Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Iwamoto Yuri]

I think loyal shouldn't be the same as friendship as the actions Lupin already has make the role powerful enough :V

[Conia]

As far as the pawns go... I have a few things to say. For one thing, Akemi never wanted to be in the BO in the first place. She doesn't seem to have ever killed before and was disturbed by the deaths of her colleagues in her case so I don't see why she would kill here.

I would also put Disco under Intimidatory along with Vodka. He certainly seems intimidating. Just look what he did to Haibara. He's also not a pawn in any sense of the word. If he had succeeded in his mission he certainly would have gone on to do other deeds. He was only killed by Gin because he was caught on camera. Pawns are things that are used and discarded... like Akemi. In my opinion if you want pawns in the game, you need to give them something else. Having them disguise is an ability much too powerful for a mere pawn, even in its current limited state.

Steven, hello, welcome to our game of DC Mafia I have a couple of disagreements with your arguments: Akemi, while not a fan of murder, would still commit a crime to achieve her goal of releasing her sister once she knew all the truth behind her and her proyect.

While Vodka can look intimidating, taking a look at Tequila, a taller person with a stern face that even stunned Conan, he seems much suitable for the action of Intimidate. Besides, having more BO roles available in the game makes a bigger roster and helps the BO to confuse the town side. I also don't understand "pawns" having a disguise ability, since all the roles that have this ability are nowhere near pawns in the game itself, quite the opposite in fact, they are all fearful roles to have on your opposing side.

Any other comments are always welcomed!

[Kamite]

Spoiler:

With Scotch and Rum in the story now. What abilities should they received? A counterpart of Kir? Another FBI/CIA role?

[PT]

Spoiler:

They shouldn't be added into mafia at all until after they've at least been mentioned in the anime.

[KangarooGirl]

Okay so after this last round I've spoken to a few people and here are some things that should probably be fixed:
Pisco should have Sabotage back
Makoto should have travel back
CE shouldn't leave a notice
Sonoko should still be able to use her friend's abilities when they're injured. Unless Sonoko herself is injured of course.
Explicitly state in Sherry's and Haibara's role part that they can't be in the same game together like Conan and Shinichi can't
Explicitly state that Detain is 3 phases long inclusive of the phase where they were detained. Eg Detained D2, in jail for N3 and D3 and released so they can act during N4
Specify when release occurs in a phase (should be after everything else?)
Specify whether suspended Satou auto-releases upon suspension (I vote no)
Add a guideline in the rules somewhere on what the BO-town ratio should roughly be. Would definitely help newer GMs. Ftr I tend to use n/3-1 so just under a third. And 1-2 police less than that depending how close to 1/3 it is. Deviations from that is always welcome as long as you make sure each side has a shot to win.

Suggestions:
Akai injures the cop if he's arrested
Akai/Sniper loses revenge/vengeance if they're injured
Add Sera as a third town trickster (gender confusion included!)
Sherry gets ability Experiment which she can test if the ability she found on Research was used by a particular person. Target need not required. Person experimented on gets notification they were followed (still not crimes)
Gin gets choice between Investigate 3 or SI 1. Keep slander the same. That way BO doesn't have to rely on only Bourbon having SI :x
Akemi gets fake and Pisco and Tequila get investigate 1 so they can blend a bit better. Also means Fake can and probably should be taken out of the BS
Sherry should interrogate not BO.
Arrest and detain no longer confiscate APTX. Arresting the aptxing person will cause the aptx to fail but not confiscated. Detain moved down to below aptx on the order of actions.

I think that's all for now. I'll bring more up if/when I remember it :x

[PT]

1) Number of BO: the n/3-1 rule should be a SUGGESTION ONLY. I absolutely do not think we should be able to know exactly how many BO are in a game (obviously excluding Kir's ability and BO/Town lovers). The GM should be able to tweak the numbers as they see fit.

2) I disagree with Detain being below APTX on the order of actions EXCEPT MAYBE in the case of the BO APTXing the Detainer. (Honestly, same for kill, imo.) BO shouldn't be able to know based on whether an APTX went through or not if they're detained.

3) Do we really need three town tricksters?

[KangarooGirl]

While I want to add Sera, I don't particularly want to get rid of Yoko because it gives Vodka cover. That's the only reason for that suggestion.

I also reworded my post to make it more like a guideline which was what I meant. I just really didn't want new GMs that have no idea and put 4v18 :V That really sucked because I was one of the 4.

Detain as it is can feel like a cheap way to stop aptx. I used it this round to win that day vote but not sure if I should've been able to. *shrugs* that's why I put it as a suggestion to see who else felt that way.


Edit:
Oh yeah. Kirby also suggested this as a way to avoid inactivity from ruining balance completely:
If a player BO or town is inactive for either 3 consecutive phases or 4 out of 5 consecutive phases, their role abilities will be randomly given to their auto ally. If no auto ally exists, it will be given to a random player on the same alliance (eg. BO to BO and town to town). That player who receives the abilities will be able to use them but won't be able to be investigated as using them. The original player would.
Auto allies of any sort may not receive anyone's abilities except their own auto-allies. Like DB can't get Okiya's.

For example,
Kamite (Araide) goes inactive. Random chooses Kleene (Eisuke) to receive his abilities. Kleene decides to heal herself and trick PT
Investigate Kamite heal Kleene true
Investigate Kleene heal Kleene false
Investigate Kleene trick PT true

If Kamite is killed, Kleene will lose the ability to use Heal. If Kleene dies and Kamite is still alive, the heal ability will be passed on to the next random player.

In regards to votes I'm at half a mind whether to include that or not :x Discuss!

[PT]

I do think they should be able to keep the APTX capsule if detained (so the APTX would fail, but the count would not drop), but I just don't like the idea of extra things making it obvious Satou is around. :x I feel there are enough ways for the BO to figure out it's her without that.

As for the town trickster dilemma: what if we remove Eisuke in favor or Sera? An age observe would give away the role, but a gender observe would only tell male or female (male might make it obvious from a BO perspective, but female could be either one - and from a town perspective, Sera could be Vodka OR Yoko). Idk, just a suggestion.

Oh and I like the inactivity suggestion. One thing to add though: the person who receives the inactive player's abilities may not mention it ANYWHERE. Not in the thread, not in PM, not in their will. Absolutely against the rules. BO will obviously know which BO got the person's actions, same for lovers, DBs, BFFs, but outside of that, nobody should know. If that were to happen, it would make proving people one way or another way too easy. You cannot prove each other this way. Honestly, I would say if the person who receives them does mention it anywhere, they should be immediately removed from the game and the person's actions should go to someone else. (But I'm mean so.)

[Stopwatch]

I do think they should be able to keep the APTX capsule if detained (so the APTX would fail, but the count would not drop), but I just don't like the idea of extra things making it obvious Satou is around. :x I feel there are enough ways for the BO to figure out it's her without that.

As for the town trickster dilemma: what if we remove Eisuke in favor or Sera? An age observe would give away the role, but a gender observe would only tell male or female (male might make it obvious from a BO perspective, but female could be either one - and from a town perspective, Sera could be Vodka OR Yoko). Idk, just a suggestion.

Oh and I like the inactivity suggestion. One thing to add though: the person who receives the inactive player's abilities may not mention it ANYWHERE. Not in the thread, not in PM, not in their will. Absolutely against the rules. BO will obviously know which BO got the person's actions, same for lovers, DBs, BFFs, but outside of that, nobody should know. If that were to happen, it would make proving people one way or another way too easy. You cannot prove each other this way. Honestly, I would say if the person who receives them does mention it anywhere, they should be immediately removed from the game and the person's actions should go to someone else. (But I'm mean so.)

Getting back the APTX when the person is released? Eri isn't used that often anyway so it wouldn't mean as much. Will read the rest and edit later.

EDIT: Trickster idea is viable, as is the inactivity thing, though maybe we could have other people come in and send in the actions? As in, replacements and then eliminate the original role because if they've been that inactive they're basically not playing anymore anyway. Of course, with that option there'd need to be people available for it so maybe not so viable (unless you use dead Townies with no graveyard knowledge? IDK).

[PT]

We're talking about it not being confiscated at all. They don't lose the APTX. Their count doesn't drop when the person sending the APTX is arrested. It just fails.

I did suggest (privately to only a couple people because I wasn't sure if it was actually viable) having a small (2-3 people) list of non-players that could be stand-ins in case someone goes inactive. The issue with that is if people have time for it, they'll probably want to just play. Plus we'd have to make sure neither the GM nor other players discuss anything with these people at all until they actually stand-in and/or the game ends. It's a lot of work.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Poor Eisuke xD But that's a good idea too.
I kinda wanted the FM rules to be more like MM current rules. So that it won't get too confusing when you join a FM after playing lots of MM. (or the other way round). But Yoko and Sera as tricksters sounds nice too.

Does the auto ally get to know who the one inactive is? Well, it's pretty obvious usually.
But if you don't know who it is, it's not immediately getting to know who's town? Wouldn't that be better?
You would just get a notice like: "Someone is inactive and you got their actions. You can now additionally heal."

@APTX/detain:
How about, when the APTX fails because of arrest, the BO only get's to know the next day whether they lost the APTX because it was a real arrest, or if they get it back because it was a detain?
The BO would still know it's Satou, but the info on that would at least be delayed?

Btw. if Eri released that real arrested person, does the BO get the APTX back?

Idea for Sherry: Got the idea this round
When Sherry uses APTX, it will never fail, even if she's arrested. (but will get confiscated)


Also, there was that idea with the lovers being a separate 3rd group and stuff. How about that?

And an additional idea/concern from me: I kinda don't like how the injure works. Because the town usually tries to get the snipers arrested, while it's harder for the BO to not get accidentally injured by Akai. And the snipers also always have to vote a town when they are about to get lynched, making that town obvious to anyone that he/she is town.
So how about making every injury time-limited? Like, if a sniper get#s arrested, the police will be injured for 2 phases. Any other injury would last for 4 phases?
That way the BO has more strategies to use their snipers when they are about to get lynched?

Also, just noticed:

Vengeance
Not investigatable.
- Role with action: Akai
- Day/Night action, can't be covered
- If Akai gets lynched, he'll kill the person he voted for too.
- If APTXed, Vengeance will fail.
- If APTXed at day, he won't injure the poisoner.
- If Frightened or Discombobulated, Vengeance will fail.
- If killed successfully, he will injure his attacker before he dies. If healed or if the kill gets prevented in any way, he won't injure the attacker.
- An injured BO will lose all of his abilities, and abilities to kill (like sniping). However, he can still regularly kill at night and use items like black suitcase and bow-tie/watch.

Maybe also clarify, that the BO can APTX someone?

[Iwamoto Yuri]

nuuuu, not Eisuke.... D:
Sera is too awesome to be just a trickster XD

[KangarooGirl]

I'm going to work on a centralised rules thread for GMs to use. Of course GMs are still welcome to make changes to the rules as they see fit but they will have to list the differences in their round thread so it's clear. If GMs decide to copy/paste the rules, it is their responsibility to make sure the changes they implement are consistent.

At the moment I'll include all three tricksters in the list for town, up to the GM to remove if they want. Obviously exercise your common sense in how many tricksters you put in

RE: Sherry and APTX always going through, I'm a little hesitant for that to happen because I feel like that could be too strong? Although if we're not implementing Experiment then that could be okay. As she is now, she's kinda like way weaker version of Bourbon :x

RE: injury length, I'd be okay with that. Dunno what others think. It does really suck to randomly pick Akai to kill N1 and be injured the rest of the game (which has happened before albeit not to me) I'll leave it as is for now until more people weigh in on it but I'll change it if more people agree.

Also I think if we just make it so that arresting someone about to aptx doesn't confiscate no matter detain or not it would solve most concerns so I'll just put it that way in the central rules. If there are a lot of objections I'll change it back but yeah, that's probably easier.

For the inactive handing out to balance out the benefit of potentially figuring out who is town straight away I'd agree with stipulating that the person must not tell anyone they've got someone else's actions. If you do get a lead from the actions you get just be creative in announcing it Also GMs should not tell who the actions belonged to before that as well. With auto-allies like BO and lovers it's pretty obvious anyway so :V I'm tempted to say for auto-allies and BO it should be less inactive phases than regular townies but that might make it too complicated :x

[Stopwatch]

Mafia and Lovers basically get the actions of other inactive members anyway at least in my experience. My point is that that could continue on as normal and be to the auto-ally's and GM's discretion with only the auto-allocation being a new thing for Townies. If that makes any sense?

[KangarooGirl]

Post FM fixes
- Disguise no longer says removed through injury
- Anokata's note is reworded a bit clearer to understand hopefully
- Stakeout (action) specifically says that GMs should only reveal keywords of the actions, not what specific action is done
- Order of Actions (night) fixed to remove irrelevant stuff
- Bribe clarification on what happens exactly with tricks/heals

Suggestions
- Remove clause on Kazuha only being able to give herself the charm once.
- Day protect only one person. Being able to protect any number as a BO protector is potentially too strong.
- Add Stalk to Ran/Makoto. Add items as potential stalk result
- Add clause to say may Protect/Stalk per day/night. If choosing protect at night, can still day protect but not stalk? That way it works more like Yamato.
- Add Experiment to Sherry (and add clause may not research the same ability in two consecutive nights?)

Experiment
Not investigatable.
Role with action: Sherry
Day action.
- Sherry experiments on a player to see if they performed the action she researched the previous night
- May not experiment on an action done two nights ago, only the night directly before.
For example, Miyano (Sherry) researches Heal on Night 1. Kirby (Araide) heals PT Night 1. Miyano receives a "True" result for Night 1. Miyano can then Experiment during Day 1. If she Experiments on Kirby, it will be "True". If she experiments on PT, it will be "False". Unless Miyano researches Heal again, she won't be able to Experiment on Heal on later Day phases.