Movie 6 or Movie 10?

[Dark Ren]

I like 6, but I like 10 better (Conan + Heiji + Kid = Awesome)

[Jd-]

I like 6, but I like 10 better (Conan + Heiji + Kid = Awesome)

I liked 6 more. Namely because originality + depth + unique execution + focused characterization + effective social commentary + brilliant script = a better movie.

[ProfParanoia]

I liked 6 more. Namely because originality + depth + unique execution + focused characterization + effective social commentary + brilliant script = a better movie.

Okay, but why would you like movie 6 then?

[Jd-]

Okay, but why would you like movie 6 then?

Give me three reasons that Movie 10 is genuinely a good movie and not just a fanservice parade with no sensible or engaging elements and I will gladly read another of your posts.

If Movie 10 is honestly that good, three reasons won't be hard to come up with, I don't guess. To start it off, here are three reasons Movie 6 is not just better than the rather atrocious tenth entry but is also one of the better in the series:

1) This movie has a layer of depth that few of the other movies can even begin to approach (for 10, I'm afraid a good script was never on their agenda--they just had some cameos to get out of the way and then forced a "story" around it, though I do feel like I'm insulting the word "story" by including it in the same sentence as Movie 10). The script to Movie 6 has a meaning that everyone can relate to (that is, assuming they actually care about things like story, plot, and pacing instead of pointless cameos). The Hiroki character is very relatable in that he is a "villain" of the piece but not in the usual, dull way (ala Movie 10). Movie 10, especially, never comes close to having characters outside the main cast that you should ever think twice about (do any of you remember those characters' names from M10 without looking? ...Quite the memorable lot, eh? I can name all of them from Movie 6, as that was worth remembering). Not that I'd expect someone defending Movie 10 as better than The Phantom of Baker Street to care about depth of character. After all, Hakuba "appearing" at all is considered gold dust, so I guess that's that.

2) Movie 6 is unique, through and through, and introduces us to territory that would not be possible elsewhere in Conan. Unlike all of the others, this is a very high concept film. Not only is it of such high concept, but it was developed beautifully and gave Conan and company a practical "virtual" reason to visit Victorian London... and not just Victorian London. Even more, it's the Victorian London of Sherlock Holmes. I fully admit my bias at the prospect of that idea, and yet it was executed so wonderfully and with such veneration that I honestly do not see how anyone could dislike it--especially anyone that had any knowledge of the mystery genre prior to seeing Conan for the first time. Movie 6 also didn't indulge in the same way that they did with Movie 10 (you know, that movie where they threw everything but the kitchen sink at the storyboard and hoped it worked). They could have had some strange scene with Holmes & Conan deducing together, but they held back--they knew the better movie lied in Holmes having that minimal involvement, as it invested the story with a power that none of the others could ever match on that front. That sort of restraint was never even considered on Movie 10, as it was a movie for fans that are willing to accept anything so long as they can see a few new frames of Kid flying around and Hakuba being Hakuba. We've established in this paragraph that Movie 6 tried, successfully, to do something completely new. What was new about Movie 10? The release date?

3) Movie 6 is a spectacularly-written movie that is not just a great Conan movie, but a great movie in general. Apart from Movie 10's lackluster and predictable plotting, its mishandling of characters, and the mystery at its centerpiece that not even Solar Pons would bother solving, the movie had no consistent perspective. Movie 6, on the other hand, was built with perspective in mind. The tone of the movie is set from the beginning--it isn't just a lameduck mystery movie, but instead is a movie celebrating what's at the heart of all great mysteries: that sense of wonder and adventure of striving toward an uncertain finale where anything is possible. Movie 6's "reality" murder plot was underwhelming compared to what we get from the other good Conan movies (10 isn't one of them, to remind you), but you know what the best part about that is? Movie 6 was great without ever having to rely on a formulaic mystery at its core. It was a great mystery movie without having to stick so closely to the formula. Movie 10 had no great twists. Its "story" and especially the embarrassing backplots all around were what contributed most to it being the low quality installment that it is. I mean, just look at Kid's reason for being in this movie--or, well, the lack of one. That is, unless you judge the quality of a film from how marketable it is, in which case they really capitalized on the eager and predictable Kid fanbase.

---

"Too long, cannot read this much in one sitting" version: Movie 6 is a great movie, and not just for a Conan one. Movie 10 wishes it could say the same, but is unfortunately relegated to first class on the Fanservice Express.

[Akonyl]

6, although I remember 10 being decent I can't say I remember much of it so it mustn't have left much of an impression at all :V

[dilbertschalter]

improved tl;dr

Movie 10 is terrible and Movie 6 is good:



on a more serious note: i have said this before, but when people watch detective conan movie they expect a mystery. even is the mystery is lame or easily soluble, it drives the action and pushes the plot towards its conclusion. this is a natural way to tell a story and while it doesn't always lead to high quality movies, it usually does lead to fun ones (unless they screw things up by throwing in tons of unrelated garbage as in movie 10). in movie 6, the mystery is just 'there'. it's not driving any action- the murder investigation takes a back seat to saving the children from noah's ark. this is sloppy and lazy.

also, while the climax was great, the falling action was awful. the bit the with train decoupling and going into the wine was not exciting at all and was lame way to finish off an exciting adventure. surely there must have a been a better way to do it than that?

[ProfParanoia]

Okay, but why would you like movie 6 then?

Give me three reasons that Movie 10 is genuinely a good movie and not just a fanservice parade with no sensible or engaging elements and I will gladly read another of your posts.

I don't think movie 10 a good movie though, hence why I opted to Chinatown.

@Paragraph 1 - I'm saying 6 might be fun for some people (I get that) but it's not deep in any way, it's about as deep as the opposite of it Time After Time. I don't see anything special about the character, he's a computer that sees corruption in the world and tired to fix it by force, sure his intentions weren't as malicious as first thought but still. Also, great script is really stretching it: the mystery was just stupid, the main kid of the movie (the rich kid who's name I forgot) doesn't actually learn anything so he's gonna be terrible the rest of his life, several things that range from nit-picky to just really lazy, the dialog was just cheap, ect.

@Paragraph 2 - Being "out there" in comparison isn't "unique" plenty of movies have done the virtual reality game, even with the silly technology of the show "Virtual Reality" is way too far. It's mostly just fan-servicey  too, "See Conan in London at the time of Holmes!" There wasn't any big story to it, it was a so-so kids movie that when mixed with Conan came off as weird. And again, only new for Conan, which was less "original" and just "fan-fictiony".

@Paragraph 3 - No, just no it's not. It was built with perspective in mind, but it was a gimmicky perspective. It was "See Conan in London". If you couldn't guess "Conan and that leader Rich kid are the remaining two" you weren't watching the movie. I hope by "underwhelming" you mean "completely stupid". Formulaic or not (I think it was), not having a solid mystery base is bad when your movie starts with the word "Detective" and ends with "Baker Street". Movie 6's twist is one of those twists that hurt the message. I don't measure movies by that because market is what movie 6 was, flimsy way into 1888. It's Time After Time in reverse.

And again, I don't like movie 10 either.

[Jd-]

@Paragraph 1 - I'm saying 6 might be fun for some people (I get that) but it's not deep in any way, it's about as deep as the opposite of it Time After Time. I don't see anything special about the character, he's a computer that sees corruption in the world and tired to fix it by force, sure his intentions weren't as malicious as first thought but still. Also, great script is really stretching it: the mystery was just stupid, the main kid of the movie (the rich kid who's name I forgot) doesn't actually learn anything so he's gonna be terrible the rest of his life, several things that range from nit-picky to just really lazy, the dialog was just cheap, ect.

@Paragraph 2 - Being "out there" in comparison isn't "unique" plenty of movies have done the virtual reality game, even with the silly technology of the show "Virtual Reality" is way too far. It's mostly just fan-servicey  too, "See Conan in London at the time of Holmes!" There wasn't any big story to it, it was a so-so kids movie that when mixed with Conan came off as weird. And again, only new for Conan, which was less "original" and just "fan-fictiony".

@Paragraph 3 - No, just no it's not. It was built with perspective in mind, but it was a gimmicky perspective. It was "See Conan in London". If you couldn't guess "Conan and that leader Rich kid are the remaining two" you weren't watching the movie. I hope by "underwhelming" you mean "completely stupid". Formulaic or not (I think it was), not having a solid mystery base is bad when your movie starts with the word "Detective" and ends with "Baker Street". Movie 6's twist is one of those twists that hurt the message. I don't measure movies by that because market is what movie 6 was, flimsy way into 1888. It's Time After Time in reverse.

And again, I don't like movie 10 either.

There's actually not really much point in my replying to this, as we're just debating two stances on a movie that can speak for itself. I'm more concerned in talking about Movie 6 vs. Movie 10, but we'll get to that in a bit as, since you decided to reply solely about Movie 6, I suppose I should do you (mostly!) the same courtesy. Starting... now:

It actually is very rich in both content and commentary, but also character. Hiroki also isn't a "computer", by the way. You may need to re-watch the movie (dunno how long it's been since you last watched it). The great script in the film really isn't dependent on just some mystery, as I said in the original post. There's more to a script than the superficial characteristics like the mere appearance of a character--the pacing, dialogue, characters, utilization of the setting, and implementation of the Sherlockia are all top-notch.

If you think Movie 6 is "fan-servicey", I really don't know what to tell you. Conan being in Victorian London is not fan service. Including cameos from random characters solely to lure in viewers at the expense of overall quality is an example of fan service. That is Movie 10, not Movie 6. The film in no way "came off weird" except to those that have little appreciation for what I consider interesting and immersive storytelling. I'll wager to guess you never had too great an interest in classical mysteries (Golden Age'ish) prior to discovering Conan, but that's merely an assumption. If true, it would explain our difference in opinion more than anything.

The means in which the scriptwriter used the fictional universes in the game (there was more than just London, if you'll recall) was great--there have been other "virtual reality" movies and television series, but there have also been other movies with serial killers and other movies with seedy organizations. Minimizing it along those lines does this movie a great disservice and demonstrates a somewhat supercilious point of view, as far as I'm concerned. Movie 6 was definitely an original take because it wasn't just about a virtual reality game (and not just a virtual reality game, but a topical one set in Victorian London)--it was also about the expectations of a generation and the social (and political) implications therein while exploring the disconnect between them. The virtual reality game, as far as the story itself is concerned, was merely a means of exploring all of that; missing that is just missing the point entirely.

Yet, it was built with perspective in mind and a very clear one--one that would have come off as "gimmicky" in the wrong hands, but here did nothing of the sort. There are other mysteries throughout the movie (including a pretty clear nod to Conan Doyle in the course of the Jack the Ripper sequence), but it's the overall journey that makes it a good time. If you just want a Conan movie built entirely on gimmicks and the apparently mandatory "mystery", I highly recommend loading Movie 10 right now. If not having a "mystery" (even though Movie 6 did have them and more than one, with varying levels of success) is the cost for avoiding movies like some of the most recent entries, I'll gladly hop into the virtual reality genre anytime.

I also didn't say that you like Movie 10 like that--I was just saying that, unless it's better than Movie 6, we don't have much to say to one another as it just comes down to personal taste at that point. I shared three reasons why it's far, far worse than Movie 6 and why 6 was a genuinely good movie solely in reply to your post (while you did little to refute the fact that Movie 10 is worse, likely because you, too, know that's the case). Given that you did not like either and had no opinion on the matter, it truthfully doesn't really matter that you disliked Movie 6. For the purposes of this topic, unless you can recommend one over the other, your opinions on Movie 6 alone don't really amount to much. Now, if you suddenly decide that you like Movie 10 more than 6, despite disliking both, and point out reasons why it's better, then we'll have something. Or, if you like 6 more than 10, that's all you have to say, but not being able to choose one or the other comes off as unnecessarily dismissive.

While it's clear we disagree on this particular movie, what I really want to know is which of the Conan movies you do like (assuming you have watched them all by now).

improved tl;dr

Movie 10 is terrible and Movie 6 is good:

Spoiler:

on a more serious note: i have said this before, but when people watch detective conan movie they expect a mystery. even is the mystery is lame or easily soluble, it drives the action and pushes the plot towards its conclusion. this is a natural way to tell a story and while it doesn't always lead to high quality movies, it usually does lead to fun ones (unless they screw things up by throwing in tons of unrelated garbage as in movie 10). in movie 6, the mystery is just 'there'. it's not driving any action- the murder investigation takes a back seat to saving the children from noah's ark. this is sloppy and lazy.

also, while the climax was great, the falling action was awful. the bit the with train decoupling and going into the wine was not exciting at all and was lame way to finish off an exciting adventure. surely there must have a been a better way to do it than that?

Firstly, that image frightens me.

Secondly, yesh, you've said it before and we've gone back and forth on this subject at least five times now. I could probably just go dig up one of my last replies and paste it here, but we've exhausted this subject between us by now. One day, we'll need to do an audio commentary together so that people can get the real play-by-play.

One part we haven't talked about is the ending. I did enjoy the part with the wine, myself, as I really loved the soaked-in-red-wine Conan fan service. It's why I watch these movies, you see!

[dilbertschalter]

improved tl;dr

Movie 10 is terrible and Movie 6 is good:

Spoiler:

on a more serious note: i have said this before, but when people watch detective conan movie they expect a mystery. even is the mystery is lame or easily soluble, it drives the action and pushes the plot towards its conclusion. this is a natural way to tell a story and while it doesn't always lead to high quality movies, it usually does lead to fun ones (unless they screw things up by throwing in tons of unrelated garbage as in movie 10). in movie 6, the mystery is just 'there'. it's not driving any action- the murder investigation takes a back seat to saving the children from noah's ark. this is sloppy and lazy.

also, while the climax was great, the falling action was awful. the bit the with train decoupling and going into the wine was not exciting at all and was lame way to finish off an exciting adventure. surely there must have a been a better way to do it than that?

Firstly, that image frightens me.

Secondly, yesh, you've said it before and we've gone back and forth on this subject at least five times now. I could probably just go dig up one of my last replies and paste it here, but we've exhausted this subject between us by now. One day, we'll need to do an audio commentary together so that people can get the real play-by-play.

One part we haven't talked about is the ending. I did enjoy the part with the wine, myself, as I really loved the soaked-in-red-wine Conan fan service. It's why I watch these movies, you see!

as they say- the thing that has been, it is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

as for the somewhat fresher issue of the ending, i just found the 'shinichi giving up on the decoupling' part to be lame and forced. whatever his flaws, he isn't the type to go "darn, i can't do anything, let's call it a day." he is always depicted as fighting to the very end and giving his all, physically and mentally. the father-son moment, though touching, seemed shoehorned in.

[kkslider5552000]

Too nice Jd. If I had the same opinions of movie 10 (or any opinion I guess) I would go into full Spoony-esque "it sucks and you suck for liking it" mode.

[mangaluva]

Movie 10 is rather reminiscient of a Michael Bay movie; there are scenes which are awesome and characters which are cool, but plot is really an afterthought.

[dilbertschalter]

Too nice Jd. If I had the same opinions of movie 10 (or any opinion I guess) I would go into full Spoony-esque "it sucks and you suck for liking it" mode.

he is saying that though. just with tact.

[Jd-]

Too nice Jd. If I had the same opinions of movie 10 (or any opinion I guess) I would go into full Spoony-esque "it sucks and you suck for liking it" mode.

he is saying that though. just with tact.

All I can say is... No matter how much we all disagree, none of us will ever suck as bad as that movie.

Next stop:

Spoiler:

[ProfParanoia]

There's actually not really much point in my replying to this, as we're just debating two stances on a movie that can speak for itself. I'm more concerned in talking about Movie 6 vs. Movie 10, but we'll get to that in a bit as, since you decided to reply solely about Movie 6, I suppose I should do you (mostly!) the same courtesy. Starting... now:

That's because my stance is forget them, Chinatown is where it's at.

[KaitoKidMagic]

I vote for movie 6. I never seen movie 10, and movie 6 was pretty good.