Ran's role changed? Other's too?

[kkslider5552000]

Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan.

Why don't you troll the Haibara/couple threads? I'm trying to be polite and move the "Ran sucks" debates out of the Haibara threads so they can focus on saying how awesome and wonderful Haibara is. Apparently Ran isn't a topic open to discussion at all, just bashing. (And I'm not going {to} chicken out and edit this out this time. {I'll edit out the vulgar epithet, though  ::) ... ::sigh:: and get the attribution right...}

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at the fact that you actually took my post seriously.

I wasn't taking your post seriously. I called you a troll, right? I am offended because you apparently won't let us discuss Ran seriously, so you decide it'll be fun to troll the thread. Why not let us over-analyze Ran and her role in the story like one trillion other idle geeky threads on the internets? Or why not troll the actual shipping threads? Posting “who caresâ€

[ranger]

yeah kkslider, I'm pretty sure your avatar is only working for you

okay, while I admit that Ran and Haibara both become the damsel in distress (with Ran getting in trouble, n haibara depending on conan to protect her), the most irritating thing ever (thats probably the sole reason why I dont like Ran) is the fact that she cries sooo much!!!  It just gets really annoying, and it looks like she is very clingy.

I cannot count how many times when she starts yelling "shinichi" with tears in her eyes and starts looking for him.  While I do know that they are childhood friends / boyfriend-girlfriend undeclared sorta, the guy calls you like every 2 days almost.  I mean, I wouldn't mind gosho giving some moments like this, but jesus christ Ran, come on.

Honestly, back on topic... (sorry about the rant, it'sjust my opinion, not trying to offend anyone), I really think Ran's role has kinda become the "suspicious one".  I think her story from here until the end, will be like her "internal struggle" of whether conan and shinichi are the same person, and her being all suspicious and what-not.

[soratothamax]

as i said... i have no plan on arguing!!!  JUST A COMMENT 
don't take it too seriously!!
CHILL... i said it from the start "and im NOT creating a fight with CoAi fans."
gets?!?!

but still.... haha.. nevermind... but honestly... i love the coai scenes better.. but still!!!
haahahaha.... i think i will LOVE the next chapter... I JUST LOVE BO AND HAIBS AND CONAN .


WEEEEEEEEEEEEE..... SO,  i wish we have LOVE and PEACE 
no misunderstanding PLEASE 

I think they were talking to me. I apologize for my two cents on Ai/Conan, just expressing that the reason I like a couple has nothing to do with my outlook on characters. I like Ayumi and Mistuhiko, but I don't like Ayumi as a character. I just like their romance. Many people confuse my outlook on individual characters with my view on romance. Many people misunderstand my way of thinking and think I hate a character just because I say I don't like Shin/Ran. It's not that I don't like either of those characters. I just don't like them TOGETHER. Simple.

But it's unavoidable to bring up couples because...well Ran is only important as the lover. If she becomes important it will be for the following reasons: 1) she suspects Conan of being Shinichi....big whoop so has everybody else, like Heiji and Eusike, and they are not so important either. And even if she does find out, what will she do? She can't do much but call the police... 2) Convinces Vermouth not to kill Shinichi, which will prove effective in Vermouth's case, but something anyone can do. It also will not stop the boss from killing Vermouth if he finds she saved Shinichi, and it won't stop that person from continuing his plan. 3) She occasionally helps with cases, okay, so has the DBoys, and they are not important. Really, Ran didn't need to solve those cases because Shinichi would've if she didn't...it's not her thing, lets face it.

To compare Ran to other female characters is also unavoidable as well. If you see a character you think is more important than the "main girl character" anyone would question why that is so. Why should any character be more important than Ran? I can say that Ran is in the same boat as all the other female characters except Haibara and the villains. I mean, how many heroines are involved with the BO AND cases? Almost all the females are involved with one or the other, or neither.  But not ALL.

[Nyarl]

Conan is a retard for trusting him just because he's a Holmes fan.

Why don't you troll the Haibara/couple threads? I'm trying to be polite and move the "Ran sucks" debates out of the Haibara threads so they can focus on saying how awesome and wonderful Haibara is. Apparently Ran isn't a topic open to discussion at all, just bashing. (And I'm not going {to} chicken out and edit this out this time. {I'll edit out the vulgar epithet, though  ::) ... ::sigh:: and get the attribution right...}

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry at the fact that you actually took my post seriously.

I wasn't taking your post seriously. I called you a troll, right? I am offended because you apparently won't let us discuss Ran seriously, so you decide it'll be fun to troll the thread. Why not let us over-analyze Ran and her role in the story like one trillion other idle geeky threads on the internets? Or why not troll the actual shipping threads? Posting “who caresâ€

[kkslider5552000]

[quote="Nyarl"]
Wait, now I was supposed {to take} almost all of your post seriously?... oh I see, I was really supposed bite on the, “It'll be Ran's fault Conan dies,â€

[kirite]

Now if it was a character that is not meant to be as important, it doesn't matter if they become neglected...as long as they come back eventually. But with Ran in every case, supposedly supposed to be the "main girl character," she ends up taking up space....

Well you already know my opinion on the "main girl character" thing so I won't go into it.

Ran's role in cases is the same as Haibara's, DB's, Kogoro's, Agasa's, Eisuke's, Jodie's , Takagi's, etc...  Bystanders who randomly inject "oh I see!" in between Conan's explaination.

(though in Kogoro's case more like a "zzzzz" xD)

The only people who are an exception to this are other "detective minded people".  Heiji, Saguru, Akai, etc... people who can keep up the Conan's detective pace- as in figure out the same time he figures it out- not during explainations.  

I believe has always been like this ever since the beginning for all characters.  It's the element of a "detection show" done by the main detective character.  The detective explains, and bystanders listen going NO WAI/ZOMGZ/OH I KNOW THIS.  

[soratothamax]

Now if it was a character that is not meant to be as important, it doesn't matter if they become neglected...as long as they come back eventually. But with Ran in every case, supposedly supposed to be the "main girl character," she ends up taking up space....

Well you already know my opinion on the "main girl character" thing so I won't go into it.

Ran's role in cases is the same as Haibara's, DB's, Kogoro's, Agasa's, Eisuke's, Jodie's , Takagi's, etc...  Bystanders who randomly inject "oh I see!" in between Conan's explaination.

(though in Kogoro's case more like a "zzzzz" xD)

The only people who are an exception to this are other "detective minded people".  Heiji, Saguru, Akai, etc... people who can keep up the Conan's detective pace- as in figure out the same time he figures it out- not during explainations.  

I believe has always been like this ever since the beginning for all characters.  It's the element of a "detection show" done by the main detective character.  The detective explains, and bystanders listen going NO WAI/ZOMGZ/OH I KNOW THIS.  

but all of those other characters are not meant to be more important than Ran, and yet they have more importance to the story then she does. At least Jodie, Haibara, FBI/BO has to do with BO cases. Everybody else is pointless in most episodes. Ran is supposed to be MORE important than almost all of the characters, and yet she isn't. That's what makes her seem....well, just..there. It seems like Goshyo just stuck Ran in the story as the lover, that's what it seems like. Yes, like wallpaper. It SEEMED like he looked at all his characters and said, "hey, Shinichi needs a lover" and Badaboom, badabam, invented Ran who won't outshine him, will boost his ego by her support, and absolutely love him so much she won't ever look at any other man because Shinichi is supposed to be "so awesome".....this may not be the case, but so far, it looks like it is. This makes Ran seem less important.

I'm sorry, but I'm not fond of Shonen women lately....I'll stick to Seinen. I guess because I'm getting older....

[kirite]

I'm sorry, but I'm not fond of Shonen women lately....I'll stick to Seinen. I guess because I'm getting older....

Don't look to Seinen for help there, less then 50% of Seinen manga I can think of has "good" female characters all the way through.  

Though from series like Veritas (Korean fighting manwa) I'm hoping the industry will bring in some more sexy bitchy woman xD (I love them manipulative).  I guess it depends on your taste : ).

And err the following is fangirling, I'll skip it if I were you:

Spoiler:

OMG YOU MUST READ FULL METAL ALCHEMIST.

Characters actually become more developed out of their assigned roles over time instead of the usual character decay!  Even the secondary characters and villians who you see once will randomly come back in to the series and be extremely awesome.  And oh I'm only talking about the manga...not sure about the new FMA season yet :].  

Though hmm...if you're talking about a main girl character, I don't know who that is.  Windry...maybe?  But eh her story is really awesome ;__;.  Heck everyone's story is really awesome.  

Read ittttttt 8D.

-end fangirling-

I think the more shonen tries to portray girls "badass"... though I don't think they're doing it right.  For example some series seem to purposely avoid any mentions of romance.  Usually even Shonen manga they will have a romance element of some sort (useless main guy like popular girl, popular girl likes useless main guy, blah blah).  I'm guessing that by not having romance mentioned, all the pairings are open and that the series will be more "innocent", because children never think of romance and crushes oh no (sarcasm).  Girls are also quite capable and always have arcs where they develop their character + epic fight scene....though I have yet to see one where girls do the saving.

I would avoid the long shonen series with multiple characters and a fixated marketable object/game.  Apparently girl characters can't be awesome in those.  Well actually there will always be -one- girl who's awesome but then she'll get beaten and turned into a fanservice character or something.  Anyways these series are charactersise by the guys doing something that girls won't be able to participate or is "suppose to take no interest in".  Soccer, tennis, children's card game, weird video games, err...flying tops et etc are things to avoid xD.    

Unless you're watching it for the yaoi, then who cares about girl characters? LOL

[Introuble]

Now if it was a character that is not meant to be as important, it doesn't matter if they become neglected...as long as they come back eventually. But with Ran in every case, supposedly supposed to be the "main girl character," she ends up taking up space....

Well you already know my opinion on the "main girl character" thing so I won't go into it.

Ran's role in cases is the same as Haibara's, DB's, Kogoro's, Agasa's, Eisuke's, Jodie's , Takagi's, etc...  Bystanders who randomly inject "oh I see!" in between Conan's explaination.

(though in Kogoro's case more like a "zzzzz" xD)

The only people who are an exception to this are other "detective minded people".  Heiji, Saguru, Akai, etc... people who can keep up the Conan's detective pace- as in figure out the same time he figures it out- not during explainations.  

I believe has always been like this ever since the beginning for all characters.  It's the element of a "detection show" done by the main detective character.  The detective explains, and bystanders listen going NO WAI/ZOMGZ/OH I KNOW THIS.  

but all of those other characters are not meant to be more important than Ran, and yet they have more importance to the story then she does. At least Jodie, Haibara, FBI/BO has to do with BO cases. Everybody else is pointless in most episodes. Ran is supposed to be MORE important than almost all of the characters, and yet she isn't. That's what makes her seem....well, just..there. It seems like Goshyo just stuck Ran in the story as the lover, that's what it seems like. Yes, like wallpaper. It SEEMED like he looked at all his characters and said, "hey, Shinichi needs a lover" and Badaboom, badabam, invented Ran who won't outshine him, will boost his ego by her support, and absolutely love him so much she won't ever look at any other man because Shinichi is supposed to be "so awesome".....this may not be the case, but so far, it looks like it is. This makes Ran seem less important.

I'm sorry, but I'm not fond of Shonen women lately....I'll stick to Seinen. I guess because I'm getting older....

well ran is portrayed as a normal girl
and obviously she is the love interest of shinichi.....childhood adventures,moments,etc
aside from that she takes care of conan/becomes suspicious about him
makes the story more interesting befriending sonoko and kazuha
blah blah so on and so forth.... ran was never meant to be part of the BO action
conan even keeps it a secret that he is shinichi because if he tells ran then it would put her in danger
and im sure shinichi would not like that.the thing is jodie is part of the FBI and haibs is a former BO member
they are not regular high school students who study at teitan.do you expect her to barge in the BO base idk and say give shinichi the antitode?
NO ran is not rambo k?

but she is important obviously not to the main plot because shes just a regular high school student
idk if she would try to help if she knows about conan = shinichi but how would we know shinichi wont even tell her.but she is important!yes her main part in the story is shinichis love interest (ran loves shinichi and shinichi loves ran)ran does not have to be part of the BO plot in order to be important or that important
ran must do what she should do. female high school students do not fight deadly criminal orginazation.
ran is shinichis motivation too thats why shinichi desperatley wants to grow big again yes it is not his only motivation but it is his main motivation.

haibara is a former member of the BO so i dont expect her going to teitan and hanging out with friends
as the maker of aptx i expect her to come up with a antitode provide conan with info and help himzzzz!!

[soratothamax]

I'm sorry, but I'm not fond of Shonen women lately....I'll stick to Seinen. I guess because I'm getting older....

Don't look to Seinen for help there, less then 50% of Seinen manga I can think of has "good" female characters all the way through.  

Though from series like Veritas (Korean fighting manwa) I'm hoping the industry will bring in some more sexy bitchy woman xD (I love them manipulative).  I guess it depends on your taste : ).

And err the following is fangirling, I'll skip it if I were you:

Spoiler:

OMG YOU MUST READ FULL METAL ALCHEMIST.

Characters actually become more developed out of their assigned roles over time instead of the usual character decay!  Even the secondary characters and villians who you see once will randomly come back in to the series and be extremely awesome.  And oh I'm only talking about the manga...not sure about the new FMA season yet :].  

Though hmm...if you're talking about a main girl character, I don't know who that is.  Windry...maybe?  But eh her story is really awesome ;__;.  Heck everyone's story is really awesome.  

Read ittttttt 8D.

-end fangirling-

I think the more shonen tries to portray girls "badass"... though I don't think they're doing it right.  For example some series seem to purposely avoid any mentions of romance.  Usually even Shonen manga they will have a romance element of some sort (useless main guy like popular girl, popular girl likes useless main guy, blah blah).  I'm guessing that by not having romance mentioned, all the pairings are open and that the series will be more "innocent", because children never think of romance and crushes oh no (sarcasm).  Girls are also quite capable and always have arcs where they develop their character + epic fight scene....though I have yet to see one where girls do the saving.

I would avoid the long shonen series with multiple characters and a fixated marketable object/game.  Apparently girl characters can't be awesome in those.  Well actually there will always be -one- girl who's awesome but then she'll get beaten and turned into a fanservice character or something.  Anyways these series are charactersise by the guys doing something that girls won't be able to participate or is "suppose to take no interest in".  Soccer, tennis, children's card game, weird video games, err...flying tops et etc are things to avoid xD.    

Unless you're watching it for the yaoi, then who cares about girl characters? LOL

The following is answering to Fan Girl-dom

Spoiler:

I COMPLETELY AGREE! I am a huge fan of Full Metal Alchemist! Aside from DC of course. But all of the characters have such a unique back story and such great development, you can't help but love all the characters! I really love the manga, but for once, I actually found enjoyment in the anime!  I can't believe you brought it upbecause that is what I was thinking of when i was thinking of a story with some good character development...not that DC doesn't have interesting characters, but you get what I mean...

The way you described it just now is the way I see it. LOL Shonen is like that it completely.

I think with Seinen there is more variety, however. In some animes, like XXXHolic the girl was completely nice, but in the end....well, turned out to bring bad luck to the person who loved her, and so, they never ended up together....and then Ghost in the Shell is Seinen, and the female who is the main character, is really, really "bad girl type." It's not as idealized as Shonen. Hey, 50% is a large amount compared to Shonen, which I would average 20% having tough females.....

Detective Conan is like that in the way they think woman should act. (Shojo is worse...) They have this "Geisha-like" demeanor....and there are a few far and between females who have a hard poker face, but that's very few...

[soratothamax]

Now if it was a character that is not meant to be as important, it doesn't matter if they become neglected...as long as they come back eventually. But with Ran in every case, supposedly supposed to be the "main girl character," she ends up taking up space....

Well you already know my opinion on the "main girl character" thing so I won't go into it.

Ran's role in cases is the same as Haibara's, DB's, Kogoro's, Agasa's, Eisuke's, Jodie's , Takagi's, etc...  Bystanders who randomly inject "oh I see!" in between Conan's explaination.

(though in Kogoro's case more like a "zzzzz" xD)

The only people who are an exception to this are other "detective minded people".  Heiji, Saguru, Akai, etc... people who can keep up the Conan's detective pace- as in figure out the same time he figures it out- not during explainations.  

I believe has always been like this ever since the beginning for all characters.  It's the element of a "detection show" done by the main detective character.  The detective explains, and bystanders listen going NO WAI/ZOMGZ/OH I KNOW THIS.  

but all of those other characters are not meant to be more important than Ran, and yet they have more importance to the story then she does. At least Jodie, Haibara, FBI/BO has to do with BO cases. Everybody else is pointless in most episodes. Ran is supposed to be MORE important than almost all of the characters, and yet she isn't. That's what makes her seem....well, just..there. It seems like Goshyo just stuck Ran in the story as the lover, that's what it seems like. Yes, like wallpaper. It SEEMED like he looked at all his characters and said, "hey, Shinichi needs a lover" and Badaboom, badabam, invented Ran who won't outshine him, will boost his ego by her support, and absolutely love him so much she won't ever look at any other man because Shinichi is supposed to be "so awesome".....this may not be the case, but so far, it looks like it is. This makes Ran seem less important.

I'm sorry, but I'm not fond of Shonen women lately....I'll stick to Seinen. I guess because I'm getting older....

well ran is portrayed as a normal girl
and obviously she is the love interest of shinichi.....childhood adventures,moments,etc
aside from that she takes care of conan/becomes suspicious about him
makes the story more interesting befriending sonoko and kazuha
blah blah so on and so forth.... ran was never meant to be part of the BO action
conan even keeps it a secret that he is shinichi because if he tells ran then it would put her in danger
and im sure shinichi would not like that.the thing is jodie is part of the FBI and haibs is a former BO member
they are not regular high school students who study at teitan.do you expect her to barge in the BO base idk and say give shinichi the antitode?
NO ran is not rambo k?

but she is important obviously not to the main plot because shes just a regular high school student
idk if she would try to help if she knows about conan = shinichi but how would we know shinichi wont even tell her.but she is important!yes her main part in the story is shinichis love interest (ran loves shinichi and shinichi loves ran)ran does not have to be part of the BO plot in order to be important or that important
ran must do what she should do. female high school students do not fight deadly criminal orginazation.
ran is shinichis motivation too thats why shinichi desperatley wants to grow big again yes it is not his only motivation but it is his main motivation.

haibara is a former member of the BO so i dont expect her going to teitan and hanging out with friends
as the maker of aptx i expect her to come up with a antitode provide conan with info and help himzzzz!!

ummm being suspicious of Conan isn't really important....many other characters have been. And even if she finds out. So?.....what will that do? She won't be able to do anything will she? what can she do about it? Being Shinichi's love interest is a very vague, and bland importance. It's like saying the Detective Boys are important because they are friends with Haibara.....If she's only there for that, she will be taking up space in most of the episodes, which don't involve her love for Shinichi.....unless she becomes the D.I.D. again and again....

And yes Shinichi wants to grow big for her, but there are other reasons why he wants to grow big. He hints that it's mostly for Ran, but it is still a vague response from him.....especially considering he has many other reasons for wanting to be Kudo Shinichi again....

I know Ran is a normal girl, but in this particular type of anime, that role pushes her behind all the other characters of interest. She could become neglected until the end, where that will be the only time she will ever truly be of use. It's a shame she is just so normal, because so many characters have to have their turn to explain their backgrounds (Okiya, Haibara, Akai, etc...). Ran will be pushed to the back burner, and it's due to her lack of importance in the story. In a long anime with many characters, normal characters often get neglected and leave for "long periods of time" or remain inactive until they are needed at the end. I don't expect her to be a part of the BO now, but due to the long story, now all of the "normal" characters won't have much of a moment to shine, as her whole personality and background was already explained in the beginning of the show...so there's not much else to go on with her except her missing Shinichi all the time or suspecting somebody all the time. She can't help the role she has now, but that role has consequences. She probably should've had a more important role from the beginning....

[kirite]

Detective Conan is like that in the way they think woman should act. (Shojo is worse...) They have this "Geisha-like" demeanor....and there are a few far and between females who have a hard poker face, but that's very few...

Actually Shoujo isn't that bad : o.  Technically speaking Shoujo mangas are suppose to appeal to girls (though guys love them too lol).  In Shoujo the guys remain 2D pieces of sparkly cardboard cutouts while the girls get the character development lol.  Unfortunately a lot of Shoujo series seem to get this wrong (but then it's good for the yaoi fangirls if the girl isn't that likeable ).  I'm still not sure exactly what you're looking for in a female character but I think you'll have better luck finding good female characters in shoujo then shonen (so shoujo is not the worse).  Compared to male mangakas, I think woman mangakas will have a easier time breaking out of stereotypes and really develope female characters (which is why FMA is awesome, omg I love you Hiromu-sensei!!! *squee*). 

"Geisha-like"....considering Geisha's are really quite awesome I'll translate that phrase in my head to "Yamato Nadeshiko" instead.  Yamato Nadeshiko basically means "idea Japanese woman" (looked it up on wiki).  Though I believe the popular girl character nowadays are tsunderes xD.  Tora Dora, Haruhi, etc...

Hmm hard pokerface.  The thing with hard poker-face characters (not just woman) is that mangakas will always soften them up for "depth".  Again not 100% sure what you mean by that xD.

Personally I love "smiley-face-manipulative-on-the-inside-maybe-insane-killer" so I don't have much trouble finding characters I enjoy.  For example Eisuke.  I loved it when we're not sure if he's a part of the B.O. or not.  If he really was then he really is the ultimate smiley face manipulative on the inside maybe insane killer xD.  Though I'm happy that he's infact not a killer as well <3.

ummm being suspicious of Conan isn't really important....many other characters have been. And even if she finds out. So?.....what will that do? She won't be able to do anything will she? what can she do about it?

Actually Ran's significance in a "find out who Conan is" scenario is that if she does find out she will not tell him that she knows...and that she'll protect him however she can (girls in love are really scary).  Conan is a kid and she only views Conan as being nosy and likes to mess with things.  However if it's Shinichi then Ran knows he has a bad habit of going down dark alleyways following men dressed in black suits without backup.  If she does confirm he's Shinichi (yet again) then I think her role will become much more active (making sure he doesn't almost die, again).  Personally I really wish this wouldn't happen, it's basically a one way ticket to "protect Conan from bullet and die" or something equally horrible ;__;.  Though if this scenario occurs then it'll be interesting to see how Ran will protect Shinichi without him suspecting anything (it's like their current scenario but reverse o_o).  She wouldn't want him to know because she'll be worried that he's worried that she's...omg my head hurts.

What role do you think Ran should have instead of normal girl then?

[soratothamax]

Detective Conan is like that in the way they think woman should act. (Shojo is worse...) They have this "Geisha-like" demeanor....and there are a few far and between females who have a hard poker face, but that's very few...

Actually Shoujo isn't that bad : o.  Technically speaking Shoujo mangas are suppose to appeal to girls (though guys love them too lol).  In Shoujo the guys remain 2D pieces of sparkly cardboard cutouts while the girls get the character development lol.  Unfortunately a lot of Shoujo series seem to get this wrong (but then it's good for the yaoi fangirls if the girl isn't that likeable ).  I'm still not sure exactly what you're looking for in a female character but I think you'll have better luck finding good female characters in shoujo then shonen (so shoujo is not the worse).  Compared to male mangakas, I think woman mangakas will have a easier time breaking out of stereotypes and really develope female characters (which is why FMA is awesome, omg I love you Hiromu-sensei!!! *squee*).  

"Geisha-like"....considering Geisha's are really quite awesome I'll translate that phrase in my head to "Yamato Nadeshiko" instead.  Yamato Nadeshiko basically means "idea Japanese woman" (looked it up on wiki).  Though I believe the popular girl character nowadays are tsunderes xD.  Tora Dora, Haruhi, etc...

Hmm hard pokerface.  The thing with hard poker-face characters (not just woman) is that mangakas will always soften them up for "depth".   Again not 100% sure what you mean by that xD.

Personally I love "smiley-face-manipulative-on-the-inside-maybe-insane-killer" so I don't have much trouble finding characters I enjoy.  For example Eisuke.  I loved it when we're not sure if he's a part of the B.O. or not.  If he really was then he really is the ultimate smiley face manipulative on the inside maybe insane killer xD.  Though I'm happy that he's infact not a killer as well <3.

ummm being suspicious of Conan isn't really important....many other characters have been. And even if she finds out. So?.....what will that do? She won't be able to do anything will she? what can she do about it?

Actually Ran's significance in a "find out who Conan is" scenario is that if she does find out she will not tell him that she knows...and that she'll protect him however she can (girls in love are really scary).  Conan is a kid and she only views Conan as being nosy and likes to mess with things.  However if it's Shinichi then Ran knows he has a bad habit of going down dark alleyways following men dressed in black suits without backup.   If she does confirm he's Shinichi (yet again) then I think her role will become much more active (making sure he doesn't almost die, again).  Personally I really wish this wouldn't happen, it's basically a one way ticket to "protect Conan from bullet and die" or something equally horrible ;__;.  Though if this scenario occurs then it'll be interesting to see how Ran will protect Shinichi without him suspecting anything (it's like their current scenario but reverse o_o).  She wouldn't want him to know because she'll be worried that he's worried that she's...omg my head hurts.

What role do you think Ran should have instead of normal girl then?

I think Ran should be the boss' granddaughter! And then she'll be shocked and never trust the ones she loves again. And Shinichi will be surprised because he always thought she was a normal girl.....If Ran did know she would TRY to protect him, but even without knowing Conan and Shinichi, she is very protective of him anyway, so it wouldn't really shift the story in any way. She still follows him down dark alleyways because she knows Conan disappears a lot....

Ran TRYING to save Shinichi is still nothing. She really is not capable of saving him from the BO. She can TRY. But she will be unsuccessful...we know this already. Ran really doesn't have the resources to take down any BO member. Ran has proven ineffective with her fighting....lately when Shinichi is around she becomes the D.I.D....and chances are, instead of "saving" Shinichi, she'll be the one to get kidnapped and put in danger. I think if she had more roles like in that episode where Vermouth was revealed to be Araide-Sensei and she saved Haibara's life, she would be better off.

Anyway, yes Shoujo does have very brave girls sometimes, and the boys are so weak. But even in shoujo they are Geisha-like....Geisha isn't always a bad thing, it is just not what every woman is like. Every woman doesn't have to cater to a man and be motherly all the time and be so "innocent and girly." There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just so common in animes that people think it should be the standard for all women. It's a stereotype, and it puts the "different" woman to the back-burner, as if that is not a real woman. This is common in almost every anime. The "Geisha-like" girl gets all the attention and is considered "love material" and is considered a "good woman" when a woman who doesn't act all giddy all the time can be a good woman too. And yet they usually get the "death-roles." Girls like Ayumi and Ran get more attention from guys in the anime than girls like Jodie-Sensei and Haibara. Satou is tough, but she has a sweet, overly justice personality. You either have to be fussy, emotional, pretty, or sweet, innocent, motherly, and protective to be considered a woman at all.

[Vapid Philosophy]

I think Ran should be the boss' granddaughter! And then she'll be shocked and never trust the ones she loves again. And Shinichi will be surprised because he always thought she was a normal girl.....If Ran did know she would TRY to protect him, but even without knowing Conan and Shinichi, she is very protective of him anyway, so it wouldn't really shift the story in any way. She still follows him down dark alleyways because she knows Conan disappears a lot....

Ran TRYING to save Shinichi is still nothing. She really is not capable of saving him from the BO. She can TRY. But she will be unsuccessful...we know this already. Ran really doesn't have the resources to take down any BO member. Ran has proven ineffective with her fighting....lately when Shinichi is around she becomes the D.I.D....and chances are, instead of "saving" Shinichi, she'll be the one to get kidnapped and put in danger. I think if she had more roles like in that episode where Vermouth was revealed to be Araide-Sensei and she saved Haibara's life, she would be better off.

Anyway, yes Shoujo does have very brave girls sometimes, and the boys are so weak. But even in shoujo they are Geisha-like....Geisha isn't always a bad thing, it is just not what every woman is like. Every woman doesn't have to cater to a man and be motherly all the time and be so "innocent and girly." There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just so common in animes that people think it should be the standard for all women. It's a stereotype, and it puts the "different" woman to the back-burner, as if that is not a real woman. This is common in almost every anime. The "Geisha-like" girl gets all the attention and is considered "love material" and is considered a "good woman" when a woman who doesn't act all giddy all the time can be a good woman too. And yet they usually get the "death-roles." Girls like Ayumi and Ran get more attention from guys in the anime than girls like Jodie-Sensei and Haibara. Satou is tough, but she has a sweet, overly justice personality. You either have to be fussy, emotional, pretty, or sweet, innocent, motherly, and protective to be considered a woman at all.

Just an infrequent poster adding my two cents. Please don't eat me alive.

I don't really agree when you say that Ran is ineffective with her fighting. I don't think she can take out the whole of BO but I'm pretty sure she could take out Vodka sans-Gin pretty easily. Every time Ran has attempted karate, she usually succeeds at taking down whoever the target is.

IMHO, Ran as the damsel-in-distress doesn't bother me that much. It is pretty cool when we get to see her more active and more kick-butt, but when she is in danger, it kind of moves the story along at a much quicker pace. Shinichi does have a strong sense of justice which is what acts as the main driving force in this series, however I feel that the pace of an episode/movie/whatever moves so much faster when something is wrong with Ran. It kind of makes it more exciting. YMMV hugely here, but I do know quite a number of people who agree with me.

I also don't think that you have to be a Geisha to be acknowledge as a woman in manga. As the previous poster mentioned, Tora Dora and Haruhi are not really Geisha-ish, they do have some of the qualities you've mentioned, like being pretty but that doesn't make them a Geisha. You also gave out quite a list of qualities that are commonly found on people in general. If you use that argument, there wouldn't be any woman left in the world, other than I suppose sociopaths in some movies, that would be considered a woman.

Yuuko from xxxholic is pretty awesome and well liked and not that Geisha-ish.

I now will end abruptly.

[kirite]

I think Ran should be the boss' granddaughter! And then she'll be shocked and never trust the ones she loves again. And Shinichi will be surprised because he always thought she was a normal girl.....If Ran did know she would TRY to protect him, but even without knowing Conan and Shinichi, she is very protective of him anyway, so it wouldn't really shift the story in any way. She still follows him down dark alleyways because she knows Conan disappears a lot....

Lol well I don't think Ran being the boss' granddaughter would change too much xD.  It's not like being a criminal is in your blood or something.  Plus Eri's dad loves Eri and in turn probably loves Ran too.  If he is really the boss of B.O. I'm sure it's something that he'll rather die then let them know.  If it's Kogoro's dad then well...I'm not sure xD.  Though I'm sure he's proud of his troublesome son and wouldn't want to cause trouble for him since he's a "meitantei" (DC's rule of parental cool).  As for trusting the ones she loves, I think unless Kogoro or Eri has been torturing people in their living room when she's in school I don't think she'll do that either xD.  There will probably be some big reason as to why her family is involved in the B.O. anyways, she'll be very angry yes but she still loves her family.  As for Shinichi I think the only difference is that he'll be even more protective of her and keep even more secrets from her because he'll be going against someone she loves and that she has connections to a dangerous criminal organisation.  

Ran:  Conan I'm going to buy groceries!

Conan:  *gives stun gun*  And remember...

Ran:  *twitch*  ...yes yes don't talk to any strangers in black.

She is protective of Conan, however she doesn't know exactly how much trouble he can get into.  It's the difference between an 8 year old troublesome kid who likes to mess with things and a 18 year old who looks for crime organisations.  With Ran knowing he'll also have less trouble solving cases (she won't be on HIS case too much lol).  I agree that she tends to help no matter who it is so it probably won't change too much.

Ran TRYING to save Shinichi is still nothing. She really is not capable of saving him from the BO. She can TRY. But she will be unsuccessful...we know this already. Ran really doesn't have the resources to take down any BO member. Ran has proven ineffective with her fighting....lately when Shinichi is around she becomes the D.I.D....and chances are, instead of "saving" Shinichi, she'll be the one to get kidnapped and put in danger. I think if she had more roles like in that episode where Vermouth was revealed to be Araide-Sensei and she saved Haibara's life, she would be better off.

Well Ran does have the power of deux de machina (like Conan).  However if Gosho does that too much then we'll be expecting her to cover Conan whenever he's in danger.  It'll ruin the "omg they're doomed!" feeling.  The Haibara case was made dramatic because Conan is knocked out, Jodie can't move, we all expected Haibara to die and that we never expected Ran to have the ability to save Haibara nor did we expect her to be there.  Considering this is a story from Conan's POV and Conan doesn't acknowlege that Ran has strength, it'll be kinda weird to have her display it all the time (he's dense but hopefully not that dense).  It's like how Conan knows -logically- that Ran can kick ass but never expects her to and doesn't WANT her to.  

Anyway, yes Shoujo does have very brave girls sometimes, and the boys are so weak. But even in shoujo they are Geisha-like....Geisha isn't always a bad thing, it is just not what every woman is like. Every woman doesn't have to cater to a man and be motherly all the time and be so "innocent and girly." There's nothing wrong with that, but it's just so common in animes that people think it should be the standard for all women. It's a stereotype, and it puts the "different" woman to the back-burner, as if that is not a real woman. This is common in almost every anime. The "Geisha-like" girl gets all the attention and is considered "love material" and is considered a "good woman" when a woman who doesn't act all giddy all the time can be a good woman too. And yet they usually get the "death-roles." Girls like Ayumi and Ran get more attention from guys in the anime than girls like Jodie-Sensei and Haibara. Satou is tough, but she has a sweet, overly justice personality. You either have to be fussy, emotional, pretty, or sweet, innocent, motherly, and protective to be considered a woman at all.

I believe your conception of splitting girls into "geisha" and "alternative" is eroneous.  Firstly I'm still not comfortable of using the term "Geisha" because they're simply entertainer artisians and I don't like to use their name in such a way.  The geishas demeanor is not innocent, girly, giddy, and motherly I assure you.  Traditionally Geishas are highly educated woman.

It's true that not every woman is "geisha like" as you like to put it.  I'll add to that and say not all "geisha like" girls are alike.  All girls are a mix of attributes that you listed, including the "non-geisha" ones.  With that said unless it's parody anime where characters are forced into generic roles for fun and purpose (like humor anime or harem anime) then there are no such thing as a -woman- character.  Being able to cook is a skill and not all girl characters can do that.  Being good with kids is also a skill and not all girl characters can do that.  Being motherly is a character trait and not all anime girl characters have that.      

Isn't Haibara also girly and motherly?  Isn't Jodie also a girl concerned about her friend/partner/love interest?  I don't agree that the boys in the anime pay less attention to Jodie and Haibara.  Mitsuhiko fell hard for Haibara and all the guys (and girls) in school love Jodie-sensei.  Heck guys love awesome girls like them, why do they think they're usually the sexiest ones?  If you find that awesome girls usually have lets dates it's usually a case "main character already has one true love".  As the awesome girl character will usual like the best guy, and the trend is the -best- is usual the main character, this happens a lot =_=.  Another case is "I want her but I can't have her because I'm too much of a noob" syndrome.  Mitsuhiko is like that, he really likes Haibara but knows that compared to Haibara he's too weak and childish.  My brother also said something like that once, he says he can't date chinese girls because they're too strong for him to handle.  You can say it's because Japanese boys prefere weak woman so they can boss them around (which is true) but you an also say Japanese boys are too scared to love strong girls  ;D.  I wouldn't say strong girls are put on the back burner either as to be the strong character they have to have lots of character development.  But maybe we're thinking two different kinds of "strong" so if you give some examples to what you mean it'll be great :3.

As for catering to male interest I believe that's a whole different matter all together and does not have to do with the attributes of a character at all.