Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Raiden]

I think Agasa should be able to repair his devices if they get destroyed. ^^;

Maybe make it his Night action, so he actually got something to do. ;p

[Kleene Onigiri]

Spoiler:

Night
Arrest
Discombobulation
APTX
Pinch Face
Protect
Lovey-Dovey
Killing
House Search
All other actions
Travel
Release

Bribe should be added here, with it being first on the list... also APTX over Lovey Dovey?
One more doubt: If Anokata frames Shinichi for killing Kobayashi on Night 1:
- Heiji investigating on Night 1 "Shinichi killed Kobayashi" will come out as True.
-Takagi arresting on Night 1 "Shinichi killed Kobayashi on Night 1" will come out as False and takagi will be suspended.
Is this correct? If not, you may want to separate Frame from all other actions.

Frame is supposed to be a tool to get other townies arrested. If you remove the arresting part, you can just remove Frame altogether.

Spoiler:

Day
Arrest
Protection charm
Frighten
APTX
Accompany
Protect
Lovey Dovey
Lynch votes/lynching
All other actions
Travel
Release

Again APTX over Lovey Dovey?

Lovey Dovey is supposed to protect you from any type of killing (Except Bribe, cause it is Bribe) so in the Order of Actions, it should be over APTX, both on Night and Day.

Agreed.

Spoiler: Matsumoto

- Matsumoto gets Investigate 1, just so Sonoko actually gets something cool to do.

I would remove this. The whole disadvantage of being Matsumoto is that he can only Arrest, and arrests aren't showed unless they are successful.

Agreed.
I prefer the version where Matsumoto can only arrest at Night, but won't get suspended.
If Sonoko befriends Matsumoto, you could give her SI 1 that can only investigate on crimes as comparison. But Sonoko won't be able to arrest (but check for a crime).
Or Sonoko just gets bad luck with befirending Matsumoto :x

Spoiler: Bottle

Note: If Yamato gets the bottle, he will break it.
Note: If Eisuke gets the bottle, he will break it.

Want to know why Yamato and Eisuke will break it

I would remove the Bottle completely.

Spoiler: Disguise

Note: KID will be given a random disguise from a role not in the game on Night 1 (Vermouth/Kid may receive the same one).

Why not in the game?

What's wrong with the old ruling?
With the old ruling, there couldn't be the real role around if someone is disguised as that role anyway. Just 2 disguisers as the same role.

Spoiler: Killing Actions

these abilities can be used whether or not the killing is successful.

Wait wait.... so if I use a killing action, and the killing fails... the action still goes through? Killing Actions rely heavily on the target dying, so that HAS be changed...

IMO, killing actions should always go through, even if the killing fails via protect.
Just if he got tricked, the killing and the killing action should fail.
(Similar to Investigate. If you investigate that someone killed someone that was protected, you'd get a "true". If the killer was Tricked, you'd get a "false")

Spoiler: Cloack of Deception

- If he does, all actions taken by Gin that phase (Slander, kill, investigate, bowtie interrogate, BS, etc) will return "false" results if investigated/staked-out by other players for the next 2 phases

Gin: Hey Shadowman, want to ally?
Shadowman: Sure. Can I investigate your action?
Gin: Yeah, let's make a cross-investigation!
*Both send the invesitgation for each other*
*Phase change, Gin killed successfully*
Shadowman: OMG YU LYYYYED ABOUT YUR ACTIONZ, YU BO-ISH! *Lynches Gin*
Gin: D:

Yeah.....
If anything, CoD should show crimes as false, not every action performed by Gin. I'd also like to go back to CoD not having a time limit, but I know most people wouldn't agree

Agree.
I don't like the timelimit either.

Spoiler: Master of Disguise

- On a Night phase where Vermouth attempts to kill somebody, Vermouth may choose to be a "Master of Disguise"

...May? Why make her choose, if there's no reason why she wouldn't use it.... Also there's been problems before with "BO killers not sending their Killing Actions" when they should be like Passive abilities...
If the GM ants to keep them as a choice, please specify that very clearly to all the players (Town and BO)

She shouldn't be able to choose imo. As a little handicap.

Spoiler: Hinder

- All actions used on the hindered player will fail, including a kill (except for Bribe and Korn's Quickshot).

(First, it needs to be edited that Yamamura doesn't have Hinder, and only Tequila has it)

Hinder sounds incredibly overpowered by stopping Killing... I suggest that it doesn't.

If it is for town too, stopping a killing would be ok I guess.
If just BO has it, it doesn't matter.

An idea over Spy List and Deduction list, since they are usually gamebreakers: Make the number of players in them higher, like NumberOfPlayers / 1/2 instead of NumberOfPlayers / 1/3 (Or however it was before).

Making the numbers higher is ok (tho I thought I suggested that ages ago and people said it won't change anything :V)
I also like the idea of choosing the people on the deduction list yourself too tho

Another idea is to remove Yuusaku's Pry, seems overpowered to me that Yuusaku or the Town have Pry.

Yeah, remove pry D:
Or change pry so it doesn't reveal the BO/who's town so much. Dunno how tho.




@Kazuha:
IMO, not every role needs to be able to find a BO on their own. There needs to be roles that are solely to protect others, which are harder to play then of course.

@Yamamura:
I don't like the Yamamura change.
Investigate isn't really the a really efficient way to find a BO. Interrogate is a bit better here.
So giving Yamamura random results for Investigate, which is hard to use anyway, is bad imo.
Just leave the confuse imo

[Conia]

The point of KILLING actions is that it relies on the killing working, that's how they were introduced. It also makes the BO more wary of who to kill, and it gives protectors/healers an additional motivation to use their action correctly.

[pofa]

Since I have a round coming up (and haven't played for a couple of rounds where changes were introduced), I thought I might as well make a long-@$$ post asking for opinions and clarifications about some stuff. :x I've skimmed the rules, but forgive me if I've missed something obvious. Better to miss it now than during the round.

Gin's cloak of deception:

Spoiler:

- Gin may still be arrested for crimes while Cloak of Deception is in effect. Also, House Search will Auto-arrest Gin if he has committed crimes (on previous crimes only), and CE will come back true (if Gin committed crimes before).

Only house search and CE have the clarification that they only work on previous crimes. Just to be clear, I'm assuming Gin can't be arrested for crimes covered by Cloak of Deception, but only for crimes committed previously. Also, I'm not seeing the "three phase" limit; do we want to put that back in? (My opinion is yes.)

Vermouth's Master of Disguise:

Spoiler:

Should she not have a scent on the following day? I know it's not "canon," since Haibara can see through her disguise in the manga, but it might make the killing action more useful than it is now, since that one exception could be crippling for Vermouth, who's having a harder and harder time hiding lately. (My answer: Scent should yield the same result as Vermouth's disguise would the day after she kills.)

Calvados's Longshot:

Spoiler:

I haven't had any experience with this. Just to clarify, the ability kills the target and injures up to one protector who protected the target. Does it also shatter the watch?
Calvados can get arrested even for a false crime while he's using longshot. Will the arresting officer be notified that his original arrest was false, but that he got him on something else?
It says the target will still die even if he/she is protected by Snipe Guard. Does Calvados still get injured by Snipe Guard after the kill?

@the killing actions in general:

Spoiler:

If I understand correctly, other than Pisco and Sherry, all a BO must do is attempt a kill and their killing action will go through, even if the kill ultimately fails because of heal/discombob/ect (with some stipulations, such as with Vodka having to successfully discombobulate). What if the killer is arrested during the phase he or she killed? Technically, he/she still attempted the kill. Does the killing action still go through? For example, what if Tequila uses Insult to Injury on someone and gets arrested in the same phase. Are they still injured? (My answer: No, arrest makes killing actions fail.)

Detect:

Spoiler:

Should it need a target? (Should it be "Akonyl detects Anokata" or just "Akonyl uses detect?") Similarly, should detect show up on stakeouts? (I would say no, as it's a roundabout way of using identify, but if it can be investigated...)

Discombobulation:

Spoiler:

Does it work on passive actions (Vengeance, Betrayal, Revenge)? I'm leaning toward "yes," but it currently says no.

Observe/Stakeout:

Spoiler:

Should we implement the changes we've made in MM? (Age observe and Follow Up)
Age observe: An update to Observe that allows the observer to choose whether to learn their target's age or gender. I'd probably limit it so that if you use it on the same person twice, you'll get the same result as before (so that observers can catch Anokata by observing the same thing twice, but can't learn both the age and gender of any one player).
Follow Up: Day action for stake-outers. They may Special Investigate any one action they picked up on a previous stakeout. For example, if Takagi SO's PT and learns that she was slandered and stolen from, he could Special investigate "pofa steals from PT" and get "true" or "false."
If we do implement this, should Jodie and Camel receive follow-up, or only Takagi and Chiba?

Pry:

Spoiler:

Do we like this as is or should it be changed?

Collect Sample/Experiment

Spoiler:

Since it can't be investigated, I assume that it does NOT show up on stakeout?

Black Suitcase

Spoiler:

Injured BO can still use the Black Suitcase. Does this mean that they can use the abilities set into the black suitcase? (Steal, observe, etc.) I would say yes, since they can also use the bowtie.

Temporary disguise

Spoiler:

What do you guys think about figuring out a way to let Yukiko and Irish also use the day actions of their disguises? :V So maybe when they get Ran/Kazuha/Kobayashi, a police officer, etc., it'd be more useful for them. I wouldn't see a problem with letting them use the day actions of their disguises and then at the "end" of the day phase, take off that disguise and don another disguise to be used the following night and day.

Bowtie/Watch

Spoiler:

Should Agasa be able to use them himself on N1? In that case though, an investigation of "Agasa protects Agasa" would return true. :V

Voice of Accusation

Spoiler:

Are the lynch votes shown? It says it's like Accompany, which does show the votes, but it doesn't specifically say.

Yamamura in general

Spoiler:

Does "reinvestigate" make up for "clumsy?" :V It's a little like Kogoro, but analyzing an interrogation seems more useful than analyzing an investigate, because they're more often fooled. I'm thinking I might like to reintroduce "confuse," as confusing as that was

Uehara in general

Spoiler:

She seems OP'd in one certain situation and under-P'd in every other one. :V I like having another role with detect, but maybe there's some other protective ability we can give her besides safeguard?

Yamato in general

Spoiler:

Is first aid/Investigate good enough for him, or should we give him back detain instead of one of those abilities?

Pinch Face

Spoiler:

Should it be investigated? And show up on stakeouts?

Vengeance

Spoiler:

Does it injure passive abilities (disguise, revenge)

And maybe mention other issues that happened this round? (And in miikosan's.) I don't plan to use the bottle in my round.

[Conia]

Gin's cloak of deception:

Spoiler:

- Gin may still be arrested for crimes while Cloak of Deception is in effect. Also, House Search will Auto-arrest Gin if he has committed crimes (on previous crimes only), and CE will come back true (if Gin committed crimes before).

Only house search and CE have the clarification that they only work on previous crimes. Just to be clear, I'm assuming Gin can't be arrested for crimes covered by Cloak of Deception, but only for crimes committed previously. Also, I'm not seeing the "three phase" limit; do we want to put that back in? (My opinion is yes.)

Exactly, while CoD is on effect, Gin's crimes (crimes that happen on those phases when CoD is on effect) are non-existant. I'd like to remove the time limit too, if possible.

Vermouth's Master of Disguise:

Spoiler:

Should she not have a scent on the following day? I know it's not "canon," since Haibara can see through her disguise in the manga, but it might make the killing action more useful than it is now, since that one exception could be crippling for Vermouth, who's having a harder and harder time hiding lately. (My answer: Scent should yield the same result as Vermouth's disguise would the day after she kills.)

I'd say that she still has a scent even after using MoD.

@the killing actions in general:

Spoiler:

If I understand correctly, other than Pisco and Sherry, all a BO must do is attempt a kill and their killing action will go through, even if the kill ultimately fails because of heal/discombob/ect (with some stipulations, such as with Vodka having to successfully discombobulate). What if the killer is arrested during the phase he or she killed? Technically, he/she still attempted the kill. Does the killing action still go through? For example, what if Tequila uses Insult to Injury on someone and gets arrested in the same phase. Are they still injured? (My answer: No, arrest makes killing actions fail.)

We agreed for last Round that killing actions only go through if the killing is successful.

Detect:

Spoiler:

Should it need a target? (Should it be "Akonyl detects Anokata" or just "Akonyl uses detect?") Similarly, should detect show up on stakeouts? (I would say no, as it's a roundabout way of using identify, but if it can be investigated...)

Investigation-wise, my vote goes for "Akonyl uses Detect". Stakeout-wise, I'd say that it shouldn't show up.

Discombobulation:

Spoiler:

Does it work on passive actions (Vengeance, Betrayal, Revenge)? I'm leaning toward "yes," but it currently says no.

You also have my Yes for it

Observe/Stakeout:

Spoiler:

Should we implement the changes we've made in MM? (Age observe and Follow Up)
Age observe: An update to Observe that allows the observer to choose whether to learn their target's age or gender. I'd probably limit it so that if you use it on the same person twice, you'll get the same result as before (so that observers can catch Anokata by observing the same thing twice, but can't learn both the age and gender of any one player).
Follow Up: Day action for stake-outers. They may Special Investigate any one action they picked up on a previous stakeout. For example, if Takagi SO's PT and learns that she was slandered and stolen from, he could Special investigate "pofa steals from PT" and get "true" or "false."
If we do implement this, should Jodie and Camel receive follow-up, or only Takagi and Chiba?

I'd personally say no to FU and yes to the Observe update, but with a little change: You can't use both Observe on the same person, you have to choose only one, with this it makes you think and consider which Observe would be the most appropiate to use.

Pry:

Spoiler:

Do we like this as is or should it be changed?

For me, it works well as it is ^^

Collect Sample/Experiment

Spoiler:

Since it can't be investigated, I assume that it does NOT show up on stakeout?

That'd be correct.

Black Suitcase

Spoiler:

Injured BO can still use the Black Suitcase. Does this mean that they can use the abilities set into the black suitcase? (Steal, observe, etc.) I would say yes, since they can also use the bowtie.

I guess that they can, but I'm not sure

Temporary disguise

Spoiler:

What do you guys think about figuring out a way to let Yukiko and Irish also use the day actions of their disguises? :V So maybe when they get Ran/Kazuha/Kobayashi, a police officer, etc., it'd be more useful for them. I wouldn't see a problem with letting them use the day actions of their disguises and then at the "end" of the day phase, take off that disguise and don another disguise to be used the following night and day.

Sounds interesting... it also means they can be Face-pinched during Day. I'd say yes to this.

Bowtie/Watch

Spoiler:

Should Agasa be able to use them himself on N1? In that case though, an investigation of "Agasa protects Agasa" would return true. :V

Good question :V Can't really think of a way around it now

Voice of Accusation

Spoiler:

Are the lynch votes shown? It says it's like Accompany, which does show the votes, but it doesn't specifically say.

I'd say show them.

Pinch Face

Spoiler:

Should it be investigated? And show up on stakeouts?

I'd say Yes.

Vengeance

Spoiler:

Does it injure passive abilities (disguise, revenge)

Injured players can still use their passive abilities, IIRC. It should say somewhere in the rules...

[KangarooGirl]

@Agasa: We could make it so that he only has the Bow Tie, not the watch...

@CoD: Still liking the time limit

@FU: I personally think it's good to give Takagi and Chiba. It's not like it'll be super great with so many players in. Stab in the dark really

@BS: I'm gonna say yes as well. Since it's like Bow Tie.

I agree with Conia with everything else

[Mohorovicic]

@Longshot: Whether the charge is correct or incorrect, the officer will be notified of Longshot. Except in the case of Detention.

During conception, it was going to shatter the watch. I'm not sure on this, so anybody can argue both ways.

Calvados does not get injured by Snipe Guard.

@Killing actions: If they can be stopped by stopping the kill, then beef the killing actions. And arrest stops all actions except bribe-kill and Quickshot, so yes, arrest stops killing actions.

@Detect: Likin the "Akonyl detects role". Shouldn't show up on stake-outs.

@Discombobulate: I say sure. Passive abilities can be stopped by discombobulate.

@Follow Up: No.

@Observe: Figure out gender? Pretty harsh with the current volatile APTX. I don't have any problems with the new observe, but in that case, split Observe into two actions, just for clairity sakes.

Potentially, you could give one kind of Observe to one role, and the other kind to another role.

@BS: Since the BS is like the bowtie, they should be able to.

@Temporary disguise: I'm up for allowing Yukiko and Irish to disguise during the day. But how?

@Watch: Yes, on N1, let it show up as "Agasa protects Agasa". On stake-outs, people with the watch should be "protected".

@Yamamura: Yeah, the Yamamura change was my fault.

Although investigations can potentially find a kill, prove a townie beyond doubt, and so on.

@Yamato: 3 investigates is pretty good. If you're gonna give him anything else, lower the investigates.

@Uehara: I hate Safeguard. Remove it, and make her a staple investigating officer with detect. (Like, Investigate 2 or Detect)

Agreeing with Conia on everything else.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Just skimmed through it, sorry :V Gonna read it more clearly later when I'm fully awake xD

But change Yamamura back \o/
If you want to use clumsy, I though it's better to have it with a similar ability like Kogoro. But instead of Interrogate, you could give Yamamura CE and he's clumsy CEing (random result). And with analyze, he can chek it out and get the real result even for blamed actions/slandered CE?
Just another idea. Could be too powerful or people don't like another CEer or CE for Yamamura :V

[Schillok]

Also read through only a part of it.

You need to be careful with day abilities on temporary disguise. In the worst case we have Irish with Kobayashi, Eri, Ran - stopping the lynching during 3 consecutive days and freeing a captured BO member in between. In a game with few players this pretty much means a game over for the town, especially if they lost all of their means to arrest BO.

[Yurikochan]

Gin's CoD: I don't see a problem with or with out a time limit, cause the BO always use Gin and he always has crimes...

FollowUp- I  second Conia's feelings on this being a no. I like and second his observe rule too.

BS: I would say yes to injured players using items, unless you make another item, containing the other parts, but I would think yes since it's like Agasa's items.

Temporary Disguise: Wouldn't hurt to try it, but how would disguising work?

Pinch Face: I would say no to it being investigated or stake out. Since its a unique ability, and only one person has it.

Bowtie and Watch: I saved this one for last, cause I feel the watch should be passive myself and should not be investigatable. One of the reasons being I feel you shouldn't be able to investigate items. So why should the watch be any different? ( bowtie should be investigatable as investigates/interrogates as it is now, since you wouldn't know whether it's the tie or regular actions.

Agasa: Should be able to choose one item or the other night 1.

Deduction List: Do you still get another one if a blamed player is arrested?

Sonoko & Gossip: I really believe it should go back to giving the friend's killer unless they are sniped or killed by Gin. Also gossip shouldn't give a role. :x

[Conia]

Bowtie and Watch: I saved this one for last, cause I feel the watch should be passive myself and should not be investigatable. One of the reasons being I feel you shouldn't be able to investigate items. So why should the watch be any different? ( bowtie should be investigatable as investigates/interrogates as it is now, since you wouldn't know whether it's the tie or regular actions.

I agree with the watch being a passive ability and there not being able to be investigated.

Sonoko & Gossip: I really believe it should go back to giving the friend's killer unless they are sniped or killed by Gin. Also gossip shouldn't give a role. :x

Agreed.

[Stopwatch]

@Agasa's watch: I disagree with you there, Yuriko, how can Agasa blend in or say he's a 'protector' or similar, without his actions being investigatable, especially if he wants to prove himself (even if the object gets to the person it could be an ally or such who agreed to get the person 'protected'. Also, both Town and BO can use it to narrow down his role which... can be useful and I see no reason in getting rid of that.
EDIT: RM'd

[Yurikochan]

@Agasa's watch: I disagree with you there, Yuriko, how can Agasa blend in or say he's a 'protector' or similar, without his actions being investigatable, especially if he wants to prove himself (even if the object gets to the person it could be an ally or such who agreed to get the person 'protected'. Also, both Town and BO can use it to narrow down his role which... can be useful and I see no reason in getting rid of that.
EDIT: RM'd

I like Agasa staying under cover, town doesn't have that many roles of any that are undiscoverable. I didn't know the watch can be investigated and I don't like it as town or BO. :x

[Stopwatch]

@Agasa's watch: I disagree with you there, Yuriko, how can Agasa blend in or say he's a 'protector' or similar, without his actions being investigatable, especially if he wants to prove himself (even if the object gets to the person it could be an ally or such who agreed to get the person 'protected'. Also, both Town and BO can use it to narrow down his role which... can be useful and I see no reason in getting rid of that.
EDIT: RM'd

I like Agasa staying under cover, town doesn't have that many roles of any that are undiscoverable. I didn't know the watch can be investigated and I don't like it as town or BO. :x

This may just be me, but once Vermouth is out of the game, once you prove Agasa you have an utterly proven ally, but not one with an extremely useful role when they're on their own. For example, the game before last I located IU by investigating the five people I had nothing on, protecting Raiden (he had the watch that phase) it's not a game breaker because... as you can see, we still lost the game, but it's something that can be useful to both Town and BO if used correctly and in the right conditions. Also, unless you know the location of the watch, have a small enough amount of suspects for Agasa and enough investigates in the first place you aren't going to achieve anything, the BO would only use up the potential amount of investigates if they were completely sure, in which case they probably deserve to locate him. And even then, there's the small probability the player is just a protector that they'd have to get rid of one way or another. It's certainly achievable by either side, though, so... it can be useful.

[Raiden]

Just a thought here which came to my mind; maybe give Matsumoto leader status (like James has it) and remove his investigate.  =)

Addendum:
I also think Agasa should be able to repair the watch once during a day phase (instead of handing out devices), when/if it breaks due to a successful protect from a sniper.

New Devices for Agasa: -- Agasa is only able to give out two devices per phase.

Bentofax machine: a player with this may send a message to any other player through the GM that night (you may also eat the food within it at the time- if the player is stake-outed while using the fax machine, the SO'er will be notified your eating lunch). It will be a completely worthless ability, much like the bento fax machine itself, but hey at least they'll know you had the fax machine for real. :V -Courtesy of Akonyl, with a slight alteration to include stake-out result. :x

Superkick shoes: Discombobulates the target. (Only children can make use of them; if the player Agasa is given the shoes to that phase isn't a child, he will get them back with a notice they does not fit the recipient/the recipients age (child/teen/adult).)