

When you put it that way, if the computer agenda did exist from the beginning, ie. 1993-1994, it changes the perspective on what it could be. 1993-1994 was a major year in mass adoption of the internet. Doom had come out. With the internet being so new, I'm tempted to think it is not the core of Gosho's plan, and it doesn't seem to be based on the data we have. Rather, I think Gosho would focused on the established uses of data processing for businesses, solving problems, and making simulations... Artificial intelligence was in full swing in 1993, preoccupied with how to make a computer reason and behave in more human-like fashions. Viruses had been out for a good number of years but were finally picking up some notoriety. In 1993, Jurassic Park used computer-generated graphics extensively. Robotics was extremely popular in Japan at this time. Computers had been applied to problems of biology and chemistry for a while now.
I have some theories about the agenda, but nothing that will really stand up under much scrutiny.

Also IMO I think Gosho planned out the majority of the rest of the story shortly after Haibara's intro, or generally around that time period. He probably took his original plans and fleshed them substantially prior to the beginning of the Vermouth arc. From the Vermouth arc's beginning we were bombarded about hints regarding Gin and Shiho's relationship, the APTX's true purpose, the first mention of Anokata, and throughout the arc we were introduced to FBI members, plot development on Haibara's parents, the BO's programming agenda, the deal with Vermouth, etc. There is heavy foreshadowing in this arc for future events and revelations, including Akai's relationship with Akemi (not revealed until near the end of the Kir arc), the BO's true purpose(not revealed yet), Vermouth's aging issues, past, motivations (still not revealed), plus tons of other stuff.

In retrospect its obvious the whole purpose of the Kir arc and the elaborate setup of Clash of Red and Black was that Akai fake his death at the end of it, which would lead to the more important Bourbon arc, where the mysteries left over from the Vermouth arc have finally become relevant again. Gosho probably always intended for a Bourbon-like BO member, but it is likely that he made a few changes/fleshed things out in the year and a half plot drought. I do think he always intended for three Bourbon suspects and the faking of Sherry's death since the arc's beginning, but needed more time to flesh certain aspects out. From what we've seen though Gosho seems to plan out his entire arcs, with all the little details and stuff, before he begins writing them, so his break from plot does seem a bit odd, unless he was planning for the arc after the Bourbon one simultaneously, which does seem likely.

I do think Gosho is trying to keep several steps ahead plotwise, but I'm not sure the Kir arc was planned before the Vermouth arc started. We had a bit of a plot stop there too, the cellphone miniarc which went on for a little less than a year and a half.
I agree that it looks like the Kir arc was partially an excuse to bring out Akai's character history and have him fake his death. (The other excuse is establishing a way for Conan to get BO info without having to conveniently encounter a BO during a useful conversation) That said, I'm not sure that the fake death for Akai was decided at the same time his other characteristics - exBO (showed up in Vermouth arc), relationship with Akemi (also Vermouth arc). Conan probably acquired his second cellphone, necessary for the fake death trick, after the events of chapters 479-484 which is later than middle cellphone arc. He switched to a normal cell from the earring phone, by mid Vermouth arc (V33) after Akai had already been introduced.

I also don't the Bourbon arc had any significant planning in the Vermouth arc or earlier except for some general intentions like a certain type of enemy detective character who would maybe be named Bourbon and be an enemy of Akai because Akai did X. I do think Gosho had Okiya and Scar Akai down by Clash of Red and Black.
Sera wasn't intended prior to 564 (Hakuba's case) which is mid Kir arc. Honestly, I wonder if she was a late add in mid-Bourbon arc, explaining the massive break after scar Akai first appeared. If you think of her in terms of - how she effected the Bourbon plot and the actions of Okiya, Scar Akai/Amuro, and Conan, she doesn't virtually any connections other than shallow ones. She appears suspicious but she could be replaced by another character, omitted, or written out fairly easily). She was taken out right away in the train case too.
As for why Amuro appeared so late, I don't have much of a clue. It could be that he was intended to act as apprentice for only a short while before the train kicked off, which was delayed when Gosho was figuring out how to write Sera in.

[kkslider5552000]

Instead of panicking, Gosho obviously just did the smartest thing and decided to listen to literally every problem I had. That is clearly exactly what happened!

but seriously...he did address practically any problem I was having with the series and I am still so happy with that.

[Kudo Shinchi]

I do think Gosho is trying to keep several steps ahead plotwise, but I'm not sure the Kir arc was planned before the Vermouth arc started. We had a bit of a plot stop there too, the cellphone miniarc which went on for a little less than a year and a half.
I agree that it looks like the Kir arc was partially an excuse to bring out Akai's character history and have him fake his death. (The other excuse is establishing a way for Conan to get BO info without having to conveniently encounter a BO during a useful conversation) That said, I'm not sure that the fake death for Akai was decided at the same time his other characteristics - exBO (showed up in Vermouth arc), relationship with Akemi (also Vermouth arc). Conan probably acquired his second cellphone, necessary for the fake death trick, after the events of chapters 479-484 which is later than middle cellphone arc. He switched to a normal cell from the earring phone, by mid Vermouth arc (V33) after Akai had already been introduced.

Yeah, I don't think the details of the Kir arc were planned from the beginning, but I think its reasonable to believe that Gosho had a vague idea of what would transpire in it. The specifics regarding the CIA, Kir, Eisuke etc. were definitely planned during the cellphone arc, which was a bit longer than it needed to be, likely for that reason. The whole purpose of that short Ran suspicion incident in the cellphone arc was indeed likely a way for Conan to acquire the extra phone that would be needed later down the line. Still, its possible at the time that Gosho created Akai's character that he planned for him to fake his death sometime in the future, but didn't work out how the death would occur until the cellphone arc. We can't prove anything, either way.

I also don't the Bourbon arc had any significant planning in the Vermouth arc or earlier except for some general intentions like a certain type of enemy detective character who would maybe be named Bourbon and be an enemy of Akai because Akai did X. I do think Gosho had Okiya and Scar Akai down by Clash of Red and Black.
Sera wasn't intended prior to 564 (Hakuba's case) which is mid Kir arc. Honestly, I wonder if she was a late add in mid-Bourbon arc, explaining the massive break after scar Akai first appeared. If you think of her in terms of - how she effected the Bourbon plot and the actions of Okiya, Scar Akai/Amuro, and Conan, she doesn't virtually any connections other than shallow ones. She appears suspicious but she could be replaced by another character, omitted, or written out fairly easily). She was taken out right away in the train case too.
As for why Amuro appeared so late, I don't have much of a clue. It could be that he was intended to act as apprentice for only a short while before the train kicked off, which was delayed when Gosho was figuring out how to write Sera in.

I agree that the Bourbon arc's details were not fleshed out until the Kir arc, or maybe the cellphone arc too. It makes sense that Gosho would have had a a solid idea about the direction the story would go in after the Kir arc, since he started the Bourbon arc right after. It is likely that Sera was a late addition to the story. If Gosho had the majority of the Bourbon arc's details worked out at the time of the Kir arc, then being told by editors to add in a new character halfway through the Kir arc definitely would have thrown a wrench in plans. I think Gosho is attempting to integrate her character into the arc better, what with the increased focus on her. I wonder what exactly Gosho planned in the year and a half plot break halfway through the Bourbon arc. I guess its impossible to tell what he had down long before Sera's intro and what he added shortly before it, but it would be interesting to know.

Bottom line, I think Gosho has had a vague outline for the rest of the story since the Vermouth arc and fleshed out the specific details as he moved along.

[bluekaitou1412]

Whoop, sorry about that manga leak. My bad. I kinda dropped the anime right after DCTP stopped subbing it. -_-

I like the idea that Yoko was supposed to be Vermouth. I could remember pinning her as suspicious early on.

Spoiler:

Also I honestly think Okiya was really supposed to be Bourbon. I would like that.

Spoiler:

I dunno, it seems likely that Scar Akai was always gonna be Bourbon. Especially with the names. God dammit Gundam.

Yeah, well, point... but it could've been such a shocker. XD Given, a bad one, but still.

[Vinnie]

I don't think that Gosho is panicking, remember when Conan was kidnapped and Amuro was talking with Vermouth, Subaru was talking with (A?) and Sera was talking with (B?), well, This (B?) must be her middle brother. If he's panicking, he should be panicking since Sera entered in the series. It does make sense that she has a middle brother or a relative, who's pretty intelligent and helps her out in cases, even though he isn't a detective.

[Puto]

Okiya was introduced pretty quickly after Akai died. Immediately after the end of the Clash arc, in fact (right after Eisuke gets put on a bus).

[kkslider5552000]

A more interesting question.

[S.Vineyard]

Okiya was introduced pretty quickly after Akai died. Immediately after the end of the Clash arc, in fact (right after Eisuke gets put on a bus).

Plus...

Spoiler:

... it was already strongly hinted during his introduction that he is in fact Akai in diguise.

Gosho is not losing it. Imo. we got a bit unpatient. We always get these puzzle pieces from him, but not always for the puzzle we would like.

[bash7353]

[...]
I also don't the Bourbon arc had any significant planning in the Vermouth arc or earlier except for some general intentions like a certain type of enemy detective character who would maybe be named Bourbon and be an enemy of Akai because Akai did X. I do think Gosho had Okiya and Scar Akai down by Clash of Red and Black.
Sera wasn't intended prior to 564 (Hakuba's case) which is mid Kir arc. Honestly, I wonder if she was a late add in mid-Bourbon arc, explaining the massive break after scar Akai first appeared. If you think of her in terms of - how she effected the Bourbon plot and the actions of Okiya, Scar Akai/Amuro, and Conan, she doesn't virtually any connections other than shallow ones. She appears suspicious but she could be replaced by another character, omitted, or written out fairly easily). She was taken out right away in the train case too.
As for why Amuro appeared so late, I don't have much of a clue. It could be that he was intended to act as apprentice for only a short while before the train kicked off, which was delayed when Gosho was figuring out how to write Sera in.

I see a lot of similarities between the Vermouth arc and the Bourbon arc. Not in terms of actual plot, but in terms of devises used by Gosho throughout them. In both we get introduced to the idea that there is a to us previously unknown member of the Black Organization Vermouth or Bourbon that we have to assume is around, but we don't know who they are.

In the bus-hijacking case it is reveled that Vermouth is on the bus and the possibilities are, therefore, officially narrowed down to three: Araide (the one Vermouth disguised as), Jodie (the red herring) and Akai ("the third one on the list"). The revelation of Vermouth being Araide occurs in 345 where we learn that Jodie's FBI and that Akai has connections with them as well. (I'm not entirely sure how much we know about Akai at that time.) I think Detective's Nocturne is to the Bourbon arc what the bus-hijacking case is to the Vermouth arc. With Vermouth's phone call at the end it also officially narrows down the possibilities to three: Amuro (the one that we later learn is actually Bourbon), Okiya (the red herring) and Sera ("the third one on the list"). And then Mystery Train does for the Bourbon arc what 345 did for the Vermouth arc. It reveals Bourbon's true identity, gives us more information about the red herring and a little bit of information about "the third on the list". If I recall correctly there were a lot of mysteries surrounding Akai still unresolved at the end of 345, just like Sera after Mystery Train. This leads me, among those things, to conclude that Gosho intended the eye thingy at the end of Mystery Train not to be a strong hint that Okiya is Akai, but actually the official revelation that he is.

You point out that Sera wasn't actually needed for the Bourbon arc and could've easily been introduced after Mystery Train. I think the reason Gosho didn't is he wanted Sera to be the Bourbon arc's Akai ("the third on the list") and so he had to introduce her before that. I could imagine that Gosho would want Sera and Amuro to be introduced at around the same time, he did the same thing with Jodie and Akai. (Although that doesn't really hold up as they're not equivalents of each other.) You say Sera wasn't intended before the Hakuba case. I don't know where that information comes from, but assuming it is true, it's possible that there was another character that Gosho had originally planned to be the Bourbon arc's "third", but then for some reason changed his mind completely and created Sera to take up that role. That may have messed up Gosho's existing outline so much that he needed time to redo it. I suppose that would mostly (maybe even exclusively) affect post-"Mystery Train" plot, but as long as Gosho hasn't fully understood Sera he wouldn't want to introduce her yet. Therefore the long break before Sera and Amuro finally show up.

[Jd-]

I see a lot of similarities between the Vermouth arc and the Bourbon arc. Not in terms of actual plot, but in terms of devises used by Gosho throughout them. In both we get introduced to the idea that there is a to us previously unknown member of the Black Organization Vermouth or Bourbon that we have to assume is around, but we don't know who they are.

In the bus-hijacking case it is reveled that Vermouth is on the bus and the possibilities are, therefore, officially narrowed down to three: Araide (the one Vermouth disguised as), Jodie (the red herring) and Akai ("the third one on the list"). The revelation of Vermouth being Araide occurs in 345 where we learn that Jodie's FBI and that Akai has connections with them as well. (I'm not entirely sure how much we know about Akai at that time.) I think Detective's Nocturne is to the Bourbon arc what the bus-hijacking case is to the Vermouth arc. With Vermouth's phone call at the end it also officially narrows down the possibilities to three: Amuro (the one that we later learn is actually Bourbon), Okiya (the red herring) and Sera ("the third one on the list"). And then Mystery Train does for the Bourbon arc what 345 did for the Vermouth arc. It reveals Bourbon's true identity, gives us more information about the red herring and a little bit of information about "the third on the list". If I recall correctly there were a lot of mysteries surrounding Akai still unresolved at the end of 345, just like Sera after Mystery Train. This leads me, among those things, to conclude that Gosho intended the eye thingy at the end of Mystery Train not to be a strong hint that Okiya is Akai, but actually the official revelation that he is.

You point out that Sera wasn't actually needed for the Bourbon arc and could've easily been introduced after Mystery Train. I think the reason Gosho didn't is he wanted Sera to be the Bourbon arc's Akai ("the third on the list") and so he had to introduce her before that. I could imagine that Gosho would want Sera and Amuro to be introduced at around the same time, he did the same thing with Jodie and Akai. (Although that doesn't really hold up as they're not equivalents of each other.) You say Sera wasn't intended before the Hakuba case. I don't know where that information comes from, but assuming it is true, it's possible that there was another character that Gosho had originally planned to be the Bourbon arc's "third", but then for some reason changed his mind completely and created Sera to take up that role. That may have messed up Gosho's existing outline so much that he needed time to redo it. I suppose that would mostly (maybe even exclusively) affect post-"Mystery Train" plot, but as long as Gosho hasn't fully understood Sera he wouldn't want to introduce her yet. Therefore the long break before Sera and Amuro finally show up.

This post is interesting, because I had deja vu reading it in the form of, "I feel like I've made these exact points in the past on this exact topic." You could say I'm in complete agreement with your line of reasoning here.

What makes it tricky to nail down exactly what Gosho is up to is the fact he really can draw it out as long as he'd like. I haven't really been shocked with any of the developments over the past 5-6 years except for the introduction of the...

Spoiler: MANGA Spoilers!

"other brother" character.

That is the one time that I really couldn't pinpoint exactly what Gosho was thinking. Thus far, it feels needlessly repetitive within the same story arc and again retreading sibling identities all over again (something he has become increasingly fond of in recent years, surely). I really don't know why he introduced this plot thread so late in the game, but I feel virtually certain he didn't come up with it until only very recently and did so almost definitely to prolong Sera's part in the plot a little longer while nothing else was happening. That, and he likes the idea of having an unidentified force operating in the series at nearly all times.

Ideally:

Spoiler: MANGA Spoilers!

I would hope that the "other brother" character is a complete red herring and doesn't actually exist.

That's a solution I would be OK with and would be something new that Gosho hasn't really explored very much. Playing pin-the-tail-on-the-plot-character isn't a game I want to play for another two-three years, so if we can nip this one early, I'll be much pleased.

[kkslider5552000]

I have to disagree on being shocking. Gosho revealing who Bourbon was and just continuing the arc as is is something I don't think I would ever guess and I honestly respect that he was willing to abandon this main part of this mystery in his mystery series, regardless of any issues that come from that.